NEW USER, I'm MUSLIM !
Offline Hey everyone how you doin out there, umm that's right im a muslim 
Don't worry about it i don't have a bomb or anything like that relax. 
All jokes aside, i like to discuss religion and science, because i believe strongly that my religion is verified by science.
I have material in the Quran that talks about astronomy, geology, and biology.
Anything you want to ask (even if it concerns violence) feel free to initiate a debate.
'todangst' invited me here, so let me know watsup people.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline Funny, I don't recall any claims from the Islamic world about a Big Bang Theory prior to the scientific discovery of it. Revealed knowledge is not a valid form of knowledge.
Thats because you never read the Quran.
Reguarding the dense gasseous of the universe:
{ Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... } (Quran, 41:11)
{ Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... } (Quran, 21:30)
This was revealed to us before 632 AD. you just found this out this century!
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline "Koranic teaching still insists that the sun moves around the earth. How can we advance when they teach things like that?"
-Taslima Nasrinwhy dont you provide evidence if you are truthfull?
21.33 wrote:
YUSUFALI: It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
SHAKIR: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.Why do some of these translation try to seperate the sun and moon part from the orbit part? A while back you were saying orbit in any langue is the same and saying this very quote proved the Quran says the earth has an orbit. But this doesn't even talk about the earth. It says the sun and the moon and then talks about orbits. Either the word orbit isn't quite the right word here or its saying the sun and the moon are in an orbit as we use the term today.
you are trying to misunderstand the quote on purpose to make it look unscientific.
The fact of the matter is that it does not say it ORBITS THE EARTH NOR DOES IT SAY THE SUN AND MOON HAVE THE SAME ORBIT.
The Sun and the Moon both do have orbits, the sun is in the orbital trajectory of the solar apex and the moon has an obit around the earth.
try to read it more clearly next time.
YUSUFALI: It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
PICKTHAL: It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
SHAKIR: Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.
This is saying the same kind of thing execpt this is connecting the sun and the moon even more.
overtake
Main Entry: over·take
1 a : to catch up with b : to catch up with and pass by
2 : to come upon suddenly
The sun and moon have their own orbits in the universe. Verse 36:40 clearly establishes the existence of the Sun’s and Moon’s orbit by stating that the sun will not "catch" (Yusaf Ali) or "overtake" (M.H. Shakir) the moon: i.e. the "sun," "moon," "day" and "night" will remain separate phenomenon since the sun and moon travel in their own orbits and hence will never collide. If the sun and moon were not in their own "exact" orbits (55:5), the phenomenon of "day" and "night" would most certainly be affected. The moon orbits around the earth every 29.5 days while it also is orbiting the sun along with the earth. The sun orbits the galaxy; to complete one revolution on its own axis, the galaxy and Sun take roughly 250 million years. The sun travels at roughly 150 miles per second in the completion of this.
18.86YUSUFALI: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
SHAKIR: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
Ok maybe I'm wrong, maybe the sun has a resting place...
Sura 18:86
This verse says that Dhu'l Qurnain reached the place where the sun set. It DOES NOT say that he saw the sun set. In other words, the word "place" indicates a geographical location. The Qur'an does not say the he saw it set in a muddy spring, it says that he "found" it setting in a muddy spring. The term "found" (wagada), and its variants, are found 107 times in the Qur'an and this term never refers to the act of "seeing".
next time learn how to read.
18.90YUSUFALI: Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.
PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom.
SHAKIR: Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It;
You know with this is sounds as though it is just describing travels, but you know it still sounds like to sun has a place where it sets and rises.
if you knew how to critically read, you would understand this is talking about Dhul Qarnain's point of view, key word: "HE FOUND".
I hope you understand how your making a mountain out of a hill.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline Randalllord wrote:I just posted a link about how the idea of Aura or spiritual energy in nonsense. You didn't read it.I never said the body did not have energy, it does. It has to have chemical energy for muscles to work and for metabolism to occur. It doesn't have the spiritual energy you keep refering to!
This is false, there is not strictly chemical energy there is LIFE ENERGY, not to mention thermal energy.
What happens to a baby after 120 days in the womb during development, LIFE IS PRODUCED. This life does not come about from nothing. Law of conservation tells us this: cannot be CREATED or DESTROYED.
Hence the life that you are given will be converted to another life form after you die, which is in complete accordance with religion.
Define life energy. How do you measure it? What unit does it have? And what does that have to do with 120 days, where did you get that?
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Offline This is a bit off topic for now (for the current discussion not the thread.) I don't quite understand what Djinn are. I read the Quaran a few years ago and heard moslems talk about them, but they were never really explained. Even if it has some things correct, that doesn't make the entire book correct - the Hindu religion is correct that the universe is billions of years old, and one of their books has a strikingly accurate description of a nuclear explosion. That doesn't make the religion itself correct. The Bible is much older than the Quaran, so of course it would have more mistakes in science (this probably has a lot to do with why the Moslem world was much more advanced than the Christian world in mideval times.)
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Offline Define life energy. How do you measure it? What unit does it have? And what does that have to do with 120 days, where did you get that?
SI unit of energy, the joule, equals one newton applied through one meter, for example.
Sustenance of life is critically dependent on energy transformations; living organisms survive because of exchange of energy within and without.
The energy required for us to survive is dependent on the food we eat as each Calorie (the type on nuttritional values) is is equivalent to 1 kilocalorie, or about 4.185 kJ (kilojoules).
The food you eat contains energy required to sustain life energy or else you will die from physical starvation and malnutrition.
And 120 days is when the baby recieves life in the womb.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline This is a bit off topic for now (for the current discussion not the thread.) I don't quite understand what Djinn are. I read the Quaran a few years ago and heard moslems talk about them, but they were never really explained. Even if it has some things correct, that doesn't make the entire book correct - the Hindu religion is correct that the universe is billions of years old, and one of their books has a strikingly accurate description of a nuclear explosion. That doesn't make the religion itself correct. The Bible is much older than the Quaran, so of course it would have more mistakes in science (this probably has a lot to do with why the Moslem world was much more advanced than the Christian world in mideval times.)
This will explain jinns:
http://muttaqun.com/jinn.html
or just read surat jinn:
http://muttaqun.com/quran/e/nobe072.htm
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline That explained something else I wondered. I wondered if that was where the idea of "genies" came from.
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Offline Quote:Define life energy. How do you measure it? What unit does it have? And what does that have to do with 120 days, where did you get that?SI unit of energy, the joule, equals one newton applied through one meter, for example.
Sustenance of life is critically dependent on energy transformations; living organisms survive because of exchange of energy within and without.
The energy required for us to survive is dependent on the food we eat as each Calorie (the type on nuttritional values) is is equivalent to 1 kilocalorie, or about 4.185 kJ (kilojoules).
The food you eat contains energy required to sustain life energy or else you will die from physical starvation and malnutrition.
And 120 days is when the baby recieves life in the womb.
All of this is called chemical energy, but earlier you explicitly stated that there also was something called LIFE ENERGY. Chemical energy has absolutely nothing to do with religion. So again, define life energy. And don't bother trying to confuse the issue by stating irrelevant facts again.
Again, where did you get this 120 day "fact"?
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Offline There is convincing evidence, but you are not paying attention, look all around you, this is not a matter of coinsidence. all the billions of stars and millions of species only on this earth. They are all complex organisms, where did they originate from?
Hahaha, you are growing desperate, boy. Your argument holds no water whatsoever: it is impossible to determine design from looking at nature: it is an unfalsifiable proposition. We actually can explain a whole hell of a lot of what goes on in nature. Through the theory of evolution, we learn WHY animals and plants are so diverse. Through physics and chemistry we learn why particles, atoms, molecules, and individual cells and organisms are the way they are. Do not simply give up! You are merely ignorant of all this, but since it seems so daunting, you lose courage. I recommend that you stop with this stupid defeatism and LEARN. Take some biology classes.
There is evidence, but you are not looking.
The only method of obtaining useful knowledge about nature is the scientific method. This is a fact. Science basically builds models of how things work. They are falsifiable, they are verifiable, and they are empirical. Evolution is as empirical as gravity, but instead of applying to all matter, it only applies over large spans of time and to living organisms. The scientific method - that is, empiricism and falsifiability - is the only way you can gain any useful knowledge about nature. It also often takes great leaps of imagination, but unfortunately, not all people possess it, or it is hampered by something else.
Thats funny putting the blame on others for your own ignorance or lack of knowledge, your sounding more and more like president Bush everyday. Blame the democrats.
I have and will continue to refute every argument you bring to the board. So far not a single one of yours has stood up to inquiry: you make claims that are opposed to the opinion of the scientific community, you provide logically and factually fallacious reasoning, and you refuse to budge in your beliefs even one bit.
Then who the else would controll you?
Make a small leap of imagination: the actions we make are inherently going to be influenced by two primary factors: genetics and environment. Free will is thus illusory, because we have no control over genetics or the environment. By the time one is capable of willfully modifying his environment (what you call free will), his entire mental framework of the world will be pre-determined by the two sources that were beyond his control in the formative stages: genetics and environment.
yes you can still execute your will, if that is your intention you will do it if you have the resources to do so.
Your inability to comprehend this rather simple point irritates me. Let's look at God's perspective again, okay? He's sitting there, with what is essentially a 3-dimensional movie (the entirety of his knowledge about the universe) in his head, able to zoom in on any space or time. We are essentially characters in this movie, and since he knows what will happen, that means that we had no real choice but to act as he has foreseen (after all, how often do you watch a movie and the characters decide to do something different than last time??). And these characters happen to think they actually have free will even though all they are effectively doing is acting out a script.
So what I am telling you, reiterated for the third time: God knows exactly how it will happen. He does not have a certain probability of you doing something (since that would imply uncertainty and destroy his omniscience). Therefore when you choose what to eat in the morning, God does not know that there is a 50% chance for you to eat waffles or pancakes. He knows, with complete certainty and accuracy, what you will do. So this means that no free will actually exists, since if we actually had a choice to do something different, God would not be omniscient.
See back to square 1, you INTENDED to kill someone, God did not put a gun to your head and tell you to kill. God has the knowledge that you will do so OUT OF YOUR OWN WILL.UNDERSTAND??
This is contradictory to logic. Free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive, but clearly you cannot grasp this.
if you want to be completly free willed go live in the woods. i hear there are no parents/society/orschool there to influence you there.
Regardless of that, by the time you are of age (let's say 16), most of your psychology will have been determined by your upbringing and genetics. My entire point is that it is impossible to have universal free will: your actions will always be biased because of factors you cannot control.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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Offline God is infinite, and we are finite and absolute, it is not possible for our brain to comprehend God.
What do you mean by "infinite?" And how do you know this? Are you claiming to understand God? WHOOPS! You just refuted your own argument right there: if God is beyond reason then you would not be worshipping him. Beyond reason lies chaos, and chaos is a pretty areligious thing.
First because the images we see, we actually see the effect the rays reaching our eyes form in our brain by being converted into electric signals. When we say we see, we actually observe the electrical signal in our brains.
You exhibit a decent understanding of the nervous system!
Our preception of matter is merley based on impulses and chemical and electrical reactions, if these reactions fail to take place, we cannot see.
Right...
God was never created, He is always there, much like the meaning of the conservation of energy, it cannot be created nor destroyed... meaning it was always there.
So what does the rest of your post have to do with this? Also, "infinite" in what sense? You keep using that word but fail to define it. What does it mean? Does it mean he is beyond reason and logic? If so, it must be possible for God to exist and to not exist at the same time. So, are you really so willing to admit he is beyond reason? Because without logic all you have is chaos.
Same with the universe, but God is independent of the universe and is not restricted by it such as we are.
Then where is he? What is he? See, you proclaim with great veracity that he exists. Yet if he is beyond reason, and independent of the universe, how can you know that? Any claim about something that is beyond reason is nonsensical.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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Offline you skipped the part HOW the first organism came about.how life first came about on earth.
As of right now, we have a pretty good idea: abiogenesis. We just don't know the exact mechanisms yet. And even if we did not, no answer is better than a wrong answer, which you undoubtedly would propose. Abiogenesis fits in with the rest of science: it makes sense in chemical, and biological terms. God does not.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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Offline I never said the body did not have energy, it does. It has to have chemical energy for muscles to work and for metabolism to occur. It doesn't have the spiritual energy you keep refering to!This is false, there is not strictly chemical energy there is LIFE ENERGY, not to mention thermal energy.
What happens to a baby after 120 days in the womb during development, LIFE IS PRODUCED. This life does not come about from nothing. Law of conservation tells us this: cannot be CREATED or DESTROYED.
Hence the life that you are given will be converted to another life form after you die, which is in complete accordance with religion.
Link me to the wikipedia article on life energy, please. 
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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Offline Genies?
From one of the links you sent:
*Notice the similar sound between jinni and english's "genie". TV and other media have twisted the concept of jinn; however, it is interesting to note its origin is from Islam. "I Dream of Jeannie" is a TV show based around a Genie (jinni, plural of jinn). In this show, Jeannie, the genie, frequently was given a request and the requestor never quite got what was requested as she was always creating unintentional mischief. However we understand that the shaitan among the jinn antagonize humans, not that they are kind beings who accidentally mess up on occasion. Those who seek aid (such as asking for favors or making request) from the jinni will find deception and a twisted type of aid that doesn't really meet the requestor's original request, but that satisfies the shaytaanic jinn's desire for evil.
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Offline Genies?
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Offline I've always preferred Efreeti:
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Offline you are trying to misunderstand the quote on purpose to make it look unscientific.
Misunderstanding is not something a person tries to do. You can say I am misunderstand and try to explain it to me, but to say I am doing it on purpose is ignorant. You are suggesting I am being dishonest for my own gain. I find this to be an insult please don't do it again. I do not tell people they are lying to me so I do not take this accusation myself.
The fact of the matter is that it does not say it ORBITS THE EARTH NOR DOES IT SAY THE SUN AND MOON HAVE THE SAME ORBIT.The Sun and the Moon both do have orbits, the sun is in the orbital trajectory of the solar apex and the moon has an obit around the earth.
The moon orbits the earth right? Why do the writers tend to talk about the moon when they talk about the sun? And why do you now say it only talks about orbits?
Try to read it more clearly next time.
I did its talking about orbits, its connecting the ideas of the moon, the sun, and orbits.
Main Entry: overtake
1 a : to catch up with b : to catch up with and pass by
2 : to come upon suddenlyThe sun and moon have their own orbits in the universe. Verse 36:40 clearly establishes the existence of the Sun’s and Moon’s orbit by stating that the sun will not "catch" (Yusaf Ali) or "overtake" (M.H. Shakir) the moon: i.e. the "sun," "moon," "day" and "night" will remain separate phenomenon since the sun and moon travel in their own orbits and hence will never collide. If the sun and moon were not in their own "exact" orbits (55:5), the phenomenon of "day" and "night" would most certainly be affected. The moon orbits around the earth every 29.5 days while it also is orbiting the sun along with the earth. The sun orbits the galaxy; to complete one revolution on its own axis, the galaxy and Sun take roughly 250 million years. The sun travels at roughly 150 miles per second in the completion of this.
If that is what they are saying could they just say the moon and the sun have different orbits? Why would they just say the moon and the sun appear at different times? Btw things in separate orbits can collide if they are in the same orbit they just need to be moving at different speeds.
Sura 18:86This verse says that Dhu'l Qurnain reached the place where the sun set. It DOES NOT say that he saw the sun set. In other words, the word "place" indicates a geographical location. The Qur'an does not say the he saw it set in a muddy spring, it says that he "found" it setting in a muddy spring. The term "found" (wagada), and its variants, are found 107 times in the Qur'an and this term never refers to the act of "seeing".
And I was saying with the next part, adding context, it sounds like he is talking of travels, but here is an argument over grammar. Is he saying, "I saw it set in the mud" or is he saying, "While in a muddy place I saw it set"? And to say the word mean a place doesn't really prove much. In both of our cases we are saying a place is involved. Also saying that he is seeing something doesn't prove anything either as we are both talking about seeing something. This is about grammar and if a person uses the wrong kind they'll say something other then what they really mean.
next time learn how to read.
Now I don't know how to read? wow man you are starting to cross lines here.
if you knew how to critically read, you would understand this is talking about Dhul Qarnain's point of view, key word: "HE FOUND".
I do know how to critically read you don't really think I just said all this books are bullshit without picking them up first do you? The key is in grammar not just the words.
I hope you understand how your making a mountain out of a hill.
And I hope you understand that saying I'm must not be reading it right if I find it to be wrong is bullshit.
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Offline So what does the rest of your post have to do with this? Also, "infinite" in what sense? You keep using that word but fail to define it. What does it mean? Does it mean he is beyond reason and logic? If so, it must be possible for God to exist and to not exist at the same time. So, are you really so willing to admit he is beyond reason? Because without logic all you have is chaos.
he is not finitly restricted to certain dimensions like us, we are the creation and there is limitations to what he can do.
Infinite in the sense he cannot be restricted to something we can see. It is impossible for us to see Him.
Nothing exists and not exists at the same time, God exists all the time, and this time dimension we are using was created with the big bang hence he is independent of it.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline As of right now, we have a pretty good idea: abiogenesis. We just don't know the exact mechanisms yet. And even if we did not, no answer is better than a wrong answer, which you undoubtedly would propose. Abiogenesis fits in with the rest of science: it makes sense in chemical, and biological terms. God does not.
pretty good idea, or pretty vague and fuzzy idea?
Let me tell you know, that it is impossible for you or any scientist for that matter to CREATE life. the closest you may come would be to create life would be cloning (Even in that case you still didnt create life, just replecated it)
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Genies?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie
ohh i see, genie is the english translation for jinn.
jinns are not like the genie you saw on tv, that girl making wishes for her servant or aladin genie. They dont make wishes.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline
Misunderstanding is not something a person tries to do. You can say I am misunderstand and try to explain it to me, but to say I am doing it on purpose is ignorant. You are suggesting I am being dishonest for my own gain. I find this to be an insult please don't do it again. I do not tell people they are lying to me so I do not take this accusation myself.
Sorry but it seemed you didnt read the quotes before you posted them.
Ok, but do you understand how the verse is actually interpreted now that i explained it?
The moon orbits the earth right? Why do the writers tend to talk about the moon when they talk about the sun? And why do you now say it only talks about orbits?
Yes the moon orbits the earth. They tend to talk about both because they both have orbits. And it is symbolic the same verse discusses the day and night and the sun and moon, therefore displaying a contrast between them.
Even though they are in the same verse, does not mean they are in the same orbit.
And I was saying with the next part, adding context, it sounds like he is talking of travels, but here is an argument over grammar. Is he saying, "I saw it set in the mud" or is he saying, "While in a muddy place I saw it set"? And to say the word mean a place doesn't really prove much. In both of our cases we are saying a place is involved. Also saying that he is seeing something doesn't prove anything either as we are both talking about seeing something. This is about grammar and if a person uses the wrong kind they'll say something other then what they really mean.
I hope you understand now the sun setting in a muddy spring is only from Dhul Qarnian's point of view and not reality.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline Where does it say what the Sun orbits? Where is the reference to the solar apex?
Looking at those differing translations was interesting. The celestial sphere concept comes straight from Aristotle, before both christianity and islam, and it has the Sun orbiting the Earth in its own celestial sphere. Why should we believe that the author of the quran meant anything but that which was the accepted world view at the time? And besides, the orbits aren't circular, they're elliptical.
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Offline he is not finitly restricted to certain dimensions like us, we are the creation and there is limitations to what he can do.Infinite in the sense he cannot be restricted to something we can see. It is impossible for us to see Him.
Nothing exists and not exists at the same time, God exists all the time, and this time dimension we are using was created with the big bang hence he is independent of it.
Within this post, you have just affirmed that God is constrained by logical laws. Good. This means that we can discuss claims about God in a logical fashion. This means we must question his properties: after all, if they are illogical, they are impossible, just like him existing and not existing at the same time. This might seem absurd, but you have to realize: as soon as you say something is not fully constrained by logic, you have given up any chance of understanding it because it will simply not make any sense.
Since you have already established that God is constrained by logical laws, we should begin to question claims you make about him in a logical manner. Furthermore, why do you claim that it is impossible to see him? And why is it that someone who would torture you for eternity for not worshipping him refuses to give the only convincing evidence one needs to believe in him: a personal visit every few years or something?
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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Offline Sorry but it seemed you didnt read the quotes before you posted them.
I do read before I post things, but I find it interesting that you always say I must have not read it or didn't read it right if you don't like my position.
Ok, but do you understand how the verse is actually interpreted now that i explained it?
I understand how you interpret it, but like most people here I don't need someone to interpret things for me.
Yes the moon orbits the earth. They tend to talk about both because they both have orbits. And it is symbolic the same verse discusses the day and night and the sun and moon, therefore displaying a contrast between them.
Symbolic? How can it be symbolic if you were telling me it was scientific before?
Even though they are in the same verse, does not mean they are in the same orbit.
Do they talk about these orbits separately? Or even the earths relation in all this? Before you said it didn't but isn't that kind of important for the understanding of the orbits?
I hope you understand now the sun setting in a muddy spring is only from Dhul Qarnian's point of view and not reality.
Are you saying the Quran is just telling us what the man is seeing so it doesn't count?
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Offline if you think there is no God, then just kill yourself.
you have nothing to lose if you are correct.
[the fact is that you do not want to die because you know there is God waiting for you on the other end]
I love the whole 'living' thing. I have MS (Multiple Sclerosis) and spend half of my time in a wheelchair. And life is still wonderful. Sure, when this all happened, did I think of checking out? Yep. Funny thing is, it was my Atheism that helped keep me alive. Simple realization. This is it. I'm too much of an actor for the final curtain call. If I thought there was a Heaven, a place whefe the pain I live through daily was gone, and I could see my daughter and first love (killed in a car accident), THAT would be a reason for suicide. It's no wonder that the 'rules' tend to state suicide is a sin.. otherwise the faithful would use churches/mosques/synagouges for mass Jim Jones-style bump-off parties.
So, it's not a FACT that I do not want to die because I know there is a god waiting for me on the other end. I do not want to die because when it's done, it's done. I have a lot to do.. making the world a better place for people, both with my illness, and in general. While it might, to you, be a TRUTH, it's not a FACT. Truth is subjective, and shaded by assumption and belief. One's Truth might be that the only reason we cannot fly is not enough people believe we can (consentual reality). The Fact is we cannot fly because even if we had wings, they'd need to be close to 60 feet wide and the back muscles would have to be positively ectomorphic. Not to mention the calories needed for such a feat and the changes we'd need (hollow steel strength bones, etc). And as for something like telekinesis.. while it would be cool to all fly like X-Men, the will of the people keeping us earth-bound has not a shred of evidence. Superman comics don't count.
"Imperious, choleric, irascible, extreme in everything, with a dissolute imagination the like of which has never been seen, atheistic to the point of fanaticism, there you have me in a nutshell.... Kill me again or take me as I am, for I shall not change.
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Offline Where does it say what the Sun orbits? Where is the reference to the solar apex?Looking at those differing translations was interesting. The celestial sphere concept comes straight from Aristotle, before both christianity and islam, and it has the Sun orbiting the Earth in its own celestial sphere. Why should we believe that the author of the quran meant anything but that which was the accepted world view at the time? And besides, the orbits aren't circular, they're elliptical.
That's true the celestial sphere concept came before Islam, but the origin of the universe did NOT. How do you explain that?
Second of all it did not say circular orbits, it says "each swimming in an orbit".
Third of all, you understand that the author of the quran was an illiterate, meaning he doesn't know how to read. How you think an illiterate can come up with this type of information in the most backwards arab tribal culture in the world at the time?
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline Within this post, you have just affirmed that God is constrained by logical laws. Good. This means that we can discuss claims about God in a logical fashion. This means we must question his properties: after all, if they are illogical, they are impossible, just like him existing and not existing at the same time. This might seem absurd, but you have to realize: as soon as you say something is not fully constrained by logic, you have given up any chance of understanding it because it will simply not make any sense.Since you have already established that God is constrained by logical laws, we should begin to question claims you make about him in a logical manner. Furthermore, why do you claim that it is impossible to see him? And why is it that someone who would torture you for eternity for not worshipping him refuses to give the only convincing evidence one needs to believe in him: a personal visit every few years or something?
First of all, He is of a different nature than humans and his creation. We cannot see him because of this.
Second of all, you don't have to see something to believe it. If you hear the news from one of your colleges you might believe it but then verify it by checking the newspaper.
Hence the same thing with religion, if someone tells you there is a God, you should check all the religious books and come to your own conclusion. Do not just refuse to look and then complain when you are punished, you have a brain and resources, use them.
Third of all, what type of test would it be for all mankind to have a "personal visit." In Islam, and probably some other religions, the whole point of us being here is a test. You just want to cheat so you can get a free pass to heaven, well sorry but you have to study and prepare.
Also If God wanted to he could have gave everyone guidance:
Quran 32:12-13
12. And if you only could see when the Mujrimûn (criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners, etc.) shall hang their heads before their Lord (saying): "Our Lord! We have now seen and heard, so send us back (to the world), we will do righteous good deeds. Verily! We now believe with certainty."
13. And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me took effect (about evildoers), that I will fill Hell with jinn and mankind together.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline KSMB wrote:Where does it say what the Sun orbits? Where is the reference to the solar apex?Looking at those differing translations was interesting. The celestial sphere concept comes straight from Aristotle, before both christianity and islam, and it has the Sun orbiting the Earth in its own celestial sphere. Why should we believe that the author of the quran meant anything but that which was the accepted world view at the time? And besides, the orbits aren't circular, they're elliptical.
That's true the celestial sphere concept came before Islam, but the origin of the universe did NOT. How do you explain that?
We are not discussing the origin of the universe, we are discussing the orbits of celestial objects. Stop throwing in random statements and address my point would you? Furthermore, I am not the one claiming that the quran agrees with science, you are. You're the one that needs to explain things.
Second of all it did not say circular orbits, it says "each swimming in an orbit".
Again, orbits at this time meant circular orbits around the earth. Both of which are incorrect. Give me reasons why I should think the quran author means something different from that.
Third of all, you understand that the author of the quran was an illiterate, meaning he doesn't know how to read. How you think an illiterate can come up with this type of information in the most backwards arab tribal culture in the world at the time?
Just because you're illiterate, doesn't mean you're stupid. How they came up with this idea is quite easy, they took it from the greeks. Besides, that is completely beside the point. The question is what the quran says, and it says nothing that isn't in agreement with the accepted but incorrect world view at the time it was written.
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Offline Hence the same thing with religion, if someone tells you there is a God, you should check all the religious books and come to your own conclusion. Do not just refuse to look and then complain when you are punished, you have a brain and resources, use them.
Many people have told me there is a god. And I have read passages from their holy books. And then I compare the information contained therein with what we actually know about nature through science. We know that populations evolve. We know general relativity. We know quantum mechanics. Your holy books offer nothing but codes to live by that have been obsolete for hundreds of years. So really, your god is at fault here for providing shitty evidence. Innocent until proven guilty? Nonexistent until proven existent. Your god is still nonexistent as far as this jury's concerned. Not my fault the only evidence you have is an unverifiable text written thousands of years ago that I cannot relate to in any way.
You know, you might be a Muslim, but I have had this exact same argument with many Christians. Although I think both of you are completely and utterly wrong, assuming you had convinced me - how would I know which religion to choose? The arguments for worshipping god, free will, and salvation are just about the same.
Furthermore, we have already established that if god is omniscient, there is no free will. So anything I do now is merely fulfilling god's plan. So I have no real choice in the matter - I only think I have a choice.
Also, eternal suffering for finite crimes is infinitely unjust. When I get a traffic ticket, I get traffic school. But god doesn't send me to Islam-school when I do something blasphemous. The DMV is real, god is not.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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Offline Many people have told me there is a god. And I have read passages from their holy books. And then I compare the information contained therein with what we actually know about nature through science. We know that populations evolve. We know general relativity. We know quantum mechanics. Your holy books offer nothing but codes to live by that have been obsolete for hundreds of years. So really, your god is at fault here for providing shitty evidence. Innocent until proven guilty? Nonexistent until proven existent. Your god is still nonexistent as far as this jury's concerned. Not my fault the only evidence you have is an unverifiable text written thousands of years ago that I cannot relate to in any way.
Most of the stuff you know now is a result, directly or indirectly of the Quran. When the Quran was revealed there were many profounding explorations in all fields of science. The Quran helped transformed the nomadic supersticious arabs into a united group of explorers who contributed greatly to science, math, and technology.
The science you have now is a result of the great awakening/Renaissance which experienced its first influence from the MUSLIMS in Spain (formerly called Al-Andalous). They were the ones that helped prompt you Europeans and Americans to where you are now. Its in the history books.
You know, you might be a Muslim, but I have had this exact same argument with many Christians. Although I think both of you are completely and utterly wrong, assuming you had convinced me - how would I know which religion to choose? The arguments for worshipping god, free will, and salvation are just about the same.
How would you know which religion to chose? use your logic. Humans cannot be God, because God cannot die. God does not punish people for OTHER people's actions/sins. It would not make sense for there to be more than one God.
Actually salvation in Islam is based on repentence. If you commit a sin, you can repent. If you do not, God has the authority to punish you or chose to forgive you. God is Merciful.
Free will you are right, i am wrong, My bad. I just read an article about predestination.
here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
Furthermore, we have already established that if god is omniscient, there is no free will. So anything I do now is merely fulfilling god's plan. So I have no real choice in the matter - I only think I have a choice.
Yes, but God guides those who are righteous and seek truth, those that do not seek them will not believe in Him.
Also, eternal suffering for finite crimes is infinitely unjust. When I get a traffic ticket, I get traffic school. But god doesn't send me to Islam-school when I do something blasphemous. The DMV is real, god is not.
Finite crimes? So you think God should punish all humans for a couple of days and poof throw them all in paradise?
In that case you want people like Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Lenin, and all kinds of shit heads to go to paradise.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline Most of the stuff you know now is a result, directly or indirectly of the Quran.
I guess the Greeks and romans were full of shit then...
When the Quran was revealed there were many profounding explorations in all fields of science. The Quran helped transformed the nomadic supersticious arabs into a united group of explorers who contributed greatly to science, math, and technology.
I disagree with the idea of anything being revealed, but I won't deny arab's contributions to science.
The science you have now is a result of the great awakening/Renaissance which experienced its first influence from the MUSLIMS in Spain (formerly called Al-Andalous). They were the ones that helped prompt you Europeans and Americans to where you are now. Its in the history books.
All of science is results of the great awakenings all over the world and through time. The Muslims preserved a lot of the Greek ideas during the dark ages, but to claim all of science is from Muslims is absurd. You do know that by preserving the Greek ideas they also helped establish atheism right? No not the philosophers in a big sense, but when Europeans saw this ideas working they then started looking into the Greeks again.
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Offline I guess the Greeks and romans were full of shit then...
nobody said they were.
I disagree with the idea of anything being revealed, but I won't deny arab's contributions to science.
They were supersticious nomads traveling the desert for water and engaged in bloody tribal wars.
When they recieved the Quran from an illiterate man, they united and became one of the most significant forces of military and scientific might in the world.
All of science is results of the great awakenings all over the world and through time. The Muslims preserved a lot of the Greek ideas during the dark ages, but to claim all of science is from Muslims is absurd. You do know that by preserving the Greek ideas they also helped establish atheism right? No not the philosophers in a big sense, but when Europeans saw this ideas working they then started looking into the Greeks again.
I never claimed scientific contributions ONLY to Muslims, the greeks accomplished the same (but they mostly did not have the instruments to test out some theories). Some of the contributions of muslims were greek theories put to the test, and some mathematical and other discoveries.
I'm sure the Europeans did look to the Greeks for philosophical and other ideas.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline So what do we know directly from the Quran?
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Offline So what do we know directly from the Quran?
An example of the Water Cycle is given in the Qur'an:
Quran 23:18.
{ And We sent down from the sky water (rain) in (due) measure, and We gave it lodging in the earth, and verily, We are Able to take it away. }
The first idea of the Big Bang Theory:
Quran 21:30
{ Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... }
Expanding of the Universe:
Quran 51:47
{ With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof. }
A similie to oceanography:
Quran, 24:40
{ Or (the unbelievers’ state) is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darknesses, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it.... }
There are more.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline Then I have always existed too and will always exist.
That is exactly the point i am trying to make, you have existed and will exist but will be Judged in the Afterlife and you will be sentenced according to your actions on this earth.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline Define life energy. How do you measure it? What unit does it have?
Energy is defined as "mathematically defined as a work done by a certain force "
Do you do work? YOUR WHOLE LIFE DEPENDENCY IS ON DOING WORK.
The SI unit of energy, the joule, equals one newton applied through one meter, for example:
kg·m²/s² = N·m
Hence do you see the time dependent variable?
[it is denoted as 's' for seconds]
As you see it is a time dependent variable, namely just as we are and our energy is also calculated through time.
We use our energy to apply WORK or a FORCE on other objects.
Hence we do have ENERGY, and not only 'chemical'.
What happens to this ENERGY after we die?
The conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy (often expressed as the sum of kinetic energy and potential energy) in an isolated system remains constant. In other words, energy can be converted from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.
In modern physics, all forms of energy exhibit mass and all mass is a form of energy.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline An example of the Water Cycle is given in the Qur'an:Quran 23:18.
{ And We sent down from the sky water (rain) in (due) measure, and We gave it lodging in the earth, and verily, We are Able to take it away. }
Aristotle and you tried this before...
The first idea of the Big Bang Theory:Quran 21:30
{ Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... }Expanding of the Universe:
Quran 51:47
{ With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof. }
Interesting this guy has a reply though
http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/bigbang.html
A similie to oceanography:Quran, 24:40
{ Or (the unbelievers’ state) is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darknesses, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it.... }
Greeks where looking at the oceans and I don't really think its that hard to figure out it is dark in deep sea. And again you tried using this already.
There are more.
I'd hope so if you are convinced that the Quran gave us new knowledge.
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Offline We use our energy to apply WORK or a FORCE on other objects.Hence we do have ENERGY, and not only 'chemical'.
You might want to restate this it sounds like you are saying our muscles are somehow not chemical.
What happens to this ENERGY after we die?
If you mean electrical or potential then I'm think it disperses like heat or static electricity does.
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Offline
An example of the Water Cycle is given in the Qur'an:Quran 23:18.
{ And We sent down from the sky water (rain) in (due) measure, and We gave it lodging in the earth, and verily, We are Able to take it away. }Aristotle and you tried this before...
Why dont you provide evidence that Aristotle recorded the water cycle, i.e. the earth pours rain, and evaporates, and cycle continues.
The first idea of the Big Bang Theory:Quran 21:30
{ Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... }
Let's talk about each one seperatly provide physical evidence that the phenomenon of Big Bang was available before 7th century AD.
That the universe and earth were all one connected entity.
and your website interpreted the verse as saying that the earth was in existence before the big bang. This is not the actual meaning of the verse, it says:
Quran 21:30.
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as ONE UNITED PIECE, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
This implies that the origin of the earth and heaveans (reference to the universe) were ONE UNITED PIECE. Hence the earth came about from this ONE UNITED PIECE.
Furthermore, this non-credible site does not site any scientific evidence of the Big Bang BEFORE the Quran, it just attempts to answer the question with stupid myths and assumptions for example: What this is a reference to is not clear (though it does seem to be quite similar to numerous other creation myths that have the heavens and earth being separated by various deities, such as Kronos, Vishnu, Pan Gu, et cetera
silly attempt.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline Energy is defined as "mathematically defined as a work done by a certain force "Do you do work? YOUR WHOLE LIFE DEPENDENCY IS ON DOING WORK.
The SI unit of energy, the joule, equals one newton applied through one meter, for example:
kg·m²/s² = N·m
Hence do you see the time dependent variable?
[it is denoted as 's' for seconds]As you see it is a time dependent variable, namely just as we are and our energy is also calculated through time.
We use our energy to apply WORK or a FORCE on other objects.
Hence we do have ENERGY, and not only 'chemical'.
What happens to this ENERGY after we die?
The conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy (often expressed as the sum of kinetic energy and potential energy) in an isolated system remains constant. In other words, energy can be converted from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.
In modern physics, all forms of energy exhibit mass and all mass is a form of energy.
Actually, all the energy that is used in your body is stored in ATP molecules, as well as sugars and fats. When you die, your body stops metabolizing, and this energy is no longer used for anything. It remains stored as chemical energy.
Once again, you are stating your own interpretation which is flat out wrong.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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Offline
You might want to restate this it sounds like you are saying our muscles are somehow not chemical.
Excuse me mr. physics major, but i don't think the human body is composed solely of chemical energy. There are thermal energy and energy required for us to produce force.
Before you even eat food, you have energy to eat it in order to burn it chemically and produce temporary energy from it.
What happens to this ENERGY after we die?If you mean electrical or potential then I'm think it disperses like heat or static electricity does.
you think it disperses like 'heat' or 'static electricity', a theory based on a house of cards.
If it were that easy to create life from 'heat' or 'static electricity' i think we wouldve done it by now, don't you?
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline Why dont you provide evidence that Aristotle recorded the water cycle, i.e. the earth pours rain, and evaporates, and cycle continues.
ok
So the moisture is always raised by the heat and descends to the earth again when it gets cold. These processes and, in some cases, their varieties are distinguished by special names. When the water falls in small drops it is called a drizzle; when the drops are larger it is rain.
That is a small section of text I got here -> http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.mb.txt
Let's talk about each one seperatly provide physical evidence that the phenomenon of Big Bang was available before 7th century AD.That the universe and earth were all one connected entity.
That is an odd statement as the earth is a part of the universe...
and your website interpreted the verse as saying that the earth was in existence before the big bang. This is not the actual meaning of the verse
I don't know why you have a habit of telling people they are reading things wrong...
it says:Quran 21:30.
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as ONE UNITED PIECE, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?This implies that the origin of the earth and heaveans (reference to the universe) were ONE UNITED PIECE. Hence the earth came about from this ONE UNITED PIECE.
This article also points out how this creation story isn't that original and you admit the article says this, although you say the idea of the big bang.
Furthermore, this non-credible site does not site any scientific evidence of the Big Bang BEFORE the Quran, it just attempts to answer the question with stupid myths and assumptions for example: What this is a reference to is not clear (though it does seem to be quite similar to numerous other creation myths that have the heavens and earth being separated by various deities, such as Kronos, Vishnu, Pan Gu, et cetera
You know I don't think it is saying there was any (big bang) it is just saying it is a story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_belief That even talks about how the story is a common theme through out older religions
silly attempt.
I think some of your arguments are kind of silly too.
Excuse me mr. physics major, but i don't think the human body is composed solely of chemical energy. There are thermal energy and energy required for us to produce force.
Oh I'm not majoring in physics, but even if I was it wouldn't mean I would be an authority on this subject.
From what I have learned of the human body Insidium Profundis is right on target. However I would like to know how we store heat and "energy required for us to produce force" if it isn't chemical.
Before you even eat food, you have energy to eat it in order to burn it chemically and produce temporary energy from it.
If we spent more energy making energy we would die end of story...
Wait does that really say that? "you have energy to eat it in order to burn it chemically and produce temporary energy from it." Ok you're saying we have energy before we eat well yeah from the last meal and the meal before that. And when you are born you get energy from your mother like she did. What it works down do is that organism capture energy from other sources and then use it or are eaten. Really this is like highschool bio stuff.
you think it disperses like 'heat' or 'static electricity', a theory based on a house of cards.If it were that easy to create life from 'heat' or 'static electricity' i think we wouldve done it by now, don't you?
I didn't say it was easy. But I would argue that its pretty damn easy for us to die.
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Offline Voiderest wrote:
You might want to restate this it sounds like you are saying our muscles are somehow not chemical.Excuse me mr. physics major, but i don't think the human body is composed solely of chemical energy. There are thermal energy and energy required for us to produce force.
The thermal energy (heat) was produced by the chemical reactions of metabolism. The same goes for the work energy. Once again you are showing you know little about physiology or chemistry.
Before you even eat food, you have energy to eat it in order to burn it chemically and produce temporary energy from it.
The energy to consume and store energy from food came from the chemical energy from the previous meal eaten and stored for later use.
What happens to this ENERGY after we die?If you mean electrical or potential then I'm think it disperses like heat or static electricity does.
you think it disperses like 'heat' or 'static electricity', a theory based on a house of cards.
If it were that easy to create life from 'heat' or 'static electricity' i think we wouldve done it by now, don't you?
This is an argument from ignorance.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
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You do know you basically just said god is magic so he can break the rule, right? Then you say it isn't possible for us to comprehend god. Well if that is true how the hell can you claim a single book describes him and our relationship to it?
Yes all of our perceptions of reality are some what murky and to add to this we do only see a part of things, but if we throw out our senses we can not understand anything. Including your words from your god.
Do you just say the universe was always around? Then god didn't create everything? Wow break through. So if that’s the case why does he need to be around then?
you are trying to misunderstand the quote on purpose to make it look unscientific.
The fact of the matter is that it does not say it ORBITS THE EARTH NOR DOES IT SAY THE SUN AND MOON HAVE THE SAME ORBIT.
The Sun and the Moon both do have orbits, the sun is in the orbital trajectory of the solar apex and the moon has an obit around the earth.
try to read it more clearly next time.
This is saying the same kind of thing execpt this is connecting the sun and the moon even more.
overtake
Main Entry: over·take
1 a : to catch up with b : to catch up with and pass by
2 : to come upon suddenly
The sun and moon have their own orbits in the universe. Verse 36:40 clearly establishes the existence of the Sun’s and Moon’s orbit by stating that the sun will not "catch" (Yusaf Ali) or "overtake" (M.H. Shakir) the moon: i.e. the "sun," "moon," "day" and "night" will remain separate phenomenon since the sun and moon travel in their own orbits and hence will never collide. If the sun and moon were not in their own "exact" orbits (55:5), the phenomenon of "day" and "night" would most certainly be affected. The moon orbits around the earth every 29.5 days while it also is orbiting the sun along with the earth. The sun orbits the galaxy; to complete one revolution on its own axis, the galaxy and Sun take roughly 250 million years. The sun travels at roughly 150 miles per second in the completion of this.
Sura 18:86
This verse says that Dhu'l Qurnain reached the place where the sun set. It DOES NOT say that he saw the sun set. In other words, the word "place" indicates a geographical location. The Qur'an does not say the he saw it set in a muddy spring, it says that he "found" it setting in a muddy spring. The term "found" (wagada), and its variants, are found 107 times in the Qur'an and this term never refers to the act of "seeing".
next time learn how to read.
if you knew how to critically read, you would understand this is talking about Dhul Qarnain's point of view, key word: "HE FOUND".
I hope you understand how your making a mountain out of a hill.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio