You convert to Christianity?

Since when?

R/

Lenny

www.kaosium.org 

I've written an essay that deals directly with your question.  Please take a minute and give it a read.

You can find it HERE.

There is a differnce between non existance and being dead, you didn't exists per se in 1616, however to be dead you have to be born. Anything before your birth you were non existance, after you are born, then you can die.

That's a circular argument.

Thought is the object.

Thinker is the subject. 

The object cannot subjectivise itself. For that to happen, consciousness is necessary.

Thoughts do not possess consciousness. Check it out for yourself.

Work with your own thoughts for a while. 

The same thing that happened before you were concieved by your parents. Nothing is what you were before you were born and nothing is what you will be after you die. 

Other than living on in the memories of the people who knew you when you were alive, you will be dead, and that is it. We know enough about biological life to know when the brain dies so does conciousness.

Why do people insist on fictional hocus pokus to explain life? You know that Thor didnt magically make lighting, so why would death require a magical explination either?

Clinging to the mythological concept of an afterlife is a biological missfire of evolution. Dawkins discribes this well in "The God Delusion". It is like a moth mistaking artificial lightbulbs for moonlight.

Our genes evolved to drive us to continue, our history of scientific ignorance allowed humans to make bad guesses as to what happens after death, as well as bad guesses as to the earth being flat, as it was also a bad guess that humans once thought the heart did the thinking and not the brain. 

What happens when you throw a virgin in a volcano? Well, the people in ancient times who actually did that thought that they were pleasing an angrey mountain god, but in reality they were merely commiting murder.

My brain will die and decompose  and I will cease to exist. I dont have a problem facing reality and I dont need hocus pokus myth to explain it. No Superman vs Kriptonite explination about bearded men in white robes vs men in red leotards with pitchforks needed to explain death. YOU DIE and that is it and you will have the same conciousness then as you did before you were concieved, NONE!

Stop crying about people pointing out reality to you. It is not our fault ignorant people wrote fictional myth and falsely believe it as fact. 

Here's what I'm thinking. When your brain stops thinking you can't have anymore thoughts.

For example, a man has a heart attack and dies. He's not lying there on the floor thinking, "Oh my. This is awkward." That's because his heart has stopped, so it no longer supplies the brain with the blood it needs to function. Therefore the brain also stops working.

One of the main functions of the brain is to create thoughts. Only a brain can produce thoughts. If the brain which produces thoughts no longer works, then thoughts come to a complete halt. There's no credible evidence that thinking or consciousness continues after the brain stops working.

While I check it out, why not tell us what you've learned?

Brian37 said something like:

The same thing happened before you were conceived by your parents....

Was that your experience?

What was your experience at the time?

Did you have thought?

Did you have the abscence of thought?

I'm not interested in your speculation. Only in your direct experience.

You think it is not possible to live without thought. Hogwash.

You think that you will die if thoughts stop. This is because of your limited experience.

And therefore you limit others by your limited experience.

Isn't this what science is supposed to overcome? The limited view of the few?

Because you have not experienced "No-Thought" you decry it and exclude it as a possilbe human experience.

Rubbish.

Many experience the state of "No-Thought". Most are not even aware of it.

Do cats think? If so in what language?

Do dogs think? If so in what language?

Do monkeys think? If so in what language?

You experince a thought-free state everyday, but are not aware of it. Science cannot help you here. Zen can.

Everynight you drop into a thought-free, when you drop into deep sleep.

You have been doing it for years, but have not been aware of it.

When you go to sleep tonight, watch your thought-stream. Watch it carefully. If you are very observant, you will notice thoughts taper off before sleep.

But watch very carefully of you will miss it. This is the doorway to a world where science cannot take you.

LMAO!!!

Hey man. Have you ever wondered what it feels like to be dead? Seriously man. Think about it. Or what it feels like to not be born yet? Wow. I bet it's really, really, really weird man. ( cough, cough )

It's possible to be catatonic or to be a human vegetable, yes, but the brain is still functioning, and many would call that thinking.

I have to agree with you. You're not thinking and you're still alive, after all. Hard to argue with that.

Yeah. That's why you sound kinda crazy right now.

I do not deny that it's possible to be a vegetable. A tree is alive, and yet we would be hesitant to say that it thinks. It definitely has lots of mechanisms for detecting certain things, but does it think?

Honestly, though, we're not too unrelated, we and our tree friends (happy tree friends?). Our mechanisms are just vastly more numerous and complicated, with mechanisms to deal with mechanisms that deal with other mechanisms and on and on, and many of them are located inside a lump of damp, curvaceous undulations. A lump that experts in the medical field, I hear, like to call "the brain".

Poppycock! 

Then how does anyone know they experienced it? 

Their own, and in their own way.

Their own, and in their own way. Are you of the impression that they don't think? Wow... scary....

They think like monkeys, and in monkey language.

You've obviously never seen the incredible research on bonobos. Not only can apes communicate original sentences in sign language, but bonobos have taken it a step further by using written language.

What?! Teh munkiez can writes?

You bet. It's a little pathetic if you think that humans are the only animals on the planet capable of any kind of thought.

I experience a thought-free state every day?

Actually, your brain is still doing all kinds of shit. You haven't stopped thinking, you've only gone into autopilot.

I always wondered how I managed to time warp from 11:00pm to 7:00am every day. I can stop searching my bed for that elusive flux capacitor now.

And for some people they never come back. =(

A world of snug jackets and basket-weaving. 

What happens when you stop thinking but are still alive?

 Apparently you post nonsense on RRS forums.

 Seriously, though, I like Visual Paradox's response.  The OP was largely nonsensical and does sound like the type of garbage that stoners talk about when they think they are being deep.  

Now I've experimented with Zen myself and have discovered that there are other types of conscious experiences that feel different than the kind of conscious experiences we would call "normal."  But this is simply another type of thinking, not the lack of it.  One can learn to quiet the mind and to train yourself to become focused and less distracted by concerns around you, but this is not the lack of thought.  

If I am able to meditate and reach a point of consciousness where I'm not "hearing" a constant background of jumbled ideas, memories, and other processes in the mind I have not stopped thinking.  Rather, I have practiced a skill to think a specific way.  Whether this skill is good or useful is up for debate, but what is not debatable is whether this is the lack of thought or not; It is not the lack of thought.

 Thanks for playing.

 Shaun

You all assume that if thoughts stop life stops. Why?

 Therefore life can only be confirmed if thoughts exist.

Do fly's think?

Do worms think? 

Why is it not possible to live in a state where thoughts have stopped? 

Why do you keep talking about death?

It is possible to be alive without thoughts.

You do it every day but are not aware of it.

And every night, when you fall to sleep, both deep sleep and dreaming sleep. Thoughts cease.

Have you died each night?

Are you dead and somehow resurrected in the morning?

There are techniques that allow you to experience the cessation of thought, but they take much practice (and no science). 

I'm not a college student. Dont smoke or use drugs of any type.

They physical synapses will continue to fire, but will not give rise to thought.

Why do you keep talking about death?

You don't have to die to experience the state of no-thought.

You don't need drugs.

You don't machines.

You don't need NLP

You DO need effort.

Thought is only necessary when thinking is required.

And much of the time, thinking is not required. But most people do not understand this. They confuse awareness with thought.

They believe awareness is thought. This is not so.

Awareness is necessary for thought, but thought is not necessary for awareness.

The two are quite seperate.

Find out for yourself. Do this as an experiment.

If you drive, a car, a motorbike, a bicycle, roller skates, etc.

When you stop at a red light:

Look at the red light.

Focus your attention on the red light.

Hold your attention on the red light, to the exclusion of everything else.

As your attention holds on the light, it will waver.

A thought will break through and drag your attention away from the red light to the contents of the thought (whatever that may be)

For a short while you will be carried along with the thought.

After a short while, your attention will snap back to the red light or if you carried off on a long thought stream, the car behind will honk for you to move.

Don't give up.

Do this again.

This time hold your resolve, and your attention on the red light.

You will find that the thoughts will push or break through.

You will not be able to stop them.

Even though you may wish to hold your attention on the red light, you will not be able to.

Try it for yourself and see.

Now this begs the question:

If you want to stop thoughts but can't...

Are they your thoughts?

I know I can almost hear the responses:

Of course they are your thoughts, etc, etc, etc, etc,

If they are your thoughts, why can you not pause them?

Why can you not stop them?

Why can you not change the subject when you are upset?

Look at this>

How many times have you been upset over something and the thoughts ran through your head like a raging torrent?

How many times have you wished you could stop them, at that time, but were unable to?

You just had to sit there/stand there as a helpless victim as the thoughts took hold of you.

I used to do this with the Jehovah's that called at my house:

Me: Is that your right hand?

J: Yes.

Me: Then raise it.

J: Yeah I have.

Me: Lower it.

J: Yeah I have.

Me: Move it to the left and right.

J: Yeah.

Me: Now stop your hand moving.

J: Okay.

Me: Now your thoughts. Stop them.

J: Urgh...

Atheists: Urgh...

Atheists: You have to be brain dead, synapses have to fire, etc, etc, etc,

500 years ago, common scientific knowledge stated the world was flat, and anybody who went against the prevailing view was deemed mad.

Are you now suggesting that life without thought is not possible?

Let me clarify, that thinking is still possible when you need to think about things such as maths, etc, etc, etc,

But most of the time thought is extraneous and unnecessary.

Much of the time it interferes with what you are doing.

It is invasive, much like those banner ads that break through your browsing.

When you need to think, think. But the rest of the time, you can just get on with your life with "Quiet Awareness", without that radio playing inside your head, that you cannot turn off.

But I'm sure all the Atheists and Scientists among you will have much to say on the subject.

This argument is a petty quibbling about thought's definition. You define thought as neocortex-mediated while others defined it as the entirety of consciousness-inducing brain function. Further, nobody claimed life without neocortex-mediated thought is impossible—please activate your neocortex and read the responses you received. That neocortex-mediated thought isn't responsible for the entirety of consciousness proves the neocortex doesn't act alone but doesn't establish the reality of an afterlife. That must be established by proving the continuity of consciousness after brain death.

Zen, read my previous response. I have little patience with willful ignorance and stupidity.

When I said consciousness-inducing I was referring to awareness and subconsciousness. Reread my post.

Are you an atheist, zennotes? If you don't answer, I'll assume not.

No, I was referring to a beef and bean burrito 

I'm starting to believe zennotes is related to I AM GOD AS YOU...

Forget about God or anything external. Forget about life afterdeath. Forget about the afterlife. Forget about any of that stuff. Just deal with the here and now. Just deal with your experience. Or is that too much?

What is your experience?

I only ask the questions?

Why can you not answer?

Why the cop out about god or any other entities.

Read all my posts and give me your answers based on your own experience, not what you have read in books, seen in film or video, or been told by others.

Now thats a simple request. Go for it.

Or does fear rear its ugly head?

Even though I know this probably won't make a dent in the impenetrable wall of science dodgery and presupposed conclusions, I will go on. I'm in a relatively good mood. Why not. 

The root of your problem, zen, is that you are assuming that your definition of "thinking" is the one and only correct definition.

Because if all thinking has truly stopped, and I do mean ALL thinking, then death is most likely what you are experiencing.

That was pretty much a purposeless statement. Let me try one of my own:

Communication is only needed, when one needs to communicate.

Yeah. Obviously.

Actually, I think anyone who makes the argument that "sleep is a state where no thinking is taking place" is the one who has that problem.

Again you're assuming that the definition of thought you are using is the only definition and is the correct definition in all situations.

I don't need to do this experiment to know that the brain does this. No shocking revelations going on here.

Also, it seems harmful to your "state of no-thought" proposition to argue that your brain is unable to prevent new thoughts from intruding. Not sure why you would want to do that.

Yes. The evolutionary purpose of your brain is to make associations, to assess, to run simulations, to predict. That is the point of its existence, in our skulls and in the skulls of all brain-using animals. Obviously, all animals will use them a little differently sense all animals are concerned with different things (and some are more evolved than others). No matter how much you try to make your brain stop doing things, you will not succeed.

I can't stop my heart from beating either, does that mean that my pulse is not my own?

Same silly concept, different organ.

Why can't you stop your heart from beating?

Your stomach from digesting?

Some people can do this better than others. For the ones who can't, it's probably because whatever is upsetting them is seen as a serious and pressing issue. I guarantee you that if you take someone who can't get their mind off a relative that just died, and then put them in a car that is rolling violently at a high speed toward a cliff where it will probably soar over the edge, fall, explode, and kill whoever is inside, they will probably stop thinking about their dead relative so much. At least for as long as all that is going on. It's because something even more upsetting is overriding the thing that was upsetting and doing the overriding before. 

Also, a lot of the time when people obsess over a certain thing when they are upset, they do want to stop thinking about it for emotional reasons, but for other reasons (let's say you just caught your spouse in an affair) they don't want to stop thinking about it (because they want a resolution [or revenge in some cases]). It can be a psychological dilemma.

Also that other thing I said about the brain just doing that because it is its evolutionary purpose.

I can stop thinking about something whenever I want. I just can't always control whether or not it will come back soon. The brain makes (figuratively speaking) a million associations a minute. 

You're confusing a software phenomenon with a hardware phenomenon. 

 Urgh... am I really replying to this hocus pocus...

Most often they were probably deemed more heretical than mad. 

It depends on your definition of thought.

Yes. Thinking is needed when you need to think. Yes.

For theists, probably. And this still probably depends on what you mean by "thinking".

Truer for some than for others.

Truer for some than for others.

Maybe it's not a question of whether or not I need to think. Maybe it's a question of whether or not I want to think.

In today's world, I don't need to exercise either, but I still do because I know that it is beneficial to me.

Thinking is beneficial. Therefore, I will do it. 

Just be glad our resident brain expert probably doesn't find this thread worth his time. 

Irrelevant.

I think you are confusing general thought with conscious deliberation.

That is how the brain tends to work. Unless you've done some incredible experiment that provides empericial evidence that refutes years and years of brain research.  Emphasis on emperical.

Again, I think you are confusing general thought with conscious deliberation.

Actually, it might be that you're confusing the entire nervous system with conscious deliberation. Yikes. 

Actually, you are just making bad analogies.

It's true, whether or not I say it. How do you think you were able to communicate to your fingers to type all of this bullshit? You didn't have to say "Okay, index finger, now you push the Y, and now I want you, Mr. Ring Finger, to push the O."

You were able to do it because you have motor control, which is a different area of the brain than "Do I want Fruit Loops or Cheerios for breakfast today?" which is a different area of the brain than "Ack! I broke my metatarsel!" which is a different area of the brain than "I'm hungry" which is a different area of your brain than what makes your heart beat, what makes your lungs breath without you having to constantly tell them to, what makes your eyes blink to keep your eyes moist and free of debris without you having to consantly assess your own eye-moisture-status.

Basically your entire proposition is based on ignorance and an unnecessary mistrut toward science. (I'd wager you only mistrust it because it doesn't agree with your presupposed conclusion).

Go on. Persist in your arguments that are still not working. 

You suggested it without realizing it the time you made silly generalizations because you didn't understand how brains work.

You can't do that without thinking about it, you know. At best, you could probably call this a deliberate and concentrated distraction.

No association that you're aware of anyway. We often can't understand dreams either, but those are just free-floating images and associations. 

I agree. Because your answer would probably be hocus pocus silliness. 

To quote the great Daniel Dennett:

"Just because you possess consciousness doesn't make you an expert on consciousness."

You are preaching truthiness, sir.

Reminds me more of Venkatrajan.

How does matter see matter ? Only now you are getting it dear .

That guy's a sex offender.

Zennotes sounds like a brainwashed cult victim.

Phaugh.  Worthless talking to this guy.

I might as well spend my time arguing with Ray Comfort.

BTW I think I AM GOD AS YOU would be offended at the comparison, HC.