Question for "Abrahamic " theists

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Question for "Abrahamic " theists

Why does the God of the bible and the coran care so much about what people put in their asses ? He seems to really really really care about what happens to the genitals of human beings and I just can't seem to understand exactly why. Anyone can shed some light on this for me please ?


I just want to add that I really want that dildo Laughing out loud

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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Roisin Dubh
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Well, operating under the

Well, operating under the assumption that the bible was NOT divinely inspired, I read somewhere that the concern over sexual behavior came from A) Men wanting to know for sure who their heirs were, and B) Ensuring that there was as little inbreeding as possible.  Creating stories that claimed that god was watching them in the bedroom was a way to keep them in line.

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


Tilberian
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There's a provocative

There's a provocative theory out there that much of the OT (especially Deuteronomy) can be read as hygenic prescriptions aimed at reducing the incidence of disease. This would be a rather natural concern for herders, especially if there were many new people entering the area. In fact, the genocidal tendencies of the OT can be traced this way as well.

Anyway, maybe all the sex concerns started out as a way to avoid STDs. In fact, if the proscriptions were helpful as hygenic guides, their survival and success is explained, since any group that adopted them would be healthier and grow faster. Religion as an evolutionary advantage. 

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Edison Trent
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I'd say the rules were put

I'd say the rules were put there to prevent diseases, since the people weren't exactly scientifically advanced they needed rules to keep them from doing seemingly harmless things.  This is much like the laws against eating pork, since in those days it was easy to get diseases from it.


I AM GOD AS YOU
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   I want to be "that

   I want to be "that dildo"

Love me and Use me, again and again ....

yes yes , to be a loved dildo ....

I Spell M A N , I love women ....

 

 

 


lpetrich
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I don't buy that hygiene

I don't buy that hygiene hypothesis -- seems a bit too "rational". You have to realize that these rules were put forth millennia before microscopes and the development of modern experimental protocols and epidemiological techniques.

Why should pork be a no-no but not beef? Especially as both pigs and cows can get parasitic worms. I like Marvin Harris's ecological-nuisance hypothesis, which states that pigs tend to muck up water supplies in a semidesert climate, because they are not well adapted to it. The nice thing is that it is relatively simple for people to infer in the absence of modern-day experimental instrumentation and conceptual apparatus.

Some such thing may also explain circumcision, which started out in places with semidesert or desert climates. It can be a way of keeping sand from getting between the foreskin and the glans/head of the penis; no foreskin, no sand trap. 

And some such rules may be more-or-less arbitary rules for distinguishing their followers from other people, like lots of Orthodox Jewish customs. By refusing to eat meat with milk, you act like your fellow Orthodox Jews and distinguish yourself from non-Jews.

Some rules seem more like some sort of "jealousy instinct" than anything "rational"; traditionalist Muslim men sometimes seem almost pathologically jealous.

And some rules seem almost too bizarre to be taken seriously, like the great mathematician Pythagoras's prohibition of eating beans. 


triften
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lpetrich wrote: I don't

lpetrich wrote:

I don't buy that hygiene hypothesis -- seems a bit too "rational". You have to realize that these rules were put forth millennia before microscopes and the development of modern experimental protocols and epidemiological techniques.

It doesn't matter why the behavior crops up, just that it did and was advantageous at the time. Even if the aversion to homosexuality and other sexual rules were just due to a leader's personal insecurities, when some disease swept through and afflicted people who were promiscuous and/or engaging in less hygenic behaviors, the survivors were the ones following whatever ridiculous laundry list of behaviors. So, not only were more people raised hearing about the rules, the survivors had a first-hand account of "god hating those who don't follow them."

If someone started the practice of rubbing garlic on their head because they hallucinated an interaction with an angel, then giant birds appeared and started biting off people's head, but skipped the garlic headed, it doesn't matter why he started applying garlic, just that it is helpful in his environment (one filled with giant head-eating birds.)

 (Sorry, a little rambly.)

-Triften 


wavefreak
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So science should cure STDs

So science should cure STDs so we can fuck more but we simply decide to ban cigarettes? Both, without medical science, are sources of disease and both are easily solved through behavioral changes. But one is a social pariah (smoking) and the other is not. Whether gay or straight the easy answer to STDs is monogamy. Why do we as a society consider the cost of curing STDs worth it but the cost of curing smoking diseases so high that discouraging cigarettes is the "rational" choice?


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wavefreak wrote: So science

wavefreak wrote:
So science should cure STDs so we can fuck more but we simply decide to ban cigarettes? Both, without medical science, are sources of disease and both are easily solved through behavioral changes. But one is a social pariah (smoking) and the other is not. Whether gay or straight the easy answer to STDs is monogamy. Why do we as a society consider the cost of curing STDs worth it but the cost of curing smoking diseases so high that discouraging cigarettes is the "rational" choice?

Sex is natural and normal behaviour for healthy adults. Most people simply cannot be happy without it. So people are going to have sex, full stop.

The choice of whether to be monogamous or not is a profound lifestyle choice. Most people are ready for sex long before they are ready for monogamy. Pushing people to be monogamous creates more problems than it solves in the form of unhappy liasons leading to cheating, violence, substance abuse, depression and unwanted and abused children, to name a few. The choice of monogamy is too important in people's personal lives to properly be the subject of social pressure.

Cigarettes contain an addictive drug and are marketed aggressively by huge corporations. There is no natural drive to smoke them; the behaviour is learned and often comes from peer pressure and advertising. Quitting smoking is almost always a net benefit to the quitter, socially, physically and emotionally. Yes it is difficult for some people to be happy without cigarettes (and religion) which is why I don't think they should be made illegal. However the certainty of a net benefit to the quitter, and society at large, is sufficient to justify a socialization campaign to discourage the habit.

When you tell people to be monogamous, you are fucking with their whole lives. When you tell people to quit smoking, you are doing them a favour. That's why the former is not OK and the latter is.

Obviously, the best solution would be to invent harmless cigarettes and/or find cures for all the smoking-related diseases. Not sure why the former isn't happening, but I'm pretty sure people are working on the latter. 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


wavefreak
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Tilberian wrote: When you

Tilberian wrote:

When you tell people to be monogamous, you are fucking with their whole lives. When you tell people to quit smoking, you are doing them a favour. That's why the former is not OK and the latter is.

This is completely subjective. Which is exactly my point. Your conclusions about what are "right" and "wrong" are based on personal feeling not objective evidence. What makes using a drug not natural? It is natural to seek pleasure. Drugs are used precisely for that. Abusing a drug leads to problems. "Abusing" sex leads to problems. 


zarathustra
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Sex does involve risks, and

Sex does involve risks, and those who engage in it should be responsible. Yet in keeping with the OP, I don't think the abrahamic god would approve of homosexuals even if they were responsible and monogamous, or even monogamous heterosexuals if they were doing something other than missionary.  Even auto-eroticism is admonished, which does not cause STD (unless calluses qualify).

 As an aside:  Smoking can affect others than the individuals engaging in it.  To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as secondhand sex (pun possibly intended).

 

 

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Tilberian
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wavefreak wrote: Tilberian

wavefreak wrote:
Tilberian wrote:

When you tell people to be monogamous, you are fucking with their whole lives. When you tell people to quit smoking, you are doing them a favour. That's why the former is not OK and the latter is.

This is completely subjective. Which is exactly my point. Your conclusions about what are "right" and "wrong" are based on personal feeling not objective evidence. What makes using a drug not natural? It is natural to seek pleasure. Drugs are used precisely for that. Abusing a drug leads to problems. "Abusing" sex leads to problems.

The statement is NOT subjective. It is 100% backed with observed fact. I am not making any value judgement about sex or smoking, only about the idea of attempting to control the behaviours.

Using drugs is not even in the same category as sex as a behaviour. Sexual behaviour is hardwired and innate. Almost no one can be happy without sex. All normal adults in all cultures will develop a need for sex as they mature. It is one of our body's most basic functions.

Smoking is transmitted culturally and in no way makes up any part of our normal evolved behaviour. Our bodies are not built to do it and we suffer no ill effects from not doing it (aside from withdrawal, which isn't a problem if you don't start). It so different from sex as a human behaviour that any attempt to link the two is an egregious false analogy.

Of course it is natural to seek pleasure. The point is too general to be relevant here. We are talking about two completely different sources of pleasure that work in different ways for different reasons and have totally different characteristics and consequences.

You are right to put "abusing" sex in quotations because it is not at all clear that polygamous sex is wrong or in any way against our natures. In trying to control it, we cannot be sure that we are not doing more harm than good. But when we try to control drugs, we know that, at least as far as our intent goes, we are doing more good than harm. The problem arises when we use ineffective methods to control drugs, but that's another debate.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


wavefreak
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But this is STILL all

But this is STILL all subjective. What type of empirical procedure can be applied to answering the question "which forms of human sexual behavior result in the most advantageous social outcomes?"?

DUH. People like to fuck. But if I start fucking the ladies at work it's going to create problems both at work AND in my marraige. The animal in me says have at it. Spread my genetic material. But the rational part of me recognizes that spreading my genes willy nilly may both feel really good and propogate my genome, but the social consequences of this behavior will be decidely negative. There is NO evidence that a modern technological society is bettter or worse by having a liberal sexual morality. It is conjecture to assume an answer one way or the other. And laying this at the feet of up tight religious conservatives is a dodge. Just ask a lesbian how she feels when her partner jumps in the sack with somebody else. And, BTW, I never suggested that monagamy should be forced on anyone. 


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lpetrich wrote:Why should

lpetrich wrote:

Why should pork be a no-no but not beef? Especially as both pigs and cows can get parasitic worms. I like Marvin Harris's ecological-nuisance hypothesis, which states that pigs tend to muck up water supplies in a semidesert climate, because they are not well adapted to it. The nice thing is that it is relatively simple for people to infer in the absence of modern-day experimental instrumentation and conceptual apparatus.

I've also read that pigs were a big no-no back then because they are omnivores like humans are.  And in a semi-arid climate the last thing you want is a lot of animals around that will eat anything and everything you will eat and more.

I've also heard it's because pork spoils very quickly but I don't know about that.  A one nighter pork roast with the tribe would take care of that.  "Who's supplying the pig tonight?  Judas...it's been a couple weeks, don't hold out on us you backstabber you.  I'm just kidding, give us a hug..."

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


Tilberian
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wavefreak wrote: But this

wavefreak wrote:

But this is STILL all subjective. What type of empirical procedure can be applied to answering the question "which forms of human sexual behavior result in the most advantageous social outcomes?"?

That isn't even hard. We have social indicators and we have survey techniques that can reveal sexual behaviour. Should just be a matter of doing a huge, cross-cultural sociology study. 

The problem is, human sexual behaviour is pretty much the same everywhere. It is the cultural customs that differ, but never manage to make much of a dent in the hardwired behaviour anyway. So the study probably wouldn't tell us anything we don't already know.  

I think if we look at the social indicators in countries with relatively liberal ideas about sex versus the indicators in countries with more repressive ideas, we will see pretty quickly which cultural millieu creates the healthier populations.

wavefreak wrote:

DUH. People like to fuck. But if I start fucking the ladies at work it's going to create problems both at work AND in my marraige. The animal in me says have at it. Spread my genetic material. But the rational part of me recognizes that spreading my genes willy nilly may both feel really good and propogate my genome, but the social consequences of this behavior will be decidely negative.

Actually, this is not true. The animal in you wants to seek out and establish a long-term mating relationship with one main partner. That's hardwired human behaviour.

wavefreak wrote:

There is NO evidence that a modern technological society is bettter or worse by having a liberal sexual morality.

See above.

wavefreak wrote:

It is conjecture to assume an answer one way or the other. And laying this at the feet of up tight religious conservatives is a dodge. Just ask a lesbian how she feels when her partner jumps in the sack with somebody else. And, BTW, I never suggested that monagamy should be forced on anyone.

I don't lay it at the feet of anyone. All I have been saying is that attempting to control people's sexual behaviour is much more problematic, practically and ethically, than trying to control smoking. It is partly the failed attempts of uptight religious conservatives that has taught me that.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown