Kelly, D'Souza and the American founding.

OwnTheFence
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Kelly, D'Souza and the American founding.

I have a question about the American founding.  Kelly stated the following in her blog regarding D'Souza: 

 "Is he a champion of the provocation of hysteria, or does he realize that atheists don't want to remove Christianity from the history of the founding of the country--It was never there!"

Before I misinterpret her would someone explain to me exactly what she means by "...it was never there!".

 

He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
Ring’d with the azure world, he stands.

The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
He watches from his mountain walls,
And like a thunderbolt he falls.

The Eagle, by Tennyson


Iruka Naminori
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OwnTheFence wrote:

OwnTheFence wrote:
magilum wrote:

There's also article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.

Quote:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

 

Please don't take offense, magilum, but I fail to see how a foreign policy document, written to appease a certain muslim audience by serperating us from our European brethren to avoid the taint of the crusades, outweighs not only the impact of the Declaration of Independence, but many other documents as well.

The Declaration made it crystal clear that our "unalienable rights" come from a God. It refers to Him alternatively as "Nature's God," "the Creator," and the "Supreme Judge."

Does the possibility exist that the Treaty of Tripoli was written in such a manner as to not offend the Muslims we were trying to deal with at the time?

And do you like chocolate chip cookies as much as I like chocolate chip cookies?

Here's your answer:

_____


SUPREMACY CLAUSE: The supremacy clause is Clause 2 in Article VI of the United States Constitution. It establishes the Constitution, Federal Statutes, and U.S. treaties as "the supreme law of the land." The Constitution is the highest form of law in the American legal system. State judges are required to uphold it, even if state laws or Constitutions conflict with it.


Treaties must comply with the Constitution. However, the treatymaking power of the U.S. Government is broader than the law making power of Congress. The Supreme Court ruled in Missouri v. Holland (1920) that pursuant to a treaty with Britain, the United States could regulate the hunting of migratory birds, even though Congress had no independent authority to pass such legislation.
Article VI, Clause 2: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be Supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding."

_____ 

In other words, the Treaty of Tripoli is as important as the Constitution itself. Saying America is a "Christian Nation" is both false and un-American. Sticking out tongue

 

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Iruka Naminori

Iruka Naminori wrote:
OwnTheFence wrote:
magilum wrote:

There's also article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.

Quote:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

 

Please don't take offense, magilum, but I fail to see how a foreign policy document, written to appease a certain muslim audience by serperating us from our European brethren to avoid the taint of the crusades, outweighs not only the impact of the Declaration of Independence, but many other documents as well.

The Declaration made it crystal clear that our "unalienable rights" come from a God. It refers to Him alternatively as "Nature's God," "the Creator," and the "Supreme Judge."

Does the possibility exist that the Treaty of Tripoli was written in such a manner as to not offend the Muslims we were trying to deal with at the time?

And do you like chocolate chip cookies as much as I like chocolate chip cookies?

Here's your answer:

SUPREMACY CLAUSE: The supremacy clause is Clause 2 in Article VI of the United States Constitution. It establishes the Constitution, Federal Statutes, and U.S. treaties as "the supreme law of the land." The Constitution is the highest form of law in the American legal system. State judges are required to uphold it, even if state laws or Constitutions conflict with it.

In other words, the Treaty of Tripoli is as important as the Constitution itself.  Saying America is a "Christian Nation" is both false and un-American. Sticking out tongue

 

Then how are we to explain all of the other deeds of government, whether they be treaties, proclamations, congressional acts, etc. that expressly mention and refer to a deity?

See Washington's Thanksgiving Proclamation above as an example, or look up other U.S. treaties that specifically mention a deity.

 What is the explanation for this?  I'm not trying to be nit-picky.  I just really want to know.

He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
Ring’d with the azure world, he stands.

The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
He watches from his mountain walls,
And like a thunderbolt he falls.

The Eagle, by Tennyson


Iruka Naminori
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A few quotes by founding

A few quotes by founding fathers:

___

“Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone to man.”  - Thomas Jefferson

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.” – Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774


John Adams
"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."


Thomas Jefferson
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."


George Washington
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
- letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it." – Benjamin Franklin

“Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.” - Thomas Paine

___

As someone mentioned, even if the United States was founded as a Christian nation, we should strive to change that.  Any nation that allows itself to become a theocracy loses freedom.  A quick look at the Middle East should make this quite evident.   

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OwnTheFence
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Iruka Naminori wrote: A

Iruka Naminori wrote:

A few quotes by founding fathers:

___

“Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone to man.”  - Thomas Jefferson

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.” – Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774


John Adams
"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."


Thomas Jefferson
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."


George Washington
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
- letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it." – Benjamin Franklin

“Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.” - Thomas Paine

___

As someone mentioned, even if the United States was founded as a Christian nation, we should strive to change that.  Any nation that allows itself to become a theocracy loses freedom.  A quick look at the Middle East should make this quite evident.   

Again, I ask you:

How do you reconcile these statements of Jefferson, Paine, Washington, etc with the proclamations, treaties, religious statements, etc. mentioned above?

Washington and his Thanksgiving Proclamation and his many other statements that refer to deity?

Jefferson holding church services in the Capitol while he was president?

etc, etc.

How do you reconcile what you have written AND what I have written?

 

He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
Ring’d with the azure world, he stands.

The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
He watches from his mountain walls,
And like a thunderbolt he falls.

The Eagle, by Tennyson


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OwnTheFence wrote:geirj

OwnTheFence wrote:
geirj wrote:

What does the faith/religion of the founding fathers matter anyway? The only time Christians bring it up is when they want more religion in government.

It matters insofar as Kelly seems to be saying that from a historical standpoint it did not exist.

To say "...it was never there" stikes me as revisionist history, unless of course, I still misunderstand her meaning.

"it was never there" refers to the insinuation that atheists want "to remove Christianity from the history of the founding of the country"

"Does he not know that we already live in a secular society--we just want to keep it that way?" is the next sentence.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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    As much as you like

    As much as you like to think the founding fathers wanted the USA to be a christian nation, all the evidence is contrary to that, christianity is involved due to the fact that some where christian, some where deist but deist does not mean christian again, this is an error on your part, any time pain, jefferson or others mention god you automatically assume christianity, not deist, which is where you are committing the error, jefferson, paine and others were deist, no one is denying this, however USA was not FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN nation, but as a secular nation, that all religions and beliefs have equal rights, if they endorsed christianity as the default religion of the USA then it is not in the constitution at all, and is glaringly missing, unlike england, sweden, france, germany and so many other nations that have national churches. This is what it is meant that it is not there, no where in the founding of the USA was christianity promoted as the nations religion. Yes the popluation may be the majority christians, some of the founding fathers may have been christian, however the nation was not FOUNDED as a christian nation, as such it cannot be a christian nation at it's foundation as it's constitution which is law above all other laws of the land does not endorse christianity as the default religion.


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latincanuck wrote:    

latincanuck wrote:
    As much as you like to think the founding fathers wanted the USA to be a christian nation, all the evidence is contrary to that, christianity is involved due to the fact that some where christian, some where deist but deist does not mean christian again, this is an error on your part, any time pain, jefferson or others mention god you automatically assume christianity, not deist, which is where you are committing the error, jefferson, paine and others were deist, no one is denying this, however USA was not FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN nation, but as a secular nation, that all religions and beliefs have equal rights, if they endorsed christianity as the default religion of the USA then it is not in the constitution at all, and is glaringly missing, unlike england, sweden, france, germany and so many other nations that have national churches. This is what it is meant that it is not there, no where in the founding of the USA was christianity promoted as the nations religion. Yes the popluation may be the majority christians, some of the founding fathers may have been christian, however the nation was not FOUNDED as a christian nation, as such it cannot be a christian nation at it's foundation as it's constitution which is law above all other laws of the land does not endorse christianity as the default religion.

As I said previously, I am NOT saying that we now have or have ever had, a christian government.  I AM questioning Kelly's statement "...it was never there". The IT being christianity and the THERE being at the founding.

IT was THERE.  IT continued to be THERE.  AND it will always be THERE...unless we rewrite history to suit an agenda as you accuse the christians of doing.

No one on this board has yet to explain to me the prevalence of the references to deity prior to, at and after the founding by both presidents and layman.

I have no trouble accepting into the record statements made by some of them that are negative of christianity and religion in general.

Why do you have trouble accepting the overwhelming number of statements made, and actions taken, by them that support christianity and religion in general?

I'm fairly neutral on the issue of christianity.  But I am not neutral on the history of the country. 

Guys...you are doing EXACTLY what you accuse the christians of doing:   Rewriting history to suit your purposes. Picking and choosing statements out of their overall context to support your position.

I'm still waiting for an answer from someone who will address what we do with the statements, proclamations and actions that are CONTRARY to the position that I believe Kelly is espousing.

I would expect more from reasoning atheists.

You don't win arguments by ignoring part of the facts. 

He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
Ring’d with the azure world, he stands.

The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
He watches from his mountain walls,
And like a thunderbolt he falls.

The Eagle, by Tennyson


OwnTheFence
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aiia wrote: OwnTheFence

aiia wrote:
OwnTheFence wrote:
geirj wrote:

What does the faith/religion of the founding fathers matter anyway? The only time Christians bring it up is when they want more religion in government.

It matters insofar as Kelly seems to be saying that from a historical standpoint it did not exist.

To say "...it was never there" stikes me as revisionist history, unless of course, I still misunderstand her meaning.

"it was never there" refers to the insinuation that atheists want "to remove Christianity from the history of the founding of the country"

"Does he not know that we already live in a secular society--we just want to keep it that way?" is the next sentence.

 Unfortunately, that is what I assumed it meant.

We can't selectively ignore our own history, guys.

You can't win arguments that way.

He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
Ring’d with the azure world, he stands.

The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
He watches from his mountain walls,
And like a thunderbolt he falls.

The Eagle, by Tennyson


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aiia wrote: "it was never

aiia wrote:
"it was never there" refers to the insinuation that atheists want "to remove Christianity from the history of the founding of the country"

"Does he not know that we already live in a secular society--we just want to keep it that way?" is the next sentence.

 

Whilst people have already stated that indeed some of the founding fathers where Christian, some others were just Deist's and it's quite possible some were of other faiths (or lack of faith).

 

To me however "it was never there" meant that Christianity (or any religion) had no part in the formation and the laws of the USA. It doesn't matter what the founding fathers belief's were, what matters is the intent behind the document and idea. That intent was that the Government would not involve itself with peoples belief's nor endorse any of their belief's.

 

Good morals and ethics are not restricted to Christianity, so any decisions made in the creation of the document in no way means that the decision was a "Christian" one.

 

Also keep in mind that because of the not promoting a religion idea of the constitution, it also means you cannot say that the document itself is a Christian based document. Suggesting so actually goes against the whole intent of the document in the first place.

 

 

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    I have no problem

    I have no problem with the statements you made, but you have YET to provide me the evidence IN THE CONSTITUTION that the founding fathers of the USA choose the USA as a christian nation? That christianity is the religion of choice for the USA goverment and it's people. IT (Christianity) is NOT there (the constitution) and never was. Yes the USA has had and does have a majority christian population, yet some of the founding fathers where christian (not all), however no where in the constitution is christianity mentioned or endorsed, as such it was never there. D'Souza arguement is that the USA was founded as a christian nation, which it wasn't, it was and is (to this point in time) a secular nation (with a majority christian practically all it's presidents as well). Christianity may have been part of the lives of the people and of the founding fathers, and it may have influenced their decision, but it is not part of the foundation of the USA or it's constitution. The ideology of secular society is however, if it was a christian nation as many would like, which branch of christianity does it endorse? If you have ever bothered to look this up all nations that have a national christian church are part of a branch of christianity (england is anglican, Sweden is Lutheran, Spain is the reformed Episcopal, Italy the roman catholic church) so which branch of christianity is the USA? Last time i checked the goverment doesn't endorse any of them, but remains neutral, as does the constitution (seperation of church and state anyone?)

    As such, no one is denying christianity existed or had it's part in the foundation of the USA, as did deism and various other philosophies and beliefs, it's just not in the constitution, IT never was THERE.

    So to clear it up, christianity is never mentioned in the constitution, people can and do have their own personal beliefs (look at the founding fathers all different) and say what they please (freedom of expression and freedom of speech) as such washington, Paine, Jefferson, Madison and the rest all had different views on religion, on politics, and many many many other things, however they agreed on the constitution to be neutral on it all or as we can say secular, they did not want the goverment to endorse any religion period, and even though christianity was and still is the majority in regards to beliefs in the USA the goverment themselves do not endorse it, they remain neutral. Does this clear it up at all? 


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Ok Own, I'll give a shot at

Ok Own, I'll give a shot at giving you the answer I think you're looking for.  It won't have the eloquent sledge-hammer logic of Hamby, nor the wrecking ball science of DG, but here goes.  You seem to be concerned because you feel that by Kelly saying "it was never there" in response to comment that Atheists want to remove Christianity from the history and founding of the government equates to rewriting history, or selectively interpreting history in our favor.  I'll happily grant you that concern, and though I can't speak for Kelly (and wouldn't dare even dream of it), I think there's more to your question than there appears.

 You seem to basically asking whether or not Christianity had an impact on the founding of this country.  Well, I would say that the answer to this is yes.  But not in the way most Christians think.  Each of the founding fathers would have been influenced by his world view, philosophy, and yes, even religion.  So in that sense, yes, Christainty had some influence on the founding on this nation.  As did Deism.  However, the one thing lacking in this comment is a distinction between the factors influencing the individual founders, and the intent behind the government they set up.  While each individual founding father would undoubtedly be influenced by many personal beliefs or philosophies, the government they set up was set up specifically to be secular.  That much should be obvious to anyone that actually takes the time to read the constitution.  The United States was not founded as a theocracy or a Christian Nation by design.  The founding fathers, whatever their personal beliefs or experiences, specifically set up a government that was to be separate from, not controlled by, and not controlling of or by and religion or church.  That's what I think Kelly is saying.  We're not trying to remove Chrsitianity from the founding of our government because it was never there.  We can't possibly remove Christianity from our history no matter how much we might want to, but we can and should keep it out of our government because it was never supposed to be there in the first place.

 On an interesting side note, I find it fascinating that the founding fathers, some of whom were undoubtedly very religious men while some were obviously not, were able to collaborate and design a government that allows for freedom of religion.  Not just a specific religion, but all religions and the lack thereof.  Pretty amazing for a few 18th century colonists if you ask me.

Cheers!

~Mike


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People often mix issues. 1.

People often mix issues.

1. Having a history of Christianity being part of society.

IS A SEPERATE ISSUE THAN

2. The founders intent on what role religion has in government.

As the prior post said and I have said as well, the founders were a wide range of beliefs. But they all agreed, based on prior experiance that their was no fair way to incert a deity into the Constitution and came to the conclusion that issue  should be left up to the individual. thus the omission of any diety COMBINED with demands for neutrality in three places in the constitution.

1. First Amendment bares official state religions or favoritism of one over another.

2. Religion cannot be used as a test for office "No religious test"

3. No mention of any deity manditory in the oath of office.

No one here would deny Christianity, along with deism and pluralism being part of the countries history. But OUR CONSTITUTION is not ripped out of any holy book and was not intended by the founders to be solely interpreted by Christians where others take a back seat to |Christians.

Jefferson as I said denied the virgin birth and death of Jesus as being fiction. He was a president. That is evidence enough that the founders had no intent of a Christian monopoly over interpretation of the Constitution. If that were the case deists like Jefferson would have been explicitely denied (in the Constitution) any legal right to run for office. 

If they only wanted Christians to partisipate in goverment and run our goverment the oath of office should have explicitely mentioned Christianity and Jesus and the Constitution should have specifically bared non-Christians from holding office.

The law of the Constitution protects freedom of religion. But Christians take that is a collective right to a monopoly of goverment and not an individual concious issue. 

The founders intended law to be based on common consensus, not common sect or common religion. It was because of their diversity that they saw the best way to come to consensus is to leave religion out of law making and seek overlap beyond that.

If both an atheist and theist can be members of the NRA...If both an atheist and theist can be for gun control....If both an atheist and theist can be for or against the death penalty, for example.....that was the intent the founders had.

They knew that when religion was left up to the individual, the diverse views and labels would not get in the way of finding common law. When the Jew, Christian and atheist see the 55mph highway sign.....THAT IS COMMON LAW. So they set up a government that would not be divided or distracted by issues they knew were a matter of personal concious.

They were not against religion, but they railed against pulpit politics and did not want religion to get its paws on government and they didnt want goverment to get its paws on religion. Jefferson's "wall" is why we have freedom of religion, but that depends on everyone remembering that the goverment is not owned by one sect or one religion, it is an umbrella we all fall under. Neutrality is the key.  

 

 

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OwnTheFence wrote: aiia

OwnTheFence wrote:
aiia wrote:
OwnTheFence wrote:
geirj wrote:

What does the faith/religion of the founding fathers matter anyway? The only time Christians bring it up is when they want more religion in government.

It matters insofar as Kelly seems to be saying that from a historical standpoint it did not exist.

To say "...it was never there" stikes me as revisionist history, unless of course, I still misunderstand her meaning.

"it was never there" refers to the insinuation that atheists want "to remove Christianity from the history of the founding of the country"

"Does he not know that we already live in a secular society--we just want to keep it that way?" is the next sentence.

Unfortunately, that is what I assumed it meant.

We can't selectively ignore our own history, guys.

You can't win arguments that way.

You've had the answer to your what did Kelly mean by "it was never there" question since early in this thread. That you ignore it is something people can't help. As to selectively ignoring our history, I haven't seen anyone do that. The United States of America was not founded as a Christian nation, this is undeniably true, it is what Kelly was referencing in her "it was never there" comment, and it is what people have been trying to explain to you in this thread.

People have been selectively ignoring the things you have been pointing out because they are irrelevant to the question of whether or not the US was founded as a Christian nation. If you wish to show that it was then you should need to produce a government document that claims the US is a Christian nation, just one single itty bitty official government document stating such a thing, to counter the one provided that says it is not. Otherwise, it seems that the trump card has been played, the evidence has been produced to show America was not founded as a Christian nation, the question as to what Kelly meant by the quoted wording has been answered, and there is little left to argue about on this topic.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


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OwnTheFence wrote: aiia

OwnTheFence wrote:
aiia wrote:
OwnTheFence wrote:
geirj wrote:

What does the faith/religion of the founding fathers matter anyway? The only time Christians bring it up is when they want more religion in government.

It matters insofar as Kelly seems to be saying that from a historical standpoint it did not exist.

To say "...it was never there" stikes me as revisionist history, unless of course, I still misunderstand her meaning.

"it was never there" refers to the insinuation that atheists want "to remove Christianity from the history of the founding of the country"

"Does he not know that we already live in a secular society--we just want to keep it that way?" is the next sentence.

Unfortunately, that is what I assumed it meant.

We can't selectively ignore our own history, guys.

You can't win arguments that way.

You also can't win by changing the question in mid-discussion.

Your point evolved from "Christianity was always there" to "Christianity or the recognition of a deity was always there". You also tried to include "churchgoing" as though that, in itself, constituted Christianity.

Christianity is nowhere in the founding documents. The acknowledgement of a god is there (I believe as a convention of formal documents of the time). Christians should stop trying to claim Deism's place in history as their own.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly

jcgadfly wrote:
OwnTheFence wrote:
aiia wrote:
OwnTheFence wrote:
geirj wrote:

What does the faith/religion of the founding fathers matter anyway? The only time Christians bring it up is when they want more religion in government.

It matters insofar as Kelly seems to be saying that from a historical standpoint it did not exist.

To say "...it was never there" stikes me as revisionist history, unless of course, I still misunderstand her meaning.

"it was never there" refers to the insinuation that atheists want "to remove Christianity from the history of the founding of the country"

"Does he not know that we already live in a secular society--we just want to keep it that way?" is the next sentence.

Unfortunately, that is what I assumed it meant.

We can't selectively ignore our own history, guys.

You can't win arguments that way.

You also can't win by changing the question in mid-discussion.

Your point evolved from "Christianity was always there" to "Christianity or the recognition of a deity was always there". You also tried to include "churchgoing" as though that, in itself, constituted Christianity.

Christianity is nowhere in the founding documents. The acknowledgement of a god is there (I believe as a convention of formal documents of the time). Christians should stop trying to claim Deism's place in history as their own.

 

The fearmongers of Christianity have waged and effective war against the truth of the intent of the founders. Anytime a secularists insists on neutrality  by goverment ignorant Christians  both left and right try to claim that we are trying to opress them.

The bottem line is that non-Christians, not just atheists, are starting to assert their rights to compete as garunteed by the Constitution "no religious test", and no manditory swearing to Jesus in the oath of office. When the secularist|(which can be a Christian  as well) reminds the public that the goverment is not set up "for Christian use only, guests welcome as long as they sit at the back of the bus".

When we point out that they have no right to monopolize what a citizen is and lie and pretend that "God" is generic, they cry that we are opressing them. No, we are simply saying that the goverment of the United States is "of the people" not "of the Christians".

When the Supreme Court opens session in the morning with "God save the court" who are they fooling? Would these same people allow a Supreme Court Justic to open with, "Yahwey save the court". Of course not, and rightfully so because the goverment is not Jewish owned either.

Here is my point, when the secularists talks about the First Amendment MIND YOU CHRISTIANS CAN BE SECULARISTS TOO, they take it for a demand for neutrality which is what it is. The goverment cannot be for or against religion, and can only maintain freedom of religion by keeping its hands out of the issue.

If Christians would rightfully object to goverment printing a pledge that said, "Under No |God" or "Under Allah" wouldnt it stand to reason that they shouldnt, as a goverment, favor Christianity? Isnt that what Islamic theocracies do? They favor Islam which makes it hard if not impossible for non-Muslims to have a voice or to compete for office.

Secular theists and atheists did not want this fight. It is direct result of Christians falsely assuming sole ownership of the Common Law of OUR U.S. Constitution.

The flag, for example has no cross on it. But, it also does not have an atom symbol on it or the word "atheist" on it. It does not have a cresent moon of Islam on it, or the Jewish Star of David on it. THAT IS NEUTRAL and does not favor any label but says, "we are all Americans.

So simply pointing out that goverment has increasingly gotten away from neutrality and increasingly panders to Christianity at a frighteng pace, should concern, not just atheists, but anyone who falls outside the label "Christian" be they Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Wiccan, Buddhist.

Now to the right wing morons who claim I am asking for a PC quota system is outright bullshit. This drive is to put religion back where it belongs(NOT OUT OF VIEW) but to reverse the trend of Christianity becoming the law of everyone even if they are not Christian. That is what Islamic theocracies do.

Most here, I would hope, do vote and have voted for Christians from local to national ellections, so we are not saying |"DONT VOTE FOR A CHRISTIAN"

But rasing awarness that IT IS OK to not follow Jesus and even if you dont, YOU HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS A CHRISTIAN, including running for and getting ellected to ANY OFFICE. The United States Constitution does not demand that you vote for a Christian or an atheist. It reminds us to consider the individual without a relgious test. There are many reasons to vote or not vote for someone, and the Constitution demands that religion be left out of that process.

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO ALL WHO ARE BORN HERE AND ARE LEGAL GOOD STANDING CITIZENS REGARDLESS OF LABEL. YOU HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS ANY CHRISTIAN AND DO NOT HAVE TO SWEAR TO JESUS, OR ALLAH, OR RICHARD DAWKINS, to run or get ellected or apointed to any office.

We cannot as atheists forcably end via governement any religion anymore than Muslims can forcably end Christianity or vice versa. But atheists and secular theists, including Christians are deeply concerned about the growing trend to assume that Jesus, and not humans wrote OUR Constitution and that only Jesus picks OUR president and not the people.

Why havent we had a Jewish President? For the same reason we have not had a black or female president. Not because it is illegal, but because of long time deep indoctrination that only White Christians represent everyone and all non-white Christians are incapable of holding seats of power.

We are not telling Christians they have to go away. Secularists merely want a neutral goverment and we want to remove the invisable sign, "Non-Christians need not apply" off of our goverment doors and highest offices.

There is absolutly nothing in the Constitution preventing a non-Christian from sitting on the Supreme Court. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution preventing a Jew or atheist from running  for President. Votes are not garunteed of course, but it is way past time that "no religious test" be the duty of every citizen so that we can be United insted of divided over a personal issue that should be left up to the individual.

Jesus does not own our goverment, neither do Jews, Muslims or Atheists. We are simply tired of the monopoly via Christian assumption that they are the only ones intitled to speak on the behalf of all of the 300 million Americans. 

As a citizen I have a duty to the Constitution to protect freedom of religion. But that doesnt mean the Constitution suports favoritism to Christianity. It means that WE, when WE as citizens come togethere to make OUR laws, that they are not based on your label or mine, but based on advise and consent and common law.

I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH, to the Secular Christians who get this, THANK YOU. To the Non-Christians reading this of all labels you are being sold short by the Christian majority. You are always expected to consider them for our highest offices, but they almost never return the favor as a fellow citizen. If you want true Constitutional Equality as a citizen, it starts with you demanding that our goverment take it's "Jesus fans only" sign on it's door off.

THIS IS IMPORTANT, NOT JUST TO ATHEISTS, BUT TO ALL WHO DISPISE MONOPOLIES AND THEOCRACIES. If a Christian citizen can run and get ellected president, so can a non-Christian citizen. IT IS YOUR COUNTRY TOO! 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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latincanuck wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Wait one minute, where in my post did I say Paine did not believe in god? I said he was against christianity, which I may remind you does not have the only claim to god, Paine was a deist not a christian, there is a HUGE difference. As for your later post that Paine would be against atheists if he where here in the 21st century? Umm if he retained all the knowledge of the 18th century only, sure, and he wouldn't be that enlightened either considering what we know now compared to what he knew then, however I would assume he would have more of an einsteinian view of god and not so much a deists, but thats my opinion, if anything from his remarks I would say if he grew up now, he would have been an atheist, but what can either of us know.

However I never said Paine was not a believer in god, only that he was against christianity. His god was not the christian god.

 

This particular topic of speculation is interesting and I thought I might chime in with my own opinion on, "If Paine were alive now..."

 

I believe that Paine was a learned person who wanted very desperately to understand the nature of all things in general. I think he was as well read as he could possibly get and his passion for the deistic ideology is testament to his quest for knowledge. I think that in today's age, Paine would be an Atheist, given the knowledge we have gained about Cosmology.

Further, I have gathered that Paine was first and foremost an anti-religious individual but focused mostly on christianity which is evident in his first essay in America about the African Slave Trade.


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The sheer volume of

The sheer volume of writings by the Founding Fathers should be enough to convince anyone not blinded by faith what they intended this nation to be.  One of the things people fled in coming to this country while it was still a colony was repressive religions/theocracies.  The history of Christianity is virtually a history of repression and genocide.

You should read the letters and essays written by Jefferson, Madison, Paine, Franklin and others.  There are many statements and incidents which, when taken out of context as you accuse us of doing, could lead one to believe that they may have based their construction of this country on Christianity.  However, as someone wrote earlier it was common for people to speak in these religious terms to faciliate communication.

 However, the letters and essays written more than speak to the intent of the Fathers in regard to the secular nature of our government and the desire to keep religion out of it and it out of religion.

James Madison wrote in his 1785 Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments;  The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents.  They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle.  We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it.  Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Chritianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish wit the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?  That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whotsoever?

Jefferson in his letter to The Danbury Baptists in 1802 wrote; Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative power of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

In 1803 Jefferson wrote; I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others… we ought with one heart and one hand to hew down the daring and dangerous efforts of those who would seduce the public opinion to substitute itself in that tyranny over religious faith which the laws have so justly abdicated. 

In 1818 he wrote the following; Our laws have applied the only antidote to [religious intolerance], protecting our religious, as they do our civil, rights by putting all on equal footing.  But more remains to be done, for although we are free by the law, we are not so in practice.  Public opinion erects itself in to an inquisition, and exercises its office with as much fanaticism as fans the flames of an auto-da-fé (public burning of a heretic).

In his 1786 Virginia Act for Establishing Religious Freedom it is written; Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions…therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to the offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which in common with his fellow citizens he has a natural right.

In 1815 he wrote; I suppose there is not an instance of a single congregation which has employed their preacher for the mixed purposes of lecturing them from the pulpit in the principles of government or in anything but religion exclusively.  Whenever, therefore, preachers in stead of a lesson in religion discuss the construction of government or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of servide for which they are salaried.

In his notes on the State of Virginia he wrote; The poor Quakers were flying from persecution in England.  They cast their eyes on these new countries as asylums of civil and religious freedom; but they found them free only for the reigning sect.

Another in a 1799 letter to one Elbridge Gherry said; I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.

And finally, in an 1813 letter; History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.  This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their civil as well as religious leader will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

I think this last one pretty well sums up what he thought about theocracies, what do you think?

Try reading some of their other works, not just the ones that work for your argument, or are you bilnded by faith?  I've read the ones you've mentioned and many others besides.  They are not at all as telling about these men as you would suggest.

"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
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     Bump, yeah

     Bump,

yeah Bulldog, if people just even knew, stupid tv etc .... idiot xians ....

world wide .... atheist jesus cried in awful pain !

eeerrrrr .... awful .... myth or not, this human reality .... so embarrassing, as crucifixtion was rampant .... alexander the ass .... not great .... WAR today .... ?