New kid >_>
Offline Hola
I'm more recently deconverted, about a month ago if I recall properly. I was raised in a pretty conservative Christian home. The standard family with our shelves full of Dr. Dobson "Abuse is a-ok with the Lord!" books, solid church attendance, etc.
I 'accepted' Jesus as my savior at around age 3, although obviously I wasn't even close to the age where I could make that kind of a decision. I was thouroughly indoctrinated, believing that evolution was foolish, Noah's Ark is actually up there in Mount Ararat frozen in a glacier, the basic stuff. The only thing that really bothers me is all the wasted time. Any public school science class was wasted on me, I'm only within the past two months actually understanding Natural Selection. I still wish I could go back and take advantage of the educational oppertunities I had to actually learn something.
I've rededicated my life to Jesus more times than I can count, asking the obvious questions in my pre teen age like "If God knows everything, why did he create us knowing that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit?" (I was told to add this to the ever growing list of things to ask God when I get to Heaven) and moving on to the more philisophical stuff from 15ish and on. My older sister is probably the first (and only) person to introduce logical thought to me, and probably the reason I'm now a free thinking atheist (although she, beyond my comprehension, still adheres to the Christian faith)
My mother is more or less an illogical Fundementalist. Just to give an example of what I'm facing when debating with her, last night she brought up Noah's Ark. According to her, (she readily spouts whatever the Religious Right puts forth as truth without even looking at the opposing argument) the fossil record supports the flood story. She had no source on hand and told me she'd send it via email. I, instead of attacking that claim, confronted her on the illogicality of the story. Earlier we had discussed evolution and she had of course denied macro evolution. I confronted her with something along the lines of "There is no possible way that even one of every animal could ever fit in a boat with the measurements given in the bible. The only way that would work is if the species in the ark evolved into new ones." She of course still holds that as impossible and unprovable so I had presumably destroyed the ark story's validity. Her response: "God can do anything"
Oh how I hate this argument. If I call her on it and ask why he didn't just fucking turn everyone but Noah and his family into salt or something, she'd simply employ the argument that humans can't understand why God does what he does (basically another version of "ask him when you get to Heaven" )
I've been enjoying the (free) Rational Response Squad radio shows for about a week now (thanks to the FLAM player). I'm unfortunately not the best in the world when it comes to debating people face to face. With my mom, it's increasingly difficult to debate her due to her very concrete irrational beliefs. I'm here to observe, gather knowledge, etc. I'll probably be asking a lot of questions because I'm still new to the world of rational thought. I hope to gather enough knowledge to challenge my mom and other theists effectively. Unfortunately, my sister is either way out my league philisophically or just plain insane. I simply can't match her in debate because I never really understand where she's coming from.
Anyway, if anyone has the patience to read all that and all the following, I have a few question and requests:
Any and all Bible verses (w/chapter and verse) that are just plain repulsive and ridiculous that you can provide for me would be ver appreciated.
Also, concrete evidence for macro evolution would be very appreciated.
Now, something that bothers me is embryonic stem cell research. All I ever hear about it is it's remarkable "potential" but it seems that all the progress is being made in adult stem cell research. Have I been duped or is there still no notable progress in the field of embryonic stem cell research?
Any help with those things would be great. I apologize for any grammar or spelling errors, I'm not the best at typing and I am currently very tired.
"Shut the fuck up" - Penn Jillette
- Login to post comments
welcome to the forum. this link should answer your question about evolution.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
you must be very intelligent to be able to break out of such strong indoctrination, felicitation.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
I feel ya, nice Karma, glad yer here.
I'm an atheist, and an Alan Watts fan, .... I AM GOD .... exactly like you. I like plugging cool Alan ....
Some evil bible , http://www.evilbible.com/
Lucky you, Check out RRS fully, the rrs authors etc.
Hola !
Atheism Books.
You've only been an atheist for a month? Did you go directly from Christianity to atheism, or did you, like most have a period where you were a diest(gave up on christianity but not a god concept)?
Anyhow, if you are not used to debating be warned that some theists are well seasoned at the art of basterdizing science. Just remember after all the elaborate BS they still cannot back up magical claims with anything other than "God did it".
Genisis treats the sun and moon as two seperate sources of light. The bible treats all the points of light in the night sky, besides the moon, as stars when we know that some are planets and others intire galaxies which the bible never mentions.
Absurdities such as "POOF" an adult female coming from human bone instantainously. Snakes turning into wood. Disimbodied ghost knocks up a 9-14 girl. And human flesh surviving rigior mortis after 3 days.
You mentioned Noah, thats another absurdity you could write an entire book on. But, once again, other than "God did it" the bible never mentions thinks like black widdows, dart frogs, cobras, scorpians.
The bible simply claims that "Noah" called the animals and "Poof" they blindly followed. Hippos kill more humans than alligators, but the bible never talks about dangerous animals, just that two of every kind and that "God did it".
Here is the fact, it is FICTION and you are lucky to escape it's grip. It is hocus pokus and as Jefferson writely wrote in a letter to John Adams April 11th 1823
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
You've only been an atheist for a month? Did you go directly from Christianity to atheism, or did you, like most have a period where you were a diest(gave up on christianity but not a god concept)?
Anyhow, if you are not used to debating be warned that some theists are well seasoned at the art of basterdizing science. Just remember after all the elaborate BS they still cannot back up magical claims with anything other than "God did it".
Genisis treats the sun and moon as two seperate sources of light. The bible treats all the points of light in the night sky, besides the moon, as stars when we know that some are planets and others intire galaxies which the bible never mentions.
Absurdities such as "POOF" an adult female coming from human bone instantainously. Snakes turning into wood. Disimbodied ghost knocks up a 9-14 girl. And human flesh surviving rigior mortis after 3 days.
You mentioned Noah, thats another absurdity you could write an entire book on. But, once again, other than "God did it" the bible never mentions things like black widdows, dart frogs, cobras, scorpians.
The bible simply claims that "Noah" called the animals and "Poof" they blindly followed. Hippos kill more humans than alligators, but the bible never talks about dangerous animals, just that two of every kind and that "God did it".
Here is the fact, it is FICTION and you are lucky to escape it's grip. It is hocus pokus and as Jefferson writely wrote in a letter to John Adams April 11th 1823
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Glad to have you on board. There are plently of people here who can point out the answers to your questions, spend some more time on the forums and you can probally find them. If you need anything specific feel free to ask. I'll point out the specific people who can help if you don't find out what you need on your own.
Morte alla tyrannus et dei
Welcome to the hizzle!
I'm pretty much stuck in the same boat you are, RAW.
Read, "Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries About the Event that Changed History"
That will point out how impossible Noah's Flood is. For one, you need 10 times as much water on Earth than there is.
But if there was, the water vapor would hold so much heat we would be vaporized like we would be on Venus.
But you don't have to worry about that because the atmospheric pressure would be so great that we would be crushed flat.
Eh, the madness never ends. The bible is flat out obvious fiction. And dangerous fiction at that.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
By the way, "microevolution" and "macroevolution" are not scientific term. They were invented by creationists to confuse the issue.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Hello, sorry to hear about your family problems.
I oppose embryonic stem cell research (ESR) for Biblical reasons (note my theist "badge"
There are rational reasons for opposing ESR. We must ask ourselves "what is human life", "does human life have value", and "where does that value come from".
Scientifically, a fetilized egg (embryo) is a new, unique human life.
The question of value is largely a legal one. America is currently confused about the value of human life. We want to assert the value of life, but we also want to be able to kill inconvenient people, or kill people in order to benefit ourselves.
This is an interesting problem, I'd be interested in what others have to say.
If I'm not mistaken, the research on embryonic stem cells is performed on eggs fertilized in fertility clinics that would not be implanted in a woman for purposes of procreation. These eggs would be simply thrown out if not used for science.
http://www.broadenedhorizons.org/id53.htm
If my story is straight, then it highlights another example of theist hypocrisy-- they love to rant and rave about the evils of stem cell research, but have you ever heard of a theist protesting fertility clinics?
"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."
Sure, that doesn't make them not human life. It certainly shows we have no value for human life...
A lot of people don't understand human development. A lot have not thought everything through. Some are certainly hypocrites.
I have the same moral problems with a fertility clinic making more embryos than they plan to implant. I also have a problem with people implanting more embryos than they plan to give birth to (reduction anyone?).
Of course, doing the moral thing will increase costs (in a procedure already very costly). But economics does not change the morality of the situation.
Then, you need to talk to your god about this, because approximately 60?% of fertilized eggs will fail to implant, and naturally abort themselves. Also, using your logic, if I cut off a small piece of my skin, that in and of itself is human life.
Most are hypocrites. The amount of factual knowledge that the majority of theists base their beliefs on would fit in a thimble.
They have to, as part of the process.
I don't follow you here. Why would someone implant an embryo if they didn't want to have a child?
Then, again I raise the question-- where is the outrage at the the murderous practices of fertility clinics? Where is the drive to pass legislation outlawing fertility treatments?
"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."
People die all the time. That doesn't mean they aren't people. Or that we should could whomever we like. Your skin cells are not unique individuals. They are your "adult" cells (an embryo has adult cells after about nine days, before that we are capable of asexual reproduction - twinning).
What is conversion factor between "Libraries of Congress" and "thimbles"?
Not necessarily. They could create them one at a time, and implant one at a time.
But people will implant five embryos. Then "reduce" (kill) one or more at a later time.
I don't know if you are going to see people picketing in the streets any time soon. We can't even get 50% of the people to agree abortion is wrong...
Personally, if embryonic stem cell research does what it's said to be able to do, I'm okay with embryos (Which have no neurons and therefore no conscience, pain, memories, etc.) being used to save the millions and potential billions from the ailments it can be utilized for.
It's in the same boat as animal research for me. It can ride my moral gray area, but the medical benefits far outweigh the problems I may heve with any gruesome images I'm sent in those pointless chain letter emails.
Another problem is, since those embryos have no neurons, they're no more than potential human life. No different than an egg cell or sperm cell.
Potential human life will never hold more value in my mind than existing human life.
Also, no one answered my question. Really, I fucking know there's a moral debate. Now take it somewhere else, I've honestly heard it before. I just want to know if there is any observable progress that would justify spending taxpayer money on embryonic stem cell research as opposed to focusing on adult stem cell research (which has seen progress)
"Shut the fuck up" - Penn Jillette
OK, let me back up here a second. What is your definition of life?
Nothing in the LIbraries of Congress contains any factual evidence of any deity.
My memory is foggy on this, but I thought there was a (non-financial) reason for creating numerous embryos at once. I'll do some investigating.
Well, most clinics won't implant more than 2 at a time, but I see where you're coming from now.
Then, you're agreeing with me that the majority of theists(ok, let's limit this to christians) are hypocrites?
I'll never see it as wrong(provided it happens in the very early stages). Too many people on the planet, too many of the ones already here don't even have the basic necessities.
"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."
No. As far as we know it is just potential... However, you can't knock stem cells for not having solved some great medical dilema when researchers haven't really had the availability of these cells and funding to adequately reasearch that potential.
The fact that adult stem cells are currently used for aprox. 40 medical needs should make that potential crystal clear.
Alright, makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up, I feel kind of silly for not making that connection before.
"Shut the fuck up" - Penn Jillette
The number, technically, is not 5 it is 2-4. Multifetal pregnancy reduction isn't limited to in vitro fertilization. Sure, fertility treatments have increased the occurance of multiple pregnancies but let's not forget that 'god' has allowed multiple pregnancies to occur the old fashioned way as well.
Couples turning to in vitro have usually struggled with fertility issues. Reduction can only be done in a short window and carries a huge risk of losing the whole pregnancy. I doubt many people would struggle this hard to have a kid just to risk throwing it all away. More often women carring multiples deliver multiples. Reduction isn't just done on a whim... doctors perform reduction when/if it is in the best interests of the mother's health and the survival of the remaining, viable, fetuses.
No it doesn't - it shows that the value we place on the developing child increases from a relatively low level up to the normal value we place on a fellow human as the foetus/embryo/unborn child aquires more of the attributes of a human person, such as the ability to feel and think.
These days we usually treat a newborn child as deserving full human status, altho that has not always been so.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Nice to meet you. Here is a very good site with many videos http://godisimaginary.com/
Welome to the forum. You will find plenty of support for your metamorphosis.
(sorry for the delay)
Is a person's value dependent on what that person can do?
Would you say people who practiced "exposure" (leaving a newborn to die) were wrong?
Life in general? I'm not sure I can give something concise (excluding fire, do viruses count, other weird replicating patterns). Human life is the product of sex cells from human parents (current humans). Current humans would be the population of all countries. (Sort of a grandfather clause).
Yes. I'm certain I've been a hypocrite at times too. It's a common human problem. If I am currently hypocritical, I would appreciate someone notifying me...
Could you agree that it is human life? And these cases are the death penalty applied rather arbitrarily? (Citizen's arrest, conviction, and execution)
I was also brought up fundamentlist, in a fundamentalist school, so I never even got the opportunity to learn anything about evolution. I've taken it upon myself to learn.
You're a lucky dog because evolution is fascinating and much more "magical" than anything Christianity has to offer.
I would love to have more money for books, but in the meantime, I watch documentaries, peruse the Internets™ and read what books I can. I thoroughly enjoyed The Making of the Fittest by Sean Carroll.
Also, watch the documentary based on Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker: http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,241,The-Blind-Watchmaker--Video,Richard-Dawkins
I don't think that last link works, but I'm too sick to find you a working one...sorry...off to bed or something
Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.