welcome edison.  i'm glad you decided to start using the forums.  i spent about six months just looking at the page myself.  although i have to admit there is so much content here that it's easy to get swept away reading... anyway, happy exploring!

Odd.  I went from theist, to deist, to atheist.

Strange for me to think of changing from a deist to theist.  The opposite route of myself.  But logically it makes sense to me.  Just depends where you are coming from in your beliefs. 

Welcome.

To me deism is a scary situation to be in.  You believe that there is a God, but you don't know what God wants you to do in life, whether it be worshipping God vs. leaving God alone, killing people vs. saving people, etc.  In essence, you don't know if you're doing what God would like you to do or if you're doing the opposite.

I think you may be defining deism incorrectly when you say you dont know what a god would wnat you to do . 

If deism is the path then therte is nothing a god wnats from you ... it created and then washed it hands of it.  

The loss/giult over what to do is more of a path to thiesm not deism so it seems  you are where you need to be now.

I would humbly suggest that the world can be just as wonderfull and awes inspiring with out any ism's at all. including athe-

   stay in touch, glad you are re reading the bible, I am an  >ATHEIST<  jesus/buddha fan .... AWAKEN , all is one .... all is connected .... the bible is mostly old politics .... with some great wisdom too ....

I admire you for facing that reality. Most come in here with a "kumbia" utopian delusion that the exchanges will be out of an episode of "Leave it to Beaver".

My best friend from my last job, who I wouldn't trade for the world was an Evangelical Christian. The great thing about our relationship is that each of us could be blunt about the criticisms of each others claims to the point of blasphemy without taking it personally. She had the ability to seperate "her the individual" and "her claims" as two seperate subjects.

I like that fact that you are facing this without a utopain delusion that we are going to go, "Isnt that nice" when you claim something.

You will find people here with different comfort leves as far as how they make exchanges. Some here prefure the quite library type disscussions, while others, like me, dont mind taking the "verbal gloves off".

Eathier way, I think it is safe to say most here DO disire that you at a minimum challenge yourself to ask WHY, NOT WHAT, but why you believe what you believe.

Me for example, I reject all deity claims, even the Jeffersonian deist claim, for one simple reason, lack of evidence. I reject deity claims for the same reason you reject claims of Thor or Vishnu or Isis. I treat all these claims, including the "hocus pocus" of Jesus as being in the same catigory of Harry Potter flying around on a broomstick.

I cant speak for others nore are others here as blunt as I am. But I am one to cut to the chase without sugar coating my opinion. I cant hate you because I dont know you personally. But I will not lie to you and say I find your deity claim to be in any sense credible.

So, you've gotten a taste of me. I can say that you will find out that there is alot of common ground individuals can find with other individuals regarding other subjects than religion.

For example. I love the Redskins, even though they suck. I love ancient greek plays like Les Estrada and Oedipus Rex. I love music including jazz and Metallica and 80s rock. My favorite tv shows are Hawii-5-0 A-team, Moonlighting and Law and Order SVU.

So keep in mind that when some of us "blast" you, we are adressing your claims, not you the person. If you do that, you will find that your stay will be long and informative. But if you are too sensitive, even the PC atheists here will end up offending you when you mistake a rebuttle of an argument for an insult.

So, it is great that you accept that you jumped into a shark tank. But that doesnt make us Hitler lovers or that we barbaque kittens. It just means that if we think you are full of guff on a point we are going to tell you. 

I think you are going to have a long stay here and it is certainly refreshing.

On a side note, if I could magically go back in time, I would love to debate Thomas Jefferson on his claim of diesm. I dont think he would be offended in the least if I said, "I'm sorry Tom, I think you are full of it".

His response would be, "Ok Brian, why do you say that, what is your reason for that position".

Here's a quote that I think supports that,

"Question with boldness even the existance of God, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear"

He also once equated in an April 11th l823(I hope I got that date right)Anywho, the letter was to John Adams where he classed the Virgin Birth and Death of Jesus to being the same catigory as Minervia being born out of the brain of Jupiter.

I would hardly think such a great mind would be offended to my bold scrutiny. I think he would only be offended if I made no attempt to support  my postition.

So welcome to the frey. I hope you dont mind me using you as a chewtoy, but I have no want or disire to hate you merely on this issue no matter how "full of it" I may think you are.

LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE! Then lets go have a beer. 

If you personally feel inside of yourself that god wants you to do something why are you seeking other people's answer to what he wants you to do?

I think you should figure that out yourself.  Not let some denomination of the christian faith tell you.

Perhaps God already did come down, in the form of Jesus.  Just a thought.  Or perhaps God has revealed themselves through some writing.

I am personally trying to figure it out myself, but asking others can be a good way to get insight I might not have.  If I come to the conclusion that the Bible is true, I'm not going to go join some denomination, Christians in America don't give a damn for God, they  just want to feel comfortable with their fire insurance.  I don't even know if I'll be able to call myself a Christian if my conclusion on the Bible is positive, maybe a God-follower or something similar.

I've looked inside myself. I found my heart to be desperately wicked, and self-deceptive. Full of selfish desires and, ultimately, meaningless.

You?

What gives you the idea that you're a bad person? Have you been involved in thievery, killing, physical abuse of another person?

We're all self-seeking, or I should say self-preserving, because that's instinct. Not just because we like living, but how are we supposed to do something for someone else if we don't take care of ourselves first? It's like they tell you during the safety instructions on an airplane - if you're travelling with a child and there's a loss of cabin pressure, always put your oxygen mask on first before you put the child's on. I don't understand the guilt in any religion that makes someone feel bad for doing something for themselves.

And let me ask you this: Why do you think God wants you to do something special, yet he apparently doesn't want someone who dies as a result of violence in Darfur to do something special? What is the more reasonable explanation? That there's a God, or that you were just lucky enough to be born into a developed society that allows you the luxury of thinking about such things?

Hey, check it out.. it's a rare glimpse of the Christian mating call..

Let me think about this one.  I know what you're getting at, but I'll think it through and hopefully come up with a logical answer. 

I understand you theists are not as familiar with science and logic, and for some reason you seem to think in BLACK & WHITE, but that's not the way reality works.... Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean GODIDIT! And there aren't only two types of "believers". That's BS.

A = Theist

B = Strong Atheist

Most here are C (weak agnostic atheists)

Now ask how many here are "strong atheists" and you'll find that almost nobody is.

You are confusing generic atheism with a very specific, narrow, atypical type of atheism, which is almost as presumptuous as theism.

There is a distinction.

I'm going to say this again... open your brain and recognize this:

ATHEISM IS A LACK OF BELIEF

It is NOT A BELIEF.

And the "There are no atheists" fallacy is tired, boring, and not relevant.

The first thing you need to realize is that things aren't BLACK/WHITE. There are shades of grey everywhere. You are not equipped to debate with 99% of the people here until you realize that. And when you suggest all stances on supernatural issues can fit neatly into one of two distinct boxes, you are still thinking in one dimension, in black and white. You're not in the real world. You're not thinking in real-world terms yet.

This is that same kind of "two-dimensional thinking" that prompts theists to claim that "atheists hate god".

It's almost as if there are entire areas of their brain which have been put in stand-by mode.

On the bright side, this has prompted me to coin a new term, called One Dimensional Thinking

It's actually not two-dimensional thinking, it's one-dimensional thinking, so I'm going to go back and edit my previous pages.

I wasn't referring to you. I was actually kind of continuing along the line of reasoning you were referring to. I think you're confused. 

Bah, don't worry about it.

I don't consider my day productive unless I insult somebody.  So even if it's not intentional, I'll take it.. LOL

Ok Bibleboy, time to take off the gloves...

Congrats! You grabbed your shovel and headed out into the field to find some shit you could take out of context to prove, what? That you can dig up something from another, unrelated thread and then generalize that this guy is somehow representative of all atheists and atheism in general?

I can point you to a web page where a guy suggests that anal fisting is mandated and approved by the Bible. But I'd be a total fucking moron to imply that because of this, all Christians like to have someone's fist shoved up their ass.

But apparently such ridiculous generalizations are not beyond you.

Congrats! It took you less than 24 hours to pretty much remove any doubt that you're a fucking ignorant idiot. And don't think any of us believe the "I'm a deist" bullshit either.

 By the way, you haven't proved shit. 

 I think the Christian god as outlined in the bible is a megalomaniacal, insecure, tyrannical, vain, childish, immoral, sadistic bastard.   That doesn't mean I hate god.   I think Darth Vader was a prick too, but he's a fucking ficticious character.   Some of us who aren't mentally retarded recognize that it's not rational to harbor contempt for things that don't exist!  And people in the thread admit this as well, by prefacing their statements by suggesting that if god existed, they wouldn't have much respect for him.  Most of us feel the same way.  There's no hate involved.  I hate god as much as I hate the easter bunny, which means I don't waste time harboring emotions for non-existent constructs.  That's what you goofball, mentally retarded theists do.  

My point is this, if you did believe that the God of the Bible existed, you would hate him with a passion.

I told you I was working on reconciling myself with the Bible.  No duh.

Not in this thread, no.  That wasn't my intent.  My intent was to introduce myself, not get in an argument with someone who's going to blow up in my face.

Like what?  Forgive me for being seemingly ignorant, but the only other form of ancient communication I can think of is stuff passed down orally, but stories passed down this way tend to be a bit sketchy in terms of accuracy.

Instictual urges. Mothers don't love their offspring because they are taught to by text, or orally. Language doesn't even enter the picture. It isn't needed. If anything, language becomes weak and impotent when it is drawn into the shadow of our intuition. Mothers don't read the Bible, or the Qur'an, or the Hadith, or the Vedas, or the Tanakh, or the Kojiki, or the Yasna, or the Principia Discordia. But they know, instinctively, that they are to love their kids and that their children are to be kept safe and healthy.

 Do animals follow your God's commands for them? How? Do they have their own holy scripts, which they read and interpret daily so that they know how to behave to please your God? Or do they already know? Is it written down inside of them already? Are we no better than the animals that we must read to know our purpose and place?

Perhaps he wants them in heaven, perhaps it's their time to go home.  After giving it some thought, I really don't know, my mere mortal mind cannot understand it.

Thanks!   The Bush administration has taken the "war on terror" way too far....we knew that Iraq never had WMDs, we just had to get in there to get their oil.  It's a war to be sustained, not won.  I'm hoping Ron Paul will win...I know he's a Republican candidate, but he seems more libertarian and out of all of them he seems to know best how to fix this mess we call America.  (not to change the subject, I just felt like saying that).

I see what you mean.  Perhaps God isn't as involved as I thought, and it's free will that has gotten us into this mess.  I agree though, helping those who are in need is a good way to make your life count.

If the Bible is true, then it follows that mankind is in a corrupted, sinful state, not the original state in which he was intended to be.  I know you're just going to say "well this is crap becaues I don't believe the Bible", but it supports my view of things.

Ok, I see where you're going.  Let me back up and change my point.  I don't think God wants believing in the Bible to be instinctual, because he wants you to truly believe him.  He doesn't want it to be automatic, he wants you to choose to believe him over something else.  This is why if the Bible is true, it's not just instinctual to believe in the Bible, God wants you to make the choice.  I hope this helps explain things, and yes I am ditching my previous point because I realize that it's not right.

Sure, whatever.  Lol.