New theist here...

Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
New theist here...

Hi everyone, I'm a theist (or rather deist). I don't currently believe in any religion, though I am starting to reconcile myself with the Bible. I've been reading these forums for a while, and I know I'm going to get a lot of crap for being someone who is starting to believe the Bible, but whatever. I'd like to point out that you guys are much more educated than Christians, I like these forums because it's a great way to explore and further understand your beliefs. It's truly a researched belief that you guys have here, it's not blind faith like a lot of people, and I want to say that while I don't agree with what you believe, I admire the fact that yours is a very strong belief, not one taken from thin air. So yeah, that's pretty much it, I don't really have anything else to say.


nedbrek
Theist
Posts: 195
Joined: 2006-12-08
User is offlineOffline
Hi Edison, I am a theist

Hi Edison, I am a theist (Christian to be exact). I like to think I have a "truly researched belief" Smiling

If you have any questions, feel free to post them here or private message me.


shelley
ModeratorRRS local affiliate
shelley's picture
Posts: 1859
Joined: 2006-12-26
User is offlineOffline
welcome edison.  i'm glad

welcome edison.  i'm glad you decided to start using the forums.  i spent about six months just looking at the page myself.  although i have to admit there is so much content here that it's easy to get swept away reading... anyway, happy exploring!


Zombie
RRS local affiliate
Zombie's picture
Posts: 573
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Welcome aboard, I look

Welcome aboard, I look forward to your forum posts. Smiling


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
Odd.  I went from theist,

Odd.  I went from theist, to deist, to atheist.

Strange for me to think of changing from a deist to theist.  The opposite route of myself.  But logically it makes sense to me.  Just depends where you are coming from in your beliefs. 

Welcome.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Reconciling the

Reconciling the Bible?

Why?

Seems kinda lazy to me. 


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
Watcher wrote: Strange for

Watcher wrote:

Strange for me to think of changing from a deist to theist.  The opposite route of myself.  But logically it makes sense to me.  Just depends where you are coming from in your beliefs.

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Reconciling the Bible?

Why?

To me deism is a scary situation to be in.  You believe that there is a God, but you don't know what God wants you to do in life, whether it be worshipping God vs. leaving God alone, killing people vs. saving people, etc.  In essence, you don't know if you're doing what God would like you to do or if you're doing the opposite.


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent wrote:To me

Edison Trent wrote:

To me deism is a scary situation to be in.  You believe that there is a God, but you don't know what God wants you to do in life, whether it be worshipping God vs. leaving God alone, killing people vs. saving people, etc.  In essence, you don't know if you're doing what God would like you to do or if you're doing the opposite.

I found deism as somewhat comforting.  It left out punishment or reward.  It just pointed to some intelligence that created everything, but it doesn't care about us pathetic humans being "good" or "evil".

I feel so much calmness as an atheist but so much turbulence as a theist.  Theism is so full of "this is right", "this is wrong", "you will pay if you make a mistake".  Bullshit.  Everything will be "ok" no matter what.  Opens a lot of doors.  Some good, some bad.  But still.  The end result is the same. 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


illbeats
illbeats's picture
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-11-08
User is offlineOffline
I think you may be defining

I think you may be defining deism incorrectly when you say you dont know what a god would wnat you to do . 

 

If deism is the path then therte is nothing a god wnats from you ... it created and then washed it hands of it.  

The loss/giult over what to do is more of a path to thiesm not deism so it seems  you are where you need to be now.

 

I would humbly suggest that the world can be just as wonderfull and awes inspiring with out any ism's at all. including athe-

 

Many a man have failed because his wish bone is where his back bone should have been. " not written by me"


illbeats
illbeats's picture
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-11-08
User is offlineOffline
Im sorry i spoke out of

Im sorry i spoke out of turn.

 

Welcome to the forum's  " im new to"   


I AM GOD AS YOU
Superfan
Posts: 4793
Joined: 2007-09-29
User is offlineOffline
   stay in touch, glad you

   stay in touch, glad you are re reading the bible, I am an  >ATHEIST<  jesus/buddha fan .... AWAKEN , all is one .... all is connected .... the bible is mostly old politics .... with some great wisdom too ....


I AM GOD AS YOU
Superfan
Posts: 4793
Joined: 2007-09-29
User is offlineOffline
.... for what it's

.... for what it's worth, here a bit of an email I sent yesterday, unedited ( and drunk to boot ! )

As an Atheist, I enjoy challanging militant atheists with Jesus verses they attack. ( and helping lazy xians ) Very often they just haven't thought them thru. A few examples. Think a minute on the verse before reading my reply; then read the verse again and send your thoughts. God will be proud of you .....

"If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

--- Hey most everyone was especially all fucked up by the religion/gov of that time, and Jesus had said previously that he came to help the lost and blind. Hating your own misery and reality and life, was and is the way to making change ....

"All that ever came before me [Jesus] are thieves and robbers..." (John 10:8 )

--- Well yes to degrees. It is our human condition to want more than we need, and that makes us miserable and speads greed, the creed of robbers. Jesus was making a point about all sharing.

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish..." (Matthew 5:29)

--- This is making a point of the drastic measure we must take to rid ourselves of wrong thinking and practices. Not a litteral statement.

 

"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Matthew 21:22)

--- First of all you have to pray/meditate for what is ALL truely correct which will bring TRUE believing, and so then recieved, and understood. What we personally believe is our personal reality. You have to back up to the core of Jesus messages, before you can pray/meditate correctly. I recommend starting here, "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34) .... and , Behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)

Jesus/Buddha I defend, not god of abe and those religions ....


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15862
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Quote:

Quote:
I know I'm going to get a lot of crap for being someone who is starting to believe the Bible, but whatever.

I admire you for facing that reality. Most come in here with a "kumbia" utopian delusion that the exchanges will be out of an episode of "Leave it to Beaver".

My best friend from my last job, who I wouldn't trade for the world was an Evangelical Christian. The great thing about our relationship is that each of us could be blunt about the criticisms of each others claims to the point of blasphemy without taking it personally. She had the ability to seperate "her the individual" and "her claims" as two seperate subjects.

I like that fact that you are facing this without a utopain delusion that we are going to go, "Isnt that nice" when you claim something.

You will find people here with different comfort leves as far as how they make exchanges. Some here prefure the quite library type disscussions, while others, like me, dont mind taking the "verbal gloves off".

Eathier way, I think it is safe to say most here DO disire that you at a minimum challenge yourself to ask WHY, NOT WHAT, but why you believe what you believe.

Me for example, I reject all deity claims, even the Jeffersonian deist claim, for one simple reason, lack of evidence. I reject deity claims for the same reason you reject claims of Thor or Vishnu or Isis. I treat all these claims, including the "hocus pocus" of Jesus as being in the same catigory of Harry Potter flying around on a broomstick.

I cant speak for others nore are others here as blunt as I am. But I am one to cut to the chase without sugar coating my opinion. I cant hate you because I dont know you personally. But I will not lie to you and say I find your deity claim to be in any sense credible.

So, you've gotten a taste of me. I can say that you will find out that there is alot of common ground individuals can find with other individuals regarding other subjects than religion.

For example. I love the Redskins, even though they suck. I love ancient greek plays like Les Estrada and Oedipus Rex. I love music including jazz and Metallica and 80s rock. My favorite tv shows are Hawii-5-0 A-team, Moonlighting and Law and Order SVU.

So keep in mind that when some of us "blast" you, we are adressing your claims, not you the person. If you do that, you will find that your stay will be long and informative. But if you are too sensitive, even the PC atheists here will end up offending you when you mistake a rebuttle of an argument for an insult.

So, it is great that you accept that you jumped into a shark tank. But that doesnt make us Hitler lovers or that we barbaque kittens. It just means that if we think you are full of guff on a point we are going to tell you. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
illbeats wrote: I think

illbeats wrote:

I think you may be defining deism incorrectly when you say you dont know what a god would wnat you to do . 

 

If deism is the path then therte is nothing a god wnats from you ... it created and then washed it hands of it.  

The loss/giult over what to do is more of a path to thiesm not deism so it seems  you are where you need to be now.

 

I would humbly suggest that the world can be just as wonderfull and awes inspiring with out any ism's at all. including athe-

I see what you're saying about deism, but I have this underlying feeling that everything in life has a purpose, a meaning.  I feel like God wants me to do something, and I certainly hope that God didn't just create the world and then leave it.  I do agree that the world is certainly awe-inspiring, science has just started to uncover the vast complexity of it all, and to me it speaks of a designer.

Brian37 wrote:

I admire you for facing that reality. Most come in here with a "kumbia" utopian delusion that the exchanges will be out of an episode of "Leave it to Beaver".

My best friend from my last job, who I wouldn't trade for the world was an Evangelical Christian. The great thing about our relationship is that each of us could be blunt about the criticisms of each others claims to the point of blasphemy without taking it personally. She had the ability to seperate "her the individual" and "her claims" as two seperate subjects.

I like that fact that you are facing this without a utopain delusion that we are going to go, "Isnt that nice" when you claim something.

It's wiser and much more enjoyable to do it this way, the Christian theists who come here often come with the view of "I'M GONNA BLOW THESE GUYS AWAY!!!", which is very unreal to say the least.  They usually get shot down within a few weeks and don't return, which is usually good because having them around is annoying.  Having said that, I try not to appeal to my emotions, rather I look for good, solid arguments, and I look forward to the discussion and debate that goes on here.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15862
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent

Edison Trent wrote:

illbeats wrote:

I think you may be defining deism incorrectly when you say you dont know what a god would wnat you to do .

 

If deism is the path then therte is nothing a god wnats from you ... it created and then washed it hands of it.

The loss/giult over what to do is more of a path to thiesm not deism so it seems you are where you need to be now.

 

I would humbly suggest that the world can be just as wonderfull and awes inspiring with out any ism's at all. including athe-

I see what you're saying about deism, but I have this underlying feeling that everything in life has a purpose, a meaning. I feel like God wants me to do something, and I certainly hope that God didn't just create the world and then leave it. I do agree that the world is certainly awe-inspiring, science has just started to uncover the vast complexity of it all, and to me it speaks of a designer.

Brian37 wrote:

I admire you for facing that reality. Most come in here with a "kumbia" utopian delusion that the exchanges will be out of an episode of "Leave it to Beaver".

My best friend from my last job, who I wouldn't trade for the world was an Evangelical Christian. The great thing about our relationship is that each of us could be blunt about the criticisms of each others claims to the point of blasphemy without taking it personally. She had the ability to seperate "her the individual" and "her claims" as two seperate subjects.

I like that fact that you are facing this without a utopain delusion that we are going to go, "Isnt that nice" when you claim something.

It's wiser and much more enjoyable to do it this way, the Christian theists who come here often come with the view of "I'M GONNA BLOW THESE GUYS AWAY!!!", which is very unreal to say the least. They usually get shot down within a few weeks and don't return, which is usually good because having them around is annoying. Having said that, I try not to appeal to my emotions, rather I look for good, solid arguments, and I look forward to the discussion and debate that goes on here.

I think you are going to have a long stay here and it is certainly refreshing.

On a side note, if I could magically go back in time, I would love to debate Thomas Jefferson on his claim of diesm. I dont think he would be offended in the least if I said, "I'm sorry Tom, I think you are full of it".

His response would be, "Ok Brian, why do you say that, what is your reason for that position".

Here's a quote that I think supports that,

"Question with boldness even the existance of God, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear"

He also once equated in an April 11th l823(I hope I got that date right)Anywho, the letter was to John Adams where he classed the Virgin Birth and Death of Jesus to being the same catigory as Minervia being born out of the brain of Jupiter.

I would hardly think such a great mind would be offended to my bold scrutiny. I think he would only be offended if I made no attempt to support  my postition.

So welcome to the frey. I hope you dont mind me using you as a chewtoy, but I have no want or disire to hate you merely on this issue no matter how "full of it" I may think you are.

LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE! Then lets go have a beer. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent

Edison Trent wrote:

Watcher wrote:

Strange for me to think of changing from a deist to theist. The opposite route of myself. But logically it makes sense to me. Just depends where you are coming from in your beliefs.

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Reconciling the Bible?

Why?

To me deism is a scary situation to be in. You believe that there is a God, but you don't know what God wants you to do in life, whether it be worshipping God vs. leaving God alone, killing people vs. saving people, etc. In essence, you don't know if you're doing what God would like you to do or if you're doing the opposite.

I can understand your desire for direction, but I still feel it necessary to criticize your jump to the Bible. If your God wanted you to do something, then he/she/it would either come down personally and tell you, or, in a more omni-whatever fashion, he/she/it would imprint it's desires onto you directly. If you want to find out what your God wants from you, I suggest you look inside yourself. There's a whole lot more written there than there is in some book. 


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent wrote: I see

Edison Trent wrote:

I see what you're saying about deism, but I have this underlying feeling that everything in life has a purpose, a meaning.  I feel like God wants me to do something, and I certainly hope that God didn't just create the world and then leave it. 

If you personally feel inside of yourself that god wants you to do something why are you seeking other people's answer to what he wants you to do?

I think you should figure that out yourself.  Not let some denomination of the christian faith tell you.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


Jacob Cordingley
SuperfanBronze Member
Jacob Cordingley's picture
Posts: 1484
Joined: 2007-03-18
User is offlineOffline
Welcome Edison.

Welcome Edison.


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
LosingStreak06 wrote: I

LosingStreak06 wrote:

I can understand your desire for direction, but I still feel it necessary to criticize your jump to the Bible. If your God wanted you to do something, then he/she/it would either come down personally and tell you, or, in a more omni-whatever fashion, he/she/it would imprint it's desires onto you directly. If you want to find out what your God wants from you, I suggest you look inside yourself. There's a whole lot more written there than there is in some book.

Perhaps God already did come down, in the form of Jesus.  Just a thought.  Or perhaps God has revealed themselves through some writing.

Watcher wrote:

If you personally feel inside of yourself that god wants you to do something why are you seeking other people's answer to what he wants you to do?

I think you should figure that out yourself.  Not let some denomination of the christian faith tell you.

I am personally trying to figure it out myself, but asking others can be a good way to get insight I might not have.  If I come to the conclusion that the Bible is true, I'm not going to go join some denomination, Christians in America don't give a damn for God, they  just want to feel comfortable with their fire insurance.  I don't even know if I'll be able to call myself a Christian if my conclusion on the Bible is positive, maybe a God-follower or something similar.


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent

Edison Trent wrote:

Perhaps God already did come down, in the form of Jesus. Just a thought. Or perhaps God has revealed themselves through some writing.

No God that reveals itself through writing is worth worshipping. Text is a rather crap form of communication. 


nedbrek
Theist
Posts: 195
Joined: 2006-12-08
User is offlineOffline
LosingStreak06 wrote: If

LosingStreak06 wrote:

If you want to find out what your God wants from you, I suggest you look inside yourself. There's a whole lot more written there than there is in some book.

I've looked inside myself. I found my heart to be desperately wicked, and self-deceptive. Full of selfish desires and, ultimately, meaningless.

You? Smiling


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
LosingStreak06 wrote: No

LosingStreak06 wrote:

No God that reveals itself through writing is worth worshipping. Text is a rather crap form of communication.

Why?  Text has been around since forever and will always be used.  What better way?  Do you wish God to send you an email or give you a phone call each day revealing his plan for you? Laughing out loud

nedbrek wrote:

I've looked inside myself. I found my heart to be desperately wicked, and self-deceptive. Full of selfish desires and, ultimately, meaningless.

You? Smiling

I'm a pretty bad person deep down inside too.  I've conquered some of those things, but I do realize that I am ultimately self-seeking.


geirj
geirj's picture
Posts: 719
Joined: 2007-06-19
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent wrote: I'm a

Edison Trent wrote:

I'm a pretty bad person deep down inside too.  I've conquered some of those things, but I do realize that I am ultimately self-seeking.

What gives you the idea that you're a bad person? Have you been involved in thievery, killing, physical abuse of another person?

We're all self-seeking, or I should say self-preserving, because that's instinct. Not just because we like living, but how are we supposed to do something for someone else if we don't take care of ourselves first? It's like they tell you during the safety instructions on an airplane - if you're travelling with a child and there's a loss of cabin pressure, always put your oxygen mask on first before you put the child's on. I don't understand the guilt in any religion that makes someone feel bad for doing something for themselves.

And let me ask you this: Why do you think God wants you to do something special, yet he apparently doesn't want someone who dies as a result of violence in Darfur to do something special? What is the more reasonable explanation? That there's a God, or that you were just lucky enough to be born into a developed society that allows you the luxury of thinking about such things?

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent wrote: I don't

Edison Trent wrote:
I don't agree with what you believe, I admire the fact that yours is a very strong belief, not one taken from thin air.

What belief? The only thing I believe is that I'm thoroughly sick of people calling atheism a "belief".

Is not collecting stamps a hobby?

What is the doctrine and dogma of those who don't believe in the eixstence of the tooth fairy?

Is Atheism a belief?


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
nedbrek wrote: I've looked

nedbrek wrote:

I've looked inside myself. I found my heart to be desperately wicked, and self-deceptive. Full of selfish desires and, ultimately, meaningless.

You? Smiling

Hey, check it out.. it's a rare glimpse of the Christian mating call..

 


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
Pile wrote: What belief?

Pile wrote:

What belief? The only thing I believe is that I'm thoroughly sick of people calling atheism a "belief".

Here, let's give you a summary of the two types of people to help you out.

A. Those who believe there is a god (or gods)

B. Those who believe there is no god

I'm guessing you are B.  You can believe something without knowing it 100%, you don't have to worry about me using the "there are no atheists" fallacy.

Pile wrote:

Hey, check it out.. it's a rare glimpse of the Christian mating call..

ROFL.  I don't think so, it's just the feeling of the need for forgiveness. 

geirj wrote:

What gives you the idea that you're a bad person? Have you been involved in thievery, killing, physical abuse of another person?

I haven't been quite that bad, but I have done a number of bad things in my past that I wish I hadn't.  I won't delve into them here because that would require a very long post.


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
Quote: And let me ask you

Quote:

And let me ask you this: Why do you think God wants you to do something special, yet he apparently doesn't want someone who dies as a result of violence in Darfur to do something special? What is the more reasonable explanation? That there's a God, or that you were just lucky enough to be born into a developed society that allows you the luxury of thinking about such things?

Let me think about this one.  I know what you're getting at, but I'll think it through and hopefully come up with a logical answer. 


nedbrek
Theist
Posts: 195
Joined: 2006-12-08
User is offlineOffline
Pile wrote: Hey, check it

Pile wrote:
Hey, check it out.. it's a rare glimpse of the Christian mating call..

Hehe, I like it.  My local church meets in a public school.  It's sometimes funny to compare the posters on the wall to Christian doctrine.

For example, my friend and I were helping clean up afterwards.  A poster on the wall said, "We're all special".  I said, "Hmm, I thought we were all desperately wicked, and children of wrath." 

 

The point isn't to compare yourself to yourself (or your neighbor).  Kilogram bars are compared to "the" kilogram (in Paris).

We should compare ourselves to the standard of goodness, God.  And that is when we find ourselves coming up short...


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent wrote:

Edison Trent wrote:

Pile wrote:

What belief? The only thing I believe is that I'm thoroughly sick of people calling atheism a "belief".

Here, let's give you a summary of the two types of people to help you out.

A. Those who believe there is a god (or gods)

B. Those who believe there is no god

I'm guessing you are B. You can believe something without knowing it 100%, you don't have to worry about me using the "there are no atheists" fallacy.

I understand you theists are not as familiar with science and logic, and for some reason you seem to think in BLACK & WHITE, but that's not the way reality works.... Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean GODIDIT! And there aren't only two types of "believers". That's BS.

A = Theist

B = Strong Atheist

Most here are C (weak agnostic atheists)

Now ask how many here are "strong atheists" and you'll find that almost nobody is.

You are confusing generic atheism with a very specific, narrow, atypical type of atheism, which is almost as presumptuous as theism.

There is a distinction.

I'm going to say this again... open your brain and recognize this:

ATHEISM IS A LACK OF BELIEF

It is NOT A BELIEF.

And the "There are no atheists" fallacy is tired, boring, and not relevant.

The first thing you need to realize is that things aren't BLACK/WHITE. There are shades of grey everywhere. You are not equipped to debate with 99% of the people here until you realize that. And when you suggest all stances on supernatural issues can fit neatly into one of two distinct boxes, you are still thinking in one dimension, in black and white. You're not in the real world. You're not thinking in real-world terms yet.


Thomathy
Superfan
Thomathy's picture
Posts: 1861
Joined: 2007-08-20
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent wrote:

Edison Trent wrote:

Pile wrote:

What belief? The only thing I believe is that I'm thoroughly sick of people calling atheism a "belief".

Here, let's give you a summary of the two types of people to help you out.

A. Those who believe there is a god (or gods)

B. Those who believe there is no god

I'm guessing you are B. You can believe something without knowing it 100%, you don't have to worry about me using the "there are no atheists" fallacy.

This is annoying. No atheist has a belief about god. It is a non-belief. People who don't believe in the tooth fairy don't have a belief about the non-belief of the tooth fairy. I hope you see what I am getting at here. Look around the site and you'll find some essays about the exact fallacy your committing, or try reading Piles' post and follow the link in it to the material.

No atheist will ever report to know for 100% that god does not exist. I know god doesn't exist as well as I know that Thor doesn't exist, which is essentially 100%, but necessarily not. Do not accuse Atheists of having a belief about god, they have no such thing. The fact that people do have beliefs about god is why it's necessary for there to be identified Atheists. If no one believed in 'god' as no one believes in Thor there would be no reason to identify them as such. We don't all identify ourselves as Athorist, though as a technicality we all are.

edit: Perhaps I should denote the distinction that I am a strong Atheist in the sense that I know god doesn't exist as well as I know Thor does not exist. I also subsribe to the concept of god being a broken one, incoherent and useless. There really is not reason for strong Atheists to have the stigma about them that they do. It's not particularly illogical to take an necessarily undefinable concept that is supposed to be 'supernatural' (another incoherent and useless term) and combine this with a total utter lack of evidence for its existence and come to the conclusion that it does not exist, as well as you might come to the conclusion that Thor or the tooth fairy don't exist. To better distinguish ourselves it may become prudent to move away from the use of 'strong' and 'weak' as they fail to accomodate the particular Atheism that Dawkins and others purport to be members of. As a techincality, rather than being a strong Atheist (because at its severest it is intellectually dishonest) I am of the Dawkins variety.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
This is that same kind of

This is that same kind of "two-dimensional thinking" that prompts theists to claim that "atheists hate god".

It's almost as if there are entire areas of their brain which have been put in stand-by mode.

On the bright side, this has prompted me to coin a new term, called One Dimensional Thinking

It's actually not two-dimensional thinking, it's one-dimensional thinking, so I'm going to go back and edit my previous pages.

 

 


Thomathy
Superfan
Thomathy's picture
Posts: 1861
Joined: 2007-08-20
User is offlineOffline
Pile wrote: This is that

Pile wrote:

This is that same kind of "two-dimensional thinking" that prompts theists to claim that "atheists hate god".

It's almost as if there are entire areas of their brain which have been put in stand-by mode.

 

If you're refering to my post, I call bullshit.  Don't accuse me of two-dimensional thinking when you purport there to be only two types of Atheists and to place people into one category or the other and write off 'strong' Atheists.  I've never written anything that could be construed as hate for god and if someone wishes to read something that's not there, so be it.  Don't you think it's a bit stupid to suggest to another Atheist that he hates god?  You're well aware that Atheists do not hate non-existant things.  Don't insult me further. 

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
Thomathy wrote:

Thomathy wrote:
Pile wrote:

This is that same kind of "two-dimensional thinking" that prompts theists to claim that "atheists hate god".

It's almost as if there are entire areas of their brain which have been put in stand-by mode.

 

If you're refering to my post, I call bullshit. Don't accuse me of two-dimensional thinking when you purport there to be only two types of Atheists and to place people into one category or the other and write off 'strong' Atheists. I've never written anything that could be construed as hate for god and if someone wishes to read something that's not there, so be it. Don't you think it's a bit stupid to suggest to another Atheist that he hates god? You're well aware that Atheists do not hate non-existant things. Don't insult me further.

 

I wasn't referring to you. I was actually kind of continuing along the line of reasoning you were referring to. I think you're confused. 

 


Thomathy
Superfan
Thomathy's picture
Posts: 1861
Joined: 2007-08-20
User is offlineOffline
I agree, I am definitely

I agree, I am definitely confused!  Profuse apologies!  I think I understand to whom you were actually responding to now.  I was just anticipating a response like that to my post and I jumped on yours as it followed mine.  Also, I can't explain my hostility tonight... so I'm sorry if I'm coming off strong (haha!).  Really, I'm so sorry, Pile.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
Bah, don't worry about

Bah, don't worry about it.

I don't consider my day productive unless I insult somebody.  So even if it's not intentional, I'll take it.. LOL

 

 


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
Thomathy wrote: Perhaps I

Thomathy wrote:

Perhaps I should denote the distinction that I am a strong Atheist in the sense that I know god doesn't exist as well as I know Thor does not exist.

So you know everything then.  You can see the entire universe, and know that God isn't hiding somewhere or in some other dimension.  Right....

Pile wrote:

This is that same kind of "two-dimensional thinking" that prompts theists to claim that "atheists hate god".

Thomathy wrote:

Don't you think it's a bit stupid to suggest to another Atheist that he hates god?

I think you two just lost out...see the following quotes.

Gauche wrote:

So in the unlikely event that this occurs ill be telling your god to suck the shit out of my asshole and hope he dont choke on it.

Big Willem wrote:

But for arguments sake, lets say it would convince me. Then I would be fucked. If the god of the bible was real, I would still not like or love him.

DrTerwilliker wrote:

I would probably end up believing, but I'd still think God was a total sadist and completely off his gord, so I hope I'd have the courage to rebel against him.

Teknison wrote:

If we accepted the bible to be 100% truth, I would surely hate god.

Well, well, well.  Atheists don't hate God do they?  (Quotes taken from this thread)


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent

Edison Trent wrote:

Teknison wrote:

If we accepted the bible to be 100% truth, I would surely hate god.

Well, well, well. Atheists don't hate God do they? (Quotes taken from this thread)

Ok Bibleboy, time to take off the gloves...

Congrats! You grabbed your shovel and headed out into the field to find some shit you could take out of context to prove, what? That you can dig up something from another, unrelated thread and then generalize that this guy is somehow representative of all atheists and atheism in general?

I can point you to a web page where a guy suggests that anal fisting is mandated and approved by the Bible. But I'd be a total fucking moron to imply that because of this, all Christians like to have someone's fist shoved up their ass.

But apparently such ridiculous generalizations are not beyond you.

Congrats! It took you less than 24 hours to pretty much remove any doubt that you're a fucking ignorant idiot. And don't think any of us believe the "I'm a deist" bullshit either.

 By the way, you haven't proved shit. 

 I think the Christian god as outlined in the bible is a megalomaniacal, insecure, tyrannical, vain, childish, immoral, sadistic bastard.   That doesn't mean I hate god.   I think Darth Vader was a prick too, but he's a fucking ficticious character.   Some of us who aren't mentally retarded recognize that it's not rational to harbor contempt for things that don't exist!  And people in the thread admit this as well, by prefacing their statements by suggesting that if god existed, they wouldn't have much respect for him.  Most of us feel the same way.  There's no hate involved.  I hate god as much as I hate the easter bunny, which means I don't waste time harboring emotions for non-existent constructs.  That's what you goofball, mentally retarded theists do.  

 

 


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent wrote: Why?

Edison Trent wrote:

Why? Text has been around since forever and will always be used. What better way? Do you wish God to send you an email or give you a phone call each day revealing his plan for you? Laughing out loud

You're looking forwards instead of backwards, my boy. Text hasn't been around forever. There are far more ancient and powerful means of communication than the watery trite we see today.


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
Pile wrote: Congrats! You

Pile wrote:

Congrats! You grabbed your shovel and headed out into the field to find some shit you could take out of context to prove, what? That you can dig up something from another, unrelated thread and then generalize that this guy is somehow representative of all atheists and atheism in general?

My point is this, if you did believe that the God of the Bible existed, you would hate him with a passion.

Pile wrote:

Congrats! It took you less than 24 hours to pretty much remove any doubt that you're a fucking ignorant idiot. And don't think any of us believe the "I'm a deist" bullshit either.

I told you I was working on reconciling myself with the Bible.  No duh.

Pile wrote:

By the way, you haven't proved shit.

Not in this thread, no.  That wasn't my intent.  My intent was to introduce myself, not get in an argument with someone who's going to blow up in my face.

LosingStreak06 wrote:

You're looking forwards instead of backwards, my boy. Text hasn't been around forever. There are far more ancient and powerful means of communication than the watery trite we see today.

Like what?  Forgive me for being seemingly ignorant, but the only other form of ancient communication I can think of is stuff passed down orally, but stories passed down this way tend to be a bit sketchy in terms of accuracy.


Thomathy
Superfan
Thomathy's picture
Posts: 1861
Joined: 2007-08-20
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent

Edison Trent wrote:

Thomathy wrote:

Perhaps I should denote the distinction that I am a strong Atheist in the sense that I know god doesn't exist as well as I know Thor does not exist.

So you know everything then. You can see the entire universe, and know that God isn't hiding somewhere or in some other dimension. Right.... 

Pile wrote:

Well, you're not the first person to stoop to this level of stupidity. I don't represent myself as knowing everything and I don't take kindly to being told that I do. Perhaps you failed to read anything else I wrote? I know that god doesn't exist as well as I know that Thor doesn't exist. I mean here, that there is no evidence for either, both are broken terms referring to them same broken and incoherent concept, that are supposed to be of some immaterial nature (purely impossible). Do you believe in fairies? Do you believe in Thor? Do you believe in a god merely because such a character, and I am humouring you by even considering this, might lurk in the cosmos? It's absurd to even have to respond to this sort of tripe. Why don't you educate yourself a little more before you come to a forum like this and post inanity?

Thomathy wrote:

Don't you think it's a bit stupid to suggest to another Atheist that he hates god?

I think you two just lost out...see the following quotes.

Gauche wrote:

So in the unlikely event that this occurs ill be telling your god to suck the shit out of my asshole and hope he dont choke on it.

Big Willem wrote:

But for arguments sake, lets say it would convince me. Then I would be fucked. If the god of the bible was real, I would still not like or love him.

DrTerwilliker wrote:

I would probably end up believing, but I'd still think God was a total sadist and completely off his gord, so I hope I'd have the courage to rebel against him.

Teknison wrote:

If we accepted the bible to be 100% truth, I would surely hate god.

Well, well, well. Atheists don't hate God do they? (Quotes taken from this thread)

 

Only one of these people says they'd hate god, specifically the Christian god, if and only if that god actually existed. I would hate such a creature as well. They're speaking in hypothetics. If you knew anything about the Christian god as loosely detailed in the bible, then you'd know the character to be as worthy of hate as any other fictional character that has those characteristics. Don't pretend you've made a point, becuse you haven't. No Atheist hates god, because that would necessitate a rejected belief in god (in this case the Christian god), which would require god to actually be real. Anyone can feel free to hate any fictional character they want in hypothetical cirumstances. I happen to hate Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights, but I know Wuthering Heights is a work of fiction and that Heathcliff doesn't exist. I hate the Christian god in the same capacity. I don't hate the Christian god in a way that would indicate I really believe he does exist and choose rather to hate him and disbeliev in him. Don't try to pull this again.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent

Edison Trent wrote:

LosingStreak06 wrote:

You're looking forwards instead of backwards, my boy. Text hasn't been around forever. There are far more ancient and powerful means of communication than the watery trite we see today.

Like what? Forgive me for being seemingly ignorant, but the only other form of ancient communication I can think of is stuff passed down orally, but stories passed down this way tend to be a bit sketchy in terms of accuracy.

Instictual urges. Mothers don't love their offspring because they are taught to by text, or orally. Language doesn't even enter the picture. It isn't needed. If anything, language becomes weak and impotent when it is drawn into the shadow of our intuition. Mothers don't read the Bible, or the Qur'an, or the Hadith, or the Vedas, or the Tanakh, or the Kojiki, or the Yasna, or the Principia Discordia. But they know, instinctively, that they are to love their kids and that their children are to be kept safe and healthy.

 Do animals follow your God's commands for them? How? Do they have their own holy scripts, which they read and interpret daily so that they know how to behave to please your God? Or do they already know? Is it written down inside of them already? Are we no better than the animals that we must read to know our purpose and place?


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
LosingStreak06

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Instictual urges. Mothers don't love their offspring because they are taught to by text, or orally. Language doesn't even enter the picture. It isn't needed. If anything, language becomes weak and impotent when it is drawn into the shadow of our intuition. Mothers don't read the Bible, or the Qur'an, or the Hadith, or the Vedas, or the Tanakh, or the Kojiki, or the Yasna, or the Principia Discordia. But they know, instinctively, that they are to love their kids and that their children are to be kept safe and healthy.

 Do animals follow your God's commands for them? How? Do they have their own holy scripts, which they read and interpret daily so that they know how to behave to please your God? Or do they already know? Is it written down inside of them already? Are we no better than the animals that we must read to know our purpose and place?

It could be argued that it is one's instinct to believe in a God, though it would seem reason has taken care of that at this forum.  Once most people believe in Christianity they have a hard time leaving.  Even the guys at the DC blog admit that it's hard to not believe in Christianity.  There is also great temptation to believe by faith.  Perhaps the "God-shaped vacuum" is another instinctual evidence for God.  I'm kind of grabbing blindly in the air here, but I'll try to come up with more concrete examples.


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
Quote: And let me ask you

Quote:

And let me ask you this: Why do you think God wants you to do something special, yet he apparently doesn't want someone who dies as a result of violence in Darfur to do something special? What is the more reasonable explanation? That there's a God, or that you were just lucky enough to be born into a developed society that allows you the luxury of thinking about such things?

Perhaps he wants them in heaven, perhaps it's their time to go home.  After giving it some thought, I really don't know, my mere mortal mind cannot understand it.


geirj
geirj's picture
Posts: 719
Joined: 2007-06-19
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent

Edison Trent wrote:

Quote:

And let me ask you this: Why do you think God wants you to do something special, yet he apparently doesn't want someone who dies as a result of violence in Darfur to do something special? What is the more reasonable explanation? That there's a God, or that you were just lucky enough to be born into a developed society that allows you the luxury of thinking about such things?

Perhaps he wants them in heaven, perhaps it's their time to go home.  After giving it some thought, I really don't know, my mere mortal mind cannot understand it.

I think you're a pretty smart guy. I like your signature in any event, so at least we agree on something. Smiling

So what is it that your mortal mind can't comprehend?

What makes more sense:

a) God wants people in heaven at certain times. Some people die easy, painless deaths. Others die horrific, painful deaths.

or

b) There is no God. Some places on earth are violent and proverty-stricken, others are developed and comfortable. You're born where you're born.

If there is a God, and he really wants you to do something, you could probably start by helping the poor. That's a no-brainer.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
geirj wrote: I think

geirj wrote:

I think you're a pretty smart guy. I like your signature in any event, so at least we agree on something. Smiling

Thanks! Smiling  The Bush administration has taken the "war on terror" way too far....we knew that Iraq never had WMDs, we just had to get in there to get their oil.  It's a war to be sustained, not won.  I'm hoping Ron Paul will win...I know he's a Republican candidate, but he seems more libertarian and out of all of them he seems to know best how to fix this mess we call America.  (not to change the subject, I just felt like saying that).

geirj wrote:

So what is it that your mortal mind can't comprehend?

What makes more sense:

a) God wants people in heaven at certain times. Some people die easy, painless deaths. Others die horrific, painful deaths.

or

b) There is no God. Some places on earth are violent and proverty-stricken, others are developed and comfortable. You're born where you're born.

If there is a God, and he really wants you to do something, you could probably start by helping the poor. That's a no-brainer.

I see what you mean.  Perhaps God isn't as involved as I thought, and it's free will that has gotten us into this mess.  I agree though, helping those who are in need is a good way to make your life count.


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent

Edison Trent wrote:

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Instictual urges. Mothers don't love their offspring because they are taught to by text, or orally. Language doesn't even enter the picture. It isn't needed. If anything, language becomes weak and impotent when it is drawn into the shadow of our intuition. Mothers don't read the Bible, or the Qur'an, or the Hadith, or the Vedas, or the Tanakh, or the Kojiki, or the Yasna, or the Principia Discordia. But they know, instinctively, that they are to love their kids and that their children are to be kept safe and healthy.

Do animals follow your God's commands for them? How? Do they have their own holy scripts, which they read and interpret daily so that they know how to behave to please your God? Or do they already know? Is it written down inside of them already? Are we no better than the animals that we must read to know our purpose and place?

It could be argued that it is one's instinct to believe in a God, though it would seem reason has taken care of that at this forum. Once most people believe in Christianity they have a hard time leaving. Even the guys at the DC blog admit that it's hard to not believe in Christianity. There is also great temptation to believe by faith. Perhaps the "God-shaped vacuum" is another instinctual evidence for God. I'm kind of grabbing blindly in the air here, but I'll try to come up with more concrete examples.

You've still given no reason to trust your Bible over my instinct. I'd be willing to wager that nearly ALL religions are difficult not to believe in, once you've been thoroughly "instinctualized" (indoctrinated).  The point is, if there is a God instinct in you, then there is no reason to turn to outward sources to find answers. All of the answers you seek are in there. I've yet to experience anything that suggests otherwise.


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
LosingStreak06

LosingStreak06 wrote:

You've still given no reason to trust your Bible over my instinct. I'd be willing to wager that nearly ALL religions are difficult not to believe in, once you've been thoroughly "instinctualized" (indoctrinated).  The point is, if there is a God instinct in you, then there is no reason to turn to outward sources to find answers. All of the answers you seek are in there. I've yet to experience anything that suggests otherwise.

If the Bible is true, then it follows that mankind is in a corrupted, sinful state, not the original state in which he was intended to be.  I know you're just going to say "well this is crap becaues I don't believe the Bible", but it supports my view of things.


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent

Edison Trent wrote:

LosingStreak06 wrote:

You've still given no reason to trust your Bible over my instinct. I'd be willing to wager that nearly ALL religions are difficult not to believe in, once you've been thoroughly "instinctualized" (indoctrinated). The point is, if there is a God instinct in you, then there is no reason to turn to outward sources to find answers. All of the answers you seek are in there. I've yet to experience anything that suggests otherwise.

If the Bible is true, then it follows that mankind is in a corrupted, sinful state, not the original state in which he was intended to be. I know you're just going to say "well this is crap becaues I don't believe the Bible", but it supports my view of things.

If the Qur'an is true, the same thing applies. If Buddhism is true, then it follows that there should be suffering in the world...

I think you see where I'm going with this. 


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
LosingStreak06 wrote: If

LosingStreak06 wrote:

If the Qur'an is true, the same thing applies. If Buddhism is true, then it follows that there should be suffering in the world...

I think you see where I'm going with this.

Ok, I see where you're going.  Let me back up and change my point.  I don't think God wants believing in the Bible to be instinctual, because he wants you to truly believe him.  He doesn't want it to be automatic, he wants you to choose to believe him over something else.  This is why if the Bible is true, it's not just instinctual to believe in the Bible, God wants you to make the choice.  I hope this helps explain things, and yes I am ditching my previous point because I realize that it's not right.


LosingStreak06
Theist
LosingStreak06's picture
Posts: 768
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Edison Trent

Edison Trent wrote:

LosingStreak06 wrote:

If the Qur'an is true, the same thing applies. If Buddhism is true, then it follows that there should be suffering in the world...

I think you see where I'm going with this.

Ok, I see where you're going. Let me back up and change my point. I don't think God wants believing in the Bible to be instinctual, because he wants you to truly believe him. He doesn't want it to be automatic, he wants you to choose to believe him over something else. This is why if the Bible is true, it's not just instinctual to believe in the Bible, God wants you to make the choice. I hope this helps explain things, and yes I am ditching my previous point because I realize that it's not right.

 Your God is a right git, you know that?


Edison Trent
Theist
Edison Trent's picture
Posts: 104
Joined: 2007-11-10
User is offlineOffline
LosingStreak06 wrote: Your

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Your God is a right git, you know that?

Sure, whatever.  Lol.