They believe in it Brian because it makes them feel like they are more important than they are.

What a horrible "truth" in any case if we are to assume that argument. It is repugnant to think that something so easly preventable by an all powerfull being will have to happen so a select few can hang out with him past the velvet ropes.

Have you read revelation? Or are you, like them going to cherry pick the bible, ignore the things that are ugly and cop out to metaphore by claiming "they missed the mark".

Funny how when you point out nasty stories in any holy book the believer(incert label here) always claims that the words dont say what they mean and the other guy got it wrong.

So, somehow you know the truth better than they do.

I dont believe in any god, much less your god. So, since they got it wrong and you got it right, do tell, what happens so someone who dies without believing in the Christian god? 

What makes me sick is that people are proftiting off of the ultimate in fearmongering.  The Authors you speak of are bad enough.  It doesn't get taken to the Nth degree until you start talking about people like John Hagee.  This guy has profited more than anyone off of this BS, and his books are supposedly non-fiction!  Not to even mention that he wants to help the end-time prophecies along, so we can get to the rapture sooner.  He doesn't even make an effort to hide that.  People like him need to be dealt with severely!

I would say exactly the oposite of the view that christians hold about this life.  I know what I thought when I used to be one.  I knew I would get a second chance if I screwed up.  I thought about all the horrible things that happen in this world, and convinced myself that this life isn't the important one.  It doesn't teach that in the bible, but it was way too convenient escape mechanism for me to be alone in that way of thinking.  Now I am much better at focusing on good things in life.  I also know that this life is all I have, and that life can end at anytime, so I better make good on the time I have left.  As far as the  'end times' promoting that kind of thinking, I don't see that being a very common viewpoint.  And as far as calling the end times a fact, uh....no.  Looking up the word fact in the dictionary may be helpfull to you!

This is a good point. However, I would present you with an anecdote about a video game that my friend foisted upon me, and forced me to play. It was a game in the "survival horror" genre. The concept of the game is to avoid dying (sort of like real life). However, unlike most standard video games, dying in this particular genre of games is ridiculously easy. When playing the game, one becomes invested in it, despite the fact that, if one dies in the game, not only does it have no effect on you life outside of the game, you can start the game over if you want. What makes the game exciting is the anticipation of your imminent doom. This particular game made use of poor fixed-camera angles to allow monsters and such to jump out of nowhere and scare the crap out of you. Without such an element, I imagine the game would have been much less entertaining than it was.

Funny, as that is pretty much what I was trying to say, although for those who believe in an "afterlife" the initial clause wouldn't apply. But I already (hopefully) demonstrated why that doesn't matter.

Perhaps you are playing the wrong games. 

As far as that goes, you'll need to brush up on your reading comprehension before you go around telling people what they did or did not call a fact. 

I was thinking of something more along the lines of a global catastrophe, as it follows more closely to the Armageddon-theme we have going on in this topic, but you got the gist of it. 

I'm not really anything. "Theist" is what I choose to call myself.

I don't think they make badges for that. 

Concise and accurate.

 Wow, I do have to give you kudos for a dodge I have never seen before.

Still doesnt adress my original post based on math. MOST people will not make it to heaven out the 6 billion people on this planet? Are you saying that most people misslead others? Most of the 6 billion inhabitants are evil?

If most people will will merely be misslead insted of missleading will God have most of the 6 billion people as friends? If so, what would God need with all those friends? I can count my friends on one hand.

You are diliberatly trying to avoid the nasty passages in Revelation by attempting to distract me with a "loophole" you have created in your mind so that you can willfilly ignore the nasty parts of the bible.

Now, once again, what will happen to me if I die without believing in Jesus? According to you.

Mjolnin wrote:

"You can not be tricked into or accidentally sin."

Wow, that just shoots the whole "Fall of Man" story in the foot. 

So they knew good and evil before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? 

I have had sufficiant reflection and willfully reject any sky daddy claim. So according to you, because God gave you personally insight to his mind where all others got it wrong, this "sin" or transgrestion will lead to eternal torture?

Humn, funny how secular common law doesnt allow you to beat the shit out of your spouse if they chose to leave you. But I'll get an eternal ass kicking beyond emagination for simply saying, "I dont believe in you, and wouldnt want to follow you even if you were real."

Your daddy in the sky treats his children like abused spouses.

 You do have a choice:

1. Love me and obey me

or

2. I will beat your ass forever

How is that a choice? Do explain. So if a robber came up to you and said:

"You have a choice. Give me your wallet and I'll let you live. Or, keep it and I'll blow your brains out".

You call that a choice? I call that emotional blackmale by a bully.

Love is freely given and if one does not chose to give someone else love that other person has no right to threaten them emotionally or physically if they chose to leave the relationship.

So why would I worship a fictional being who threatens me with hell if I chose not to follow him?

The matter is serious and grave. Our planet has a serious problem with people who have voices in their heads telling them they are divinely intitled by a fictional being in the sky to tell others how to live their lives. 

2. I have seriously and sufficiently relfected on your work of fiction and that is why I call it such, fiction.

3. I am forced by reason and logic to reject such absurdities such as ghosts knocking up girls and zombie gods surviving rigor mortis after three days, just like I am forced by reason to reject Peter Pan and Thor making lighting, just like you reject claims of 72 virgins and multiple armed deities. 

But not until after the fact - Your bible says as much.

They didn't have any concept of obedience v. disobedience, good v. evil or death.

The command and the threat meant nothing. It would be like me walking up to you and saying "snarfblatt zigglefritz nugwomp".

My son's pet lab knows it is in trouble if it jumps on the couch. The dog has no concept of good vs. evil and if she wakes up when I yell "snarfblatt zigglefritz nugwomp" if it is in a harsh tone her tail will go between her legs, do it with a smile and her tail will rag. Even our early ape ancestors were smarter than that.

God created Adam and Eve, not really dumb and even really dumber.

Before your dog or a human will submit to an authority figure it first must learn punishment.  If you buy a puppy and he starts jumping up on your couch and takes a crap on it, it won't give a bit of attention to you yelling, "No, no!" at it. 

You have to condition it.

Since Adam and Eve had never been corrected or punished for disobeying god they had no concept of what the consequences of their actions were.

They went from being immortal to mortal over their very first mistake.  That's a death sentence.

Ok, the next time I buy a puppy I'll wait until the first time it takes a piddle on the floor.  Then I'll blow it's brains out.

Imposing a death sentence for the first offense in any creature's life is rather idiotic wouldn't you agree?

Watcher wrote:

Before your dog or a human will submit to an authority figure it first must learn punishment.

I cringe to think that the only way you think it is possible to learn is through punishment. I didn’t have to beat a puppy into submission before it would start to learn. The dog responds to love and caring not just to torture. For your sake I hope no one from the SPCA has seen your post.

Sooo.. from your beliefs the same two people who discussed the fact that they were not supposed to eat the fruit did not have the intelligence of a dog??? These same people knew the God of the story well enough to recognize his foot steps and hid out of shame not fear. These were the same people God gave dominion over all other animals. And my logic is flawed? Sounds more to me like an appeal of “ it wasn’t my fault! Blame it on God. 

God is a claim, not a fact, so Adam and Eve are claims as well and not fact. You like believing these stories but have absolutely no evidence for them except a self-serving circular work of fiction with outright absurdities backed up with the inaugurate response "God did it". 

I take this response as meaning you had no intentions of ever listening to any response from anyone labeled a Theist. So I really am confused as to your original intentions. Your initial post asked for a response and you got it, but your intent was not to listen. I guess freethinking is not synonymous open mind.

You have also claimed intellectual cowardice of theists who demand government favoritism because they can’t handle debate or competition and Christians should keep their fiction out of our laws to keep you from get wound up.

Okay, let’s see what James Madison, The Father of Our Constitution' had to say about laws of our government: “We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments”. Yup, sounds pretty atheist to me.

If you want a government not run with any religions background, go live in ________  you will have to fill in the place, I can’t really think of one.  

 Brian57 response to casting Adam and Eve out of Eden: how inhumane is it to punish the ignorant by swatting a fly with a sledgehammer. This is the same as sticking someone in the electric chair for jaywalking. Not to mention supposedly according to that fairy tale humanity is paying for something Adam and Eve fucked up. 

Have you really analyzed their punishment? The electric chair after the sledgehammer is what you call reality. Is your life full of so much suffering that this is the metaphor used to illustrate it?

I would like to believe that both you and the watcher have never stuck a fork into a light socket. This is something that should have been learned without torture or punishment. God grounded them to mortality not an eternity of torture. Have you ever wondered what happened when they died??? Or have you even read further and found out they were humble to God and accepted the fate of their actions?

And yes Brian57 we also pay the price for our families fuckups.  What you ate and how you lived was based on your parent life styles, not what you wanted.

Brian my friend, I think the only thing correct in you closing statement is that you don’t know me. Throughout this post you have consistently attempted to put me into a theist box comprised of your own prejudices. I do agree that you will not try to follow the logic of any book with a theist tag. As far as scientifically part… I find it amusing that the post that started with your questioning the immorality of an small sect of Christians has led us to the initial fall of man from grace, The belief that man can equal God through Knowledge. If this thought is followed through to completion it does not destroy God but just separate you from him if used in arrogance.

Beat?  Torture?  Where the hell did those words come from?  I never used those words.  Let's stop and unravel your flawed thinking for a moment.  In order for you to teach any animal that something should not be done(such as pissing or crapping the living room floor) you have to show that creature negative feedback.  How do you teach a dog this is wrong?

?

You withhold kisses and petting?  Let me know how that works out for you.  It wouldn't work on me and I think I am more intelligent than a dog.  If nothing bad happens to me for something I do, then I will do whatever the hell I feel like doing.

And as far as your statement that you hope no one from the SPCA sees my post, fucking email it to them.  Give them a link to it.  Tell them my name is Ryan Simmons, I am seriously scared.

If you think torture and beating is so horrible and beneath you then how do you reconcile the idea that your almighty and omnibenevolent god will torture everyone who doesn't accept him for an eternity?  You're better than the god you believe in?  I agree with you.  You are better than that god.  That petty, egotistical despot of a god that will deliver eternal torture to any human that dares to oppose him.

Name one bit of beneficial "scientific knowledge" that humanity has acquired that has come from the church.

...

Well? 

Don't work on the sabbath?  Don't eat pork?  Cancer will be cured in no time with these religious nuggets of wisdom.

Modern medicine is not based on religion.

MODERN MEDICINE IS NOT BASED ON RELIGION.

If you disagree tell me EXACTLY what in modern medicine does come from religion.

Prayer?

You can throw St. Mary's in front of the name of a modern scientifically based hospital with today's medical treatment, that does not mean that hospital is based on religion.

Is the computer you are typing on based on religion?  What verse led to the breakthrough of the transistor?

Today all the good things that have made our lives better is based on science.  Science that had to fight religion to exist.  Name one single solitary thing that religion has given us that has made our lives better.

Name one thing.

Love?  People loved each other before christianity.  Do you think the native americans were killing their family members for fun before Europeans brought them religion?

Hating fags?  Thanks god!

End Timers unfortunately have created something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is that the meme of rapture affects its hosts in such a way that it makes them destructive. They no longer care about this world and some even seek to make it worse to try and bring about the rapture. In some African countries it is especially destructive since the leaders of some countries are end-timers.

If the meme spreads further we're in a lot of shit, they could actually destroy the world and of course they won't find Jesus waiting for them.

Theist?  I'm no kind of delusional theist.  I'm an ATHEIST.

And yes I believe in learning to obey authority through negative feedback.  So does our society (Being imprisoned or killed is pretty negative feedback for doing illegal things).  You wack jobs that think only positive reinforcement should be used don't take into consideration those people and animals that don't really give a crap if you don't give them a hug and tell them they did good.

Actually no.  The churches did save "almost all learning and arts" during the dark ages.  Let's look at this for a moment.  What is the general time that the "dark ages" existed? 566-1095.

So this means it preserved the "learning and arts" of pre-566 AD?

Damn.  Good thing we have all that advanced science.

And as far as universities during the medieval ages which existed from roughly the 5th century to the 15th century they taught primarily theology.  The other two main areas of study were law and medicine.  What was medieval medicine?  Apparently antiquated forms of medicine and spiritual influences.  There was no scientific medicine.  It rather focused on observations that were deduced by some contrived spiritual influence that they thought caused it.

Since what we currently call science today was not developed until the 17th and 18th century, I say BIG WHOOPDY DOO.

Even if it did preserve some primitive learning I have yet to hear about anything useful that religion has generated.

"Anything is such..."where in the hell did you pull that from?  Right out of your butt I'm guessing.  What bad has come from science?  Weapons of war?

If you're getting those weapons used on you, then yes you would say it is bad.  If you are using those same weapons to protect your loved ones you will say they are pretty damn great.

So you believe in evolution, correct?  You know that science has proven we share a common ancestor with Chimpanzees?  You know that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, right?

No, they are often very educated people who are competely and suicidaly illogical about their beliefs.

I believe that "true" logic does follow one path.  If two people come up with two opposing views on anything, one of them has not used true logic.

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpitH2xUUyA

Do you think these people are using true logic?

Good for you, you have taken a step in the right direction. Now, if you accept this as a fairy tale, and rightfully so, that there will be no magical battle between the white robe forces vs the red leotard pitchfork forces, then how is it that is metaphore, but a zombie god surviving rigor mortis after 3 days is not metaphore?

There is a name for that, it's called "cherry picking". We are calling you on an absurdity, and you agree that "end times is an absurdity". Now when you understand WHY you call that story an absurdity, you will understand why we call all magical claims of the bible absurdities, and not just that one. 

This is the BIG piece of conjecture you throw on atheists.  We don't disbelieve in god because we are hedonistic.

*sigh*

Mjolnin, sometimes in this conversation I have made angry sounding replies to you.  For that I apologize.  You do not deserve that.  Let me explain why I got angry.

My grandfather was a deacon.  My mother plays piano for church service for Calvary Baptist church and also teaches Sunday School.  I went to that church every Sunday morning, evening, and Wednesday evening.  I was raised to believe in the Bible.  I was raised to believe in Jesus as my personal saviour and I DID believe.  I very thoroughly believed.  My mother watched how much I enjoyed learning the stories of the bible.  She was sure I was going to be a preacher or missionary one day.  I led several friends to Christ.

I argued for god and used many of the same statements you are making in this thread.  I KNEW that heaven and hell existed.

I joined the navy and got placed on a Naval Cruiser.  I was 24.  I got into an argument with another protestant about salvation.  I was raised to believe once saved ALWAYS saved.  The surety of the believer.  He was raised to believe in falling from grace.

We both argued our sides and we BOTH used verses from the bible to prove our arguments.

Afterwards I had doubts.  I ALWAYS doubt myself, Mjolnin.  Always.

So I decided to look through the entire bible and find out what the truth was about salvation.

When you look at every verse of the bible, the exact way you can get to heaven becomes frustratingly difficult.

If I just cherry pick and take John 3:16 no problem.  But how could I justify ignoring all the rest about salvation?  I couldn't justify it.

So I tried something revolutionary.

I decided to put my bible away and use my god given intellect to figure it out.

I thought about it for 6 years.

Now when you are raised by your parents and community to believe in heaven and hell so deeply that you practically piss your pants for fear of going to hell, you really need a LOT of convincing to disbelieve.

It took me 6 years, Mjolnin.  A lot of people here claim to have done it in months.

...

 I don't see how.  How could I be the stupid one that took so much longer?

But after those 6 years were up, I couldn't believe in the bible anymore.  I didn't refuse to believe.  I couldn't.  It doesn't make sense. 

And you want to know what pisses me off, Mjolnin?  What pisses me off about religion and what it did to me?

A year before I realized that I couldn't believe any longer I was strongly, adamantly against homosexual marriage.  After I deconverted I couldn't understand how I could have thought that.  Two full grown adults that love each other and want it legally recognized.  That's very important to a lot of people.  However Christians think marriage is christian and their god does not condone homosexuality.  Marriage is not christian.  Christian marriage is christian.  Every people have had some type of marriage.  But even some sects of Christianity condone it now.  Methodists are getting very friendly with homosexuals.

No one is forcing a Southern Baptist preacher to marry homosexuals.  Why force my opinions on other adults when it does not concern/hurt/affect me or anyone I love or care about?  Religion made me want to instinctively restrict other peoples rights, Mjolnin.

Restrict rights to get married. 

That's pretty tame. 

Other people's religious views make them want to restrict what you can do in any aspect of your life.  Restrict teaching science.  Restrict stem cell research.  Restrict scientific studies that can save millions of lives.  Restrict if you can have a life-saving abortion.  If you can use contraception.  If you are allowed to even live if you do not live the way their religion thinks you should live.

All of this not based on logic.  But the warped views of people living thousands of years ago.

What other parts of my thoughts were warped by my old religion?  I'm sure it must be tons of things.

That's why I'm angry.

And Mjolnin.  I'm 33.  I'm faithfully married.  I have 3 young daughters.  I've two dogs, a mortgage, a good job.

I don't do drugs.  I don't rape.  I don't steal.  I do not beat or molest my children.  I don't look at kid porn(ugh).  I don't have any homosexual urges or desires.

My life and how I act after I deconverted is EXACTLY the same as before.

The only difference is I don't believe in god.

So what is it that I want to do now that god wouldn't let me?

I do the exact same things.

I hope you keep thinking on this, Mjolnin.  I really do.  Don't give anything a free pass in your mind.  Challenge everything.  If god is real and you already believe in him, a little scrutiny and logical musings is no big deal.

If he isn't real, it's a HUGE deal.

First off, make sure you are all the way at the bottem of the post before you add to a quote. The curser when you open a new topic with a quote is often in the middle of the quote. Make sure the curser is outside the quote at the bottem of the page before you start typing, otherwise your post will look like it is part of the person you quoted.(friendly advice, it happens to all of us at some point).

Secondly, no one is judging you. We dont know you face to face personally. We are saying YOUR CLAIMS are absurd, just as you would rightfully say that belief in multiple armed deities is absurd. Just as you would rightfully say Scientology is absurd.

It is not a matter of "judging". It is a matter of intelectuall honesty. We call a duck a duck and we call fiction fiction. It is not our fault that you dont want to face that. Insted of taking it personally, why not examine the claims you make insted of accusing us of something that is not going on.

Us, "That is not true"

You, "You hate me".

No, "We are simply saying you got it wrong".

It would be the same if the conversation went like this.

Person A, " Bill Gates was America's first president".

Us, "No,that is not true"

THE SAME IS GOING ON HERE WITH YOU, you just dont want to see it.

It is NOT true that there will be a finall battle between a bearded man in a white robe vs a man in a red leotard with a pitchfork. And it is NOT true that human flesh can rise from the dead after rigor mortis. That is not being mean, that is facing you with facts.

If you want to blame anyone for our skepticism, blame the inept writers of the bible, or any ancient holy book for that matter. These people wrote stories of fiction, nothing more. You take it personally because you dont know any better.

If you want to believe fictional stories about magical claims, we wont hate you are have you burned at the stake. But dont expect us to buy those stories either. Just as you wouldnt buy 72 virgins "just because" someone claimed it.

The fact is you are doing nothing differently than any other believer we have run into. When shown a contradition, logical impossibility, fallacy or cherry picking, insted of trying to understand why we point this out, you run from it because your ego wont allow you to be wrong.

You have nothing to be ashamed of when someone points out an error. That is all we are doing here and you are offended by the packaging when the substance of the message is far more important. If someone is showing you a better way of thinking, you dont act like a moron and accuse them of absurd things like "judging".

We dont judge YOU, we judge the claims you make. Now stop being a whiny crybaby and poney up with the evidence, OR do the right thing and question WHY, not what you believe, BUT WHY you believe it.

The only differance between you and me is that I believe in one less deity than you do. When you understand WHY you reject all other deity claims, you will understand why we reject yours as well.

"Question with boldness even the existance of God, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear" Thomas Jefferson.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11th 1823

I doubt very seriously such a bright man would object to such scrutiny, even to the point of "blasphemy", because what was important to him was the ability to question without fear.

You are afraid of the answers you may find. Many here have been where you are at, but we got over our fear and you can too.

NO ONE IS JUDING YOU, you simply got it wrong and we are explaining to you WHY you got it wrong.--

1) No, I don't Hate you. I am however getting bored with you singular logic.

2) You have yet to say anything other than you don't agree with me.

3) The fact that you are not doing anything different is something you can not see. Do you actually think you insight is in anyway new.

4) You have not confinced me of anything other than you limited use of old Rhetoric

But somehow they made up a perfect God? 

Since when is fact "Rhetoric"? FACT=3 day old dead flesh does not jump up and dance the jig. FACT.

Sorry I burst your bubble and told you Santa was just a story. You believe in a myth. I cant help you give up that myth unless you want help.

Get back to me when you can prove it. Dont worry, I wont hold my breath. 

Is there such a thing as an "unorganized religion"?

As far as Jefferson attending church services, etc. - He was enough of a politician to understand that it wouldn't be wise to piss people off by flaunting traditions.