Having Mormons over for Dinner

22jesus22
22jesus22's picture
Posts: 208
Joined: 2006-12-18
User is offlineOffline
Having Mormons over for Dinner

Hey Guys,


This coming Tuesday I’m having a two Mormons over for dinner. They are only a couple of years older then me, (21ish) and are on their famous Mormon Mission. I know a fair bit about Mormonism, but I was wondering if you people had any advice or good arguments for me.

 

Thanks in Advance,

Garrett.


Unsavedsinner
Unsavedsinner's picture
Posts: 138
Joined: 2007-05-09
User is offlineOffline
One of our freinds dated a

One of our freinds dated a mormon, she actualy broke up with him (the mormon) because he always turns into "Bible mode". Just do your regular arguments as you would with any Christian.

Support our voice in politics by voting for the question "Is America unofficially a Theocracy?" at http://www.communitycounts.us/debates so it can be asked live at the CNN/YouTube debates!!


lester ballard
Posts: 63
Joined: 2007-02-20
User is offlineOffline
Don't spend the whole

Don't spend the whole evening debating religion.  Find some commonality in other areas.  (Your personal example has a greater delivery than argument.)

Enjoy.


RickRebel
RickRebel's picture
Posts: 327
Joined: 2007-01-16
User is offlineOffline
lester ballard wrote: Don't

lester ballard wrote:
Don't spend the whole evening debating religion. Find some commonality in other areas. (Your personal example has a greater delivery than argument.)

Good advice. And if they mention the magical glasses try not to spray your drink from your nose.

Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
22jesus22 wrote: Hey

22jesus22 wrote:

Hey Guys,


This coming Tuesday I’m having a two Mormons over for dinner. They are only a couple of years older then me, (21ish) and are on their famous Mormon Mission. I know a fair bit about Mormonism, but I was wondering if you people had any advice or good arguments for me.

 

Thanks in Advance,

Garrett.

 

After you serve them, pass around a plate and tell them it's time to collect the tithe.

 


JeremiahSmith
Posts: 361
Joined: 2006-11-25
User is offlineOffline
Fava beans and a nice

Fava beans and a nice Chianti.


D-cubed
Rational VIP!
D-cubed's picture
Posts: 715
Joined: 2007-01-04
User is offlineOffline
It would be funny if you

It would be funny if you could avoid the subject of religion the entire night.  Every time they try to bring it up you change the subject or get up to get something to drink.  I'll be curious as to how often they try to bring the subject up.


22jesus22
22jesus22's picture
Posts: 208
Joined: 2006-12-18
User is offlineOffline
that would be interesting to

that would be interesting to see, however I think I'm more interested in religion then they are.  I predict by the end of the night, that it will be me constantly bringing up the topic of religion, and they'll be the ones doing the avoiding.


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Ask them what's up with the

Ask them what's up with the magic underwear?


Nero
Rational VIP!
Nero's picture
Posts: 1142
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Offer three drink

Offer three drink selections:  wine, iced tea, and coffee.  When they ask for water, tell them someone turned all the water into wine.

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


D-cubed
Rational VIP!
D-cubed's picture
Posts: 715
Joined: 2007-01-04
User is offlineOffline
Well, if ya gotta talk

Well, if ya gotta talk about religion then it's fun to set them up in a trap.

Ask them if god is always right.  It goes without saying that an omniscient god and an authority on morals should be.  So if they deliver a 'yes' then present them with this problem:

God says "an eye for an eye" as a proper response to a violent act.  Believing that moral guidance what would the proper response be by a god who was tortured and executed by the people?  Would god take his own advice or was he morally wrong when he suggested that a people who torture should be tortured in return? 


iranu
Posts: 59
Joined: 2007-07-27
User is offlineOffline
Can we have a sweapstake? 

Can we have a sweapstake?  I'll take the 20-25 range fro the number of times they bring up religion over the course of the evening.   Can you count the number of times they do?

 I wouldn't bring the subject up because it may become an unpleasant atmosphere.  However I usually find the fervently religious can talk of nothing else.


Nero
Rational VIP!
Nero's picture
Posts: 1142
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Praise God, and pass the

Praise God, and pass the peas!!


22jesus22
22jesus22's picture
Posts: 208
Joined: 2006-12-18
User is offlineOffline
I'm assuming most of you

I'm assuming most of you live in the States, so you see/hear your full share of the fundamental religious type.  However I live in a small city in Canada, and have honestly never come across a "religious nut."  These kids are only 21ish and probably don't know all that much about their faith.  I doubt they're going to want to bring up the topic of religion a lot.  I hope they do, but I doubt it.

 

And to the moral problem brought up:  Wouldn’t the Christian simply respond with "God was trying to save us.  Why would he punish us after a successful sacrifice that washed away the sins of the world?"   


triften
atheist
triften's picture
Posts: 591
Joined: 2007-01-01
User is offlineOffline
I've chatted with a few

I've chatted with a few Mormons myself (and, boy, did they love bringing up religion.) Just make sure to inquire as to their stances and try not to pre-suppose their views on things. The Book of Mormon introduces some "interesting" ideas and makes them swerve a bit from "any other Christian." This doesn't make it any less frustrating to try and explain the issue of omniscience vs. free will, though.

-Triften 

 


Nero
Rational VIP!
Nero's picture
Posts: 1142
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
I love when they talk about

I love when they talk about the Angel Moroni. The very name makes me giddy. 

If you Canadians have a dearth of religious nutcases, please allow me to send you a complete complimentary set of our American nutcases.  Each month a new and more bizarre nutcase will arrive with his own interpretation of the Bible. 

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
Ask them about Joseph

Ask them about Joseph Smith's background as a con man and how they can possibly think we wasn't pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.

 Portion of article found here:

Smith was largely regarded at the time as a con man and fraud. His golden plates disappeared, transported to heaven, or so he said. The civilizations recorded within the Book of Mormon have never been substantiated by any historical evidence through either archaeology or corroborated by any credible scholar or historian. Instead, as originally perceived by Smith's contemporaries, they appear to be little more than a collection of fictional stories put together by Smith, based largely upon other writings and his own creative imagination. 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


rexlunae
rexlunae's picture
Posts: 378
Joined: 2007-01-07
User is offlineOffline
I've read the Book of

I've read the Book of Mormon, and it's worth reading if you're going to debate Mormons. A lot of Mormons don't know what's in it, even amongst the missionaries.

If you don't have time to read the BoM, the Skeptic's Annotated Book of Mormon is a good resource. I would probably start in on the racism in the BoM (i.e. the claims that the people who rebelled against god, the Lamanites, were cursed with a "dark skin").

Also, try to get a good, clear description of how the golden plates were transcribed.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


D-cubed
Rational VIP!
D-cubed's picture
Posts: 715
Joined: 2007-01-04
User is offlineOffline
If you want to tear Mormons

If you want to tear Mormons apart about their beliefs read Under the Banner of Heaven.  In Joseph Smith's Doctrine and Covenents he advocates plural marriage.  While Smith wasn't a racist the second prophet Brigham Young was a racist who wouldn't allow Blacks into the church.  That racist tradition continued until the government threatened to revoke their tax exemption if they didn't comply with the Civil Rights act.


rexlunae
rexlunae's picture
Posts: 378
Joined: 2007-01-07
User is offlineOffline
D-cubed wrote: While Smith

D-cubed wrote:
While Smith wasn't a racist the second prophet Brigham Young was a racist who wouldn't allow Blacks into the church.

I have to dispute this. The BoM was written by Joseph Smith, and it contains some very clearly racist claims. These beliefs might have been normal in his time, but Smith was definitely a racist by any reasonable standard.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


D-cubed
Rational VIP!
D-cubed's picture
Posts: 715
Joined: 2007-01-04
User is offlineOffline
rexlunae wrote: I have to

rexlunae wrote:
I have to dispute this. The BoM was written by Joseph Smith, and it contains some very clearly racist claims. These beliefs might have been normal in his time, but Smith was definitely a racist by any reasonable standard.

The book, Under the Banner of Heaven makes an argument that he wasn't as he associated with blacks and gave them positions of authority. 


triften
atheist
triften's picture
Posts: 591
Joined: 2007-01-01
User is offlineOffline
Isn't the idea that native

Isn't the idea that native Americans are tainted/lost a tad racist? Especially since, according to the Mormon myths I understand, it's supposedly signified by their skin color?

 -Triften


rexlunae
rexlunae's picture
Posts: 378
Joined: 2007-01-07
User is offlineOffline
D-cubed wrote: rexlunae

D-cubed wrote:

rexlunae wrote:
I have to dispute this. The BoM was written by Joseph Smith, and it contains some very clearly racist claims. These beliefs might have been normal in his time, but Smith was definitely a racist by any reasonable standard.

The book, Under the Banner of Heaven makes an argument that he wasn't as he associated with blacks and gave them positions of authority. 

I'd be interested to see his argument and sources, because the BoM pretty much speaks for itself (and Smith) on the matter, and as far as I know, there's no serious dispute that Smith is responsible for all its important contents (although the church has been revising it since it was published). As triften said, the claims about how a dark skin is a sign of divine curse are pretty racist.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


darth_josh
High Level DonorHigh Level ModeratorGold Member
darth_josh's picture
Posts: 2650
Joined: 2006-02-27
User is offlineOffline
What is a good wine to

What is a good wine to serve with flamed mormon?

You could always dress up like Cardinal Ximinez, from the Spanish Inquisition? Oh wait. That was against jews. Hmmm. Oh well. Nobody expects the spanish inquisition anyway.

"Clarisse, I'm having an old friend for dinner." 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.


Rave
Posts: 114
Joined: 2007-03-02
User is offlineOffline
Nero wrote: When they ask

Nero wrote:
When they ask for water, tell them someone turned all the water into wine.

Or just to see the reaction, give them the type of water you can buy that looks clear but is flavoured :D  

"This is the real world, stupid." - Charlie Brooker

"It is necessary to be bold. Some people can be reasoned into sense, and others must be shocked into it. Say a bold thing that will stagger them, and they will begin to think." - Thomas Paine


JB_Montag
JB_Montag's picture
Posts: 68
Joined: 2006-07-27
User is offlineOffline
I always invite in anyone

I always invite in anyone from a church knocking on my door. I always keep the subject off religion till the end, then spring it on them. It's amazing to watch their faces after you've had a nice meal and pleasant conversation. Totally screws up their "evil" atheist construct, the beauty of cognitive dissonance.

 Turn on your tv while they're at your house, Mormons on their mission aren't supposed to watch it. It has the same effect as talking to a crackhead if you were holding a rock the size of your fist. Yes, I am kind of a dick.

The paper read yesterday, the earth exploded, nobody noticed the passing of this hapless planet.


Nero
Rational VIP!
Nero's picture
Posts: 1142
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Tuesday has passed.  What

Tuesday has passed.  What happened?


22jesus22
22jesus22's picture
Posts: 208
Joined: 2006-12-18
User is offlineOffline
The Dinner went over

The Dinner went over great.  They were just two young kids, doing what they thought they were supposed to do.  One I really liked and could tell he thought about what I had to say.  The other, well have you guys seen SIGA`s video where he talks about the Christians just plugging their ears and praising Jesus, well the other guy was a lot like that.  We honestly didn’t talk too much about religion.  Had one argument about Free Will, I asked some questions, they gave me some answers.  Overall though they seemed like your average young adults, and I had a wonderful time meeting them.


Tomcat
Posts: 346
Joined: 2006-10-24
User is offlineOffline
22jesus22 wrote: The

22jesus22 wrote:

The Dinner went over great.  They were just two young kids, doing what they thought they were supposed to do.  One I really liked and could tell he thought about what I had to say.  The other, well have you guys seen SIGA`s video where he talks about the Christians just plugging their ears and praising Jesus, well the other guy was a lot like that.  We honestly didn’t talk too much about religion.  Had one argument about Free Will, I asked some questions, they gave me some answers.  Overall though they seemed like your average young adults, and I had a wonderful time meeting them.

That sounds like a good time.  I'm glad to hear you are extending the olive branch and engaging in sincere conversation. 

The Enlightenment wounded the beast, but the killing blow has yet to land...


urbanrust
urbanrust's picture
Posts: 20
Joined: 2007-07-13
User is offlineOffline
rexlunae wrote: I've read

rexlunae wrote:
I've read the Book of Mormon, and it's worth reading if you're going to debate Mormons. A lot of Mormons don't know what's in it, even amongst the missionaries. If you don't have time to read the BoM, the Skeptic's Annotated Book of Mormon is a good resource. I would probably start in on the racism in the BoM (i.e. the claims that the people who rebelled against god, the Lamanites, were cursed with a "dark skin&quotEye-wink. Also, try to get a good, clear description of how the golden plates were transcribed.

 

That's funny you should bring this up!! A few moths ago I had a couple Mormon's knock on my door ( I live in Arizona, which has the second largest Mormon population in the US I believe, so they are constantly knocking on my damn door)- One of them was a white guy, and one of them was "dark skinned" if you know what I mean. I kept looking at the dark guy in puzzlement and he finally asked me why I was looking at him that way. I took his own Book of Mormon from him and read him Alma 3: 6 which says- "And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men." It seemed as if he was unaware that this verse was in there and had absolutely no counter claim. It seems that alot of "dark skinned" Mormons are ignorant to the fact that racism is at the very heart of the book of Mormon and that they are unfamiliar with the passages of Mormon scriptures that deal with race.

I think the worst time to have a heart attack is during a game of charades...or a game of fake heart attack.


DelphicRaven
DelphicRaven's picture
Posts: 101
Joined: 2006-08-17
User is offlineOffline
I was raised mormon and

I was raised mormon and most of my family is still mormon, so the thing I've heard the most in the way of argument that really upsets them but they can't really defend is the DNA argument.

 Mormons all think that the native americans came to America from the middle east and started their own civilization over here and yada yada, yet there is NO DNA evidence supporting that... 

 I'm sure any reading you do on the subject will describe what I am talking about far better than anything I have just said. Oh, another fun topic of discussion is Joseph Smith and his 14 year old wife(s). Usually their only comment to that is something like "everyone makes mistakes" or "well god said it was okay back then but it's not now..." which opens up a whole other can of worms like "so if god knows everything why would he have a need to change his mind?" 

 If I didn't feel sick right now I'd be saying what I mean a whole lot better than I am now... sorry about my rambling... I know I'm making no sense right now. 

--Sarah-- 

Prayer: How to do nothing and feel like your doing something.


rexlunae
rexlunae's picture
Posts: 378
Joined: 2007-01-07
User is offlineOffline
urbanrust wrote: It seems

urbanrust wrote:
It seems that alot of "dark skinned" Mormons are ignorant to the fact that racism is at the very heart of the book of Mormon and that they are unfamiliar with the passages of Mormon scriptures that deal with race.

That's funny.

I have it on good authority (from a former missionary turned atheist) that many of the missionaries haven't even read the BoM. Their task is to provide the initial social pressure to bring their victims into the church, where the larger community can take over.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


22jesus22
22jesus22's picture
Posts: 208
Joined: 2006-12-18
User is offlineOffline
I asked the two Mormons I

I asked the two Mormons I met with if they had read the Book of Mormon, and they both said they had many times.  They thought it was odd for me to ask that question.


nullusdeus
SuperfanBronze Member
nullusdeus's picture
Posts: 126
Joined: 2007-02-15
User is offlineOffline
I wonder if anyone is

I wonder if anyone is looking for the gold tablets that good ol' Joe "misplaced"? And , as mentioned, DNA blows the BoM right out of Salt Lake!

Miracles don't exist. "Miracle" is a word given to a preposterous event that a theist considers dogmatically advantageous. Def. - Ecclesiastical sensationalism.


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
nullusdeus wrote: I wonder

nullusdeus wrote:
I wonder if anyone is looking for the gold tablets that good ol' Joe "misplaced"? And , as mentioned, DNA blows the BoM right out of Salt Lake!

No, because as prophet smith said, anyone besides him would die by looking at the plates - and they promptly vanished after he finished dictating them. 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Randalllord
Rational VIP!
Randalllord's picture
Posts: 690
Joined: 2006-04-12
User is offlineOffline
I thought that, according to

I thought that, according to Mormon mythology, angles took the gold plates back to heaven.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


nullusdeus
SuperfanBronze Member
nullusdeus's picture
Posts: 126
Joined: 2007-02-15
User is offlineOffline
[zarathustra wrote: No,

zarathustra wrote:
No, because as prophet smith said, anyone besides him would die by looking at the plates - and they promptly vanished after he finished dictating them.

Ahh, yes, I recall now, "He who gazeth upon the Holy Sepulcher shall die."

 

[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes]

[MOD NOTE:  Tutorial for using the Quote Function can be found here.] 

Miracles don't exist. "Miracle" is a word given to a preposterous event that a theist considers dogmatically advantageous. Def. - Ecclesiastical sensationalism.


nullusdeus
SuperfanBronze Member
nullusdeus's picture
Posts: 126
Joined: 2007-02-15
User is offlineOffline
Randalllord wrote: I

Randalllord wrote:
I thought that, according to Mormon mythology, angles took the gold plates back to heaven.

Ahhhh! if it wasn't for angels we'd have no communication!

Miracles don't exist. "Miracle" is a word given to a preposterous event that a theist considers dogmatically advantageous. Def. - Ecclesiastical sensationalism.


SilkyShrew
Rational VIP!
SilkyShrew's picture
Posts: 147
Joined: 2006-02-11
User is offlineOffline
Read the threads that this

Read the threads that this guy was involved in:

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/user/rationalmormon

 

(quick 'hello' to everyone, I'm still busy as can be - I will try to stop in and say 'hi' again another time, hugs!)