Atheism and Spirituality
Offline It has only been in the past week that I really begin to question what 'spiritual' means. As I explore agnosticism, I question if I can be spiritual. If I am an agnostic do I have a claim to be spiritual? I do not think I can make such a claim. Perhaps, I am 'nit-picking', but being spiritual involves supernaturalism; entities beyong nature and my senses.
Doesn't a spiritual experience involve an experience beyond the comprehension of the five senses? My mind and intellect may not be able to grasp the meaning of the experience, but that does not necessarily mean it is supernatural and incorpreal.
You and I can have a deep reverence for nature and beauty. A reverence that moves us in a touching way. Its a reverence and beauty that at times cannot be explain properly with words. In essence it leaves us with a feeling of 'awe'. Isn't this a "natural experience" brought about by nature and not a "spritual experience".
If I do become spiritual, it will be through nature and not dieties and supernaturalism.
I am very curious on how atheist view and/or practice "spirituality"?
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I'm not spiritual at all.
I am sure it is entirely possible to be spiritual and also hold to supernaturalism while being an atheist. I personally am not spiritual and I am pretty confident most atheists will not claim to be spiritual.
You can hold a reverence for the natural world and beauty without adding the tag of 'being spiritual', I think it is contadictory. If you truly respect nature and find solace and comfort in the natural world why claim to believe in something other worldly?
I've found that the thing that best represents spirituality for me as an atheist would be music. By this, I mean that music usually conjurs up emotions that most people don't get from it causing me to soak it in. This is especially obvious when I play music. Depending on the song being played, my entire body usually mimics the overall emotion of it.
Anyway, this is about as close to spirituality as I can get, I suppose.
Again, why are you not spiritual? I ask out of curiosity if I should be.
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Atheism only means "without god".
While most atheists have no supernatural beliefs, the term atheist only means lack of belief in god.
I just consider it mumbo-jumbo.
I totally agree. I have issues about claiming a belief in something other wordly. I find awe and repsect in nature, but there is still something beyond my human comphrenesion.
After all I am human and limited to my human senses and consciousness. While I can't claim a belief in something other than worldy, I cannot refute the possibility of it. After all I am human and am limited.
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There's no proof for spirits to my knowledge, so being spiritual seems rather pointless.
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."--Stephen F. Roberts
Which brings up another question. For those who consider themselves spiritual, what are they doing/being? In what way does one be spiritual?
I think the term itself is pretty lame.
Oh god is this going to turn into a tangent?
I have never ask for proof of spirits; ghost gods, or unicorns.
I was questionins spritituality, and atheist (while intelligent) many view the world as 'black and white' as your comment warranted.
Spirituality to me is not believing in spirits, but belonging to something greater than myself...I find that through nature.
The main reason why I can't take 'leap' into atheism is becuase many of you have an anthropocentric view of the world. I do not not and realize that I am limited by my "humaness".
I do not want to go off on a tangent. Spirits are different than spirituality.
As I stated before, I am a deist strongly leaning towards "fence sitting" (e.g. agnosticism and/or "weak" atheism), so I question my spirituality.
If or when I do subscribe to "spirituality", it will be through nature, and not dieties, spirits, or supernaturalism.
All I am asking is, "can atheist be spiritual?"
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Deviant, you have a skewed view of what Atheism is. Atheism, very simply, is the belief that there is not a God.
Perhaps you are right....languange seems to be a barrier for me these days.
By not believing in 'god' does this make someone spiritualess? I have no problem with some lacking "sprituality" since I might lack it myself.
Can an atheist be absence of "spirituality", even in a naturalistic sense?
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I wouldn't say lame, but moot.
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The spirit and God are two seperate entities, or are supposed to be atleast.
I suppose if you believe in everything having a spirit, then yeah, you can be spiritual, however, I don't even understand the concept and never have. However, from what I do understand from the concept of spirituality, I get similar results from playing music.
So no, being an atheist doesn't prevent one from being spiritual. One can be spiritual with nature, music, art, etc.
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What kind of music do you like playing?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: It depends on how you define spiritual. I liked your description in the other post about standing by the ocean and feeling humbled by it. I feel this way too. The universe is an awesome thing and as you said, nature can feel very humbling.
I do not attibute any of these feelings to "spirituality", but I fully appreciate the incredible wonder of the world around me and beyond. I feel very fortunate to be part of it and it can certainly invoke some strong emotions. Maybe a "oneness with the universe" is a better description for what you are feeling? This is not something I spend time trying to label because I simply appreciate it for what it is and the fact that it makes me strive to do more, be more and learn more.
This is what I don't fully understand about atheism. I do have an apprecaition for atheists (when they come to this conclusion with intelligence and not simply out of rejection of revealed religion); they have 'natural' inclination to learn more about their environment.
Both you I have a deep reverance for the ocean and nature. We are cognizant of 'something greater than ourselves.' This cognizant does not equate dieties (in the biblical, antropormorphic sense), but a realization that 'something greater' than our human senses is taking place.
I have diest inclinations because of nature, but why do atheist lump me into theism?
Perhaps, both you and I are on the same page in regards to nature and the ocean, but I think our main difference is in language and not belief.
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Primarily blues. More specifically East Coast and Texas Blues. However, I mainly play emotionally charged music OR music that has attitude.
By emotionally charged, I mean stuff like For the Love of God by Steve Vai (instrumental), Europa by Santana (instrumental), Floods by Pantera (you can feel the emotion in the begining of the solo and the outro... it's powerfull stuff), and other songs.
As for attitude, generally almost everything by Black Label Society, Pantera, Velvet Revolver, and select Ozzy Songs.
But that's what I truelly enjoy playing. I play whatever the band needs me to play. To me, the overall sound of the music is more important than showboating or proving my talent.
I said I wasn't going to go into much detail about this either
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Anyway, techinically deistic thinking is the belief in a God, although he/she/it/whatever is no longer a part of anything. To be honest, it doesn't matter to me if you're deistic or atheist as a deistic creation is just as plausable as an atheistic one.
What matters, atleast to me, is if you think critically about things, which is exactly what you're doing.
For the purpose of debate, yeah, deistic thinking is technically theism, but it isn't the same level.
Mmmm...sort of. I appreciate the natural universe and am completely awed by it. Again, if by "something greater than ourselves" you mean the force of the universe, then yes, we agree.
Words are funny things and you need to make sure you understand what it is you believe. I am an atheist because, while I do appreciate nature, I do not attribute anything within it to be caused by something outside of it. There are limits to our knowledge, but I am comfortable saying "I don't know"; I do not use a supernatural being as a plug-in answer.
I am sure you have done research into the terms 'deist', 'pantheist' and 'atheist' so you simply need to decide which best fits your personal beliefs. The reason you get lumped in with theists is because deists believe in a supernatural being. Pantheists lean toward a naturalistic god or rather that the universe and god are equal.
I do not believe in either. The universe is the universe. Awe-inspiring, magnificent, frighteningly powerful and amazingly gentle....and I love it. But I do not consider it a god nor do I think there was a being that got the ball rolling.
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Deism today has a different meaning than deists during Jefferson and Paine's era.
Deism uses deduction, reason, and nature to arrive at 'god' (I use that term loosely and out of brevity). What I am trying to say and that this site (or many people on it) do not distinguish deism from theism. Most modern day deist are more closely associated to agnostics than theists.
Anyways, I am going on a tangent. Why do I dabble in deism? I am aware of my limitations of a human.
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Very cool. I think our taste are similar. Could you please elaborate on some 'east coast' music besides Aerosmith and Godsmack that you are attracted....if you are attracted to these bands.
Just curious
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What about Southern Rock? Lynyrd Skynyrd, Allman Brother, Black Crowes, etc?
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Really? Are you sure?
Simply put, deism is a belief in a supernatural creator that is not involved in everyday life. That is the meaning - you can look it up. If deists have collectively decided to change the meaning then they need to let everyone else know.
Also, theism is a generic term for a believer - any and all. Kind of like saying tissue instead of Kleenex or Puffs.
Agnostic means without knowledge. It is meaningless without the term atheist or theist after it. Otherwise it just means you are a moron that doesn't know anything about anything.
Whew, talk about a tangent! I can discuss word meanings all night if you like - I love them.
If your position is that you are a deist because you are aware of your human limitations then that is fine. Are you attributing your limitations to a god? Why would you do that? We are all limited. Is it important to you to transfer things out of your control into the hands of a supernatural being?
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I really appreciate this comment. And just to let you know I never say God since to me it implies an anthropomorphical, biblical God.
When I subsribe to my deism I say 'god' (loosely and out of brevity).
Anyways, thanks again for the comment
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I'm not as big a fan of Aerosmith as I am Godsmack. What I meant by East Coast was a certain brand of Blues mainly found in the middle-eastern states like Virginia. It's heavily rock influenced blues. Think a Slash-esque style.
Yes indeedily. Southern Rock and certain kinds of Red dirt is actually a secret pleasure of mine, although I'm not a fan of country in the slightest.
Are you just a smartass with me or with everyone?
I am sure and I have my skepticism.
First off our languange needs to change as our understanding of 'god' changes. I know this is distasteful for you and this is one one of the reason why I challenge my deism. 'God' to me is like math: is is both created and discoverd across time and space, but require human sentience.
Now, lets begin to address the issues. Simply put, deism, believe in a non-material creator or force responsible for the creation of the universe. To a deist, 'god' cannot be comprehended.
Science is good at explaining the how questions up to a point, but it is worthless in explaining the why questions. This is not a knock against science. It's just one of the limitations of science.
Why is there something rather than nothing? Science cannot answer this....yet. As a deist there is a "creative force" responsible for the creation of something rather than nothing.
A deist (closely associated to agnosticism) do subscribe to a supernatural force. As a deist, it is baffling how an atheist disegards this force.
Again, this is a more of a language barrier than a belief.
First off, this is arrogance.
why do 'we' need to let everyone else know? I admit I have skepticism about my deism; my deistic 'god' is abstract and beyond on the human senses and comprehnsion.
I find it very arrogant when atheist take an anthropocentric view of the world. Why cannot something exist beyond your comprehension?
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I don't see the point in such a thing as I'm not sure what the "spiritualness" would be. However there are atheists who not only think its possible, but advocate it. Check it out here.
Atheism doesn't really say anything outside of the god issue, but will probably make other positions more likely then others.
Everyone. Actually, I was not being a smartass in that post. You asked why deists are lumped in with theists and I was trying to clear things up for you by offering you definitions in order to help you understand.
Wanting language to change and it actually changing are two different things. Just because you have changed the definition of something does not mean the rest of the world accepts it. And this is why deism is lumped with theism...as I said before. If you are going to insist on using the term "deist" you will be considered a theist.
Yep. That is what I said.
We say "I don't know".
No, it was dry humor. Plus it helps if we are using the same basic definition.
It does, I just don't label it god.
Hey, thanks for acting like a jackass to my post. I'll be sure not to waste my time trying to help anymore. You have doubts, skepticism, whatever - figure it out for yourself. You have done nothing on this site but bitch about being tagged/untagged and whine about your "beliefs". You keep mis-using the word agnostic and wonder why deists are lumped in with theists. I was trying to explain this to you but your massive powers of intellect overwhelm me. You obviously have it all figured out. (Yes, that was sacasm.)
Hahahaha...I think I growing fond of you.
Anyways, language changes over time. For example, apathy.
In ancient Greece apathy was understood in the ancient sense—being objective or having "clear judgment"—rather than simple indifference, which it is now associated with.
I asked to be banned, so I was banned.
I asked to be banned, so I was banned.
It is not importnat to me that I transfer myself to a diety. I am not attributing my limitation to a diety (in the strict sense).
My deism revolves around that there are entities out there greater than myself.
Those entities can be the ocean or the possibility of a transcendental force beyond my human conception.
It is not importnat that I transfer/relate myself to the higher workings of the cosmos. It is a moot point.
All I am saying, that the deist in me arrives at transcendental force/entity beyond our human comprehension.
I have no right to worship it or give it qualities, but can arrive at my conclusion based on reason and deduction, and not blind faith
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Deviant you might want to start a new topic on whether or not deism is theism as you'll probably muddy up your own topic with people going back and forth about
Be sure to link people to it from here so it doesn't keep going if you do make a new thread