God, the unborn, and the afterlife..

sathaten
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God, the unborn, and the afterlife..

Well, I just stumbled upon a pretty nice piece of logic. Very enlightening as well. It deals with a quote from Richard Dawkins's Unweaving the Rainbow:

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Sahara".

Well, I was writing a letter with this quote contained in it, and was thinking about it. Especially "The potential people that could have been here in my place...". So, as the person I am writing this letter to is religious, I predicted a thought that the person would have as to why that person was born: "I was born because I am a part of God's plan. I was born so He could use me to help others, and He loved me and wanted me to experience the glory of His creation". A thought along those lines at least, as that is what I thought and was told when I was a Christian (and am still told). However, if you really think about it, knowing that instead of someone else being born you were born, that thought I just mentioned is incredibly sinister, arrogant, self-centered, and conceited.

Quoting my letter:

To say that one was born because God has a plan for that one's life, is to say that God did not have a plan for the others that could have been born instead. And to say that one was born to help others and because God loved that one and wanted that one to enjoy the creation is to say that God did not think the potential other people that forever lost their chance to live could help others, to say that God did not love them, and that God did not want them to enjoy the creation.

It is saying that, because out of all the people that could have been born instead, that one was the one chosen. And to me, that thought demeans ones own birth, is arrogant and says to the other potential people "Haha, God picked ME and not YOU". How very self-centered.

In the process of finding out all that, it dawned on me that the knowledge that countless others could instead be in the place I am now speaks to me saying:

"Not only do you have this life to enjoy for yourself, to be awed in it, to find happiness in it, but you have this life to live for the people that at the moment of your birth forever lost their chance to ever exist. The person that could be living in your place never will have a chance to see the face of the earth because of you being born. You owe it not only to yourself, but to the others that were not born, to live this life out to its fullest, to learn as much as you possibly can about your surroundings and life itself, and focus on this life only, for anything less or focusing on a life you may or may not have after this one is a smack, an insult, to those who could be living in your place."

Not only that, but to even insist, hint at, think about, dream about, or even convince people of the idea of an afterlife is much more arrogant, self-centered, and conceited than a man proclaiming to be God, for why should you or I or anyone for that matter be able to have an afterlife while countless other people will not even have the opportunity to live once. And to even believe that you are going to have an afterlife is much worse than thinking it.

So think next time, before you tell someone how much God loves them or you, or what God has done for you, or to even talk about an afterlife, about those people who God did not love enough to be born in your place, or will not be able to say "God has done something for them", or even get a chance to live while you ramble on about how you are going to enjoy an afterlife.

End quote of letter.

How very eye opening that was for me. Not that I thought this life was nothing special, as I already knew that life itself is a very precious thing. But to have it in a sight such as that, is amazing. I just had to share it all, for something like that is to great to keep a secret.

First post by the way, so hello everyone!


AReasonableLu
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sathaten wrote: Not only

sathaten wrote:
Not only that, but to even insist, hint at, think about, dream about, or even convince people of the idea of an afterlife is much more arrogant, self-centered, and conceited than a man proclaiming to be God, for why should you or I or anyone for that matter be able to have an afterlife while countless other people will not even have the opportunity to live once. And to even believe that you are going to have an afterlife is much worse than thinking it.

 

Hello fellow newbie! Hopefully my attempt at quoting/posting will work out since this is also my first time.

I thought that your comments on the afterlife were really very interesting. My own issues with the notion of an afterlife stem mainly from my experience of losing my mother about a year ago. How very quickly some will jump to remind me of some vague future reunion we'll have once I also die. This idea should, I suppose, be comforting on some level. Sure she will not attend my little sister's graduation, know my children, attend her daughter's weddings, or enjoy retirement after a life of service to others.... what matters is that we'll meet again later and have a good talk about all the things that she has missed. What a crock of bull. Doesn't that let God off the hook all too easily? If there is such a wonderful place in the sky... what in the world is so wrong with abortion? I'd rather be up in heaven living the good "life" than to be born to a woman who cannot care for me. Eternal happiness vs. 18 years in the foster care system. Tough call. Don't even get me started on euthenasia. God is trying to infitely love us for all time... and you'd keep a poor person here, stuck in a hospital bed, unable to communicate, and totally dependent on others?! Truly shocking stuff.

 

But more to the point... I do love that quote from Dawkins because I think it speaks to the wonder of simply being alive. What doesn't quite click for me is this notion of potential people. I don't feel like I, a living breathing adult, beat out a multitude of other people for this chance at a life. If you want to get down to the vast numbers of different possible outcomes (hair color, birth defects, gender, etc.) sure.. but there aren't any other "people" in the same sense that I, myself, am a person, that are somehow missing out as a direct result of my existence.

(Warning: I'm about to be crude) That line of thinking would lead me to believe that a man masturbating is in some way tragic. Think of the possibilities... the potential people... the sperm that will never see an egg... Had my parents waited another month for the sex that resulted in my conception, I obviously would not be here. Perhaps my mother would have given birth to a boy with brown hair and brown eyes instead of a blond haired blue eyed girl. Maybe he would have been taller. Maybe he would have died young and they would have gone on to have another child. If this were true, the resulting lack of ME is not the loss of a "person". I guess my fear is that someone might assume that they did some act of harm or injustice through the simple act of being born. Perhaps this idea that they have been "chosen" will lead to them to feel as if they are living under a kind of debt to be repaid to who knows what/who.

I hope you don't feel as though I've taken your point too far or that I'm attempting to "flame" you. I'm just thinking and typing away while doing so.

“The four most over-rated things in life are champagne, lobster, anal sex and picnics.”
-Christopher Hitchens

"I don't believe in God, but I'm afraid of Him."
-Gabriel Garcia Marquez


sathaten
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No, I do not think you have

No, I do not think you have taken my point to far or anything of that sort. I respect your comment, it is better than some I have recieved from friends when they read this (I was called stupid, illogical, nazi-like, etc).

 As for the potential people thing, I would say that in due to genetic variation. Say a sperm with a Y chromosome fertilized your mothers egg, and they gave birth to a male chlid instead, you as you know it now would not exist. Or various other happenings due to genetic variation, however small.  Hopefully you may see my point, as it is getting a bit late for me.

Secondly, I am not trying to say that an injustice was done or that one should feel guilty for being born. Quite the opposite in fact, it should be something that helps a person realize how precious their life is. 


MattShizzle
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Actually as far as the Bible

Actually as far as the Bible is concerned this isn't valid. If you're going to wind up in hell, wouldn't it be better to never be born in the first place? Never having been born would also be better than living a horrible life.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Susan
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Welcome to the forums,

Welcome to the forums, sathaten!

What a fascinating first post.

When you get a minute, we'd love it if you'd hop over to General Conversation, Introductions and Humor and introduce yourself. 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


sathaten
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@ MattShizzle: Hello, and

@ MattShizzle: Hello, and if my statement does not fit with the bible, it's fine. Just something to think about. But as for the whole 'wouldn't it be better to never be born in the first place' deal, all Christians that I have met would say that it is better to be born. Of course, that view flip-flops, such as in the murder of children in the Old Testament.

And Susan, hello to you as well! I will click away to that forum and introduce myself!