this started as a reply to a bulliten where they said they could prove god exists with the watchmaker argument(scroll down for the original messages, the first one showing is my last reply):

no, you THINK they came from an intelligent designer. i'm showing you evidence that i can happen by natural phenonema. therefore, you failed to prove god exists.

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: IdenyBrianSapient
Date: May 21, 2007 6:27 PM

And all those steps came from an intelligent designer

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Murua Spartas
Date: 21 May 2007, 23:25

i don't want your preaching. and my point is that the creation of the watch came to be through natural processes of the human mind. it didn't all of the sudden come to be from some guy. if you look at the history of watches, you see the many evolutionary steps that formed what you see today.

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: IdenyBrianSapient
Date: May 21, 2007 6:17 PM

So you mean to tell me you need to actually go and see the painter to know that there was one?

It doesn't matter how long it took the watch maker to design the watch there was still a watchmaker.

But time is ticking on. Today is the Day of Salvation and God's mercy is open to you, but one day it will be too late. www.NeedGod.com

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Murua Spartas
Date: 21 May 2007, 23:07

this is the 1,000,000th time i've heard that watchmaker argument. it's the same for buildings, paintings, etc.

you claim "when there is a design, there must be a designer" you are making an assertion that there is a design, you don't offer proof to back that up.

when i see a painting, it's actually proof that theres a painting.

you can go find the painter, go talk to the painter, but can you go find the "designer" you assert exists?

also, i believe i heard brian sapient say this before, about the watchmaker argument. the watch didn't come directly and only from the watchmaker. the watch was derived from thousands of years of improvements and new ideas starting all the way back at the sun dial, which came to be from the natural processes of the human mind.

your argument proves evolution, thanks.

----------------- Bulletin Message -----------------
From: IdenyBrianSapient
Date: May 21, 2007 1:47 PM

Still waiting to hear back.