Atheists Bound To Fail?

Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
Atheists Bound To Fail?

Check this out:  http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2074076,00.html

 

The New Atheists loathe religion far too much to plausibly challenge it



Anti-faith proselytising is a growth industry. But its increasingly hysterical flag-bearers are heading for a spectacular failure

Madeleine Bunting
Monday May 7, 2007
The Guardian


It's an extraordinary publishing phenomenon - atheism sells. Any philosopher, professional polemicist or scientist with worries about their pension plan must now be feverishly working on a book proposal. Richard Dawkins has been in the bestseller lists on both sides of the Atlantic since The God Delusion came out last autumn following Daniel Dennett's success with Breaking the Spell. Sam Harris, a previously unknown neuroscience graduate, has now clocked up two bestsellers, The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation. Last week, Christopher Hitchens' God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything was published in the US. The science writer, Matt Ridley, recently commented that on one day at Princeton he met no fewer than three intellectual luminaries hard at work on their God books.

This rising stack of books has prompted screeds of debate, flushing out all manner of belief and unbelief in blogs, reviews, essays and internet exchanges in the US. The Catholic columnist Andrew Sullivan has just concluded his exchange with Sam Harris on the net, while the philosopher Michael Novak recently took on the whole genre of New Atheism, or neo-atheism. Surely not since Victorian times has there been such a passionate, sustained debate about religious belief.

And it's a very ill-tempered debate. The books live up to their provocative titles: their purpose is to pour scorn on religious belief - they want it eradicated (although they differ as to the chances of achieving that). The newcomer on the block, Hitchens , sums up monotheism as "a plagiarism of a plagiarism of a hearsay of a hearsay, of an illusion of an illusion, extending all the way back to a fabrication of a few non-events". He takes the verbal equivalent of an AK47 to shoot down hallowed religious figures, questioning whether Muhammad was an epileptic, declaring Mahatma Gandhi an "obscurantist" who distorted and retarded Indian independence, and Martin Luther King a "plagiarist and an orgiast" and in no real sense a Christian, while the Dalai Lama is a "medieval princeling" who is the continuation of a "parasitic monastic elite".

This kind of vituperative polemic sounds a tad odd this side of the Atlantic. Apart from an ongoing anxiety about Islam, the British are pretty phlegmatic about religion. Church attendance continues its steady decline and the Christian evangelical boom has never taken off. The whole New Atheist publishing phenomenon is like eavesdropping on a blistering row in the flat next door: one's response alternates between fascination and irritation, but is it really anything to do with us?

What's clear is that this wave of New Atheism is deeply political - and against some of its targets even a devout churchgoer might cheer them on. What they all have in common is a loathing of an increasing religiosity in US politics, which has contributed to a disastrous presidency and undermined scientific understanding. Dennett excoriates the madness of a faith that looks forward to the end of the world and the return of the messiah. What Dawkins hates is that most Americans still haven't accepted evolution and support the teaching of intelligent design; according to one poll, 50% of the US electorate believe the story of Noah. He argues that "there is nothing to choose between the Afghan Taliban and the American Christian equivalent ... The genie of religious fanaticism is rampant in present-day America."

Harris similarly draws an analogy between Muslims and the American Christian right: "Non-believers like myself stand beside you dumbstruck by the Muslim hordes who chant death to whole nations of the living. But we stand dumbstruck by you as well - by your denial of tangible reality, by the suffering you create in service of your religious myths and by your attachment to an imaginary God."

This is popular stuff - a plague on both your houses - on both sides of the Atlantic after a war on terror in which both sides have used their gods as justification for appalling brutality. But it tips over into something much more sinister in Harris's latest book. He suggests that Islamic states may be politically unreformable because so many Muslims are "utterly deranged by their religious faith". In a another passage Harris goes even further, and reaches a disturbing conclusion that "some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them". This sounds like exactly the kind of argument put forward by those who ran the Inquisition. As one New York commentator put it, we're familiar with religious intolerance, now we have to recognise irreligious intolerance.

The danger is that the aggression and hostility to religion in all its forms (moderates are castigated as giving the fundamentalists cover for their extremism) deters engagement with the really interesting questions that have emerged recently in the science/faith debate. The durability and near universality of religion is one of the most enduring conundrums of evolutionary thinking, one of Britain's most eminent evolutionary psychologists acknowledged to me recently. Scientists have argued that faith was a byproduct of our development of the imagination or a way of increasing the social bonding mechanisms. Does that make religion an important evolutionary step but now no longer needed - the equivalent of the appendix? Or a crucial part of the explanation for successful human evolution to date? Does religion still have an important role in human wellbeing? In recent years, research has thrown up some remarkable benefits - the faithful live longer, recover from surgery quicker, are happier, less prone to mental illness and so the list goes on. If religion declines, what gaps does it leave in the functioning of individuals and social groups?

This isn't the kind of debate that the New Atheists are interested in (with the possible exception of Dennett, who in an interview last year was far more open to discussion than his book would indicate); theirs is a political battle, not an attempt to advance human understanding. But even on the political front, one has to question whether all the aggression isn't counterproductive. Robert Winston voiced increasing concern among scientists when he argued in a recent lecture in Dundee that Dawkins's insulting and patronising approach did science a disservice. Meanwhile, critics in America argue that the polarisation of the debate in the US is setting the cause of non-deism back rather than advancing it.

Dawkins is an unashamed proselytiser. He says in his preface that he intends his book for religious readers and his aim is that they will be atheists by the time they finish reading it. Yet The God Delusion is not a book of persuasion, but of provocation - it may have sold in the thousands but has it won any souls? Anyone who has experienced such a conversion, please email me (with proof). I suspect the New Atheists are in danger of a spectacular failure. With little understanding and even less sympathy of why people increasingly use religious identity in political contexts, they've missed the proverbial elephant in the room. These increasingly hysterical books may boost the pension, they may be morale boosters for a particular kind of American atheism that feels victimised - the latest candidate in a flourishing American tradition - but one suspects that they are going to do very little to challenge the appeal of a phenomenon they loathe too much to understand.

[email protected]

 


kmisho
kmisho's picture
Posts: 298
Joined: 2006-08-18
User is offlineOffline
Quote: but one suspects

Quote:
but one suspects that they are going to do very little to challenge the appeal of a phenomenon they loathe too much to understand.

This is the main problem: acceptance of somethign because oen finds it personally appealing...all questions of veracity put aside. I as an atheist am not challenging the APPEAL of religion but it's VERACITY.

This simple comment by this commentator gives me the feeling that she has no idea what the issues even are, a typical pundit in other words.


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Quote: It's an

Quote:
It's an extraordinary publishing phenomenon - atheism sells.

Is that why the bible has sold so many copies? Why, when I went to pick up my copy of "The God Delusion" did I have to look in the back of the store on a tiny shelf at the lowest, farthest reaches of the science section?

Quote:
Any philosopher, professional polemicist or scientist with worries about their pension plan must now be feverishly working on a book proposal.

~chuckle~ I think most scientists don't worry too much about it. They're busy working on science.

Quote:
The science writer, Matt Ridley, recently commented that on one day at Princeton he met no fewer than three intellectual luminaries hard at work on their God books.

Three, huh? Open the floodgates!

Quote:
He takes the verbal equivalent of an AK47 to shoot down hallowed religious figures, questioning whether Muhammad was an epileptic, declaring Mahatma Gandhi an "obscurantist" who distorted and retarded Indian independence, and Martin Luther King a "plagiarist and an orgiast" and in no real sense a Christian, while the Dalai Lama is a "medieval princeling" who is the continuation of a "parasitic monastic elite".

All worthwhile questions.

Quote:
This kind of vituperative polemic sounds a tad odd this side of the Atlantic. Apart from an ongoing anxiety about Islam, the British are pretty phlegmatic about religion.

Big Word Bonus Award: 5 points.

Quote:
But it tips over into something much more sinister in Harris's latest book. He suggests that Islamic states may be politically unreformable because so many Muslims are "utterly deranged by their religious faith". In a another passage Harris goes even further, and reaches a disturbing conclusion that "some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them". This sounds like exactly the kind of argument put forward by those who ran the Inquisition. As one New York commentator put it, we're familiar with religious intolerance, now we have to recognise irreligious intolerance.

Truthfully, I have not read Harris's new book. Out of all the atheist authors I've read, Harris could well be called the most inflammatory, and I've actually written him on several occasions to chide him for using quasi-rethuglican scare tactics. Perhaps this accusation is true. Perhaps she's taking him out of context. I will reserve judgment.

Quote:
The danger is that the aggression and hostility to religion in all its forms (moderates are castigated as giving the fundamentalists cover for their extremism) deters engagement with the really interesting questions that have emerged recently in the science/faith debate.

I'd love to know what those questions are. I've been completely disinterested in every question I've seen.

Quote:
The durability and near universality of religion is one of the most enduring conundrums of evolutionary thinking, one of Britain's most eminent evolutionary psychologists acknowledged to me recently.

Do I even need to point out how long we've known that appeal to consensus is a fallacy? What could this possibly have to do with the accuracy of religious claims?

Quote:
In recent years, research has thrown up some remarkable benefits - the faithful live longer, recover from surgery quicker, are happier, less prone to mental illness and so the list goes on.

This contradicts everything I've read. Did the Templeton Foundation give her this info?

Quote:
This isn't the kind of debate that the New Atheists are interested in (with the possible exception of Dennett, who in an interview last year was far more open to discussion than his book would indicate); theirs is a political battle, not an attempt to advance human understanding.

Alright, children. Today we're going to put our thinking caps on. If religion, sponsored by political parties, is a hindrance to advancing human understanding, what has to happen before we can advance human understanding without that hindrance?

Quote:
But even on the political front, one has to question whether all the aggression isn't counterproductive.

I guess nobody's noticed that these questions come up all the time on this board. I'm sure we're not the only ones.

Quote:
Robert Winston voiced increasing concern among scientists when he argued in a recent lecture in Dundee that Dawkins's insulting and patronising approach did science a disservice.

Oddly enough, I've noticed that the only people who find Dawkins insulting and patronising are the ones he's just PWNED!

Quote:
Meanwhile, critics in America argue that the polarisation of the debate in the US is setting the cause of non-deism back rather than advancing it.

Odd. I've noticed that a lot more people are wearing atheist t-shirts these days.

Quote:
Dawkins is an unashamed proselytiser. He says in his preface that he intends his book for religious readers and his aim is that they will be atheists by the time they finish reading it. Yet The God Delusion is not a book of persuasion, but of provocation - it may have sold in the thousands but has it won any souls?

Provoking people to question, perhaps? I was pretty angry the first time someone suggested to me that there was no god. Of course, after I calmed down, I thought about it...

Quote:
I suspect the New Atheists are in danger of a spectacular failure.

but... but... um... you just cited the declining church attendance, and the dead-in-the water evangelical movement...

Quote:
With little understanding and even less sympathy of why people increasingly use religious identity in political contexts, they've missed the proverbial elephant in the room.

Do tell. I didn't realize we were all ignorant and unsypathetic. Please explain.

Quote:
These increasingly hysterical books may boost the pension, they may be morale boosters for a particular kind of American atheism that feels victimised - the latest candidate in a flourishing American tradition - but one suspects that they are going to do very little to challenge the appeal of a phenomenon they loathe too much to understand.

So... um... what's the elephant again?

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
This is clearly a double

This is clearly a double standard.

The theists can chide non-belivers; they can make fun of them; they can gloat about how privileged they are to be in god's grace and all that crap, but if a non-believer demonstrates the same amount of self-confidence in his non-belief, that's inappropriate. That's an untenable amount of hubris and arrogance that theists think is unacceptable or inappropriate.

Bullshit.

Notice once again... and this seems to be the standard M.O., theists "attack the messenger - ignore the message". The latest, most desperate attempt are puff pieces like this which take into account the personality and vocal tonality of the atheist, as opposed to anything he has to say and whether it's truthful.

Theists expect atheists to be respectful of their beliefs. That's a pretty presumptuous expectation in the eyes of most atheists.  Delusion is delusion.  If you want to be polite about it, that's cool, but if you're more blunt regarding telling the truth, that you think someone is wrong, it doesn't alter reality.  

In any case, apparently, atheists will have to stand up to the reactive, near-sighted attacks against their character, tone of voice and hairstyle, by theists, long before they are allowed to have produced anything substantive on the theological debate front.

 


Strafio
Strafio's picture
Posts: 1346
Joined: 2006-09-11
User is offlineOffline
I see it as double standards

I see it as double standards in a different way.
It's more of a "we enlightened people should know better than to stoop to those levels that the religious nuts take."

To a degree she's right, that passionate books from Harris and Dawkins scorn believers rather than speak to them, but she's also missed their justification in doing so. Dawkins (and Sapient) have often admitted that they're playing bad cop, that they might go a bit further that is technically correct in order to get their point across. The reason for this is that it is the politically necessary approach.

The controversy get's their message out and their 'bad copness' makes the theists more ready to listen to the 'good cops'. You notice that hardline atheists, evangelicals and Islamic terrorists are all given the same status of 'fundamentalist' even those there's a massive difference between each of them. Fundamentalist seems to mean "the most extreme people from that position". If Dawkins et co hadn't been so outspoken then a tamer breed of atheist might've been planted the label.

She also seem to miss that Harris devoted quite a lot of his first book to constructively analysing the benefits of religion, and how atheists might learn from them with a 'rational spirituality', inspired by Eastern philosophies.


Iruka Naminori
atheist
Iruka Naminori's picture
Posts: 1955
Joined: 2006-11-21
User is offlineOffline
Why now? I'm curious...why

Why now?

I'm curious...why did last year become "the year of the atheist"? 

For me, the terrorist attacks on 9-11 had a lot to do with solidifying my distaste for religion.  Bush's subsequent messages from god to go attack a country that had nothing to do with the attacks made me even more pissed. 

I guess I finally decided I've had enough.  Theists have walked all over me, both personally and as a subculture.  I'm fed up.  It's time to break the taboo.  It's time to expose religion to the scrutiny and criticism it deserves.

Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


djneibarger
Superfan
djneibarger's picture
Posts: 564
Joined: 2007-04-13
User is offlineOffline
theists are just in a rage

theists are just in a rage because they have kirk cameron and we have sam harris. that's like a slingshot to a cannon.

and sam harris is way cooler than god.

 

(i'm going to set a record for how many times i can fit "cooler than god" into a thread) 

www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens


Gizmo
High Level Donor
Gizmo's picture
Posts: 397
Joined: 2007-03-06
User is offlineOffline
Yeah.  When someone claps

Yeah.  When someone claps to people claiming that Evolution means a half Crocodile half duck, then something is a tad wrong.  And I think that the current trend is going more towards us succeeding.  So yeah, I don't think we are bound to fail.  There will be a while before we do succeed but I am sure we will.  Assuming some religious nut doesn't hit the red button going "Come to me Jesus."

 


magilum
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2007-03-07
User is offlineOffline
Failure depends on the

Failure depends on the definition of success. Dawkins got me to abandon my fence-sitting, and I imagine many other almost-atheists were influenced similarly. This isn't a zero sum equation. Religion will continue to be practiced, but we have to win the battles that matter. For that I believe all we have to do is stand up.


justmoon
High Level Donor
justmoon's picture
Posts: 27
Joined: 2007-05-04
User is offlineOffline
Much like Gizmo said: I have

Much like Gizmo said: I have absolutely no doubt that religion (at least on this colossal scale) will die out. The question is only if humanity will die out with it.


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
Strafio wrote: I see it as

Strafio wrote:
I see it as double standards in a different way.
It's more of a "we enlightened people should know better than to stoop to those levels that the religious nuts take."

 In a fair world, I'd agree with you.

But we don't live in a fair world.

We live in a world where whoever has the most resources and power, has the most effective ability to set social and political agendas.  It has nothing to do with whether their opinions are the most accurate or beneficial.

In our society today, people that make a fuss -- the extremists, tend to get more attention even if they represent a fraction of a minority, because our media system panders to the edges. They've figured out that this type of sensationalizing keeps people watching. It's not about truth. It's about money.

This is why RRS is getting so much attention.  The Blasphemy Challenge is a leftist, extremist tactic.  I don't know if they consciously recognized this when they launched the campaign, but it's very effective in getting people to pay attention, even if it is an over-the-top, disrespectful way of proving a point.  This is the way our society works now.  In a perfect world, we could all sit down and everyone would carefully weigh each other's arguments.  Now it's not so much what people say, but how they say it.

 


adamnite
Theist
Posts: 4
Joined: 2007-05-09
User is offlineOffline
Do You Choose to lose?

This comment has been moved here.


D-cubed
Rational VIP!
D-cubed's picture
Posts: 715
Joined: 2007-01-04
User is offlineOffline
The author of the article

The author of the article seems really angry.  Perhaps a bad experience with reality caused her to regress into religion and, as a result, she became quite protective of that delusion.  I didn't bother with the entire article because she tries to equate non-believers with evangelical shills.  Is it prothelizing to say that someone disagrees or by pointing out faults in someone's argument?  That's all it is.

This is a typical response from the religious community when their goal is to get us to shut up.  They loved the decades of silence from our community where their views can go unchallenged and they could push their beliefs onto everyone without opposition.  I'm sure Col. Ingersoll received some of this hatred, certainly Thomas Paine did, but now that Dawkins and Harris are out there this "atheism gospel" is a new thing.

To the complainers of the "New Athiesm" let me ask you this.  Would you prefer a secular nation or would you prefer one of religious extremism headed  by a different faith?  When Iraq was secular in a majority Muslim country the Christian minority lived in peace.  Now the nation is officially Muslim and Muslims are fighting over some nonsense from the 9th century and Christians are a shared enemy along with the Jews.  This nation is filled with people expressing their faith so it is better than a secular nation where people weren't killed for their religious views?

Atheists have something better to offer, an end to religious warfare. 


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
D-cubed wrote: Atheists

D-cubed wrote:

Atheists have something better to offer, an end to religious warfare.

 Amen!

 


The Patrician
The Patrician's picture
Posts: 474
Joined: 2007-05-09
User is offlineOffline
Fail at what?   It's not

Fail at what?

 

It's not as if you can have competitions in not believing or anything.

 

Jeez, some people. 

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


Strafio
Strafio's picture
Posts: 1346
Joined: 2006-09-11
User is offlineOffline
Guys, I think you're

Guys, I think you're totally mis-reading this article.
I'm not sure where you're finding this anger in it...
Perhaps you're not used to British Journalism with its sarcasm and dry wit and read it as angry?

Perhaps I could put some things in perspective:
1) Getting the average English person to relate to this 'new atheism' is like getting a native african to relate to a person with a cold. There's a couple like myself and Dawkins who have taken an interest in religious politics in America, but it's an interest in a foreign matter. The rest of us don't have to worry about it. We'll sometimes laugh at odd American fundie that does something stupid enough to make the news, but otherwise it's not really an issue. Christianity is a non-problem over here so when an atheist attacks mainstream Christianity, people are left thinking "what's your problem?"
If you listed all the reasons why moderate religion ought to be attacked I doubt that many, if any, of them would apply to Christianity in England. There's a couple of pockets of Evangelicals, Witnesses, Mormons who'll do the odd bit of preaching, but they're extreme minorities.

2) If you read it again, you'll notice that she's mostly in favour of this 'new atheism', especially where it attacks fundies. However, she also writes as an outside who's not necessarily going to agree with everything that the movement puts forward. It's also part of our culture to put most things in a mocking light, even things that we might value or believe in - it's a British humour thing.
She wasn't dashing this 'new atheism' at all. She pointed out some flaws she saw in the approach but that's the sort of objectivity you expect from a journalist - she's not supposed to be a cheer-leader!
I think her criticisms are especially justified considering where she's writing from. 'New Atheism' is designed for America's political climate and is a little out of place over here.

Britain's not America with its two poles of religiousity.
There's no big war going on here.
Everyone has their own, independent, free-thinking opinion and she just gave hers.


SacKings384
Posts: 9
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Gizmo wrote: Yeah. When

Gizmo wrote:

Yeah. When someone claps to people claiming that Evolution means a half Crocodile half duck, then something is a tad wrong. And I think that the current trend is going more towards us succeeding.

 

I know this is OT, but the look on Sapients face when he pulled out those posters was classic.


The Patrician
The Patrician's picture
Posts: 474
Joined: 2007-05-09
User is offlineOffline
Yarr!

Strafio, the UK is comprised of four countries, not just England.

 

Just so you remember.

 

In saying that, we do tend to laugh and shake our heads at fundamentalists of any faith whether that be Christianity, Islam or Militant Atheism. 

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


jutin2001
Posts: 1
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Quote: In recent years,

Quote:
In recent years, research has thrown up some remarkable benefits - the faithful live longer, recover from surgery quicker, are happier, less prone to mental illness and so the list goes on.
isn't believing in something that you can't prove is really there usually determined to be a form of mental illness. so this statement in itself is pretty assinine. someones faith isn't proof. having faith is in my opinion somewhat of a form of mental illness. if i hear voices in my head i am crazy.  yet there are countless preachers out there who claim to talk to god all the time.  that seems pretty nuts to me.  insanity is a product of society.  just like religion is a product of society.  if i were sent to church every sunday of my life and taught as a child that god was and is the creator of the universe and everything in it i would probably believe it.  but since i wasn't i don't. therefore i am a product of my upbringing/society.  if you were told every day of your life the sky was green you would believe it because that is what you were taught.  and many people would call you crazy, because your beliefs don't match theirs.  but the sky isn't green is it? 


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13234
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
The Patrician

The Patrician wrote:

Strafio, the UK is comprised of four countries, not just England.

 

Just so you remember.

 

In saying that, we do tend to laugh and shake our heads at fundamentalists of any faith whether that be Christianity, Islam or Militant Atheism. 

Underestimating an opponent is dangerous.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


The Patrician
The Patrician's picture
Posts: 474
Joined: 2007-05-09
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Underestimating an opponent is dangerous.

 

I don't, neither do I see fundies under the bed. A sense of perspective is useful in dealing with these things.

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


Strafio
Strafio's picture
Posts: 1346
Joined: 2006-09-11
User is offlineOffline
Dude, I live down here too.I

Dude, I live down here too.
I was kind of using the words loosely as geographical correctness wasn't quite the point on my mind. Smile

Guys, if you were to move to England, after a few months there's a good chance that you'd forget fundamentalism ever existed! Well, maybe not quite that, but you'd atleast understand why most of us doing see it as a serious problem. We have much more serious home-grown problems to deal with.

Having said that, we are starting to become a little distrustful of Islam over here. I think our multi-cultural bubble might be close to bursting...


Pile
atheist
Pile's picture
Posts: 214
Joined: 2006-04-26
User is offlineOffline
Strafio wrote: Dude, I live

Strafio wrote:
Dude, I live down here too.
I was kind of using the words loosely as geographical correctness wasn't quite the point on my mind. Smile

Guys, if you were to move to England, after a few months there's a good chance that you'd forget fundamentalism ever existed! Well, maybe not quite that, but you'd atleast understand why most of us doing see it as a serious problem. We have much more serious home-grown problems to deal with.

Having said that, we are starting to become a little distrustful of Islam over here. I think our multi-cultural bubble might be close to bursting...

 

This is what gives me hope.  You travel through Europe, and possibly with the exception of what, Italy?  In every city there's a huge, monsterous church in the center, and the populace, when asked about religion, go, "Meh.."

From a cultural standpoint it's cool.  The Europeans have progressed beyond attributing *that* much significance to religion.

Maybe this will happen in the U.S.?