Homosexuality: Why we should get to the SOURCE of the hate - RELIGION

Lynette1977
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Homosexuality: Why we should get to the SOURCE of the hate - RELIGION

So if there's one thing that I've noticed in the gay community is that a majority of them are of faith. Why they remain a part of any religion that advocates their death is beyond me. Many in the community head straight for clergy to back them up when they want to try to win a fight. (Here in Indiana the House committee voted NOT to hold a vote on a gay marriage ban that not only banned it but also "any legal incidences of..." which would also effect straight couples. The faithers are having a fit. Eli Lilly and several other huge corps said they didn't want this amendment.)

Well...on a list I'm on here people are talking about Mitt Romney switching from a pro-choice, pro-gay, anti-gun liberal to a anti-choice, anti-gay, pro-gun nut. I've about had it with their ignoring the real issue at hand here so I decided to send this letter. I'm awaiting the hate mail!

-----

Mitt Romney. Whenever I say this name my face turns red and I want to spit fire. During the issue of "gay" marriage in Massachusetts he was on television during a hearing and someone asked him if he knew that the Supreme Court found enough evidence to show that gays should have the same right to marry and it was fundamentally unconstitutional to keep them out of the mix...why would he dare want to enact a law that is wholly unconstitutional? He sat there mumbling like an idiot and it was at that moment I realized just how dangerous people like him really are. Unconstitutional or not...if that's what they want then give it to them or else be prepared to constantly defend yourself against their venom.

All of those things that people think he stands for now, anti-abortion, anti-gay, pro-gun blah blah blah...it was only because of his recent brainwashing...er...religion... that he "claims" he no longer supports any of these. Someone who was once considered one of the most gay friendly people does an about face and does everything to bash the very things he used to stand for has ONE cause and one cause only and I think Romney is a PRIME example of this-religion.

On Abortion Romney is quoted as saying: 'I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country. I have since the time that my mom took that position when she ran in 1970 as a US Senate candidate. I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years we should sustain and support it.'

On the Abortion Pill: 'Do you support efforts to increase access to emergency con-traception?' "Yes," he replied.

On Gay Rights: 'as we seek to establish full equality for America's gay and lesbian citizens, I will provide more effective leadership than my opponent.' As well, he handed out literature at gay pride events saying, 'Mitt and Kerry [running mate Kerry Healey] wish you a great Pride weekend! All citizens deserve equal rights, regardless of their sexual preference.'

What's interesting is that this organization in Massachusetts working on an extremely anti-gay platform (this is their main issue) actually points all of this out. See http://www.massresistance.org/ and click on "The Mitt Romney Deception." Romney's newfound gay-hating, gun-toting, pro-life tactics are a complete political farce...and I let the gay-bashers do the digging for me to prove that.

What's interesting is that Romney's new book attempts to swing Christians his way. If they actually knew what Mormons believed, would they think otherwise? Here are just a few tidbits found on What is Mormonism.com

The Mormon Church teaches ALL other Churches are wrong; ALL their creeds are an abomination in the sight of God; and all their teachers are corrupt. Mormonism teaches there is no salvation outside the Mormon Church and no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. Mormons are taught to doubt the reliability of the Bible and their leaders have consistently attacked its accuracy. A basic tenant in Mormonism today is that Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan. The Book of Mormon says of the Bible, "The Sectarian Dogma of Justification by Faith Alone has exercised an influence for evil." Mormons are taught to "shake hands" with a messenger to determine if he is from God or if he is the devil. Joseph Smith taught the moon was inhabited by people who dressed like Quakers and lived to be about 1000 years old. Mormons believe that God had sex with Mary.

My point is that Christians are DEFENDING a guy whose faith is all but blasphemous against their deity but they're only getting behind him because he's a gay bashing, pro-life, gun-toting convert. They think that because now he's subscribing to their extremist views that he's a good guy. One reader comment to his book, "Differing faiths can help each other when it is called for." Note how so many will accept someone of a religion that next to spits in the face of the man they worship just because he hates and loves the same things they do. Is it only blasphemous if you're not a gay basher?

I think the whole issue here is that religion provides a shield of protection around anti-gay sentiment and while I realize that people of faith in the liberal spectrum are helping in the fight, I also think that it's rather naive to purposefully ignore the role that religion provides in this all. It fuels the fire in a person just looking for a reason to project their anger. Moreover, do the passive faithful in our support also provide their shelter when they do little to educate others in the same respect for fear of how it will make them look? The "love the sinner, hate the sin" argument does absolutely nothing for our case. I think it's an issue that gets ignored far too often and isn't really mentioned b/c you run the risk of losing the support of those of faith who do support you when so few will. Do you address the individuals making the attacks and remain on the defensive end all of the time or do you proactively address the source of the problem? There's never an easy answer here but I think it's worth at least paying a little more attention to. Without religion fueling the fire of anti-gay hatred where would equal rights be? Personally, I don't think we'd even be HAVING this discussion if that were the case. Despite popular claims, studies show that the number of non-theistic believers in the US has doubled in past 10 years and I think that's one of the main reasons we're seeing this slow increase in a move toward equal rights. Studies also show that countries with the least religion typically do better overall so I think this only adds to our case. Likewise, other studies show that religion increases violent behavior and has a negative effect on the crime rate. Again, something we should pay more attention to.

On another note, I was listening to NPR this morning and I heard (I believe it was Pat Bauer, leader of the Indiana Democratic House) say that the gay issue turned into a heterosexual issue where domestic violence victims may be at risk. Is this how they see this issue? When it affects the heterosexuals then it's time to pay attention to who the law is affecting? It's okay if domestic violence happens within the GLBT community and they aren't protected but let's step up when it affects our fellow straight people? Even to those who say they didn't want the law they may have ONLY said no for the sole factor that it affects straights, not just gays. That right there said a lot to me.

Lynette

-----------------------------------------------

Jamie Raskin to Senator Nancy Jacobs
"Senator, when you took your oath of office, you placed your hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. You did not place your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible."

Flemming Rose
“When theists say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission…”

 

Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”


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Religion sucks.

Religion sucks.


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Self-hatred

Agreed. My issue is that the gay community has become bedfellows with leaders of faith to take up our cause and I personally don't see how that does anything to eradicate the very thing that preaches our demise. I find it nothing more than self-hatred. If the studies show the less religion the more gay accepting then there's something to be said for addressing religion not asking for support of preachers who might shelf one of the tenents of their faith to support you. It becomes nothing more than a revolving door.

Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”


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I was always stumped as to

I was always stumped as to why gays would even want to be part of a religion that despises them.  As you've clearly stated, if there was no religious doctrine encouraging hatred towards homosexuals, we'd be on the clear road to equal rights. 

Out of all the nonsense that religion espouses, this one always blows my mind.  I really think a person's sexual choice is really their own business and not that of the church or state.  I mean that in a completely 'adult consensual' context, so for all you theists out there, please don't throw in the tired false argument of 'homosexuals are pedophiles'.

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I'm 100% straight but find

I'm 100% straight but find religion bullshit and much more harmful than good.


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pariahjane wrote: I was

pariahjane wrote:

I was always stumped as to why gays would even want to be part of a religion that despises them.

I've often wondered the same thing about women, since most religions treat them as lesser beings.  I think their acceptance of the treatment is mostly due to the lifetime of religious indoctrination being difficult to overcome.  Still, I wonder if you don't like being despised as a homosexual, would you try to improve things by being a gay atheist?  I speculate that many gays, are trying (consciously or unconsciously) to change the religious treatment of them, rather than abandon their faith that's been drilled into their heads since an early age.  

Responsibility: A detachable burden easily shifted to the shoulders of God, Fate, Fortune, Luck or one's neighbor. In the days of astrology it was customary to unload it upon a star. ~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1911


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pariahjane wrote: I was

pariahjane wrote:

I was always stumped as to why gays would even want to be part of a religion that despises them. As you've clearly stated, if there was no religious doctrine encouraging hatred towards homosexuals, we'd be on the clear road to equal rights.

Another question: Why are there Log Cabin Republicans? 

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That's a good question. I

That's a good question. I think once the Republican party virtually all but destroyed party line definitions that any self respecting gay person would have jumped ship. But that's what makes most gay "christians" and "republicans" what they are ... they're not self-respecting. Not at least if you look at what they're supporting.

Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”


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econgineer I've often

econgineer

I've often wondered the same thing about women, since most religions treat them as lesser beings.  I think their acceptance of the treatment is mostly due to the lifetime of religious indoctrination being difficult to overcome.  Still, I wonder if you don't like being despised as a homosexual, would you try to improve things by being a gay atheist?  I speculate that many gays, are trying (consciously or unconsciously) to change the religious treatment of them, rather than abandon their faith that's been drilled into their heads since an early age.  

[/quote wrote:

I suppose it could be seen as trying to change it from within the religion itself.  I think that if I were gay and raised in a religious household, that I would completely abandon my faith.  Then again, I'm not gay nor did I grow up in a religious household so I guess I can't really put myself in their shoes.

I think the bigotry of religion would be the most difficult thing to change.  Certain rules and what not have be relaxed, but the bigotry is still there.

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econgineer

econgineer wrote:
pariahjane wrote:

I was always stumped as to why gays would even want to be part of a religion that despises them.

I've often wondered the same thing about women, since most religions treat them as lesser beings. I think their acceptance of the treatment is mostly due to the lifetime of religious indoctrination being difficult to overcome. Still, I wonder if you don't like being despised as a homosexual, would you try to improve things by being a gay atheist? I speculate that many gays, are trying (consciously or unconsciously) to change the religious treatment of them, rather than abandon their faith that's been drilled into their heads since an early age.

 

I think it's kind of hard to make a strong argument against a faith-based claim if you yourself subscribe to it. Unfortunately that's what so many people try to do and IMO makes them look like they really ARE guilty of something. How do you address the question of: How can you be a Christian and think that your religion doesn't support hatred towards you? There's only one thing I can think of and it's that they pick and choose and think that it's going to matter. The measure of a view on a particular group of people in our society is directly based on which religious group outshines the other. In 20 years the liberal pick-and-choosers might win but in another 20 the neocons might rear their ugly heads again and take the lead. It's all so very archaic and ignorant. 

Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”


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It seems to me, the only

It seems to me, the only people who are despised more than gays in this country are atheists.  Why would a gay person add that much more hatred to himself when it's just started being ok to be gay in this country?

I'm straight, so I don't know what it's like to come out as gay, but I know how incredibly difficult it is to come out as an atheist.  I can understand why a lot of gays who might be agnostic/atheist wouldn't admit it.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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I actually agree with the

I actually agree with the premise of this thread - the religious fanatics are to blame for the hate because, if they bothered to actually read the bible, it is not for any Christian to condemn another person.  Hate the sin, not the sinner...that means to love the individual no matter their offenses because God will judge the person in the end.  For Christians, it is SUPPOSED to be about love and the gentle correction of a person's misteps...not hate.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: I

razorphreak wrote:
I actually agree with the premise of this thread - the religious fanatics are to blame for the hate because, if they bothered to actually read the bible, it is not for any Christian to condemn another person.  Hate the sin, not the sinner...that means to love the individual no matter their offenses because God will judge the person in the end.  For Christians, it is SUPPOSED to be about love and the gentle correction of a person's misteps...not hate.

Why does god care so much about the homosexuals and fornicators?  It seems to me that he should have more important things to worry about. 

It's plain bigotry and hatred in the Bible (and not all of it, I understand that.  We're focusing on a gay issue right now).  This is a fact, the Bible condemns homosexuality.  People interpret the Bible.  People hate the gays because of what they have read in the Bible. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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pariahjane wrote: Why does

pariahjane wrote:
Why does god care so much about the homosexuals and fornicators? It seems to me that he should have more important things to worry about.

Maybe I'm missing what you mean by this question.  God cares about all of his creations...not just homosexuals and fornicators. 

pariahjane wrote:
It's plain bigotry and hatred in the Bible (and not all of it, I understand that. We're focusing on a gay issue right now). This is a fact, the Bible condemns homosexuality. People interpret the Bible. People hate the gays because of what they have read in the Bible.

The bible condemns the sin, not the sinner.  Only God will condemn the sinner if he/she is not of the elect.  There is a difference.  Unfortunately, a lot of people miss that point. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


Lynette1977
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razorphreak wrote: I

razorphreak wrote:
I actually agree with the premise of this thread - the religious fanatics are to blame for the hate because, if they bothered to actually read the bible, it is not for any Christian to condemn another person. Hate the sin, not the sinner...that means to love the individual no matter their offenses because God will judge the person in the end. For Christians, it is SUPPOSED to be about love and the gentle correction of a person's misteps...not hate.

Are you even READING what you're WRITING? First you say that it's "not for any Christian to condemn another person" but in the same breathe claim that it's the right of Christians to take part in a "gentle correction of a person's misteps." Which is it, my theist friend? Judge or not? How self-righteous to assume that a christian should correct someone else of what they view as a "mistep."

Hate the sin, love the sinner is nothing more than an excuse to get another convert. You claim to LOVE THE SINNER to make them THINK that Christianity isn't about judging them, hook them, then use the Bible to tell them how wrong they are on everything in their life because an archaic book says so. It's nothing more than a tactical tool in the arsenal of what you think your god wants of you.

The fact of the matter is that if religion did not exist, as we know is true of prior cultures and even studies (if you had read my original post thoroughly) gay-bashing wouldn't even exist. You'd be surprised to know that in many cultures being transgender or bisexual is actually NORMAL. It's religion that has cause such hatred and no matter how many times apologists or pseudo christians claim that you can't "hate gay people" it's pretty hard not to read black and white print to know they're just picking and choosing like the ones bashing gays.

Oh, and by the way, the Bible clearly states that Jesus claimed that he didn't come to change the old teachings of the Old Testament which pretty much blows the anti-old testament xtian views out of the water. Claiming to love the sinner, hate the sin or accepting gays because Jesus was a peace loving hippy is just a lie to justify one's lack of want for angry worship.

Matthew Ch. 5

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Pretty clear cut if you ask me.

Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

pariahjane wrote:
Why does god care so much about the homosexuals and fornicators? It seems to me that he should have more important things to worry about.

Maybe I'm missing what you mean by this question. God cares about all of his creations...not just homosexuals and fornicators.

pariahjane wrote:
It's plain bigotry and hatred in the Bible (and not all of it, I understand that. We're focusing on a gay issue right now). This is a fact, the Bible condemns homosexuality. People interpret the Bible. People hate the gays because of what they have read in the Bible.

The bible condemns the sin, not the sinner. Only God will condemn the sinner if he/she is not of the elect. There is a difference. Unfortunately, a lot of people miss that point.

Wow. If GOD hated the sin, I guess he must have lied when he says that they should be put to death then, eh? Or is that just YOUR interpretation? If he hates the sin but not the sinner there would be no need to put them to death...but he does advocate such behavior. Again, seems pretty clear to me.  

Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”


razorphreak
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You know you guys really

You know you guys really surprise me here...

Lynette1977 wrote:
First you say that it's "not for any Christian to condemn another person" but in the same breathe claim that it's the right of Christians to take part in a "gentle correction of a person's misteps." Which is it, my theist friend? Judge or not? How self-righteous to assume that a christian should correct someone else of what they view as a "mistep."

Do you not know the difference? If you told me that 2+2 is 5, and I told you you're an idiot, that's juding you. If you told me the same and I told you, no, it's four and here's why, that's correction.

Lynette1977 wrote:
Hate the sin, love the sinner is nothing more than an excuse to get another convert. You claim to LOVE THE SINNER to make them THINK that Christianity isn't about judging them, hook them, then use the Bible to tell them how wrong they are on everything in their life because an archaic book says so. It's nothing more than a tactical tool in the arsenal of what you think your god wants of you.

You must have met some really interesting characters in your time.  As I've posted before, I have no interest in converting anyone - that's God's job (look at the thread on free will).  People who go into a correctional thing with motives to prove they can convert someone are not doing God's will but their own.  Would I use bible verses to back up what I say?  Yes.  Would I tell someone to come to church with me?  No.  I'm not going to tell anyone to believe as I believe but I will let them know what it is I believe.

Lynette1977 wrote:
the Bible clearly states that Jesus claimed that he didn't come to change the old teachings of the Old Testament which pretty much blows the anti-old testament xtian views out of the water. Claiming to love the sinner, hate the sin or accepting gays because Jesus was a peace loving hippy is just a lie to justify one's lack of want for angry worship.

Answered in other threads...the short answer here - what does fulfill mean? In the context of what Jesus spoke in Matthew 5 it means that HE has become all sacrifices and he becomes the example. The OT no longer applies because Christians understand the old law has been met by Jesus' sacrifice.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Besides that goofy little

Besides that goofy little line in the book of Leveticus about who man should lay with and how, I believe there is another greater reason why there is such a religious slant on anti-gay activism. Being anti-gay is unjustifiable and non-sensical; it doesn't mesh with the way our current society works. However, there is a pragmatic approach to religion that makes it somewhat taboo to question any particular theistic belief. That makes religion a great place to preach baseless bigotry.

If I stand in a room occupied by 100 people and say "I hate queers and I think we should kill them all because they're sick." the most positive response I'm probably going to get is laughter. If I stand in that same room and say "Jesus commands me to hate all queers. I believe we should kill them all because the bible says they're sick. Obviously god backs this up, because of what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah." the reaction will be diffrent. Some people will actually listen to me, whether or not they agree with me. The diffrence is very subtle, but very important. In the first statement, I claim personal responsibility for my prejudice. In the second statement, responsibility falls on my religion. I'm just following the rules here. This is why our Fred Phelps' are so much more dangerous than our Emminems.

Despite what it may or may not say in religious scrpture, responsibility must be implied upon the advocates of homophobia. It is not their religion that makes them think this way. It is their own maladjusted psychology and in many cases, their own repression and denial of who they really are that makes them this way. If you're not quite convinced, I challenge you to use this test the next time you're debating the subject. Ask the following question: "Let's say that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't in the bible, and god had no problem with gays. Would you still have a problem with them?" I have yet to receive an answer that wasn't "of course I'd still have a problem with them. They're sick!"

That was a great letter, Lynette. 

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


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  Just to clear the air

  Just to clear the air here razorphreak, do you believe that being gay is a 'mistep'?


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I believe that engaging in

I believe that engaging in homosexuality is first not what was intended and goes against what I believe to be morally correct.

With that said, I am not a fool either.  What I believe to be morally correct is not what someone else may believe.  I also am not a person who would hold someone else's beliefs against them.  If a person is gay, that does NOT make them a bad person; all it does is make them a person who follows a lifestyle that I do not agree with. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: I

razorphreak wrote:

I believe that engaging in homosexuality is first not what was intended and goes against what I believe to be morally correct.

With that said, I am not a fool either. What I believe to be morally correct is not what someone else may believe. I also am not a person who would hold someone else's beliefs against them. If a person is gay, that does NOT make them a bad person; all it does is make them a person who follows a lifestyle that I do not agree with.

Fair enough.  So, what do you think god's judgement of homosexuals is? 

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


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Quote: If I stand in a room

Quote:
If I stand in a room occupied by 100 people and say "I hate queers and I think we should kill them all because they're sick." the most positive response I'm probably going to get is laughter.

Actually, immaculate, it's worth noting that if you did exactly this, 90 out of 100 people would most likely assume you were a christian.

Funny... I wonder why that would happen...

 

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I'm not so sure that

I'm not so sure that religion is the source of anti-homosexuality. I think it fans the flames, but I think the source is simple egotistical disgust. I personally have nothing against people who are gay, but I don't find men attractive, and don't think much of the idea of having sex with one. Disgust is perhaps too strong a word in my position, but it adequately covers a number of people I've encountered over the years. Some people are literally disgusted at the thought of sex with the same sex, and then figure that they have the right to impose that view on everyone. Which they don't, and can't. So they turn to allies. And most every religion stands waiting to be called upon. Since religion was created by man anyway, I figure it's possibly something that some prude found disgusting to his/her sensibilities 2200 years ago, and decided to make it an issue of religion.

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Vastet wrote: Some people

Vastet wrote:
Some people are literally disgusted at the thought of sex with the same sex, and then figure that they have the right to impose that view on everyone. 

That actually makes me chuckle because a gay friend of mine once told me that the thought of sex with a woman made him wretch.  

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ImmaculateDeception

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
Fair enough. So, what do you think god's judgement of homosexuals is?

I honestly have no idea.  The bible tells us that God will forget those who forget him (Romans 1) and I know that doesn't sound good. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
Fair enough. So, what do you think god's judgement of homosexuals is?

I honestly have no idea. The bible tells us that God will forget those who forget him (Romans 1) and I know that doesn't sound good.

Forgets him? Catholics teach gays are born gay but not to "act" on how they were born. If they don't act on it but are still gay does that qualify as forgetting him or not or is this just your interpretation?  

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Susan wrote: Vastet

Susan wrote:
Vastet wrote:
Some people are literally disgusted at the thought of sex with the same sex, and then figure that they have the right to impose that view on everyone. 

That actually makes me chuckle because a gay friend of mine once told me that the thought of sex with a woman made him wretch.  

I've encountered the same. It makes sense that it would work both ways. Rather reinforces my view on the matter as well.

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Susan wrote: Vastet

Susan wrote:
Vastet wrote:
Some people are literally disgusted at the thought of sex with the same sex, and then figure that they have the right to impose that view on everyone.

That actually makes me chuckle because a gay friend of mine once told me that the thought of sex with a woman made him wretch.

Right. At what point to straight people remember realizing they were straight? It's actually quite common on other species to participate in homosexual behavior. Humans are no different. It's only religion that teaches it's evil and nothing more.  

Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”


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Vastet wrote: Susan

Vastet wrote:
Susan wrote:
Vastet wrote:
Some people are literally disgusted at the thought of sex with the same sex, and then figure that they have the right to impose that view on everyone.

That actually makes me chuckle because a gay friend of mine once told me that the thought of sex with a woman made him wretch.

I've encountered the same. It makes sense that it would work both ways. Rather reinforces my view on the matter as well.

 

Actually, ReligiousTolerance.org goes into detail on why the translation is wrong about "gays" anyway.  

Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”


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Lynette1977

Lynette1977 wrote:
Actually, ReligiousTolerance.org goes into detail on why the translation is wrong about "gays" anyway.

That site refers only to 1 Corinthians 6.

What I wrote on the other thread:

the word used in Lev 20:13 is the hebrew word "zakar" (Strongs 02145) which is correct in its usage. I will submit that in 1 Cor 6 it is possible that the writings are in reference to "sexual immorality" and not specifically "homosexual" (although what I've researched so far, the word "arsenokoites" does in fact mean homosexual activity and the NASB, which is the most litteral translation, has it correct), however Romans 1:27 is VERY clear in the context of homosexuality.

Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Lynette1977 wrote:
Forgets him? Catholics teach gays are born gay but not to "act" on how they were born. If they don't act on it but are still gay does that qualify as forgetting him or not or is this just your interpretation?

Romans 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

 It speaks not of the person who may say they are gay but does not act, it speaks of the person who did give in to their lusts.

 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
Fair enough. So, what do you think god's judgement of homosexuals is?

I honestly have no idea. The bible tells us that God will forget those who forget him (Romans 1) and I know that doesn't sound good.

You didn't answer the question and I'm sure you do have an idea.  Try again. 

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I've been reading up on the

I've been reading up on the subject of homosexuality and religion and I thought I'd offer my two cents.  I was going to stay away from this altogether because I noticed that this is the Freethinking Anoymous area, which is supposed to be free of people like me.  But some theist has already posted so I figured that I'd go ahead and say something.

It will probably surprise you.

First, homosexuality is immoral according to the Bible.  The Bible does condemn homosexuals to death.  But, this is in an ancient suzerainty treaty that was made between God and the Israelites.  Therefore, while we can glean universal morals from it, we cannot expect to enforce the penalties described in it.  That means that no Christian has the right to kill a gay person.  In fact, doing so would be murder.  I've said in other threads, but it bears repeating here, that Christians are supposed to be salt and light to the world.  We are commanded to preach the Gospel to the entire world, and the last I checked that world includes homosexuals.  Should we win them as converts, and convince them of the Bible's infallible authority in faith and morals, then we can reason with them from Scripture why that type of relationship is not God-glorifying.

Until that happens, we cannot expect to judge these individuals by our standard of morality.  As Christians, we should be more concerned with evangelism and discipleship than with state policies on marriage.

With that in mind, our noses should be out of that arena altogether.  The secular governments are installed by God (Rom 13:1), and as a result make decisions only with His stamp of approval.  If gay marriages are instituted by the secular authorities, that won't change any church's policy of not marrying such folks.  In fact, it may even open up more witnessing opportunities as gay couples come to a church to talk about getting married, but instead talk to the pastor about why he won't marry them.  With gentleness and reverence, of course, as the apostle Peter commands.

The bottom line is this: if society deems gay marriages acceptable, we don't have to.  "Taking up our cross" and following Jesus means that we will have to live counter-culture to society at times.  This will hardly be the first time.  It's high time that the US Christian finds out what it is like to be a persecuted minority, which is the case in many other places for Christians.

Finally, if talking with the folks on this site has taught me anything, it is that church should never dictate state policy.  I'm not a gay marriage supporter, but if that is the way society is going to go, then we should not stand in the way.  There are many other, more quiet ways to oppose this, starting with simply living the life God has called us to live and showing love to our neighbors, gay or straight. 

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. --Galileo Galilei


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Lynette, that was a great

Lynette, that was a great text and I really enjoyed reading it.

I am gay myself, althought I am not part of any religious institution, and I wonder myself why some gays and lesbians want to be part something that hates them for what they are. It is like a jew joining the Nazi party.

I know that christians and other believers are now claiming to "hate sin, but not the sinner". That is retarted, because it is like saying "I don't hate you, I just hate what you are". Go ahead, experiment and replace the words 'sin' and 'sinner' with any other real-life consept:

  • "I don't hate women, I hate womanhood" or
  • "I don't hate jews, I hate judaism".


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MisterDax wrote: Lynette,

MisterDax wrote:

Lynette, that was a great text and I really enjoyed reading it.

I am gay myself, althought I am not part of any religious institution, and I wonder myself why some gays and lesbians want to be part something that hates them for what they are. It is like a jew joining the Nazi party.

I know that christians and other believers are now claiming to "hate sin, but not the sinner". That is retarted, because it is like saying "I don't hate you, I just hate what you are". Go ahead, experiment and replace the words 'sin' and 'sinner' with any other real-life consept:

  • "I don't hate women, I hate womanhood" or
  • "I don't hate jews, I hate judaism".

 

Thanks for pointing that out. I see it like this: If you love me, just accept me for who I am and don't try to say because you think who I am is wrong that your opinion should be used to dictate what state rights I should get. I'm a human being and I deserve the same rights and if you think otherwise, move to Iran where religion decides everything but don't try that shit here. I get real tired of the superiority complex in religion where people say "if the state decides it..." but that's ignoring the fact that they themselves are a part OF the state. They'll vote AGAINST equal rights based on THEIR religious motivations so in the end, they really don't mean what they say. Until Christian's change their belief that people deserve equal rights wholly regardless of differences EVEN IF their Bible says it's wrong, it's all irrelevant. They're lenient on thousands of other things but just this ONE do they cling to. Why? I'll never know. 

Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”


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Quote: Finally, if talking

Quote:

Finally, if talking with the folks on this site has taught me anything, it is that church should never dictate state policy. I'm not a gay marriage supporter, but if that is the way society is going to go, then we should not stand in the way. There are many other, more quiet ways to oppose this, starting with simply living the life God has called us to live and showing love to our neighbors, gay or straight.

So are you saying when faced to vote on if GLBT citizens should have equal access to legal rights that you do ("marriage" documents) that you'll vote yes because church should never dictate state policy? 

Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”


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Lynette1977 wrote: Susan

Lynette1977 wrote:
Susan wrote:
Vastet wrote:
Some people are literally disgusted at the thought of sex with the same sex, and then figure that they have the right to impose that view on everyone.

That actually makes me chuckle because a gay friend of mine once told me that the thought of sex with a woman made him wretch.

Right. At what point to straight people remember realizing they were straight? It's actually quite common on other species to participate in homosexual behavior. Humans are no different. It's only religion that teaches it's evil and nothing more.  

You are quite wrong. I have seen a great many atheists and non-theists decry homosexuality as wrong, from viewpoints that had nothing to do with religion. Religion is not the only source of villification.

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I knew a friend who couldn't

I knew a friend who couldn't care less about religion, and she still was against gay sex. She said that according to science a couple meant a man and a woman or something along those lines.


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Lynette1977

Lynette1977 wrote:
Quote:

Finally, if talking with the folks on this site has taught me anything, it is that church should never dictate state policy. I'm not a gay marriage supporter, but if that is the way society is going to go, then we should not stand in the way. There are many other, more quiet ways to oppose this, starting with simply living the life God has called us to live and showing love to our neighbors, gay or straight.

So are you saying when faced to vote on if GLBT citizens should have equal access to legal rights that you do ("marriage" documents) that you'll vote yes because church should never dictate state policy?

If it came to a public vote, I'd have to vote my conscience, naturally.  I'd have to vote no.

Christians are trying to force this morality on other people who don't believe in the Bible.  That is not right.  That is what I'm trying to decry: the crappy treatment of homosexuals by Christians, who are supposed to be "loving their neighbor as themselves."  That is really what I'm trying to get across in my previous post.

To clarify, I am talking about decisions made at high levels, such as state Supreme Courts.  Obviously, I still possess the personal freedom to vote my mind and my conscience on an issue like that--I made it very clear that I'm personally opposed to gay marriages.

Are you advocating removing my right to vote according to my beliefs?  Last I checked, in the United States, we could still do that.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. --Galileo Galilei


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Quote: Are you advocating

Quote:
Are you advocating removing my right to vote according to my beliefs? Last I checked, in the United States, we could still do that.

Don't worry, no one is trying to take away your right to take the right to marry away from someone else.

Honestly, I don't understand why there is a gay marriage debate. Why is it so immoral for two consenting adults who love each to tie the knot? Can you provide me with a half-way decent reason beyond "the bible says so."?

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


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MisterDax wrote: I know

MisterDax wrote:
I know that christians and other believers are now claiming to "hate sin, but not the sinner". That is retarted, because it is like saying "I don't hate you, I just hate what you are".

You assume too much.  You're right about one thing, I don't hate you.  Thing is, I don't hate what you do because that would still be hating on you as an individual.  To hate sin means to not agree with doing it yourself, not hating on it because someone else is doing it.  If it's your choice to be gay then so be it and may God bring you peace.  Don't read so much into it until you get to know the person... 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

MisterDax wrote:
I know that christians and other believers are now claiming to "hate sin, but not the sinner". That is retarted, because it is like saying "I don't hate you, I just hate what you are".

You assume too much. You're right about one thing, I don't hate you. Thing is, I don't hate what you do because that would still be hating on you as an individual. To hate sin means to not agree with doing it yourself, not hating on it because someone else is doing it. If it's your choice to be gay then so be it and may God bring you peace. Don't read so much into it until you get to know the person...

You're backpedaling and not making a whole lot of sense in the proccess. You say you don't have a problem with someone who is gay and then you follow this by saying you don't agree with the concept of being gay. I suppose what you're saying would make sense if you were talking about something like a particular taste in music, a style of fashion or even a political slant. These things can change in an individual over time. This is not relavant to homosexuality, since being gay is most certainly not a choice.

Homosexuality is as much of a "lifestyle choice" as your race or eye colour. A gay person can cease having relations with members of the same sex. They can even go as far as to force themselves into a marriage with someone of the opposite sex. However, that does not mean they will cease being homosexual, since they have always been that way and will continue to be this way. I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and say that you don't truly understand what it is to be gay. However, you need to understand what MisterDax says holds alot of truth. Being gay is a large part of who he is, and the kind of sentiment you are expressing is a denial of who he is.

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ImmaculateDeception

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
You're backpedaling and not making a whole lot of sense in the proccess. You say you don't have a problem with someone who is gay and then you follow this by saying you don't agree with the concept of being gay. I suppose what you're saying would make sense if you were talking about something like a particular taste in music, a style of fashion or even a political slant. These things can change in an individual over time. This is not relavant to homosexuality, since being gay is most certainly not a choice.

Homosexuality is as much of a "lifestyle choice" as your race or eye colour. A gay person can cease having relations with members of the same sex. They can even go as far as to force themselves into a marriage with someone of the opposite sex. However, that does not mean they will cease being homosexual, since they have always been that way and will continue to be this way. I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and say that you don't truly understand what it is to be gay. However, you need to understand what MisterDax says holds alot of truth. Being gay is a large part of who he is, and the kind of sentiment you are expressing is a denial of who he is.

I've done no such "backpeddling" and I responded the way I did to make more sense to those who assume too much.  Obviously, it didn't work.

I take it you believe that you are born gay or not.  I don't.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:

razorphreak wrote:

I take it you believe that you are born gay or not. I don't.


seriously get bent, i can tell you tis not a choice , i am gay did i get a say in it no , do i want to be gay no , but thats who i am and i will not have you or anyone else for that matter get away with such dumbass claims as its a choice,

you arent gay , you cant make the claim, if you dont know how it feels to be gay. or are you making the calim becuase you are gay but you "choose" hetro lifestyle? cause if you do its called being a closet case , jsut cause you dontlet your self act upon the emotion dosnet make you any less gay

no one sane would choose it , why casue its a crap as life to live , i cant walk down a street holding hands with my boyfrind or publicly diplay my affection for fearing of being prousctued, i cant get married if i deisired it and i loss a lot of different rights.

 

to me and the gay world a favour and jump of the next bridge you see

 

cheers


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Quote: I've done no such

Quote:
I've done no such "backpeddling" and I responded the way I did to make more sense to those who assume too much. Obviously, it didn't work.

Actually, you just took what you originally said and sugar-coated it further. You might not define that as backpedaling, but I sure as hell do.

Quote:
I take it you believe that you are born gay or not. I don't.

And you are incorrect in that belief. Here are two reasons why:

How a mother's genetics influence her child's sexuality.

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060224_gay_genes.html

How gay men respond diffrently to pheromones

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/ap_050510_pheremones.html

 

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


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Malice wrote: i can tell

Malice wrote:
i can tell you tis not a choice , i am gay did i get a say in it no , do i want to be gay no , but thats who i am and i will not have you or anyone else for that matter get away with such dumbass claims as its a choice,

If that's what you honestly believe then so be it.  God be with you either way... 

Malice wrote:
to me and the gay world a favour and jump of the next bridge you see

Have I told you the same?  Then why tell me that?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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ImmaculateDeception

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
And you are incorrect in that belief. Here are two reasons why

All from the same source.  Tell me, why accept that "science" and not the other studies that say otherwise?  How do you explain those who are gay one minute and straight the next?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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How many times do we have to

How many times do we have to see Christians who claim their rights are being violated when they are prevented from violating other peoples' rights?

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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
And you are incorrect in that belief. Here are two reasons why

All from the same source.  Tell me, why accept that "science" and not the other studies that say otherwise?  How do you explain those who are gay one minute and straight the next?

Maybe because it's actual science rather than psuedoscientific bullshit? And in the cases you are talking about, how about maybe they aren't really straight, they are just trying to be because your mythology has them convinced there's something wrong with how they are?

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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You ever found yourself

You ever found yourself attracted to men Razor?

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razorphreak wrote: Malice

razorphreak wrote:

Malice wrote:
i can tell you tis not a choice , i am gay did i get a say in it no , do i want to be gay no , but thats who i am and i will not have you or anyone else for that matter get away with such dumbass claims as its a choice,

If that's what you honestly believe then so be it. God be with you either way...

pfft and may the force be with you to , luke skywalker.

 

Malice wrote:
to me and the gay world a favour and jump of the next bridge you see

Have I told you the same? Then why tell me that?

 

why tell you that, because people like you make me sick .


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Vastet wrote: You ever

Vastet wrote:
You ever found yourself attracted to men Razor?

Can't say I have.

Malice wrote:
why tell you that, because people like you make me sick .

People like me?  People who don't discriminate against you because you are homosexual?  People who don't shove their beliefs down your throat if you don't want to hear them?  I'm not here to tell you believe in my God and if your hatred blinded you to that point I'm sorry.  You still don't know me...and you still don't understand....

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire