So I was at a Burger King along Interstate 81 South

LeftofLarry
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So I was at a Burger King along Interstate 81 South

at the drive thru window as I was taking my fiancee and her kids to a safari zoo when a bowling pin shaped man comes out of the passenger car directly behind me. He ws walking towards the entrance to the restaurant when he stopped looked back at me, walked towards my side of the car and says "You know, there is no such thing as Separation of Church and State in the Constitution of the United States." I looked at him and give him a smart ass smirk and said "Oh YES there is" he looks back at me and said "No there isn't" and walked into the restaurant.

It is funny how these fucking theist xtians want to shove their religion down our politics. They think they have a monopoly on our government. The problem is, is that these are just sheep, molded to believe what the elitist church leaders want them to so that they are controlled and make people like Jerry Fallwell very very rich. Obviously the revisionist type of history these people are taught in their churches is so twisted that it makes them very angry when they see the truth.

Fact of the matter is this....I was happy that I pissed him off because it is a fact that atheists are becoming more vocal and coming out of the woodworks in places like South West Virginia where there is a church almost at every mile.

It gives me great satisfaction to know that I am pissing these people off just be showing up in their home turf with my multi-racial family and enjoying ourselves. My freedom of speech---speaks much louder than their ignorance and they are getting so angry that the truth is finally reaching them.

Check out my new blog on myspace if you have an account and am on your friends list...regarding our trip to the zoo and camping..it's fun....


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Man, West Virginia?? How do

Man, West Virginia?? How do you suvive.....


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If you want to get

If you want to get extremely technical about it then he's right.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;".

It doesn't actually SAY Separation of Church and State, though it's clearly understood to be interpreted as such. I've actually heard fundies use that argument so thought I'd throw it in here. 


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I'm from West Virginia.

I'm from West Virginia.

You'd be surprised at just how many of us are non religious. I've recently started posting atheist essays and various other information on our local message board, and I've gotten more positive replies than negative.

I think things like the RRS are gaining media attention and that's giving people the courage to "come out" about their non beliefs.


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AnointedHeathen wrote: If

AnointedHeathen wrote:

If you want to get extremely technical about it then he's right.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;".

It doesn't actually SAY Separation of Church and State, though it's clearly understood to be interpreted as such. I've actually heard fundies use that argument so thought I'd throw it in here.

Which is why the "there's no separation of church and state in the Constitution" line pisses me off. It's dishonest.

I try to avoid using "separation of church and state." I just say "the establishment clause."

If anyone gives me grief about it I ask them two questions:

1. Where does the term "separation of church and state" come from?
2. I ask them if they've ever heard of the "Lemon test"

I usually get blank stares, especially with #2. Goes to show that most of these no "separation of church and state" people don't know shit.


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is Burger King any good?

is Burger King any good?


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22jesus22 wrote: is Burger

22jesus22 wrote:
is Burger King any good?

 

actually..it sucks. 


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crushingstep7 wrote: Man,

crushingstep7 wrote:

Man, West Virginia?? How do you suvive.....

I mean Southwest Va. 


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AnointedHeathen wrote: If

AnointedHeathen wrote:

If you want to get extremely technical about it then he's right.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;".

It doesn't actually SAY Separation of Church and State, though it's clearly understood to be interpreted as such. I've actually heard fundies use that argument so thought I'd throw it in here.

 

That has been interpreted over and over and over by the courts and also by our founding fathers to establish a government that is free from the influence of the church.

 

From Wikipedia:

The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and adding his own thoughts, writes: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."[2]

Another early user of the term was James Madison, the principal drafter of the United States Bill of Rights, who often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state" (1819 letter to Robert Walsh). "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," Madison wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States" (1811 letter to Baptist Churches). This attitude is further reflected in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, which was originally authored by Thomas Jefferson, but championed by Madison. The Declaration guarantees that no one may be compelled to finance any religion or denomination.

 

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution states that: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"  Together with the Free Exercise Clause, ("or prohibiting the free exercise thereof&quotEye-wink, these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the religion clauses.

This has been interpreted as the prohibition of 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress and 2) the preference of one religion over another or of religion over non-religious philosophies in general. The first approach is called the "separationist" or "no aid" interpretation. In separationist interpretation, the clause, as historically understood, prohibits Congress from aiding religion in any way even if such aid is made without regard to denomination. The second approach is called the "non-preferentialist" or "accommodationist" interpretation. The accommodationist interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.

 

Also, let's not forget the Treaty of Tripoli, which gives you insight into our founding father's implications of the First Ammendment:  (again from Wikipedia)

Article 11, reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

I'll add this: This country was not founded on christian principles, at least not as a constitutional democracy.  The reason is simple and historically accurate.  This country was essentially founded to escape religious persecution.  The founding fathers, being deists, knew that all too well...that is why they decided that a free constitutional democracy has got to leave religion out of government in order to ensure that all religions and non religionists alike are treated equally.  It is logically impossible to have a constitutional FREE democracy when you are knee deep in a theocratic dictatorship, which is exactly why people left europe in the first place. And the thing that I don't understand is that these people don't even realize how fucking detrimental it is to religion to have it intertwined with government.  The other irony I find here is this, the xtian right is so quick to want to be aided by government, to get money to make theocratic laws..but are so quick to agree that they should not pay taxes. Why is that?  You want to be part of this government start by paying taxes.

NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION is God mentioned.  The fact that the words "separation of church and state" are not specifically mentioned within the constitution is a straw man argument.   It is the implied that matters here, not the words themselves.

 

Sorry for the long post.... this subjects irks me a bit. Smiling 

 

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There's nothing about "free

There's nothing about "free enterprise" directly mentioned in the Constitution, either.

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Was this the safari park

Was this the safari park near Natural Bridge/Lynchburg?  That place is a hoot.


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LeftofLarry

LeftofLarry said:

Quote:
where there is a church almost at every mile.
That far apart?! Eye-wink I know that there's at least a dozen churches and one xian college within one mile of my house here in OKC, OK. Churches here outnumber Starbucks, 7-11, and KFC combined by 10 to 1 easily!

The phrase "Seperation of church and state came from a couple of letters that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists.

Thomas Jefferson said:

Quote:
Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. -- to Danbury Baptists, 1802.
Strickly speaking there is no wall in the U.S. Constitution.

 

My favorite Jefferson quote is...

Quote:

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

and

Quote:

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Start with Jefferson and you'll get a basic understanding of the Constitution.

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Tomcat wrote: Was this the

Tomcat wrote:
Was this the safari park near Natural Bridge/Lynchburg? That place is a hoot.

 

THat's the one. Smiling 

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Nimitz68

Nimitz68 wrote:

LeftofLarry said:

Quote:
where there is a church almost at every mile.
That far apart?! Eye-wink I know that there's at least a dozen churches and one xian college within one mile of my house here in OKC, OK. Churches here outnumber Starbucks, 7-11, and KFC combined by 10 to 1 easily!

The phrase "Seperation of church and state came from a couple of letters that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists.

Thomas Jefferson said:

Quote:
Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. -- to Danbury Baptists, 1802.
Strickly speaking there is no wall in the U.S. Constitution.

 

My favorite Jefferson quote is...

Quote:

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

and

Quote:

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Start with Jefferson and you'll get a basic understanding of the Constitution.

 

Exactly....If they want to argue with the interpretation of the establishment and the free exercise clause of the  1st ammendment, then I highly suggest you start reinterpreting the 2nd ammendment on to what "arms" actually mean.  If you want to get technical about things, if you think there isn't a wall separating church and state, then perhaps the literal interpretation of the 2nd ammendment is only applicable to guns that were popular during that time.  The point here is this, the intent of the establishment clause and the free exercise clause is exactly how Jefferson put it.  This is NOT a government that was founded on christian ideals.  The xtian right is once again using strawmen fallacies in order to hijack and monopolize our government.  The words "separate church and state" are not in the constitution, but it is clearly implied, based on logic.  You cannot have a theocratic state and still be considered a free constitutional democracy, the two are antithetical to each other.

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This is a thread that

This is a thread that religious freaks should read. They could use the education. They'd deny it, of course, but it would be in their face!


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SassyDevil wrote: This is a

SassyDevil wrote:
This is a thread that religious freaks should read. They could use the education. They'd deny it, of course, but it would be in their face!

 

WE can only hope they get educated.....one day. 

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There's a woman who's on a

There's a woman who's on a message board I frequent, and she's an Xian fundie. When I pointed out quotes showing that our Founding Fathers even said this wasn't a Christian nation, she said that historical information is just that--history. When history serves their needs, Xians call it factual; when it doesn't, it's fiction.


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Hey LeftofLarry, Do you

Hey LeftofLarry,

Do you have a bumper sticker on your car that says something about the seperation of church and state? If that had been me that he approach, I would have assumed it was because of the bumper sticker on my car that reads: The Christian Right is Neither.

Not exactly a church & state message, but I would have been really freaked if he had done that to me without an provocation whatsoever. Unless he was just a weirdo going up to everybody and saying that. 

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rab wrote:

rab wrote:

Hey LeftofLarry,

Do you have a bumper sticker on your car that says something about the seperation of church and state? If that had been me that he approach, I would have assumed it was because of the bumper sticker on my car that reads: The Christian Right is Neither.

Not exactly a church & state message, but I would have been really freaked if he had done that to me without an provocation whatsoever. Unless he was just a weirdo going up to everybody and saying that.

Yeah, I have a few bumper stickers on my car. One says "Freedom means separation of church and state" that's what he was referring to. I forgot to mention that part.

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I had a fellow co-worker

I had a fellow co-worker say to me at the end of the day when we were walking to our cars:

"I wondered whose liberal car that was." I knew what he meant because of the sticker and the fact that he's a fundie. 

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Too bad you didn't have a

Too bad you didn't have a chance to say something like, "Regardless of whether you agree, don't you defend my right to say it?"

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