Help! Get out your bookmarks folks!
Offline I need a little help folks.
My father and I are on the outs a bit since I let him know I'm atheist. He's quite the fundie. Catholic, viet-nam vet, pro George Bush, et cetera.
A while back we had a little spat where he said the founding fathers intentions were that the USA was to be a christian nation. I said, we can't know their thoughts, only what they wrote... He disagreed, and I disagreed with him disagreeing. We dropped it at that rather than have it turn into a fistfight. That was about two months ago, and we haven't mentioned it since.... But it's been stewing in his brain and tonight he comes back at me by e-mailing me this crap:
This is probably one of the best historical ' Christian ' and most patriotic presentations I have ever seen. It should be read by every American, especially our children and grandchildren. Please read it and then pass it along to all who love our wonderful country.
http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/forsakenroots.html
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Before he sent it to me he insisted that ALL the founding fathers were CHRISTIAN, and they wanted this to be a CHRISTIAN NATION.
I asked him if there was anything about Thomas Jefferson in this e-mail and he said, "Yep, caonrary to all that crap you read about Jefferson, he was a Christian. It says so in his own words."
So, with that,... I do have to say that I think there is some hope for my dad. I'd like to think he's a pretty smart guy, but he's just been totally sucked in by the whole "being a christian" thing a few years back. Swallows alll the christian propaganda hook line and sinker. He's a real authoritarian, so there's no discussion about anything in my house.... What he says, goes and that's that. But since he's actually trying to convince me of something for a change, I feel I have license to do the same back to him. Believe me, if it were any other jackass I'd probably not waste my time. But this jackass is my dad....
So help me out guys and girls. I need some good links I can spam him with that contains as much info as possable about the crap that was in that e-mail he sent me. Also whatever else you have that has to do with the founding fathers of the USA and their stance on religion and how it pertains to the state.
I want to hit him hard and fast. 
Thanks in advance all!!
Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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Uhh... that was supposed to be contrary in the above post. Not caonrary. I don't know how that came out of my fingers.
Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
I was always under the impression they were either Athiests, Masons or some other followings that have since died or collapsed to nothing more than cults. I've been lead to beleive that it was the Irish who brought Christianity to America. Proof can be seen in the money with the pyramid and eye that some of the notes have. It is the reason why the original constitution (un-amended) specifically mentioned seperation of church and state. The words "in god we trust" were only added a long time later.
... I am Australian though, so I'm not exactly the best person to go to as far as American history is concerned.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
Censored and blacked out for internet access in ANZ!
AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Founding_fathers
Here's a good quote from usconstitution.net
http://dim.com/~randl/founders.htm
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html
Dude be careful. I am not sure where you live (it sounds like the states), but in some states argueing in the home is domestic violence and can land you in jail. I got into it with a fundie step dad in Washington over him calling me a dirth atheist. I put him in the hospital for six weeks, and myself in jail for 10 months.
The best thing to do is move out, as your dad is a dumb ass.
http://freethinkernation.com
Many of the founding fathers were Masons. Let's get back to our roots and become a Masonic country again.
Many of the founding fathers held slaves. Let's get back to our roots and start holding slaves again.
Putting someone in a hospital doesn't sound like 'arguing'. If you stick to words, you'll be fine.
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
Thanks soo much everybody! You guys kick ass.
I know moving out would be best for me... I will be moving out as soon as I graduate and get a job. If I thought my physical health was threatened, I could leave in a heartbeat. But it isn't, and I don't think it will be. I know he's a dumb ass... And if I met him on the street, I'd probably avoid him... But since he's my pop, I have this little problem. I love him, and I can't help but feel that he is just the victim in this case. If there is any hope for him, I'll find it. Because I know for a fact that no one else in this world gives a shit for what my dad feels or thinks.
Mindspread, Rage, A.I.W., Thanks for the links and quotes. I used them all!
If you can find more, please post 'em! I know this debate will not end here.
Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
Have your father heard of The treaty of Tripoli? Article 11 of that treaty reads:
"As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen (Muslims); and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
The treaty of Tripoli was read before and passed unanimously by the United States Senate, and was signed by the President of the United States without a hint of controversy or discord.
If the United States was founded as a Christian nation I don't think that the Senate of 1797 would unanimously pass the treaty. And president Adams wouldn't have signed it into law. These people were all alive during the revolution and the creation of the United States.
Hey buster, I think a really good tactic in arguing the value of the establishment clause with a Christian is to show how beneficial church-state separation is for religious people.
Do some reading up on Roger Williams, a very religious man and theologian, co-founder of the Rhode Island colony, but most importantly a vehement pre-Constitution supporter of keeping church and state separate.
Back then, arguing for church-state separation had very little to do with protecting non-theists, but everything to do with protecting religionists from other religionists. (Specifically, to protect --->Catholics<--- and Anabaptists, et. al., from discrimination coming from Congregationalists.)
Just ask him how he'd react if the Mormons gained a foothold in the federal government and established their religion as the National Religion (that phrase is important). Or Muslims. Or $cientologists. I can almost guarantee he would cite the shit out of the "establishment" clause. If he does, ask him why Christianity, no matter which sect, should be any different.
I mean, hell... part of the reason people left England to come here in the first place was because of religious persecution due to the establishment of the Church of England (modern Anglican church). It would seem to have been counter-productive to just re-establish a government-endorsed religion, eh?
I think it's very cool that you two are still talking. In my opinion, there's still hope for your relationship if you're talking. Wish I had more quotes for you, but the other guys on this board are way more educated about sources than I am. I'm much better with concepts than I am with specifics.
Karen and her hounds
creating art ~ creating a new life
Hi Buster,
I give you a lot of credit for not being angry (or at least not sounding angry). Obviously your dad has positive qualities that you admire or you wouldn't even bother with the debate.
I did notice that you mentioned "he's just been totally sucked in by the whole "being a christian" thing a few years back." If this is a somewhat new thing to him, that might explain his enthusiasm. Perhaps he might mellow with time? It might also mean it's possible for him to change his thinking if provided with the right arguments.
I wish you luck.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
Here's a superb free resource:
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/index.htm
Thomas Paine's Age of Reason is just superb - it's 200 yrs old and could have been written yesterday. Why is Paine relevant? He was one of the founders of the whole American idea of liberty, he created the name the United States of America and he's acknowledged to have inspired Washington and John Adams to fight for independence - Washington made all his men read one of his pamphlets before crossing the Delaware! Thomas Edison said 'I have always regarded Paine as one of the greatest of all Americans'. So maybe your dad can be convinced to give the man at least a cursory read...