Arguments for Theism

Technarch
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Arguments for Theism

1. People are naturally inclined to believe in something greater than themselves, or in the supernatural, or hold superstitious beliefs. No matter how hard or how actively atheists try to argue against theism, it will still exist and will never go away.

2. Religion makes people happy. Think of all the happy people who have a guaranteed spiritual reward. Taking that away would lead to a life of no spiritual consequence- you could smoke, drink, sleep around, and do harm to others. You would still have some morals, but overall have a more negative outlook on life, with nothing to look forward to after death, no hope of seeing loved ones on the other side, and no greater knowledge or awareness of the universe after death.

3. Religion pacifies people. Crusades and holy wars are always an example of the extremities of religion, but for the non-fundamentalist everyday citizen, religion brings peace and comfort. It leads to stable societies. Think of warlords in Africa who kill, steal and start war with no remorse, or corrupt governments who feel no guilt at stealing from the populace. Sure some of the war and genocide in Africa is based on religious extremism, but if was based on stable Christian society then people would have a reason to get along with each other. Otherwise, I can kill, rape and pillage in a society where civil laws are sparse (the argument that we all look out for our best common interests applies less in third world countries, or in itself causes war and conflict)

4. You can never disprove anything. No argument seems more fallacious than "because I said so." Or even worse, "because you're stupid." Yet this is what many atheist arguments are based on- "your beliefs are silly and I say you're being irrational."

5. Arguing against religion will only make it stronger. Trying to actively fight and destroy religious belief will only make religion gain new defense mechanisms, more thickheaded people who are willing to stand by their beliefs, and more fundamentalism. Rather than hear that there is no god, the theist will say you're under the influence of Satan, and that your atheist arguments are inherently Satanic in order to trick them into going to Hell. You can never win against that kind of reasoning.

6. Truth isn't that important. Truth is great for intellectuals, for the educated, for the self aware. But like the terminally ill patient, they would much rather die happy than learn they have two weeks left as a cancerous, comtatose vegetable who will be too weak from chemotherapy and other treatments to see their loved ones on their death bed- instead, the patient can be told that things will get better, that the treatment will work, and give a hopeful smile to their family before starting treatment. Saying "there's no hope for you, it probably won't work" will only lead to further depression. Happiness is more valuable than truth.

7. People cannot cope with a limited lifespan. No matter how many people you try to convince, there will always be people who cannot accept the idea of living and dying with no spiritual consequence. The idea that we have only a few decades of life, then cease to be forever, is something that many can never accept.

8. Religion is ingrained in human culture. Even if a majority of the world were atheist, there would be constant reminders to churches, saints, old beliefs, and notions of god. Everyday language such as God bless you or God damn would still be around. The nutritional idea of mind-body-spirit would be meaningless. People would still seek out fortune tellers, new age and pseudoscience, believing in invisible energy attached to nutrition or medical treatments or mind powers. Faith would exist in the form of further devotion to scams that people would put their hope and trust in.

9. Taking an atheist view requires dismissing and perhaps insulting a great number of cultures and civilizations. To look at Judaism, Catholocism, Protestantism, LDS, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism and others as nothing but superstition would be very disrespectful. All the traditions, celebrations, holidays, rituals, observances, dietary restrictions, funeral practices, weddings, times of worship, and other functions would all be spiritually meaningless. All the history, myth, lore, written works, architecture, and religious history would mean nothing. Whether a first world country or a third world country, treating all religions as something to be dismissed is extremely disrespectful towards that culture.

10. People should be allowed to do whatever they want. If we all have a limited lifespan, and there are no spiritual consequences, then surely it doesn't matter what happens on Earth. We can all die believing or not believing. We can die in religious warfare, totalitarian violence, fundamentalist terror. Sure you can be philanthropic and try to have all people strive for peace and harmony and the betterment of all human knowledge and achievement, but so what? We all die anyway. There's not much of a point to life besides making some miniscule human achievement, and at most getting your name in a history book. If death is something that can be accepted, then so can the inevitable pain and human suffering- believing in some social utopia of lasting peace and harmony is just as faith based and delusional as a belief in heaven.

 

 


MattShizzle
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Most of this is so

Most of this is so ridiculous as not even to deserve to be replied to. I'll answer some of it, though. Wouldn't it make people happier to believe there was a Santa Claus that would bring everyone what they want? Is it true? enough said. On the utter idiocy of not being able to disprove -- can you prove there is not a teapot orbiting the sun that is too small to be seen by telescopes? Of course not. Any sane way of thinking demands that positive claims require proof. Anything else leads to madness (note this has been addressed on this site approximately 987,855,487,654,619,865 times.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


ShaunPhilly
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Welcome, Technarch.  Many

Welcome, Technarch.  Many of the questions you have asked have been answered in a number of places already, and any sufficient time reading the forums spent on your part would have given you answers.  Nonetheless, knowing that some people are not inclined to research information but rather prefer to have their questions answered directly, I will answer each briefly for you.

Technarch wrote:

1. People are naturally inclined to believe in something greater than themselves, or in the supernatural, or hold superstitious beliefs. No matter how hard or how actively atheists try to argue against theism, it will still exist and will never go away.

This may very well be the case.  I have often thought that there will always be theists, no matter how good atheist arguments are and how little evidence for a god is.  This does not mean that those who are capable of comprehending the reasons why atehists lack belief should simply not try.  

Also, the fact that we are naturally inclined to something doe snot mean that many cannot also circumvent this tendency to make the choice to research and introspect this tendency to possibly transcend it. 

Quote:
2. Religion makes people happy. Think of all the happy people who have a guaranteed spiritual reward. Taking that away would lead to a life of no spiritual consequence- you could smoke, drink, sleep around, and do harm to others. You would still have some morals, but overall have a more negative outlook on life, with nothing to look forward to after death, no hope of seeing loved ones on the other side, and no greater knowledge or awareness of the universe after death.

Don't think of it so much as taking away happiness or comfort as taking away a falsehood.  The implication that life without these types of beliefs are "spriritually" vacant is also not true.  While I don't believe in the spirit (in the sense of a soul--I do believe in it in the sense Nietzsche talked about), I do live a life full of meaning, purpose, enjoyment, happiness (as well as momenst of depression, feelings of lack of direction, being bored, sadness, etc--I'm human).  I don't see being without god-belief as having a negative outlook.  I may not have things to look forward to after death, but I have plenty to look forward to before death.  I don't need eternal life or promised answers, happiness, ruinion after death to have meaning here.  In fact, the idea taht i will not live on means I appreciate what I have here, now.  I appreciate the community here, my friends IRL (and there is some overlap there), family, etc.  

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3. Religion pacifies people. Crusades and holy wars are always an example of the extremities of religion, but for the non-fundamentalist everyday citizen, religion brings peace and comfort. It leads to stable societies. Think of warlords in Africa who kill, steal and start war with no remorse, or corrupt governments who feel no guilt at stealing from the populace. Sure some of the war and genocide in Africa is based on religious extremism, but if was based on stable Christian society then people would have a reason to get along with each other. Otherwise, I can kill, rape and pillage in a society where civil laws are sparse (the argument that we all look out for our best common interests applies less in third world countries, or in itself causes war and conflict)

Stable, peaceful, and healthy societies are possible for religious people, sure.  The simple fact is that a non-religious society is also capable of this stability and peacefulness.  Keep in mind taht while the United States, where I live, is highly culturally religious (mostly Christian), the government itself is secular.  The government neutrality that the Constitution outlines, when followed, has made American society somewhat stable.  And if you want a better example, look at Sweden, Japan, or other very secular societies as examples.  

The existence of laws has little to nothing to do with religion.   

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4. You can never disprove anything. No argument seems more fallacious than "because I said so." Or even worse, "because you're stupid." Yet this is what many atheist arguments are based on- "your beliefs are silly and I say you're being irrational."

This is not what atheist arguments are like.  It is true that atheists sometimes say these types of things, but that does not mean that atheist arguments are limited to such ad hominem statements.  Read the forums more and you'll find what arguments for atheism look like.

Atheists don't claim to have disproven anything; they simply say that they do not believe in one thing--gods. Someone who says that god does not exist is not claiming that they have disproven any and all gods, but that they have found logical inconsistencies that make certain definitions of god impossible.  So, it is true taht I cannot disprove any and all concepts of God, but at the same time I never said that I could.  I say that I don't have any reason to believe any gods exist.  I'm open to evidence, however.

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5. Arguing against religion will only make it stronger. Trying to actively fight and destroy religious belief will only make religion gain new defense mechanisms, more thickheaded people who are willing to stand by their beliefs, and more fundamentalism. Rather than hear that there is no god, the theist will say you're under the influence of Satan, and that your atheist arguments are inherently Satanic in order to trick them into going to Hell. You can never win against that kind of reasoning.

There are some elements of truth to what you say.  It is true that, when faced with reason, science, etc, many theists become fundamentalist (cf Karen Armstrong's The battle for God).  These defense mechanisms are a problem, but it is the fault of those that build them, and not of those to whom they are being built as a defense from.  

Saying that we are being influenced by Satan is, indeed, an example of this happening.  The fact that people need to create these rationalizations in order to not consider our questions, critiques, or lifestyles is a weakness, not a strength.  We may not win against it, but we have the right to make our case.  what others do with it is not our responsibility.

So, we can try different methods to reach these thick-headed people, but in the mean-time we can talk to those who are not so thick-headed, and perhaps if enough non-thick-headed people start to change their minds, maybe the thick-headed people will begin to notice and come out of their defense structures.  This is Sam Harris' point.  We need to get to the moderates so that the moderates can stop acting as a buffer zone that lends support to the defenses of those fundamentalists you talk about. 

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6. Truth isn't that important. Truth is great for intellectuals, for the educated, for the self aware. But like the terminally ill patient, they would much rather die happy than learn they have two weeks left as a cancerous, comtatose vegetable who will be too weak from chemotherapy and other treatments to see their loved ones on their death bed- instead, the patient can be told that things will get better, that the treatment will work, and give a hopeful smile to their family before starting treatment. Saying "there's no hope for you, it probably won't work" will only lead to further depression. Happiness is more valuable than truth.

The truth is important, but some cases it might not be as important as other considerations.  In the case you cite, I might agree in most cases.  I certainly see no point in trying to argue religion with a dying person.  Some might try, but I wouldn't.  But the truth is important for the rest of us, those who are likely to live a healthy life for some time. 

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7. People cannot cope with a limited lifespan. No matter how many people you try to convince, there will always be people who cannot accept the idea of living and dying with no spiritual consequence. The idea that we have only a few decades of life, then cease to be forever, is something that many can never accept.

It is not my responsibility to hide anything that people might not be able to deal with.  If there are people that cannot handle certain facts or truths, that is their weakness, not my responsibility.   People's fears are crutches that hold them back from social, emotional, and intellectual growth.  We cannot hold our ideas at bay simply because feelings may be hurt.  

Quote:
8. Religion is ingrained in human culture. Even if a majority of the world were atheist, there would be constant reminders to churches, saints, old beliefs, and notions of god. Everyday language such as God bless you or God damn would still be around. The nutritional idea of mind-body-spirit would be meaningless. People would still seek out fortune tellers, new age and pseudoscience, believing in invisible energy attached to nutrition or medical treatments or mind powers. Faith would exist in the form of further devotion to scams that people would put their hope and trust in.

Our goal is to teach rationality.  Our goal is to rid the world of theism, not of the memory that people were theists.  I'm not concerned with churches being around; we can use them for all sorts of things.  The religious language, metaphors, etc will eventually either absorb non-religious connotations or simply fade away over time.  As for alternatives popping up, sure taht's a problem.  It's already happening with Christianity being replaced by cults, new age woo-woo-ism, paganism, and other jive nonsense.  We are prepared to deal with that as well.  

The fact that this is a daunting task does not mean we don't try. 

Quote:
9. Taking an atheist view requires dismissing and perhaps insulting a great number of cultures and civilizations. To look at Judaism, Catholocism, Protestantism, LDS, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism and others as nothing but superstition would be very disrespectful. All the traditions, celebrations, holidays, rituals, observances, dietary restrictions, funeral practices, weddings, times of worship, and other functions would all be spiritually meaningless. All the history, myth, lore, written works, architecture, and religious history would mean nothing. Whether a first world country or a third world country, treating all religions as something to be dismissed is extremely disrespectful towards that culture.

We have the ability to either get rid of many of these things or simply adopt them with non-supernatural menaing.  Atheists still like holidays, rituals, etc (in many cases---I don't particularly) .  I really don't care who I'm insulting, because it is not my intent to insult, but to inform and help.  The offense taken is always the fault of the offended.  

Quote:
10. People should be allowed to do whatever they want. If we all have a limited lifespan, and there are no spiritual consequences, then surely it doesn't matter what happens on Earth. We can all die believing or not believing. We can die in religious warfare, totalitarian violence, fundamentalist terror. Sure you can be philanthropic and try to have all people strive for peace and harmony and the betterment of all human knowledge and achievement, but so what? We all die anyway. There's not much of a point to life besides making some miniscule human achievement, and at most getting your name in a history book. If death is something that can be accepted, then so can the inevitable pain and human suffering- believing in some social utopia of lasting peace and harmony is just as faith based and delusional as a belief in heaven.

No, we should not be able to do whatever we want.  

The problem here is taht you seem to be implying that either there is some ultimate, infinite, and objective meaning given to us or there is none.  The meaning, purpose, and feelings taht we have--although finite--is significant.  If there is no god, supernatural, etc, then these finite things become more important.

Utopia may not be possible, but we can certainly improve the world.  Imagine what the world would be like if people in the past took your view about the problems they had.

Imagine someone looking at the United States in the early 19th century as saying something like the following;

Man, this slavery thing is terrible.  But we should try to do anything about it because no matter what we do, there will still be people who think blacks are inferior, there will still be social inequalities, and all effort will be wasted.  Also, thin of all the  happiness that slaves have; just look at them singing! Also, the slave-owners are pretty happy too.  You know, this is the way the world is and there is nothing i can do about it.

Your attitude is defeatist and obnoxious.  You assume that life without belief in god is nihilistic, immoral, and pointless.  At the same time, you seem to be almost lamenting that the belif cannot be overcome.  You may be underestimating humans a bit there.  

Like i said, you may be right and perhaps there will always be theists no matter what.  at the same time, the struggle is worthwhile, because I envision a world where people are not deluded from youth, meaning that the transition will not be painful, as you paint it.

Shaun 

 

 

 

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


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My responses are numbered

My responses are numbered to correspond with your pionts.

1. How do you know this?

2. Good job of generalizing all atheists. Did you know that religious people also have negative outlooks and don't behave with morals. Didn't Newt just admit to having an affiar??

3. Have you heard of the middle east??

4. Yes you can. Go read a legitimate science book.

5. How is this an arguement for theism?

6. Truth is not important to the schizophrenic either. I guess you agree that belief in God and relgion is a mental disorder.

7. These individuals just lack appropriate coping skills. Similar to someone with a psychological disorder.

8. Yes, and so is war. Do we want to keep that around??

9. Don't quite understand how someones personal worldview and beliefs are insulting to others. Sorry for thinking!

10. Are you saying that the only reason you don't kill, rape, and steal is because of a fear of God??

"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."


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I do not agree with
  1. I do not agree with the premise of this argument. Some people may be inclined to seek supernatural explanations for the unknown however; many others and I reject this “God of the gaps” mentality.
  2. The thought that people can be good only by adhering to the Christian god is laughable. Japan is a prime example of this; compare the crime statistics between both countries. Just because I do not hold that, a supernatural being created everything does not mean I have a “negative” outlook on life.
  3. Here you are nakedly asserting that the only way to a peaceful society is through Christianity…. again look at Japan and numerous other civil societies such as Norway, Sweden etc… You are also minimizing Christianity’s role in violence throughout history.
  4. Not true…. What do you think the Scientific Method does? It demonstrates the truth or falseness of a hypothesis. In addition, the same argument can be used to justify the existence of anything.
  5. So let me get this straight, because theists are irrational and thickheaded, we should not publicly discuss our concerns over the problems it causes. Does it get more pathetic than this?
  6. In what other subject matter on earth is it beneficial to withhold factual information? If I were a cancer patient I would want to know the Doctor’s educated opinion regarding my health, and life sustainability. Fantasyland dreaming, maybe useful to some but has no basis in reality.
  7. Some do not accept the moon landing; some do not accept the holocaust so let’s all just stop talking about it.
  8. Yes, people will always believe weird things. This fact has no correlation with the truth of said strange beliefs.
  9. If it hurts someone’s feelings, simply because I do not believe in their religion I apologize. However, just because someone has his or her feelings hurt; it does not make their beliefs true or beneficial to society. The customs you describe conatin meaning outside of theism such as giving closure and spending time with the friends and family you love.
  10. Our grandchildren and great-grandchild will rely greatly on our “miniscule human achievements”. The atheists I know care a great deal about the earth and its inhabitants.



The “arguments” contained here are humorous indeed.

 

However, when you say that …” believing in some social utopia of lasting peace and harmony is just as faith based and delusional as a belief in heaven.”

I agree with this comment completely. I do hope for peace and harmony on earth….however the power of religious dogma will prevent this from happening for a long long time, if ever at all.

 

Truman

Reason, Observation, and Experience -- the Holy Trinity of Science.
Robert G. Ingersoll


Conn_in_Brooklyn
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Quote: 3. Religion

Quote:
3. Religion pacifies people. Crusades and holy wars are always an example of the extremities of religion, but for the non-fundamentalist everyday citizen, religion brings peace and comfort. It leads to stable societies. Think of warlords in Africa who kill, steal and start war with no remorse, or corrupt governments who feel no guilt at stealing from the populace. Sure some of the war and genocide in Africa is based on religious extremism, but if was based on stable Christian society then people would have a reason to get along with each other. Otherwise, I can kill, rape and pillage in a society where civil laws are sparse (the argument that we all look out for our best common interests applies less in third world countries, or in itself causes war and conflict)

It wasn't religion that brought stability to Western Civilization - it was the criticism and emasculization of religious doctrines and institutions by the enlightenment project.  In many ways, religion is the barbarian in us, telling us to rape, murder, steal, torture ... those were the tools of the state when it was fused with religion and/or dogma (i.e. communism, fascism).  It was modernity and humanism, the recognition of gender equality, racial equality and sexual and reproductive freedom that makes the project of America great and makes atheists among the most patriotic and law-abiding.

 (This is rough, so pardon me ...)

 

 

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Technarch
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These are not my arguments,

These are not my arguments, but they are arguments that are used.  Thanks for the replies.


wisebob134
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Any man that truly believes

Any man that truly believes in Chirstanity has never started a war and if a man has started a war and he truly believes in Chirstanity that war probably wan't justified in the eyes of God.Like the crusades. Alot of people abuse religon like Godhatesfags.com Arguments for Theism is an inaccurate title . "Bias Agruments for Theism" May'be or "Agruments against Theism" Alot of people on this website don't provide unbias facts


deludedgod
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1. People are naturally

1. People are naturally inclined to believe in something greater than themselves, or in the supernatural, or hold superstitious beliefs. No matter how hard or how actively atheists try to argue against theism, it will still exist and will never go away.

That is very cute, but does that make it remotely true? This seems to me an ignorant argumentum ad consequentium.

2. Religion makes people happy. Think of all the happy people who have a guaranteed spiritual reward. Taking that away would lead to a life of no spiritual consequence- you could smoke, drink, sleep around, and do harm to others. You would still have some morals, but overall have a more negative outlook on life, with nothing to look forward to after death, no hope of seeing loved ones on the other side, and no greater knowledge or awareness of the universe after death.

Pathetic. Are you telling me that people need to believe in God to be moral? Are men that weak and pathetic? If you really need God to be a good person, I don't want to be near you. Are you telling me that people need God to be happy? Why? This is another pathetic argumentum ad consequentium.

 3. Religion pacifies people. Crusades and holy wars are always an example of the extremities of religion, but for the non-fundamentalist everyday citizen, religion brings peace and comfort. It leads to stable societies. Think of warlords in Africa who kill, steal and start war with no remorse, or corrupt governments who feel no guilt at stealing from the populace. Sure some of the war and genocide in Africa is based on religious extremism, but if was based on stable Christian society then people would have a reason to get along with each other. Otherwise, I can kill, rape and pillage in a society where civil laws are sparse (the argument that we all look out for our best common interests applies less in third world countries, or in itself causes war and conflict)

That is so ridiculous I dont want to respond, but I will. Quite frightening. Your first sentence "religion pacifies people" is exactly what almost every dictator in history had in mind. Use people's idiotic faith in a higher power to control them. Think about it, its great! They think they are being watched by an omnipotent deity, and if I convince them that I am the medium of that deity, I can bring them under my iron grip. your words ring in the spirit of men like Ayatollah Khomeini and Tomas de Torquemada. The rest of it is a pathetic argumentum ad consequentium that ignores the huge amount of violence generated by "my God is better than yours". I do not know if faith can move mountains...but I have seen what it can do to skyscrapers.

 4. You can never disprove anything. No argument seems more fallacious than "because I said so." Or even worse, "because you're stupid." Yet this is what many atheist arguments are based on- "your beliefs are silly and I say you're being irrational."

So, because we cannot disprove something, we should believe it? That's ridiculous. How old are you? Hey, maybe I should believe a in fluffy pink unicorns as well! It cannot be disproven!

 5. Arguing against religion will only make it stronger. Trying to actively fight and destroy religious belief will only make religion gain new defense mechanisms, more thickheaded people who are willing to stand by their beliefs, and more fundamentalism. Rather than hear that there is no god, the theist will say you're under the influence of Satan, and that your atheist arguments are inherently Satanic in order to trick them into going to Hell. You can never win against that kind of reasoning.

1.1 billion non-religious and counting. This argument is incredibly naive. So, because you think it won't work, we should stand by and allow the evils of religious faith to take over?  Edmund Burke said: The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Well, I am going to paraphrase that:

-The only thing necessary for the triumph of faith is for men of science and reason to do nothing

  Truth isn't that important. Truth is great for intellectuals, for the educated, for the self aware. But like the terminally ill patient, they would much rather die happy than learn they have two weeks left as a cancerous, comtatose vegetable who will be too weak from chemotherapy and other treatments to see their loved ones on their death bed- instead, the patient can be told that things will get better, that the treatment will work, and give a hopeful smile to their family before starting treatment. Saying "there's no hope for you, it probably won't work" will only lead to further depression. Happiness is more valuable than truth.

That is utterly ridiculous, and rings of George Orwell's 1984. Are you insane? It is better for men to seek truth than to cling to delusions, however satisfying (Carl Sagan). Yet ANOTHER Argumentum ad consequentium. Are you addicted to those?

7. People cannot cope with a limited lifespan. No matter how many people you try to convince, there will always be people who cannot accept the idea of living and dying with no spiritual consequence. The idea that we have only a few decades of life, then cease to be forever, is something that many can never accept.

Yeah, like the 9/11 bombers who thought they would get 72 virgins. Another (sigh) argumentum ad consequentium

 8. Religion is ingrained in human culture. Even if a majority of the world were atheist, there would be constant reminders to churches, saints, old beliefs, and notions of god. Everyday language such as God bless you or God damn would still be around. The nutritional idea of mind-body-spirit would be meaningless. People would still seek out fortune tellers, new age and pseudoscience, believing in invisible energy attached to nutrition or medical treatments or mind powers. Faith would exist in the form of further devotion to scams that people would put their hope and trust in.

That does not make sense. It is not an argument.

 9. Taking an atheist view requires dismissing and perhaps insulting a great number of cultures and civilizations. To look at Judaism, Catholocism, Protestantism, LDS, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism and others as nothing but superstition would be very disrespectful. All the traditions, celebrations, holidays, rituals, observances, dietary restrictions, funeral practices, weddings, times of worship, and other functions would all be spiritually meaningless. All the history, myth, lore, written works, architecture, and religious history would mean nothing. Whether a first world country or a third world country, treating all religions as something to be dismissed is extremely disrespectful towards that culture.

WHAT!! Every religion is inherently disrespectful of another. Especially of they believe that the other is going to burn in eternal damnation. That is utterly ridiculous. That is incredibly naive. So you are saying I should not hold a view if it offends other people. Im starting to think this is a joke...

 10. People should be allowed to do whatever they want. If we all have a limited lifespan, and there are no spiritual consequences, then surely it doesn't matter what happens on Earth. We can all die believing or not believing. We can die in religious warfare, totalitarian violence, fundamentalist terror. Sure you can be philanthropic and try to have all people strive for peace and harmony and the betterment of all human knowledge and achievement, but so what? We all die anyway. There's not much of a point to life besides making some miniscule human achievement, and at most getting your name in a history book. If death is something that can be accepted, then so can the inevitable pain and human suffering- believing in some social utopia of lasting peace and harmony is just as faith based and delusional as a belief in heaven.

 

This is direct contradiction to a previous argument: 

 Taking that away would lead to a life of no spiritual consequence- you could smoke, drink, sleep around, and do harm to others. You would still have some morals, but overall have a more negative outlook on life, with nothing to look forward to after death

So. I suppose we should allow Christians in the US to say that evolution is made up. We should allow Muslims to slaughter each other and Christians, and take slave children from Nigeria. We should allow faith to conquer reason and science. You are completely insane. religion is inherently dangerous. This kind of argumentum in terrorum must be a joke.

 

 

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Technarch wrote: 1. People

Technarch wrote:
1. People are naturally inclined to believe in something greater than themselves, or in the supernatural, or hold superstitious beliefs. No matter how hard or how actively atheists try to argue against theism, it will still exist and will never go away.

False. I have never believed in a higher power. This is empirical proof that people are not naturally inclined to believe in something more powerful than themselves.

Technarch wrote:
2. Religion makes people happy. Think of all the happy people who have a guaranteed spiritual reward.

Religion also makes people kill. Think of all the happy people that religion has killed, denying them the ability to enjoy the rest of their lives.

Technarch wrote:
Taking that away would lead to a life of no spiritual consequence- you could smoke, drink, sleep around, and do harm to others.

You can do that anyway, so what's your point?

Technarch wrote:
You would still have some morals, but overall have a more negative outlook on life, with nothing to look forward to after death, no hope of seeing loved ones on the other side, and no greater knowledge or awareness of the universe after death.

False. You will have a more positive outlook on life, knowing that this is your one and only chance to live(and how lucky you are to have recieved it), and that you can actually accomplish something.

Technarch wrote:
3. Religion pacifies people.

This is demonstrably false.

Technarch wrote:
Crusades and holy wars are always an example of the extremities of religion, but for the non-fundamentalist everyday citizen, religion brings peace and comfort.

The non-fundamentalist everyday citizen doesn't stop the crazy fundamentalist war mongers. They are therefore as culpable as the war mongers.

Technarch wrote:
It leads to stable societies.

It does not.

Technarch wrote:
Think of warlords in Africa who kill, steal and start war with no remorse, or corrupt governments who feel no guilt at stealing from the populace. Sure some of the war and genocide in Africa is based on religious extremism, but if was based on stable Christian society then people would have a reason to get along with each other.

There is no stable christian society from which to base this assumption.

Technarch wrote:
Otherwise, I can kill, rape and pillage in a society where civil laws are sparse (the argument that we all look out for our best common interests applies less in third world countries, or in itself causes war and conflict)

How do you figure?

Technarch wrote:
4. You can never disprove anything. No argument seems more fallacious than "because I said so." Or even worse, "because you're stupid." Yet this is what many atheist arguments are based on- "your beliefs are silly and I say you're being irrational.

You are irrational. Matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. I just disproved your god.

Technarch wrote:
5. Arguing against religion will only make it stronger.

On the contrary.

Technarch wrote:
Trying to actively fight and destroy religious belief will only make religion gain new defense mechanisms, more thickheaded people who are willing to stand by their beliefs, and more fundamentalism.

We're not trying to kill people, we're enlightening them. How are you going to fight education?

Technarch wrote:
Rather than hear that there is no god, the theist will say you're under the influence of Satan, and that your atheist arguments are inherently Satanic in order to trick them into going to Hell.

Some might. But others who are watching me make a fool of said theist will see the truth of my words and the falsehood and fallacy of the theists. I will convert more people to atheism through intellectual discourse than they will to theism with insults and fools logic.

Technarch wrote:
You can never win against that kind of reasoning.

Sure I can.

Technarch wrote:
6. Truth isn't that important. Truth is great for intellectuals, for the educated, for the self aware. But like the terminally ill patient, they would much rather die happy than learn they have two weeks left as a cancerous, comtatose vegetable who will be too weak from chemotherapy and other treatments to see their loved ones on their death bed- instead, the patient can be told that things will get better, that the treatment will work, and give a hopeful smile to their family before starting treatment. Saying "there's no hope for you, it probably won't work" will only lead to further depression. Happiness is more valuable than truth.

That's your opinion, and it is a damning one. I'd rather know I was going to die so I can plan for the eventuality instead of being cut off in the middle of something because some asshole had the arrogance to think he knew what I wanted without asking me in the first place.

Technarch wrote:
7. People cannot cope with a limited lifespan.

Bullshit. I do it every day. So does every other atheist, and every theist too.

Technarch wrote:
No matter how many people you try to convince, there will always be people who cannot accept the idea of living and dying with no spiritual consequence.

That's fine, as long as they keep it to themselves.

Technarch wrote:
The idea that we have only a few decades of life, then cease to be forever, is something that many can never accept.

They will die, and those who take their place can accept it as long as they're taught to.

Technarch wrote:
8. Religion is ingrained in human culture.

No it isn't.

Technarch wrote:
Even if a majority of the world were atheist, there would be constant reminders to churches, saints, old beliefs, and notions of god.

So?

Technarch wrote:
Everyday language such as God bless you or God damn would still be around.

So?

Technarch wrote:
The nutritional idea of mind-body-spirit would be meaningless.

The what?

Technarch wrote:
People would still seek out fortune tellers, new age and pseudoscience, believing in invisible energy attached to nutrition or medical treatments or mind powers.

Prove it.

Technarch wrote:
Faith would exist in the form of further devotion to scams that people would put their hope and trust in.

I'd like to see you prove that people thinking more rationally would lead to them falling to scams more easily. The logic just doesn't fly.

Technarch wrote:
9. Taking an atheist view requires dismissing and perhaps insulting a great number of cultures and civilizations. To look at Judaism, Catholocism, Protestantism, LDS, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism and others as nothing but superstition would be very disrespectful.

Too bad. You and they insult the romans and the greeks by looking at their beliefs as myths. How is that any different? What a hypocrite.

Technarch wrote:
All the traditions, celebrations, holidays, rituals, observances, dietary restrictions, funeral practices, weddings, times of worship, and other functions would all be spiritually meaningless.

They already are.

Technarch wrote:
All the history, myth, lore, written works, architecture, and religious history would mean nothing.

If it's only use and application pertains to religion, then such is already true anyway.

Technarch wrote:
Whether a first world country or a third world country, treating all religions as something to be dismissed is extremely disrespectful towards that culture.

No it isn't. It's waking them up to reality.

Technarch wrote:
10. People should be allowed to do whatever they want.

No they shouldn't. Noone should be "allowed" to hurt other people.

Technarch wrote:
If we all have a limited lifespan, and there are no spiritual consequences, then surely it doesn't matter what happens on Earth.

Why not? You think the human species is suddenly going to end and that there will never be a new generation? How selfish can you be?

Technarch wrote:
We can all die believing or not believing. We can die in religious warfare, totalitarian violence, fundamentalist terror. Sure you can be philanthropic and try to have all people strive for peace and harmony and the betterment of all human knowledge and achievement, but so what? We all die anyway. There's not much of a point to life besides making some miniscule human achievement, and at most getting your name in a history book.

You have some really selfish and twisted views if you think the best thing you can accomplish is getting your name in a history book.

Technarch wrote:
If death is something that can be accepted, then so can the inevitable pain and human suffering- believing in some social utopia of lasting peace and harmony is just as faith based and delusional as a belief in heaven.

You're on drugs. And not the good kind.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
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wisebob134 wrote: Any man

wisebob134 wrote:
Any man that truly believes in Chirstanity has never started a war and if a man has started a war and he truly believes in Chirstanity that war probably wan't justified in the eyes of God.Like the crusades. Alot of people abuse religon like Godhatesfags.com Arguments for Theism is an inaccurate title . "Bias Agruments for Theism" May'be or "Agruments against Theism" Alot of people on this website don't provide unbias facts
This is what is known as the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team