Born Again Evangelical Christians

meshblorg
meshblorg's picture
Posts: 71
Joined: 2006-12-24
User is offlineOffline
Born Again Evangelical Christians

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1207357407834951222&hl=en

 I made a video about the Born Again Christians of America.

It uses some of the best clips from "Jesus Camp", a documentary that I've recently seen.

 Even moderate christians and believers should oppose these radicals.   My video's not the best but I really want to show some of this material.


Redeeminator
Redeeminator's picture
Posts: 30
Joined: 2007-02-11
User is offlineOffline
Long, drawn out torture and

Long, drawn out torture and death is too good for those bastards! When I'm pulling my knife from the twitching corpse of the last religion on earth anyone who misses it can blame a UK mob called 'Scripture Union'

 These guys had infiltrated the faculty at my high school and organised summer camps for the kids. I was 13 and pretty ignorant. The phrase 'Scripture Union' and that stupid fish symbol meant absolutely nothing to me. All I saw was Abseiling, rock climbing, kayaking, archery... and signed up.

It was a cross between Auschwitz, the vatican and that place where they took Denzil Washington in the Manchurian Candidate. Kids all around me were dropping like flies, their eyes rolling back in their heads, fixed manic grins, opening their internal organs to jehova's bouncing brat and holding impromptu seances left right and center.

I was a 13 year old scottish ignoramus but I made my own vow during those two weeks: to never rest until I'd slaughtered every single religion on the face of the planet. Fast forward 24 years and the jihad is not going as well as I'd hoped but I'll never give up the crusade.


meshblorg
meshblorg's picture
Posts: 71
Joined: 2006-12-24
User is offlineOffline
I was kinda hoping for a lot

I was kinda hoping for a lot more replies to my video in this forum.Cry


voltaire28
Posts: 38
Joined: 2007-02-16
User is offlineOffline
Nice video!  The first pic

Nice video!  The first pic you show of Haggard is classic comedy...no wonder that ugly bastard had to pay for sex! 

I recently saw another very relevant video about fundamentalist child abuse and "creation science" (an oxymoron, I know!).  It had this old man with a Abe Lincoln beard singing to little children about dinosaurs being in the bible (he said something about "Behemoth was a sauropod&quotEye-wink.  He also offered as propaganda a Photoshopped picture of an ape with a human face superimposed on it, and asked the children, "Does your grandmother or grandfather look like this?" which, of course, illicited a huge laugh from the impressionable kids. 

A young mother was interviewed afterwards and she praised the brainwashing session because creationism "is so easy to explain to my children", as opposed to the complexities of explaining natural selection and evolutionary biology.  The whole video was sickening, and ended with the documentarian questioning a girl in her late teens.  The documentarian asked the young woman what she thought of someone like herself, who believes in the truth of Darwinian evolution.  The young woman responded in a hilariously arrogant way: "Well, maybe you just haven't studied all of the facts and evidence that I have..."  WTF?!?!?  

Does anyone know what video this is?  I can't find the link anymore!  

 


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
I was horrified by that

I was horrified by that documentary. I almost vomited all over the keyboard. It moved me to change my signature.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


meshblorg
meshblorg's picture
Posts: 71
Joined: 2006-12-24
User is offlineOffline
http://youtube.com/watch?v=a

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aLxrmM91SkE

 

I believe that's footage from the HBO Documentary FRIENDS OF GOD.  There's the trailer there with some of the footage you mentioned.


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13211
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
meshblorg wrote: I was

meshblorg wrote:
I was kinda hoping for a lot more replies to my video in this forum.Cry

I'd love to, but I can't watch it to comment on it. Google and youtube have been corporately nuked. Sad

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


rab
rab's picture
Posts: 273
Joined: 2007-02-18
User is offlineOffline
I saw Jesus Camp in its

I saw Jesus Camp in its entirety and that was bad enough. The clips in the google video took the scariest parts and I think its very effective in showing people what rational thinking people are up against.

Support the Separation of Church & State!
Freedom From Religion Foundation


qbg
Posts: 298
Joined: 2006-11-22
User is offlineOffline
That made my blood boil. In

That made my blood boil.

In the Jesus Camp part, did anyone get visions of the RRS crashing into the room?

"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
-- The Economic Tendency of Freethought


meshblorg
meshblorg's picture
Posts: 71
Joined: 2006-12-24
User is offlineOffline
These people need to be put

These people need to be put in prison if they continue to traumatize and brainwash these children. 


rab
rab's picture
Posts: 273
Joined: 2007-02-18
User is offlineOffline
One scene in the film that

One scene in the film that comes back to haunt me is the boy who admits to the flock he has doubts. He then sits and in a meditative position and is probably, in his confused mind, praying either for forgiveness or some kind of sign that god exists.

I don't see this kid growing up to be a fundie. He'll probably, after experiementing with drugs and alcohol, become a counsilor for troubled and abused children from evangelical homes.    

Support the Separation of Church & State!
Freedom From Religion Foundation


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
Does praying to George Bush

Does praying to George Bush count as idol worship?


rab
rab's picture
Posts: 273
Joined: 2007-02-18
User is offlineOffline
Good question. It should.

Good question. It should.


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13211
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
That's not exactly what they

That's not exactly what they were doing there.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


sugarfree
Theist
Posts: 478
Joined: 2007-03-14
User is offlineOffline
rab wrote:

rab wrote:
I saw Jesus Camp in its entirety and that was bad enough. The clips in the google video took the scariest parts and I think its very effective in showing people what rational thinking people are up against.
How many on this site actually believe this movie represents the mainstream "evangelical right"? I haven't seen the movie, but just by reading the outline of the documentary, I can tell it does not. If you would like to spend time "fighting against" the small minority of charismatic Christians, then you can, but I really think a documentary like this is an attempt to fuel hatred for something that exists in small pockets of the country. If you find it your passion to rescue children from this warped type of teaching, then by all means do, I understand that. (I'm not sure telling them "God doesn't exists" is rescuing them, "however" how about telling them that when the disciples spoke in tongues they were speaking actual languages that other human beings could understand. Tongue = Foreign Language. Or how about telling them, Jesus says, no one will know when I am going to return, so it's a waste of time trying to "do" things to bring him back.) Just sayin'. Heck, I have had to ask people "am I an evangelical?" because I don't even know what it means. It's just a dumb label, some stereotype...like the one that says "all atheists are angry," which, you all have informed me, is not true.

magilum wrote:

Then stop pretending “bad Christian experiences” are an aberration necessarily disregarded to reinforce your particular concept of it.

From what I've seen, a great many "bad Christian experiences" are because of the individual, who has something happen to them in a church and then decides to hold a grudge rather than to forgive. (First and foremost, love God, second, love others as you love yourself...two of Jesus's main teachings, and probably also the two most challenging to implement in one's life...but refusing to do either of the two leads to spiritual brokenness, the fruits of which include bitterness and anger.)

Random Moderator wrote:
Moderator Edit: REMINDER! This is the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum for freethinkers only.


Iruka Naminori
atheist
Iruka Naminori's picture
Posts: 1955
Joined: 2006-11-21
User is offlineOffline
meshblorg wrote: These

meshblorg wrote:

These people need to be put in prison if they continue to traumatize and brainwash these children.

I sometimes wish there was some kind of legal recourse available to those of us who were treated this way as children.  Being raised in such a manner does not equip a child for life in the real world.  I'm middle-aged, but I don't feel middle-aged.  I feel like an adolescent still trying to make sense out of what I was taught and what truly is.    All any of us can do is our best.  I was raised by fundies.  I'm handicapped by that experience, but hopefully what I have gone through will enable me to help someone else leave religion or deal with the after-effects.  You gotta just keep on keepin' on, as the old saying goes.

Since the Jesus Camp experience was throrougly documented, maybe someday one of the kids can take on the religious nutjobs that did this to them.  I hope so.

Seriously, mesh, I couldn't watch all of your video.  I watched part of Jesus Camp with RRS in the chatroom, finding I needed the support of other freethinkers in order to stomach that crap.  It reminded me so much of my social studies teacher and my circle of whackjob fundy friends.  Nas-tee! 

Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


Iruka Naminori
atheist
Iruka Naminori's picture
Posts: 1955
Joined: 2006-11-21
User is offlineOffline
Redeeminator: your avatar

Redeeminator: your avatar freaks me out a bit.  I suppose I need to watch your video, huh?

But seriously: a baby with Sith eyes and a black mouth saying something I can't lip-read.  Freaky. Smiling 

Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


thingy
SuperfanGold Member
thingy's picture
Posts: 1022
Joined: 2007-02-07
User is offlineOffline
Iruka Naminori

Iruka Naminori wrote:
Seriously, mesh, I couldn't watch all of your video. I watched part of Jesus Camp with RRS in the chatroom, finding I needed the support of other freethinkers in order to stomach that crap. It reminded me so much of my social studies teacher and my circle of whackjob fundy friends. Nas-tee!

His video I found easily watchable and good.  Jesus Camp on the other hand (which I got last night), I could only bring myself to watch 20 minutes of.  Some of the things they were telling the kids were just so wrong and many thing completely the opposite of how they are in reality (ie the part of the video that kid is watching that says Evolution is just a belief, creationism is scientific).  There was only so much I could take. 

Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
Censored and blacked out for internet access in ANZ!
AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/


Iruka Naminori
atheist
Iruka Naminori's picture
Posts: 1955
Joined: 2006-11-21
User is offlineOffline
sugarfree wrote: rab

sugarfree wrote:
rab wrote:
I saw Jesus Camp in its entirety and that was bad enough. The clips in the google video took the scariest parts and I think its very effective in showing people what rational thinking people are up against.
How many on this site actually believe this movie represents the mainstream "evangelical right"? I haven't seen the movie, but just by reading the outline of the documentary, I can tell it does not. If you would like to spend time "fighting against" the small minority of charismatic Christians, then you can, but I really think a documentary like this is an attempt to fuel hatred for something that exists in small pockets of the country. If you find it your passion to rescue children from this warped type of teaching, then by all means do, I understand that. (I'm not sure telling them "God doesn't exists" is rescuing them, "however" how about telling them that when the disciples spoke in tongues they were speaking actual languages that other human beings could understand. Tongue = Foreign Language. Or how about telling them, Jesus says, no one will know when I am going to return, so it's a waste of time trying to "do" things to bring him back.) Just sayin'. Heck, I have had to ask people "am I an evangelical?" because I don't even know what it means. It's just a dumb label, some stereotype...like the one that says "all atheists are angry," which, you all have informed me, is not true.

Actually I am angry at religionists like this and you should be, too.  I think it's more common to find an "angry" American atheist since this country is run by Christians. 

Growing up, I knew a lot of nutbars like this.  For awhile, I was a nutbar like this.  I still encounter similar nutbars.  Of course, anecdotal stories can't tell a person how many religious nutbars are out there.  Still, similar nutbars like Ted Haggard have the ear of the president on a weekly basis...or had the ear of the president on a weekly basis until, like so many before him, he got caught with his pants down.  I believe George W. Bush himself is a religious nutbar.  What do you say about someone who supposedly said God told him to invade Iraq? That is nutbar-ity of the highest order: world ending nutbar-ity.

I will say this, though: the Christian "faith" inevitably leads to Christian nutbars.  The nutbars are the ones who have read the bible and actually try to practice what it says.  They are the ones who don't make excuses for the text and become just as intolerant as the book itself.  Religious moderates are betraying Christianity and reason equally by not being "on fire for god" and by twisting scripture to suit their own beliefs.

Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


sugarfree
Theist
Posts: 478
Joined: 2007-03-14
User is offlineOffline
Iruka Naminori wrote:

Iruka Naminori wrote:

I will say this, though: the Christian "faith" inevitably leads to Christian nutbars. The nutbars are the ones who have read the bible and actually try to practice what it says. They are the ones who don't make excuses for the text and become just as intolerant as the book itself. Religious moderates are betraying Christianity and reason equally by not being "on fire for god" and by twisting scripture to suit their own beliefs.

I've not had a personal relationship with a Christian nutbar. Except, once I listened to a sermon by a guy that was trying to rationalize away the dinosaurs. He was a junior pastor or something, and I think most of us in the congregation were listening politely, then afterwards asked each other, what in the world was he talking about?

I wish your Christian experience had been different, but, unfortunately, I can't change that for you.

However, I do think blanket statements about any group of people are generally wrong. There are always extremes on the fringes, but then most people hang out somewhere in the middle. A Christian can be in the middle (not too liberal, not too fundamental) and still be "on fire" for God.

Random Moderator wrote:
Moderator Edit: REMINDER! This is the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum for freethinkers only.


meshblorg
meshblorg's picture
Posts: 71
Joined: 2006-12-24
User is offlineOffline
When the Evangelical Church

When the Evangelical Church stands up and punishes/rejects these "radicals" for what they are doing, then that's the day I will stop generalizing.  If they don't reject these bastards, then they are condoning their actions in the name of their church.

Let's imagine like if someone led a church organization and some of my priests were molesting little boys. The the leader doesn't punish and reject them as fucking criminals, then that organization will bear the responsibilty and condones their actions.

 So yeah fuck the Evangelical Church.  Becky Fischer's a fucking star and is viewed as a hero on fucking the 700 club and other bullshit.


magilum
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2007-03-07
User is offlineOffline
I wish your Christian

I wish your Christian experience had been different, but, unfortunately, I can't change that for you.

However, I do think blanket statements about any group of people are generally wrong.

Then stop pretending “bad Christian experiences” are an aberration necessarily disregarded to reinforce your particular concept of it. They're all Christians, even the assholes, because they say they are. When Christians disagree, they factionalize. Aside from biblical literalists, every Christian is living out some form of contradiction with his or her dogma. Yourself included. Odds are, many secular priorities have already become integral parts of your lifestyle, and you don't recognize them out of ignorance of the distinction.

Also, stop fucking evoking religious trauma as an explanation for atheism. You have no trouble rejecting Krishna: do I need to ask what a Hindu did to you? I hate to repeat it, but it's special pleading.

There are always extremes on the fringes, but then most people hang out somewhere in the middle.  A Christian can be in the middle (not too liberal, not too fundamental) and still be “on fire“ for God.

What a load of mealy-mouthed bull.


ImmaculateDeception
ImmaculateDeception's picture
Posts: 280
Joined: 2006-11-08
User is offlineOffline
Turniong a child against

Turning a child against the world before they have developed the critical faculties to discover the world is a great injustice. These kids are going to grow up crippled by hate and tainted with mistrust for every person who does not furiously pound on a bible as they do. The joy of youth is discovering that the world is not black and white; that it's a varied spectrum of experience. They have forever had this precious experience robbed from them by these fundy assholes. They will see nothing out their window but a world filled with gay, baby-killing, god-hating liberals. This is truly sad.

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


sugarfree
Theist
Posts: 478
Joined: 2007-03-14
User is offlineOffline
magilum wrote:

magilum wrote:

Then stop pretending “bad Christian experiences” are an aberration necessarily disregarded to reinforce your particular concept of it.

From what I've seen, a great many "bad Christian experiences" are because of the individual, who has something happen to them in a church and then decides to hold a grudge rather than to forgive. (First and foremost, love God, second, love others as you love yourself...two of Jesus's main teachings, and probably also the two most challenging to implement in one's life...but refusing to do either of the two leads to spiritual brokenness, the fruits of which include bitterness and anger.)

Random Moderator wrote:
Moderator Edit: REMINDER! This is the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum for freethinkers only.
 


meshblorg
meshblorg's picture
Posts: 71
Joined: 2006-12-24
User is offlineOffline
sugarfree wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
magilum wrote:

Then stop pretending “bad Christian experiences” are an aberration necessarily disregarded to reinforce your particular concept of it.

From what I've seen, a great many "bad Christian experiences" are because of the individual, who has something happen to them in a church and then decides to hold a grudge rather than to forgive. (First and foremost, love God, second, love others as you love yourself...two of Jesus's main teachings, and probably also the two most challenging to implement in one's life...but refusing to do either of the two leads to spiritual brokenness, the fruits of which include bitterness and anger.)

I've seen spiritual religious people that are bitter and angry. So don't give me that bullshit.

 

You're a a fucking primate okay? The earth is 4.5 billion years old. It took 500 million years for life to ever come into existance on earth. It took 4 billion years for life to get to where it is now. Theres over 120 billion galaxies out there. Each galaxy has hundreds of billions of stars.

Stop your wishful thiniking that there's some benevolent powerful force (imaginary friend) somewhere out there that gives a damn about you or the events happening in this slither of geologic time known as human history.

I'm going to spend my Sundays hiking through the mountains and enjoying the beach while you pray to yourself and waste hours of life subscribing to your club of wishful thinkers in a meeting house.

 The world can only benefit from more free thinking and abandoment of taking mythological texts for fact.  There's a big difference between being spiritual and being super stitious and holding unproven and unfactual beliefs as absolute truth.


sugarfree
Theist
Posts: 478
Joined: 2007-03-14
User is offlineOffline
meshblorg wrote:

meshblorg wrote:

You're a a fucking primate okay?

If it turns out I evolved from a monkey, I'm okay with that. I like monkeys, apes, whatever. Besides, I still don't see that as proof against God. What (who) caused the big bang?

meshblorg wrote:

The earth is 4.5 billion years old. It took 500 million years for life to ever come into existance on earth. It took 4 billion years for life to get to where it is now. Theres over 120 billion galaxies out there. Each galaxy has hundreds of billions of stars.

Which makes God all the more amazing, if you ask me.

meshblorg wrote:

Stop your wishful thiniking that there's some benevolent powerful force (imaginary friend) somewhere out there that gives a damn about you or the events happening in this slither of geologic time known as human history.

If you can tell me what caused the big bang...what existed before it...how time began...then I might consider giving up my "imaginary friend."

meshblorg wrote:

I'm going to spend my Sundays hiking through the mountains and enjoying the beach while you pray to yourself and waste hours of life subscribing to your club of wishful thinkers in a meeting house.

You spend Sunday by yourself, I'll spend it among friends who love and care about me. Then, maybe I'll go on a walk on Monday. Or maybe even Sunday afternoon. After all, I only spent 8:30 - 12:00 at church this morning. It's a small "sacrifice."

rab wrote:
I saw Jesus Camp in its entirety and that was bad enough. The clips in the google video took the scariest parts and I think its very effective in showing people what rational thinking people are up against.
How many on this site actually believe this movie represents the mainstream "evangelical right"? I haven't seen the movie, but just by reading the outline of the documentary, I can tell it does not. If you would like to spend time "fighting against" the small minority of charismatic Christians, then you can, but I really think a documentary like this is an attempt to fuel hatred for something that exists in small pockets of the country. If you find it your passion to rescue children from this warped type of teaching, then by all means do, I understand that. (I'm not sure telling them "God doesn't exists" is rescuing them, "however" how about telling them that when the disciples spoke in tongues they were speaking actual languages that other human beings could understand. Tongue = Foreign Language. Or how about telling them, Jesus says, no one will know when I am going to return, so it's a waste of time trying to "do" things to bring him back.) Just sayin'. Heck, I have had to ask people "am I an evangelical?" because I don't even know what it means. It's just a dumb label, some stereotype...like the one that says "all atheists are angry," which, you all have informed me, is not true.

magilum wrote:

Then stop pretending “bad Christian experiences” are an aberration necessarily disregarded to reinforce your particular concept of it.

From what I've seen, a great many "bad Christian experiences" are because of the individual, who has something happen to them in a church and then decides to hold a grudge rather than to forgive. (First and foremost, love God, second, love others as you love yourself...two of Jesus's main teachings, and probably also the two most challenging to implement in one's life...but refusing to do either of the two leads to spiritual brokenness, the fruits of which include bitterness and anger.)

Random Moderator wrote:
Moderator Edit: REMINDER! This is the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum for freethinkers only.

 


meshblorg
meshblorg's picture
Posts: 71
Joined: 2006-12-24
User is offlineOffline
sugarfree wrote: meshblorg

sugarfree wrote:
meshblorg wrote:

You're a a fucking primate okay?

If it turns out I evolved from a monkey, I'm okay with that. I like monkeys, apes, whatever. Besides, I still don't see that as proof against God. What (who) caused the big bang?

 --Why does it have to be who? why not a what?  why not a interdimensional rip in the space-time fabric that ignited the big bang?  The truth is theres thousand of ideas out there for why.  We must dismiss all those that are not based on science and fact. 

Ancient texts are wrong about a multitude of things that today we consider common sense (the world revolves around the sun, the earth is round) and therefore cannot be trusted with  the most difficult questions about the cosmos and existance.

meshblorg wrote:

The earth is 4.5 billion years old. It took 500 million years for life to ever come into existance on earth. It took 4 billion years for life to get to where it is now. Theres over 120 billion galaxies out there. Each galaxy has hundreds of billions of stars.

Which makes God all the more amazing, if you ask me.

 -->Where do you base this God of? Oh yeah that's right, you made it up.  And who created God? and who created the creator of god? and who created the creator of the creator of god? etc etc

The creationist argument is easily defeated.  Any thing that has significant intelligence to create anythign has only come into existance through an extremely long evolutionary process.  A supernatural creator that would have the capacity to create a universe could only come into being after an infinitely long time.

 Your idea of a personal God were created by uneducated unscientific primitive peoples.  

 Take a psychology class and realize how your personal creator is a product of your misunderstanding of how the universe came to be.  There's a documentary from the national geographic channel that shows how the big bang worked.

meshblorg wrote:

Stop your wishful thiniking that there's some benevolent powerful force (imaginary friend) somewhere out there that gives a damn about you or the events happening in this slither of geologic time known as human history.

If you can tell me what caused the big bang...what existed before it...how time began...then I might consider giving up my "imaginary friend."

meshblorg wrote:

I'm going to spend my Sundays hiking through the mountains and enjoying the beach while you pray to yourself and waste hours of life subscribing to your club of wishful thinkers in a meeting house.

You spend Sunday by yourself, I'll spend it among friends who love and care about me. Then, maybe I'll go on a walk on Monday. Or maybe even Sunday afternoon. After all, I only spent 8:30 - 12:00 at church this morning. It's a small "sacrifice."

If only you knew how good it feels to understand you and your delusion.


ImmaculateDeception
ImmaculateDeception's picture
Posts: 280
Joined: 2006-11-08
User is offlineOffline
Quote: You spend Sunday by

Quote:
You spend Sunday by yourself, I'll spend it among friends who love and care about me. Then, maybe I'll go on a walk on Monday. Or maybe even Sunday afternoon. After all, I only spent 8:30 - 12:00 at church this morning. It's a small "sacrifice."

You need to give up this idea that atheists are lost, forlorn, angry and lonely individuals. Not that I'd imagine you'd care too much about this kind of thing, but it lacks any grounding in reality. So spend sunday amongst you're terrified, confused and uneducated peers. We'll spend sunday amongst friends.

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13211
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
sugarfree wrote: magilum

sugarfree wrote:
magilum wrote:

Then stop pretending “bad Christian experiences” are an aberration necessarily disregarded to reinforce your particular concept of it.

From what I've seen, a great many "bad Christian experiences" are because of the individual, who has something happen to them in a church and then decides to hold a grudge rather than to forgive.

Why should people forgive an institution that condones and silently supported[s] pedophilia? That condones and verbally supports hatred against visible and less visible groups? That would be the height of irresponsibility. The day your churches and theists show their love for others is the day they can expect to recieve it back in kind. Not one second before.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


rexlunae
rexlunae's picture
Posts: 378
Joined: 2007-01-07
User is offlineOffline
sugarfree wrote: If you can

sugarfree wrote:
If you can tell me what caused the big bang...what existed before it...how time began...then I might consider giving up my "imaginary friend."

I'm wondering, what would be wrong with just saying 'I don't know right now'? If I just made something up, would you accept my answer just because you didn't have a better one?

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


magilum
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2007-03-07
User is offlineOffline
From what I've seen, a

From what I've seen, a great many “bad Christian experiences“ are because of the individual, who has something happen to them in a church and then decides to hold a grudge rather than to forgive.[...]

Who put a quarter in ya? Yeah, I know your premise already; I'm refuting it. The traumatic experience explanation is attractive to you because it takes the heat off questions of the validity of your beliefs by characterizing non-belief as an irrational knee-jerk response. It's an ad hominem. “You're speaking from (some unidentified trauma and) fear, therefore your refutations of specific arguments for belief are invalid.” But if you think “bad” Christians don't represent Christianity and the religion should be judged on its own merits, you ought to understand that many atheists have done just that: but not come up with the answer you like.


magilum
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2007-03-07
User is offlineOffline
I'm wondering, what would

I'm wondering, what would be wrong with just saying 'I don't know right now'? If I just made something up, would you accept my answer just because you didn't have a better one?

No, only if you made it up thousands of years ago, translated it a dozen times, edited it during several different political regimes, and your name was completely garbled or forgotten.


GreyhoundMama
GreyhoundMama's picture
Posts: 76
Joined: 2007-03-09
User is offlineOffline
rexlunae wrote: sugarfree

rexlunae wrote:
sugarfree wrote:
If you can tell me what caused the big bang...what existed before it...how time began...then I might consider giving up my "imaginary friend."
I'm wondering, what would be wrong with just saying 'I don't know right now'? If I just made something up, would you accept my answer just because you didn't have a better one?

 

As far as I can tell, "I don't know" is the most reasonable answer. Certainly saying that the universe is too beautiful, too rich, too complex to have come about itself is absurd. You assume the prior existence of a MORE rich, MORE complex, MORE perfect being who created it all. I can't think of anything to say to this sort of "logic".

Karen and her hounds
creating art ~ creating a new life


sugarfree
Theist
Posts: 478
Joined: 2007-03-14
User is offlineOffline
meshblorg wrote:

meshblorg wrote:

If only you knew how good it feels to understand you and your delusion.

I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind but now I see...

Random Moderator wrote:
Moderator Edit: REMINDER! This is the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum for freethinkers only.
 


sugarfree
Theist
Posts: 478
Joined: 2007-03-14
User is offlineOffline
GreyhoundMama wrote:

GreyhoundMama wrote:

 

As far as I can tell, "I don't know" is the most reasonable answer. Certainly saying that the universe is too beautiful, too rich, too complex to have come about itself is absurd. You assume the prior existence of a MORE rich, MORE complex, MORE perfect being who created it all. I can't think of anything to say to this sort of "logic".

 

Random Moderator wrote:
Moderator Edit: REMINDER! This is the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum for freethinkers only.

But everyday I see evidence of things created by someone, but I never see evidence of something created out of nothing. So, I feel your "logic" goes against the easily observable laws of nature.


thingy
SuperfanGold Member
thingy's picture
Posts: 1022
Joined: 2007-02-07
User is offlineOffline
sugarfree wrote:   But

sugarfree wrote:
 

But everyday I see evidence of things created by someone, but I never see evidence of something created out of nothing. So, I feel your "logic" goes against the easily observable laws of nature.

That's rather unfortunate because universes get created all the time.  Ohh hey, there's a new one right now just above my left shoulder! 

Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
Censored and blacked out for internet access in ANZ!
AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/


aiia
Superfan
aiia's picture
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2006-09-12
User is offlineOffline
That’s a very disturbing

That’s a very disturbing video. I think many of those kids will be messed up for years to come. They’ve been turned into christian automatons and they no longer have a life of their own. Their childhood has been stolen.

sugarfree wrote:
meshblorg wrote:
If only you knew how good it feels to understand you and your delusion.
I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind but now I see...
You are still lost. And you do not see…

sugarfree wrote:
GreyhoundMama wrote:
As far as I can tell, "I don't know" is the most reasonable answer. Certainly saying that the universe is too beautiful, too rich, too complex to have come about itself is absurd. You assume the prior existence of a MORE rich, MORE complex, MORE perfect being who created it all. I can't think of anything to say to this sort of "logic".
But everyday I see evidence of things created by someone, but I never see evidence of something created out of nothing. So, I feel your "logic" goes against the easily observable laws of nature.

A painting is created, a car is created, and the computer you use was created; there’s no evidence the universe was created. And you are quite correct, something does not come out of nothing; there was always something. It merely changes form through the eons of time.

You FEEL logic? I think that’s your problem.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


magilum
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2007-03-07
User is offlineOffline
But everyday I see evidence

But everyday I see evidence of things created by someone, but I never see evidence of something created out of nothing.  So, I feel your “logic“ goes against the easily observable laws of nature.

The trouble with citing observable laws of nature is that the demand can also be turned toward the thing you think created everything. If the answer isn't a supportable explanation, you've only made a bigger logical hole.


magilum
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2007-03-07
User is offlineOffline
You FEEL logic? I think

You FEEL logic? I think that’s your problem.

The trouble is oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.


sugarfree
Theist
Posts: 478
Joined: 2007-03-14
User is offlineOffline
AiiA wrote:

AiiA wrote:
You are still lost. And you do not see…
If you are not seeking God with all your mind heart and soul, you will never find Him. Perhaps that is why you perceive he is so absent from this world.
AiiA wrote:
And you are quite correct, something does not come out of nothing; there was always something. It merely changes form through the eons of time.
So you can "know" this, but I cannot "know" there is a God. Sounds like a double standard to me.
AiiA wrote:
You FEEL logic? I think that’s your problem.
I used an "i feel" statement because it is less confrontational. Learned that in seventh grade.

Random Moderator wrote:
Moderator Edit: REMINDER! This is the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum for freethinkers only.
 


aiia
Superfan
aiia's picture
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2006-09-12
User is offlineOffline
sugarfree wrote: If you are

sugarfree wrote:
If you are not seeking God with all your mind heart and soul, you will never find Him.
What is god?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


BGH
BGH's picture
Posts: 2772
Joined: 2006-09-28
User is offlineOffline
AiiA wrote: sugarfree

AiiA wrote:
sugarfree wrote:
If you are not seeking God with all your mind heart and soul, you will never find Him.
What is god?

And what is a soul? 


rexlunae
rexlunae's picture
Posts: 378
Joined: 2007-01-07
User is offlineOffline
sugarfree wrote: If you are

sugarfree wrote:
If you are not seeking God with all your mind heart and soul, you will never find Him. Perhaps that is why you perceive he is so absent from this world.

How conveniently circular. 'You can't see all this evidence for god unless you believe in him first'.

It's far more likely that you're seeing the world the way you want to see it. Real evidence is objective, so that everyone can see it.

You never did say why 'I don't know' isn't an acceptable answer.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


sugarfree
Theist
Posts: 478
Joined: 2007-03-14
User is offlineOffline
rexlunae wrote:

rexlunae wrote:
How conveniently circular. 'You can't see all this evidence for god unless you believe in him first'.
Well, if you don't believe me, why don't you try it and see. But, fair warning, you have to let go of your ego.

Random Moderator wrote:
Moderator Edit: REMINDER! This is the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum for freethinkers only.
 


rexlunae
rexlunae's picture
Posts: 378
Joined: 2007-01-07
User is offlineOffline
sugarfree wrote: rexlunae

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:

How conveniently circular. 'You can't see all this evidence for god unless you believe in him first'.
Well, if you don't believe me, why don't you try it and see. But, fair warning, you have to let go of your ego.

I have, long ago. And guess what: It's not real.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


magilum
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2007-03-07
User is offlineOffline
If you are not seeking God

If you are not seeking God with all your mind heart and soul, you will never find Him. Perhaps that is why you perceive he is so absent from this world.
Yeah, you gotta believe to get proof that you don't need because you have faith.


Mordagar
RRS local affiliateSuperfan
Mordagar's picture
Posts: 128
Joined: 2006-02-22
User is offlineOffline
sugarfree

sugarfree wrote:
GreyhoundMama wrote:

 

As far as I can tell, "I don't know" is the most reasonable answer. Certainly saying that the universe is too beautiful, too rich, too complex to have come about itself is absurd. You assume the prior existence of a MORE rich, MORE complex, MORE perfect being who created it all. I can't think of anything to say to this sort of "logic".

 

But everyday I see evidence of things created by someone, but I never see evidence of something created out of nothing. So, I feel your "logic" goes against the easily observable laws of nature.

 

Even if the "evidence of design" point is conceded, it does nothing to further the claims of Christianity. At best it points to a Deistic God. 

"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously." [Albert Einstein, letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946]


sugarfree
Theist
Posts: 478
Joined: 2007-03-14
User is offlineOffline
rexlunae wrote:

rexlunae wrote:
I have, long ago. And guess what: It's not real.
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure there's nothing I can say to get you to try again.

Random Moderator wrote:
Moderator Edit: REMINDER! This is the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum for freethinkers only.
 


sugarfree
Theist
Posts: 478
Joined: 2007-03-14
User is offlineOffline
Mordagar wrote:

Mordagar wrote:
Even if the evidence of design point is conceded, it does nothing to further the claims of Christianity. At best it points to a Deistic God.
I'll grant that.

Random Moderator wrote:
Moderator Edit: REMINDER! This is the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum for freethinkers only.
 


jcgadfly
Superfan
Posts: 6791
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
sugarfree wrote: rexlunae

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
I have, long ago. And guess what: It's not real.
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure there's nothing I can say to get you to try again.

 You're probably right. After all, a hallmark of insanity is doing the same things repeatedly in the hopes of getting a different result.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


rexlunae
rexlunae's picture
Posts: 378
Joined: 2007-01-07
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote: sugarfree

jcgadfly wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
I have, long ago. And guess what: It's not real.
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure there's nothing I can say to get you to try again.

 You're probably right. After all, a hallmark of insanity is doing the same things repeatedly in the hopes of getting a different result.

Yes. I also realized that feelings are a poor way to determine reality, because they are easily prejudiced.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.