Is religion adaptive?

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Is religion adaptive?

Is religion adaptive?
Could there be such a thing as "God gene" ?


Clara Listensprechen
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Ummm, perhaps you're

Ummm, perhaps you're refering to a report about a genetic predisposition to a perception of having contact with God.  Inasmuch as perceptions and the way the brain works, I suppose that's possible, but I flat out reject the notion that any religion is a race.  I find the very concept of a God who selects one race over the others he's created as being Chosen People is, well, racist.

 

Similarly, I find the castes of Hinduism reprehensible for the same reason, as I do find the Parsee religion, and as I find the Episcopalian belief that royalty is of a divinely separate bloodline from the commoner.

 Religion-enforced racism/bloodlines are all aspects of religion that I find reprehensible.

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


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I don't think you

I don't think you understand my post. I'll clarify: Could religion be a functional product of natural selection?

Could there be a gene for a belief in god that has helped tribal people, christians, jews, etc. survive to reproduce?


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Highly unlikely.

Highly unlikely.


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I don't know if there's a

I don't know if there's a gene or not, but I have seen a study somewhere that pointed to religion as a survival benefit for a society in early development.

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Depends on the

Depends on the tribe--what's a relgion "survival benefit" for one tribe is necessarily not such a survivable thing for the tribe they're against.  You might as well say that human wolfpacks are a "survival benefit" to the pack in question.

 Tribalism  has certainly helped the survival of some wolfpacks, but not all.  It has certainly helped the survival of meerkats.  It's a similar benefit to humans if you fancy humans to be either wolves or meerkats.

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


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Clara Listensprechen

Clara Listensprechen wrote:

Depends on the tribe--what's a relgion "survival benefit" for one tribe is necessarily not such a survivable thing for the tribe they're against.

Can you point to a single ancient society that had no gods or supernatural beliefs whatsoever? I'm pretty sure you can't.

Clara Listensprechen wrote:

  You might as well say that human wolfpacks are a "survival benefit" to the pack in question.

What would be innaccurate about such a claim(other than the confusing human-wolfpack descriptive)?

Clara Listensprechen wrote:
Tribalism  has certainly helped the survival of some wolfpacks, but not all.

The only way tribalism isn't a benefit is if there is a negative consequence to tribalism. Which there is not except in specific circumstances. Those circumstances will generally wipe out the tribe, but leave others unaffected to continue using what has always been beneficial.

Clara Listensprechen wrote:
  It has certainly helped the survival of meerkats.  It's a similar benefit to humans if you fancy humans to be either wolves or meerkats.

Or simply acknowledge that we're as much an animal as any other.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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hello wrote: I don't think

hello wrote:
I don't think you understand my post. I'll clarify: Could religion be a functional product of natural selection?

Could there be a gene for a belief in god that has helped tribal people, christians, jews, etc. survive to reproduce?

Religion has helped people band together to kill off their competitors. I'm not sure if the propensity for religion is concentrated to particular groups so much as it may be memetic (ideas/culture being passed around).

If tribe A just wants to go about their business and live life while tribe B believes that tribe A is evil and needs to be killed off, well, tribe B may be more psyched up about the battle and ready to die in order to destroy tribe A. I think eventually, only tribe B will be around to tell everyone what happened.

-Triften 


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In the process of

In the process of institutionalizing tribalpackism, religion has also institutionalized racism. Insofar as mankind has behaved as predatory animals, tribalism has all the barbaric benefits to survival as enjoyed by any other predatory animal.

And yet mankind fancies itself erroneously as being better than any other animal. There are differences, to be sure, but mankind is still just as barbaric as any other animal, and as long as he regards the barbaric Bronze Age God of Abraham worthy of being worshipped, he will remain a barbaric Bronze Age animal himself.

We have to get beyond the Bronze Age--at this late date, we're overdue.

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


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I have never heard of a

I have never heard of a society which has not employed supernatural forces as part of the model for their reality. Is this some strangely arbitrary commonality?

"Is God in Our Genes"

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101041025-725072,00.html
(i think this was around the time the god gene was published.


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hello wrote:

hello wrote:

I have never heard of a society which has not employed supernatural forces as part of the model for their reality. Is this some strangely arbitrary commonality?

"Is God in Our Genes"

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101041025-725072,00.html
(i think this was around the time the god gene was published.

Dawkins presents the theory (in "The God Delusion" ) that a combination of our tendency to anthropomorphize things combined with ignorance, led people to posit the existence of gods.

When we explain things, especially those we may not fully understand, ascribing them intent and emotions is very easy. "That bug hates me. The wind wanted to knock over the sign. The rain didn't feel like falling here." You may hear people saying "The computer decided to break." or "My car is in a good mood today." (Mostly in a joking manner from what I've experienced.)

So, we started doing this with natural forces and found it easier to explain things by placing supernatural forces behind them. The gods of wind and rain, the god of the sun, the god of the moon, etc.

As we learn more about the way things work, the need to ascribe intent diminishes.

-Triften


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I would say there is an

I would say there is an evolution of religion, but I wouldn't say there is something inside humans that make them believe.


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triften wrote: hello

triften wrote:
hello wrote:

I have never heard of a society which has not employed supernatural forces as part of the model for their reality. Is this some strangely arbitrary commonality?

"Is God in Our Genes"

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101041025-725072,00.html
(i think this was around the time the god gene was published.

Dawkins presents the theory (in "The God Delusion" ) that a combination of our tendency to anthropomorphize things combined with ignorance, led people to posit the existence of gods.

When we explain things, especially those we may not fully understand, ascribing them intent and emotions is very easy. "That bug hates me. The wind wanted to knock over the sign. The rain didn't feel like falling here." You may hear people saying "The computer decided to break." or "My car is in a good mood today." (Mostly in a joking manner from what I've experienced.)

So, we started doing this with natural forces and found it easier to explain things by placing supernatural forces behind them. The gods of wind and rain, the god of the sun, the god of the moon, etc.

As we learn more about the way things work, the need to ascribe intent diminishes.

-Triften

why is there a need to ascribe intent?
is this  trait adaptive?


triften
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hello wrote: why is there

hello wrote:

why is there a need to ascribe intent?
is this trait adaptive?

The theory is that it was faster. You didn't need to know about the brain chemistry of the tiger, just that it wants to eat you. You needn't worry about how magma rises up through the crust, just know that the volcano occasionally gets angry. It was the most efficient thing at the time.

-Triften 


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Voiderest wrote: I would

Voiderest wrote:
I would say there is an evolution of religion, but I wouldn't say there is something inside humans that make them believe.

I was beginning to think I was the lone person here, of that opinion.  I second that wholeheartedly.

Religion has become adaptive, but not genetically, because it is in the interest of its primary beneficiaries (rulers, takers of assets & properties & services) to ensure religion's viability in any given era.

Just comparing the Old Testament to the New Testament is a case in point of religion's adaptive efforts.  In the old, God generally talked directly to prophets who relayed pontifications to the masses, and the masses believed this to be the case.  That wasn't happening in the New Testament.

One line in the Gospel of John sums up what the New Testament testifies to: Jesus Is The One Way To The Father...otherwise said, God's done talking to humans now, and Junior is hereby appointed to be his official screening secretary.  Talk to Jesus or talk to the hand. 

 But the Old Testament is an adaptation of a mixture of old Assyrian and Babylonian mythologies preceeding it; much of it is a blatant plagiarism of the Epic of Gilgamesh, and even the Epic of Gilgamesh wasn't original either--it, too, was an act of plagiarism.

And so it goes.  Humanity clearly has periodically set limits on what it'll believe of its deities, even of Abraham's own God.  Jesus is on record himself as saying to the Pharasees (who challenged him on the matter of divorce) that Moses rescinded the Adultery commandment because, Jesus said, they had hard hearts.

So there you have it, friends n neighbors--hard hearts trump God's Commandments successfully.

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


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would you say the evolution

would you say the evolution of a belief in reason in humans is adaptive?

 

 

 


is it more or less adaptive than the evolution of a belief in a deity? can this question be evaluated since most people are able to survive to reproduce anyways? (maybe evolutionary psychologists have done studies on artificial selection and mate choice?)

 


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It's adaptive by human

It's adaptive by human engineering, not by any kind of divine design--just like science is adaptive to new information, just like military strategies are adaptive to the adaptations a foe might make in  its strife (war strategies are ALWAYS adapting, and studied as a science), etc., as in being ever-refined.

There's still nothing that's either divine or genetic about it. 

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


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Check this out, Daniel C.

Check this out, Daniel C. Dennet talks about his ideas on the subject. I'm not sure if his book he talks about in it is on the same topic, but I expect he'll put something out soon enough.


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Clara Listensprechen

Clara Listensprechen wrote:

It's adaptive by human engineering, not by any kind of divine design--just like science is adaptive to new information, just like military strategies are adaptive to the adaptations a foe might make in its strife (war strategies are ALWAYS adapting, and studied as a science), etc., as in being ever-refined.

There's still nothing that's either divine or genetic about it.



What do you mean by human engineering? Is human engineering adaptive?

what is something that is neither divine nor genetic?


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hello wrote: What do you

hello wrote:
What do you mean by human engineering? Is human engineering adaptive?

what is something that is neither divine nor genetic?

I think he is talking about something like domestication. Although there is still a natural selection and mutation process when you deal with ideas.


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hello wrote:

hello wrote:
Clara Listensprechen wrote:

It's adaptive by human engineering, not by any kind of divine design--just like science is adaptive to new information, just like military strategies are adaptive to the adaptations a foe might make in its strife (war strategies are ALWAYS adapting, and studied as a science), etc., as in being ever-refined.

There's still nothing that's either divine or genetic about it.



What do you mean by human engineering? Is human engineering adaptive?

Sure. If some process or methodology doesn't work in the current environment or is supplanted by something more efficient, people stop doing it.

Thatched roofs. They require lots of maintainence (vs. asphalt shingles) and specialized skills to keep in good repair so they generally aren't used.

Rope bridges: We consider the safety of a good concrete and steel bridge to make up for the increased cost and, I believe, they also require less maintainence.

There are some great books on how failure shapes invention and design. I read one about the life of paperclips and silverware (amongst other things). The story of silverware mimics life in the last 100 million years with an explosion of specialized forks, knives, and spoons (Cretaceous), then a die off of most of them (who needs a "tomato fork"?.)

-Triften

 


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hello wrote: Clara

hello wrote:
Clara Listensprechen wrote:

It's adaptive by human engineering, not by any kind of divine design--just like science is adaptive to new information, just like military strategies are adaptive to the adaptations a foe might make in its strife (war strategies are ALWAYS adapting, and studied as a science), etc., as in being ever-refined.

There's still nothing that's either divine or genetic about it.



What do you mean by human engineering? Is human engineering adaptive?

what is something that is neither divine nor genetic?


clara: adaptive has a specific definition in the evolutionary context, one which i'm interested in understanding more deeply myself. how are you defining adaptive?


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There was a study done that

There was a study done that suggested that a gene called VMAT2 predisposes individuals to religiosity; however, the study was never academically published and the finding was based on a slight variation in the results. Brain scans preformed on monks while meditating show that the brain experiences changes in area that deal with sensory information, which certainly suggests some type of genetic factor contributing to spiritual experiences. I think that religion certainly was, and possibly still is adaptive. The first wide spread religious document was The Epic of Gilgamesh, and the main theme of the story was of a man's fear of death and search for immortality. This suggests that religion may have originally been selected for as to assuage people's fear of death. A professor of mine believes that religion was selected for to promote group cooperation; I disagree, but we both believe that it was selected for and is not just an evolutionary byproduct. Another fascinating topic related to this is memetics. I will not go into the details, but I would suggest you read about it elsewhere.


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..

Religion is adaptive. A common Christian of today would be considered a heretic a couple of centuries ago. But it isn't adaptive enough to survive the upcoming changes.
There's a prophecy, that the current pope (the second one after Polish pope) is the last of them. Well, I know we officially don't believe in prophecies, but this one would be nice to come true. I imagine it like Christ shows up in TV and says..."The Vatican will be closed next thursday due to a violation of our policies and misinterpretation of the provided guidelines known as The Book, causing a serious popularity loss among our clients. The infrastructure of the company will be sold for a symbolic price to OSN."

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.