Numbering Theist Arguments. :D

Iruka Naminori
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Numbering Theist Arguments. :D

In the webcam chatroom, we decided it would be really cool if we could say something like, "He's pulling a number 12!" when a theist started a tired, old argument we've all heard a Brazilian times (nods to old Bush joke).

This is what we've come up with so far:

1. Pascal's Wager

2. Watchmaker argument

3. "Unmoved Mover" argument

 

Of course, this is subject to change. I'd like to list the arguments in order of most to least common...or perhaps most to least annoying? Laughing out loud

In the RRS stickam room, someone posted a website that listed the top theistic arguments, but I didn't click on it in time. I just did a quick Google, but it didn't pop up...probably didn't enter the right search parameters.

Anyway, it would be great to form a comprehensive list with the proper titles. You've heard them a Brazilian® times, now help me form the list. Smiling

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4. You can't prove God

4. You can't prove God doesn't exist.

5. You can't see love/the wind/your brain/whatever

6. various irrational arguments against evolution.

7. Using the Bible to prove itself.

8. "I know it in my heart."

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4. You can't prove God

Damn double posts and weird errors!


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9. No true scotsman 10.

9. No true scotsman

10. ...was an atheist

11. not A, therefore B

12. You have faith too!

13. Soft atheist = Agnostic, and only agnostic. 

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Here's my idea. We make a

Here's my idea.

Like Iruka Naminori said, we make a list of the clearly refuted arguments, and give their refutations. Have a link to it in some FAQ, name it "Theists, don't use these arguments because they suck." or something like that. Then all we'd have to do is reference them to this FAQ.

But moreover, we should have a specific forum for these arguments. If a theist wants to use these bad arguments, they have to post them there. That way us newbies can hone our debunking skills, and the veterans can focus on the theist who know better.

I guess the only problem is, basically all arguments could be put in this FAQ. So we'd have to put a stop somewhere.


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MrRage wrote:

MrRage wrote:
Here's my idea. Like Iruka Naminori said, we make a list of the clearly refuted arguments, and give their refutations. Have a link to it in some FAQ, name it "Theists, don't use these arguments because they suck." or something like that. Then all we'd have to do is reference them to this FAQ. But moreover, we should have a specific forum for these arguments. If a theist wants to use these bad arguments, they have to post them there. That way us newbies can hone our debunking skills, and the veterans can focus on the theist who know better. I guess the only problem is, basically all arguments could be put in this FAQ. So we'd have to put a stop somewhere.

I proposed a similar idea to Sapient, only instead of a huge FAQ, I proposed that each stupid theistic argument have its own rebuttal page. We could have an FAQ page with the list (1 through ?) linking to each rebuttal. I would be willing to compile and edit the rebuttals as I find the time.

It would also be kewl to have someone post as "The Atheist AutoBot" with a graphic and link: "Error! Error! You have proposed fallacious theistic argument number six. Go to this link. Go directly to this link. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200." The link would lead to the rebuttal of number six...whatever we decide number six to be. Smiling

I'd make the graphic, too. *shrug*

This would save a lot of time in the long run.

Of course, I would need help compiling the arguments against the top fallacious theistic arguments. I'm sure you guys could point me to pertinent posts. I'd like one of the Rational V.I.P.s to peruse my rebuttals before I call them "finished."

If anyone has a better idea or something to add, that's great, but that's my idea.

You likey?  Brian Sapient concur-ry? If so, then me do-y.  

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14 = Evolution is only a

14 = Evolution is only a theory

15 = evolution has been proven to be false

16 = Laura Ingram 


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17. Atheists hate god.

17. Atheists hate god.


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18) Scientists don't

18) Scientists don't know. Therefore my god did it.

19) Mr.... said this is true. Therefore it's true.

20) I don't understand evolution. Therefore it's not true.

21) Mixing up The Big Bang Theory and Evolution.

 

 I do really like the idea of creating an FAQ with common theist arguments.  I know over at atheistforums.com someone had started setting up a virtual debater.  I think that might be something to look into.

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22) Any gross

22) Any gross mis-representation of evolution (Dogs can become cats (Yes, I've seen this), etc)


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You just pulled a #23

Atheist denying any argument or evidence about God or anti-evolution without the slightest clue of either.

 

 

That's a #23 in bizarro world

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


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MrRage wrote: Here's my

MrRage wrote:
Here's my idea. Like Iruka Naminori said, we make a list of the clearly refuted arguments, and give their refutations. Have a link to it in some FAQ, name it "Theists, don't use these arguments because they suck." or something like that. Then all we'd have to do is reference them to this FAQ. But moreover, we should have a specific forum for these arguments. If a theist wants to use these bad arguments, they have to post them there. That way us newbies can hone our debunking skills, and the veterans can focus on the theist who know better. I guess the only problem is, basically all arguments could be put in this FAQ. So we'd have to put a stop somewhere.

 

Just because you don't like an argument doesn't make it invalid.

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


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Susan wrote: 17. Atheists

Susan wrote:
17. Atheists hate god.

 

Ironically, many atheist speak hatefully about God so what does that tell you?

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


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Eric Ferguson wrote: 14 =

Eric Ferguson wrote:

14 = Evolution is only a theory

15 = evolution has been proven to be false

16 = Laura Ingram 

 

When was evolution proven to be true?

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Quote: In the webcam

Quote:
In the webcam chatroom, we decided it would be really cool if we could say something like, "He's pulling a number 12!" when a theist started a tired, old argument we've all heard a Brazilian times (nods to old Bush joke).

This is just a list of arguments from theists that we hear all the time, not the arguments themselves.

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Bodhitharta wrote: When

Bodhitharta wrote:

When was evolution proven to be true?

 

It hasn't been "proven", but there is overwhelming scientific evidence to support it, in contast to the ZERO scientific evidence that a magical man in the clouds snapped his fingers and made everything appear. In any event that is ENTIRELY irrelevant to the fact that claiming that evolution has "been proven false" is not just a bad argument but an OUTRIGHT LIE.


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Symok wrote: Bodhitharta

Symok wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:

When was evolution proven to be true?

 

It hasn't been "proven", but there is overwhelming scientific evidence to support it, in contast to the ZERO scientific evidence that a magical man in the clouds snapped his fingers and made everything appear. In any event that is ENTIRELY irrelevant to the fact that claiming that evolution has "been proven false" is not just a bad argument but an OUTRIGHT LIE.

 

Well I'm glad that you admit that it has not been "proven" true. Isn't it also true that it cannot be proven true by the scientific method. The whole entire creation is scientific evidence of God. The problem with atheist is not just them not believing in God, but also not believing in any evidence presented about God.

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


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Number whatever) Claiming,

Number whatever) Claiming, "Something can't come from nothing!"

 

Note: I think we might need to cover the big bang and evolution in several steps. Sticking out tongue

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Bodhitharta wrote:

Bodhitharta wrote:
The whole entire creation is scientific evidence of God.

 

*Laughs*


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Symok wrote: Bodhitharta

Symok wrote:

Bodhitharta wrote:
The whole entire creation is scientific evidence of God.

 

*Laughs*

I think he was going for a Number 2, don't you? Smiling

I was thinking about calling the list "Stupid Theist Tricks"...is that too obnoxious?  Probably yes.  

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Eric Ferguson wrote: 14 =

Eric Ferguson wrote:

14 = Evolution is only a theory

15 = evolution has been proven to be false

16 = Laura Ingram

Actually, I think Laura Ingraham is a good argument for the non-existence of god. Smiling 

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Bod's here to blame the victim

Bodhitharta wrote:

Atheist denying any argument or evidence about God or anti-evolution without the slightest clue of either.

 

 

That's a #23 in bizarro world

 

Hello Bod, So nice to see after you RAN AWAY from the RD fourms.

And got banned from the IG fourms, for spamming.

Oh, I guess you didn't read the title of the thread, It's a list of silly things that lots of theists say.

*Looks at the post*

You know what, this is true, a lot of theists including you say this. And it is fact a silly thing. You guys think you have evidence, but then we show it as it is, then you guys (IE mostly you) run to your corner sing a linkin park song, then claim we reject the evidence.

Of course this brings me to another thing on this list.

# (I don't know the number) ) Theists says that atheist was never an theist in the first place.

 

Face it Bod, Most of us have believed in god at one point or another, we've seen the evidence. Get over it.

 

PS here's a razer, enjoy 

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Quote: Ironically, many

Quote:
Ironically, many atheist speak hatefully about God so what does that tell you?

Uhh.. how about, they are angry at the fact that they where brain washed ito believeing something?

Quote:
When was evolution proven to be true?
 

 You know bod, this was answered so many times, back on the other aformentioned fourms. And yet you ignored the answers, amazing. You whine at us for supposedly "Ignoring the evidence", but you hypocritically dodge it all.

Ps, Why can't evolution and your god coexist? I feel I know the answer to this, but humor me. 

Quote:
The whole entire creation is scientific evidence of God.
 

So if humans were never made, then god wouldn't have existed too? 

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What number are we up

What number are we up to?

24? Atheists have no morals....or that people cannot live ethical lives without God forcing them to.

 

 


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25. Some christian person

25. Some christian person did something that was beneficial to the world therefore Christianity is good.

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Number x+1 where x is

Number x+1 where x is whatever number before my post:

Atheists are just angry at God because something bad happened.

x+2:

Atheists are simply refusing to acknowledge/submit to a higher power, because blah blah.


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26. "Yours in Christ,

26. "Yours in Christ, eternal wisdom" is an oxymoron.


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MarthaSplatterhead

MarthaSplatterhead wrote:
26. "Yours in Christ, eternal wisdom" is an oxymoron.

ROTF

Good one. Smiling

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Gauche wrote: 25. Some

Gauche wrote:
25. Some christian person did something that was beneficial to the world therefore Christianity is good.

On a slightly different vein: X (famous smart person) is/was a Christian; therefore, Christianity is rational.  

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Bodhitharta wrote:

Bodhitharta wrote:
Eric Ferguson wrote:

14 = Evolution is only a theory

15 = evolution has been proven to be false

16 = Laura Ingram

 

When was evolution proven to be true?

When a monk did experiments on the genetics of peas, that's when. Genetics is the mechanism by which evolution works; evolution is natural selection of genetic mixing, while agricultural hybridization is unnatural selection of those self-same mechanisms.

 

There exists NOTHING on your food plate that God created. Mankind created that which you eat, utilizing evolution's natural mechanisms.

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


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27. The Word of God is

27. The Word of God is required to be "rightly divided" and you're as bad as fundamentalists when you read The Bible literally.

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Bodhitharta wrote: MrRage

Bodhitharta wrote:

MrRage wrote:
Here's my idea. Like Iruka Naminori said, we make a list of the clearly refuted arguments, and give their refutations. Have a link to it in some FAQ, name it "Theists, don't use these arguments because they suck." or something like that. Then all we'd have to do is reference them to this FAQ. But moreover, we should have a specific forum for these arguments. If a theist wants to use these bad arguments, they have to post them there. That way us newbies can hone our debunking skills, and the veterans can focus on the theist who know better. I guess the only problem is, basically all arguments could be put in this FAQ. So we'd have to put a stop somewhere.

 

Just because you don't like an argument doesn't make it invalid.

This is not a list of arguments we don't like, it is a list of invalid arguments! e.g. Pascal's wager.


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The list thus far. 1.

The list thus far.

1. Pascal's Wager

2. Watchmaker argument

3. "Unmoved Mover" argument

4. You can't prove God doesn't exist.

5. You can't see love/the wind/your brain/whatever

6. various irrational arguments against evolution.

7. Using the Bible to prove itself.

8. "I know it in my heart."

9. No true scotsman

10. ...was an atheist

11. not A, therefore B

12. You have faith too!

13. Soft atheist = Agnostic, and only agnostic.

14. Evolution is only a theory

15. evolution has been proven to be false

16. Laura Ingram

17. Atheists hate god.

18. Scientists don't know. Therefore my god did it.

19. Mr.... said this is true. Therefore it's true.

20. I don't understand evolution. Therefore it's not true.

21. Mixing up The Big Bang Theory and Evolution.

22. Any gross mis-representation of evolution (Dogs can become cats (Yes, I've seen this), etc)

23. Claims that Atheists are denying any argument or evidence about God or creationism , when in fact the claims have been adressed and pointed out as not evidence.

24. Atheists have no morals....or that people cannot live ethical lives without God forcing them to.

25. Some christian person did something that was beneficial to the world therefore Christianity is good.

26. Atheists are just angry at God because something bad happened.

27. Atheists are simply refusing to acknowledge/submit to a higher power, because blah blah.

28. "Yours in Christ, eternal wisdom" is an oxymoron.

29. The Word of God is required to be "rightly divided" and you're as bad as fundamentalists when you read The Bible literally.

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28. God said it; I believe

30. God said it; I believe it; that settles it.


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Ophios wrote: The list

Ophios wrote:

The list thus far.

1. Pascal's Wager

2. Watchmaker argument

3. "Unmoved Mover" argument

4. You can't prove God doesn't exist.

-snip- 

Thank you, Ophios.  This helps.

I think there needs to be a separate FAQ (or sub-FAQ, if you will) that deals with the Blasphemy Challenge.  I just saw someone claim (for the 12,876th time [I've been counting...j/k]) that denying something means you believe in it.  That would be the poster known as "rr are religious bigots"...speaking of whom, this thread is pretty funny: http://tinyurl.com/3d3rbn

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Does anyone have any

Does anyone have any objections to "Pascal's Wager" being the number 1 stupid theist trick (probably won't call it that)?  If not, I'll start gearing up my mind for the first entry in the FAQ.

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Go Go Go.  Pascal has GOT

Go Go Go.  Pascal has GOT to be number one.  Which is funny because it's also the most easily refuted.

 

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Yep. Maybe you could try and

Yep. Maybe you could try and number them (approximately) in the order we tend to encounter them...


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Iruka Naminori wrote:

Iruka Naminori wrote:
that denying something means you believe in it.

Make that 30 then, I've heard it outside of the blasphemy challenge.

 

I'd like to add...

31. You're aren't a atheist unless you say you reject all gods.

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32. "The burden of proof is

32. "The burden of proof is on he who denies."


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33. Blaming atheism for

33. Blaming atheism for atrocities committed by communist countries because the leaders happened to be atheist (or even worse, Hitler who clearly was NOT an atheist.)

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MattShizzle wrote: 33.

MattShizzle wrote:
33. Blaming atheism for atrocities committed by communist countries because the leaders happened to be atheist (or even worse, Hitler who clearly was NOT an atheist.)

 Good one.  Thanks. Smiling

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Iruka Naminori wrote: Does

Iruka Naminori wrote:
Does anyone have any objections to "Pascal's Wager" being the number 1 stupid theist trick (probably won't call it that)? If not, I'll start gearing up my mind for the first entry in the FAQ.

Oh absolutely. Pascal's Wager should be number 1.

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34. Atheists worship the

34. Atheists worship the devil.


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Ophios wrote: Iruka

Ophios wrote:

Iruka Naminori wrote:
that denying something means you believe in it.

Make that 30 then, I've heard it outside of the blasphemy challenge.

 

I'd like to add...

31. You're aren't a atheist unless you say you reject all gods.

true, but you can also be an atheist and believe in santa clause, unicorns,  green cheese moons etc. the rational part of being an atheist doesn't come into play unless the atheist is evaluating theistic arguments for their soundness.  to an ultimately rational "strong" atheist, you must engage in rationally rejecting all gods. 


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Iruka Naminori wrote: Does

Iruka Naminori wrote:
Does anyone have any objections to "Pascal's Wager" being the number 1 stupid theist trick (probably won't call it that)? If not, I'll start gearing up my mind for the first entry in the FAQ.

Ironically it doesn't even go about proving god even if you agree it is right. Maybe that makes it the most fitting number one.

I have been working one a list where I basically go thru this list, but I've gotten kind of lazy about it...  Also it is just me trying to have something to work off of. I was also trying to make sure I put it in the arguments true/popular form, put them into catagories, and find examples of them being used.

I was also going to have it be a part of a YouTube thing, but that didn't take off either.


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I'm bringing this one up

I'm bringing this one up because I've been seeing it a lot lately. It doesn't belong on the list, because it isn't actually a theist argument, but it is typical of theist thinking:

"It's cold out today. Therefore global warming isn't true."

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I think we missed one of

I think we missed one of Ray Comfort's favorites.

 

 35) There is no such thing as an atheist because you have to have all knowledge to make such a claim.

 or in other words, assuming all atheists are strong atheists.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan


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hello wrote: true, but you

hello wrote:
true, but you can also be an atheist and believe in santa clause, unicorns, green cheese moons etc. the rational part of being an atheist doesn't come into play unless the atheist is evaluating theistic arguments for their soundness. to an ultimately rational "strong" atheist, you must engage in rationally rejecting all gods.

Yes, but what I put down was a form of "Did you SAY you reject allah? no. Then your are not an atheist, becuase you didn't SAY."

But then now that I think about it, it's a form of a no true scotsman fallacy. 

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36. Life developing was so

36. Life developing was so unlikely to happen, it must have been done by God.

 


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I just ran across these.

I just ran across these. Forgive me if they are already covered in some form already.

37. Atheism is a religion because you need to have faith that God does not exist.

38. Religion is sacred and should not be ridiculed or disrespected.