THE GREAT FLOOD

JesusLovesYou
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THE GREAT FLOOD

EVIDENCE TODAY FOR A FLOOD
" Nearly all the great mountain areas of the world have been found to have marine fossils near their summits. There is no conclusion possible otehr than that the mountains were once under water and have all been uplifted, essentially simutaneously, which accords well with the biblical flood.
Fossilization requires a sudden burial. Coal seams, oil feilds and natural gas deposits are specific examples of fossil fuels.
Most of the rocks on the earth's surface are sedimentary rocks that require heavy rain for erosion, transportation and deposition of sediment.
Anthropologists have collected over two hundred myths and legends of the flood from civilizations all over the world. Since all humans are decencents of Noah, one would expect to find some stories of the flood in ancient records. Such is the case. These flood legends cinsistantly show that a worldwide flood destroyed both man and animals, a vessel of safety was provided and only a few people survived the flood."

CAPABILITIES OF THE ARK
The Dimensions of the ark given in Genesis are in cubits, which were at that time 1.5 feet. The dimensions were 300x50x30. Which if you convert to feet its 1,518,750ft^3. The Bible says that Noah took 2 of every kind of unclean animal, and 7 of every kind of clean animal (animals used for food and sacrifice). That means 2 dogs, 2 cats, etc. NOT 2 great danes, 2 cocker spaniels...... If you do the math excluding aquatic animals (because they were not in the ark) the number is 17,500 kinds of animals, or basically 50,000 animals total. Now the logical thing to do is take the youngins of the animals because the older animals had a better chance of dying off. So with that only 36.5% of the ark was filled, so even if Noah took all the older animals which were bigger it would probably only raise the cosumed space 20-25% still leaving plenty of room for food and 8 humans. Keep in mind the ark was designed to FLOAT!!!!! NOT SAIL!!!!!. "It was designed to float and not capsize under the impact of great waves and winds. Mathematical and buoyancy calculations show that until the ark would have been turned vertically, the buoyant force would produce a righting couple that would act to restore the vessel to its upright position. As a matter of fact, Commander Lee touchberry of the U.S. Navy took the ark's dimensions and put them into the Navy's computerized programs. Calculations show that the dimensions of the ark were a perfect match with the Navy's ideal ship dimension ratio." Another interesting this is that the "Scripps institue of Oceanography as La Jolla, California tested a scale model of the ark in a large wave tank during the filming of the movie "In Search of Noah's Ark". By mechanical means, large waves were produced in the tank to test the capability of the ark in simulated waves greater than any ever experienced in the ocean. It was found that the ark was impossible to capsize."

SOURCES (CUZ I KNOW YALL LIKE SOURCES)
PAVLU, 57
MORRIS, "BIBLICAL BASIS", 259, 291-295
PAUL S. TAYLOR, "THE ILLUSTRATED ORIGENS ANSWER BOOK", EDEN PRODUCTIONS, P.O. BOX 41644, MESA, AZ, 1990, 112-113
JOHN RAJXA, "FLOOD ACCOUNTS AROUND THE WORLD", SCIENCE, SCRIPTURE AND SALVATION BROADCAST NO. 170, INSTITUTE FOR CREATION RESEARCH, EL CAJON, CA, AUGUST 12 1989
ARTHUR HODGES III, "DIMENSIONS OF NOAH'S ARK", E-MAIL CORRESPONDENCE, NOVEMBER 7, 1997
ARLO MOEHLENPAH, "CREATION VS. EVOLUTION-SCIENTIFIC AND RELIGIOUS CONSIDERATIONS" PGS. 23-27

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Insidium Profundis
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If this hypothesis was true,

If this hypothesis was true, every species we observe today would have experienced a tremendous population bottleneck at the time of the flood. Modern population genetics suggests that this is definitely not the case.

What about the plants? Surely, all the submerged land plants would have been killed off. Why are there still land plants today, especially with large gene pools?

The oldest tree is 4.8K years old. How do you explain that?

Also, how did the marsupials get to Australia and New Zealand?

What did the carnivores that Noah brought on board eat? What about the herbivores? What about viruses and bacteria that we find today? What about parasitic species that require hosts to survive? What about dinosaurs?

Also, a large amount of room is necessary to properly house a single animal (take a look at any zoo). How did you extrapolate that there would be enough room (I'd like to see the actual calculations)?

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JesusLovesYou
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Insidium Profundis wrote:If

Insidium Profundis wrote:
If this hypothesis was true, every species we observe today would have experienced a tremendous population bottleneck at the time of the flood. Modern population genetics suggests that this is definitely not the case.

What about the plants? Surely, all the submerged land plants would have been killed off. Why are there still land plants today, especially with large gene pools?

The oldest tree is 4.8K years old. How do you explain that?

Also, how did the marsupials get to Australia and New Zealand?

What did the carnivores that Noah brought on board eat? What about the herbivores? What about viruses and bacteria that we find today? What about parasitic species that require hosts to survive? What about dinosaurs?

Also, a large amount of room is necessary to properly house a single animal (take a look at any zoo). How did you extrapolate that there would be enough room (I'd like to see the actual calculations)?

How do explain the oldest tree? well the flood was supposed to have happened APPROXIMATELY 4500 years ago. So the oldest tree would APPROXIMATELY fit in that area.

Plants? If you read, up until after the flood, the only thing anybody humans and animals alike ate, was vegetation. Couldn't have Noah took food that was not eaten, or extra food that he had taken on the ark and PLANTED IT? (btw the 5 extra that were taken for food and sacrifice of the clean animals was a foreshadow of what was to come)

I already answered the carnivore question, and don't you think Noah BROUGHT FOOD? Bacteria and Parasite? if you READ and apply SCIENCE up until the flood took place the earth was a perfect, disease free, environment (ex. vapor canopy, etc.) You don't think noah took Dinos? He didnt have to take the biggest ones, two of each KIND. There are rumors of dinos still existant today, hence the congo legend. What were they called before the 1800s? where do you think the DRAGON legends come from. look at all the dragon legends and compare the descriptions of the dragons to dinos such as T-rex and tricerotops etc.

again, the room? NOAH DID NOT HAVE TO TAKE THE LARGEST ANIMALS? IT WOULD BE ONLY LOGICAL TO TAKE THE SMALLEST/YOUNGEST ANIMALS

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:EVIDENCE

JesusLovesYou wrote:
EVIDENCE TODAY FOR A FLOOD
" Nearly all the great mountain areas of the world have been found to have marine fossils near their summits. There is no conclusion possible otehr than that the mountains were once under water and have all been uplifted, essentially simutaneously, which accords well with the biblical flood.

Simultaneously? You mean that all of a sudden the mountains just flew up into place? You are familiar with the theory of how tectonic plates have moved very slowly over billions of years, right? I didn't ask if you accepted it, but you are familiar that geologists have this theory, at least? Perhaps you should do some more reading about geology.

And how does this accord with the flood? What would this have to do with a flood at all?

I'm amazed that people take this stuff seriously.

Shaun

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You have not addressed the

You have not addressed the majority of my post.


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HA! ARLO MOEHLENPAH,

HA!

ARLO MOEHLENPAH, "CREATION VS. EVOLUTION-SCIENTIFIC AND RELIGIOUS CONSIDERATIONS" PGS. 23-27

I actually have this book at home, a preacher stopped into work to give it to me after finding out that I talked evolution with one of his "youth" (the guy is older than I am...)

Indeed, i'm not expert, but fossils would be found at higher altitudes if the original rock layer were moved...say...I dunno...upward?


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Please note, I am do not

Please note, I am do not what to get anywhere near an old earth versus young earth debate...

Insidium Profundis wrote:

What about the plants? Surely, all the submerged land plants would have been killed off. Why are there still land plants today, especially with large gene pools?

Has anyone here read "Guns, Germs, and Steel" (Jared Diamond)? I find it to be the best pre-history book I have ever read.


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So God killed every other

So God killed every other man, woman, child, puppy, kitten, deer, goat, every other living animal on the face of the Earth? Beyond the lunacy that then every animal migrated out of Noahs ark and repopulated the planet everywhere from pole to pole and continent to continent in 6000 years, there is also the disturbing fact that you worship a God who would commit such an atrocity. In your interpretation of Noah's flood how many little girls under the age of 5 do you think were drowned? If you take even 1 second to rationalize the killing of innocent children to the whims of God's will I feel sorry for you.

Mark


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Mark Davis, are you from the

Mark Davis, are you from the website sexandsubmission? There is a porn star there with the same name.

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And a follow up question,

And a follow up question, after you've finished replying to all the others: If the Flood was supposed to rid the world of evil, why didn't it work? After all, it's a basic tenet of Christianity that there is evil in the world. Did God screw up? This is a very serious question, you know. Is God totally incompetent? And, more disturbingly, did God know in advance that the Flood wouldn't cleanse the world of evil? He is omniscient, supposedly. It seems to me that the only conclusion we can draw is that God killed a lot of people for no reason whatsoever. But I'm sure you've got some carefully crafted response. Maybe the evil that God wiped out in the flood was some sort of super evil that makes modern evil look charitable by comparision!

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:EVIDENCE

JesusLovesYou wrote:
EVIDENCE TODAY FOR A FLOOD
" Nearly all the great mountain areas of the world have been found to have marine fossils near their summits. There is no conclusion possible otehr than that the mountains were once under water and have all been uplifted, essentially simutaneously, which accords well with the biblical flood.

It's actually impossible since there isn't enough water on the entire earth, including the atmosphere, to cover the planet to that depth. The real explanation, as you know full well, is that mountains are pushed up through tectonic pressure.

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Fossilization requires a sudden burial. Coal seams, oil feilds and natural gas deposits are specific examples of fossil fuels.

Fossils are bones that became rock. Oil comes from organic remains that did NOT become rock. The only connection between fossils and oil is the original source (living things) and the term "fossil fuels" which refers to that source.

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Most of the rocks on the earth's surface are sedimentary rocks that require heavy rain for erosion, transportation and deposition of sediment.

Or regular amounts of rain over billions of years. BTW it is completely impossible that the necessary amount of rain could have fallen in 40 days.

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Anthropologists have collected over two hundred myths and legends of the flood from civilizations all over the world. Since all humans are decencents of Noah, one would expect to find some stories of the flood in ancient records. Such is the case. These flood legends cinsistantly show that a worldwide flood destroyed both man and animals, a vessel of safety was provided and only a few people survived the flood."

Well done. You have proven that people talk and move around. Please keep me updated on your research into whether or not people eat and wear clothes.

JesusLovesYou wrote:

CAPABILITIES OF THE ARK
The Dimensions of the ark given in Genesis are in cubits, which were at that time 1.5 feet. The dimensions were 300x50x30. Which if you convert to feet its 1,518,750ft^3. The Bible says that Noah took 2 of every kind of unclean animal, and 7 of every kind of clean animal (animals used for food and sacrifice). That means 2 dogs, 2 cats, etc. NOT 2 great danes, 2 cocker spaniels...... If you do the math excluding aquatic animals (because they were not in the ark) the number is 17,500 kinds of animals, or basically 50,000 animals total.

Representing something like .001% of the number of species we have counted on Earth today. Please discuss, without reference to the heresey known as evolution, how 17K species became over a million species inside of 4,500 years.

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Now the logical thing to do is take the youngins of the animals because the older animals had a better chance of dying off. So with that only 36.5% of the ark was filled, so even if Noah took all the older animals which were bigger it would probably only raise the cosumed space 20-25% still leaving plenty of room for food and 8 humans.

If you want to believe that Noah and his family could keep 50K animals alive inside a boat for 40 days, nothing I say can help you. Only medication can do that now.

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Keep in mind the ark was designed to FLOAT!!!!! NOT SAIL!!!!!. "It was designed to float and not capsize under the impact of great waves and winds. Mathematical and buoyancy calculations show that until the ark would have been turned vertically, the buoyant force would produce a righting couple that would act to restore the vessel to its upright position. As a matter of fact, Commander Lee touchberry of the U.S. Navy took the ark's dimensions and put them into the Navy's computerized programs. Calculations show that the dimensions of the ark were a perfect match with the Navy's ideal ship dimension ratio." Another interesting this is that the "Scripps institue of Oceanography as La Jolla, California tested a scale model of the ark in a large wave tank during the filming of the movie "In Search of Noah's Ark". By mechanical means, large waves were produced in the tank to test the capability of the ark in simulated waves greater than any ever experienced in the ocean. It was found that the ark was impossible to capsize."

Congratulations. You have now shown evidence that whomever wrote Genesis had seen a boat before.

BTW, isn't all the above an attempt to present an argument from science and rationality for the truth of a bible story? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the effort, but I thought we were supposed to just take all this stuff on faith. So if all this gets refuted (as it has) does that make the bible story less true? If not, and only faith can allow us to read the story properly, then why bother to make up this argument?

Why do fundamentalists, with their unshakeable faith, always so excited to find anything that might be empirical evidence that supports the bible?

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Just the fact most cultures

Just the fact most cultures have a story is definitely not proof. Did you know most cultures have stories of vampires? Are they real? Most cultures also have stories of were-creatures (men or women who turn into animals) - usually whatever creature they consider most dangerous - Western Europe had werewolves, Northern Europe werebears, The Aztecs had were-Jaguars - the Polynesians even told stories of were-sharks! Are these stories true?

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According to Hindu mythology

According to Hindu mythology in Balmiki Ramayan and puranas has divided time into 4 ages or yug.

Satyug=1728000,tretayug=1296000,duaparyug=864000 and kalyug=432000.The sum total of all these jugs comes out to be 4320000. And it is believed that this cycle of yugs is continuous and peoples age,behaviour, and even height!!!! Keeps on changing in these yugs

Ram existed in Tretayug, Krishna existed in Duaparyug and we are now living in Kalyug(Kal=dark) Dark age.


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You've missed a very

You've missed a very important logical error in all of this.

Your logic goes like this:

1. There was a flood.
2. There is a book that says there was a flood
3. The book also says there is a god.
4. Therefore there is a god.

When you reduce it down to this, can you see the error? There are lots of books that have accuracies in them, and are yet inaccurate. I don't think anyone here would argue that everything in the bible is inaccurate, but we would argue that the stories containing logical impossibilities are.

Science has several good explanations for the relocation of water, the raising and lowering of mountains, etc. Did you know there's a theory called the "Snowball Theory" that says that at one time, the entire earth was covered with snow?

The thing is, I for one, don't have a problem with the idea that there has been at least one massive geological event that involved water. I have a problem saying that god exists because some ancient people heard a story about such an event and decided that the big bugaboo in the sky made it happen.

Logic, man! Use it, and you will be happy.

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JeremiahSmith wrote:And a

JeremiahSmith wrote:
And a follow up question, after you've finished replying to all the others: If the Flood was supposed to rid the world of evil, why didn't it work? After all, it's a basic tenet of Christianity that there is evil in the world. Did God screw up? This is a very serious question, you know. Is God totally incompetent? And, more disturbingly, did God know in advance that the Flood wouldn't cleanse the world of evil? He is omniscient, supposedly. It seems to me that the only conclusion we can draw is that God killed a lot of people for no reason whatsoever. But I'm sure you've got some carefully crafted response. Maybe the evil that God wiped out in the flood was some sort of super evil that makes modern evil look charitable by comparision!

My friend. you miss the purpose of the flood. If you are going to argue something read into it. Every part of the Word of God is found in multiple places, specifically there is ONE thing that i significantly repetative, and that is what i like to call "the three steps to heaven". Death, Burial, Ressurection. The book of Genesis in itself shows this with a) man's fall from grace, Adam's sin-death because falling out of the grace of God is a type of death b) Noah's flood-burial and c) God's promise to Abraham-ressurection.

Jesus of course physically died, physically was buried, and he rose again.

Christians must spiritually do the same. Spiritual death is repentance, which is turning away from your wicked ways, or as Paul puts it, our old man is crucified. Spiritual burial is baptism in JESUS' NAME(notice i said Jesus and not "Father, Son, Holy Ghost) or as Peter put it "....God waited in the days of Noah....eight souls were saved by water.THE LIKE FIGURE whereunto even baptism doth now also save us...."(1 Peter 3:20-21). Spiritual ressurection is receiving the Holy Ghost(which is INITIALLY accompanied by evidence of other tongues) example: Acts chapter 2.

The great flood had a significant purpose in the plan of God. It was a cleansing, a burial of sin, just as we bury our sins in baptism (before you pull one on my here, the physical water doesn't take away sin, its the obedience to the Word of God in getting baptized that takes away sin)

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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Have you ever considered

Have you ever considered that maybe the story--as well as general thme throughout all cultures and religions--of death, transformation, and rebirth, is simply a story about this human life expressed in this Biblical story as a metaphysical metaphor?

When in highschool, did you ever study the hero's quest? It is a literary theme that involves a character's separation (death), a period of removal and transformation (allegorical burial, if you would), and a return in a transformed and improved state (re-birth/resurrection). When the new hero returns, he has transcended the event that has caused his separation and has become more powerful, improved, triumphant.

This is a theme that has tremendous import for human psychology, as it tells us a lot about how we improve ourselves. It tells us about how people can re-create themselves in a metaphorical sense.

But the fucking stories are not true!

If you keep holding onto the stories being actually true, you will never learn or improve yourself, but will remain ignorant, and childish. It is a god damned book. Not a fucking direct word of the creator of the universe. Get over yourself and really learn, for once.

Shaun

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


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ShaunPhilly wrote:Have you

ShaunPhilly wrote:
Have you ever considered that maybe the story--as well as general thme throughout all cultures and religions--of death, transformation, and rebirth, is simply a story about this human life expressed in this Biblical story as a metaphysical metaphor?

When in highschool, did you ever study the hero's quest? It is a literary theme that involves a character's separation (death), a period of removal and transformation (allegorical burial, if you would), and a return in a transformed and improved state (re-birth/resurrection). When the new hero returns, he has transcended the event that has caused his separation and has become more powerful, improved, triumphant.

This is a theme that has tremendous import for human psychology, as it tells us a lot about how we improve ourselves. It tells us about how people can re-create themselves in a metaphorical sense.

But the fucking stories are not true!

If you keep holding onto the stories being actually true, you will never learn or improve yourself, but will remain ignorant, and childish. It is a god damned book. Not a fucking direct word of the creator of the universe. Get over yourself and really learn, for once.

Shaun

Its not about improving ourselves my friend. Its about removing our flesh. Paul talks about in Galatians how when we are baptized into Christ, we PUT ON CHRIST. Like take this for example. Every morning when I put on my nice blue collared shirt and slacks, I become Aviation Electronics Technician 3rd Class Barcomb, of the US Navy. Without that uniform I am just Kyle Barcomb. Now when I was baptized IN JESUS NAME for the remission of my sins i PUT ON CHRIST. So now I am Kyle Barcomb Jesus. I now have the authority of Jesus in me. I am no longer who i was. Plus as i said before the Bible clearly states that GOD SPEAKS THROUGH 2 OR 3 WITNESSES.

Ill have to rephrase what you stated to me "But I don't think that those stories are true"

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou wrote:
ShaunPhilly wrote:
Have you ever considered that maybe the story--as well as general thme throughout all cultures and religions--of death, transformation, and rebirth, is simply a story about this human life expressed in this Biblical story as a metaphysical metaphor?

When in highschool, did you ever study the hero's quest? It is a literary theme that involves a character's separation (death), a period of removal and transformation (allegorical burial, if you would), and a return in a transformed and improved state (re-birth/resurrection). When the new hero returns, he has transcended the event that has caused his separation and has become more powerful, improved, triumphant.

This is a theme that has tremendous import for human psychology, as it tells us a lot about how we improve ourselves. It tells us about how people can re-create themselves in a metaphorical sense.

But the fucking stories are not true!

If you keep holding onto the stories being actually true, you will never learn or improve yourself, but will remain ignorant, and childish. It is a god damned book. Not a fucking direct word of the creator of the universe. Get over yourself and really learn, for once.

Shaun

Its not about improving ourselves my friend. Its about removing our flesh. Paul talks about in Galatians how when we are baptized into Christ, we PUT ON CHRIST. Like take this for example. Every morning when I put on my nice blue collared shirt and slacks, I become Aviation Electronics Technician 3rd Class Barcomb, of the US Navy. Without that uniform I am just Kyle Barcomb. Now when I was baptized IN JESUS NAME for the remission of my sins i PUT ON CHRIST. So now I am Kyle Barcomb Jesus. I now have the authority of Jesus in me. I am no longer who i was. Plus as i said before the Bible clearly states that GOD SPEAKS THROUGH 2 OR 3 WITNESSES.

Ill have to rephrase what you stated to me "But I don't think that those stories are true"

Then John 8:14-18 comes in and blows al that witness stuff away. If one of your witnesses is invisible, he's not a witness. If you claim that Jesus is God in the flesh, there's still only one witness present, not two.

"Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.""

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Removing your flesh,

Removing your flesh, ey?

Well, I'm assuming you mean that metaphorically. Removing your flesh tends to actually kill you.

Putting on Jesus? If you say so. Taht's one hell of a claim. You'll have to understand if I don't believe you. Like I've said, the Bible saying so don't make it so.

That's all I have to say about this. if there are any other points I might comment, but there is no point in trying to convince people that mythology is any more than that; stories.

Shaun

(whom is going to read the 3 little pigs story, but will somehow restrain from being convinced that a wolf will blow down my house)

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


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JesusLovesYou, Could you

JesusLovesYou,

Could you please explain how Koala Bears made their way to the ark? They are only found in one place (Australia) only have one source of food (eucalyptus tree), so how could they manage to be in the middle east and reach their way to austrailia? Also, how did the egyptians manage to continue building pyramids during this time? Not to mention several other civilizations that existed and thrived during the flood?

Also keep in mind that the masters of ship building switched to steel ships. Why you may ask? Because large wooden vessels were extremely unstable, would warp and eventually come undone. In fact, a vessel the size of the ark could never be stable thats why large ships are now made of steel hulls.

There are other little things like insects, plants, what happened to all of them? Not to mention the geological record does not match the great flood assertion. In fact most that still believe in the flood, hold to a theory that the great flood of the bible was only a regional flood and did not even encompass a whole continent. Only an area of several miles.

If you could answer this I would be grateful. Thanks.


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melchisedec

melchisedec wrote:
JesusLovesYou,

Could you please explain how Koala Bears made their way to the ark? They are only found in one place (Australia) only have one source of food (eucalyptus tree), so how could they manage to be in the middle east and reach their way to austrailia? Also, how did the egyptians manage to continue building pyramids during this time? Not to mention several other civilizations that existed and thrived during the flood?

Also keep in mind that the masters of ship building switched to steel ships. Why you may ask? Because large wooden vessels were extremely unstable, would warp and eventually come undone. In fact, a vessel the size of the ark could never be stable thats why large ships are now made of steel hulls.

There are other little things like insects, plants, what happened to all of them? Not to mention the geological record does not match the great flood assertion. In fact most that still believe in the flood, hold to a theory that the great flood of the bible was only a regional flood and did not even encompass a whole continent. Only an area of several miles.

If you could answer this I would be grateful. Thanks.

Like ive said to somebody before TAKE A LOOK AT HOW THE WORLD WAS BEFORE THE FLOOD! I think the problem is here, is you don't actually READ! BEFORE THE FLOOD there were no carnivores, herbivores, omnivores. God said go kill and eat AFTER the flood BECAUSE there was less vegetation in the immediate. If you notice THE GEOLOGICAL COLUMN CAN ONLY BE FOUND IN THE TEXTBOOK, IT DOES NOT REALLY EXIST. As for the the capability of the ark 1) look at it again, think about ships of that time, think of a big opening in one part of the ship that would act like a piston. 2) GRACE

I am running short on time, i have to go to work like right this second. im going to copy my password and try to log on at lunch and finish this post if i haven't already

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


melchisedec
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JesusLovesYou wrote: Like

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Like ive said to somebody before TAKE A LOOK AT HOW THE WORLD WAS BEFORE THE FLOOD! I think the problem is here, is you don't actually READ! BEFORE THE FLOOD there were no carnivores, herbivores, omnivores.

Huh? Are you saying nobody ate food before the flood?

Quote:

God said go kill and eat AFTER the flood BECAUSE there was less vegetation in the immediate.

Hmm.. What verses?

Quote:

If you notice THE GEOLOGICAL COLUMN CAN ONLY BE FOUND IN THE TEXTBOOK, IT DOES NOT REALLY EXIST.

Huh? I don't understand at all. I'm beginning to think you are a very young lad.

Quote:

As for the the capability of the ark 1) look at it again, think about ships of that time, think of a big opening in one part of the ship that would act like a piston.

This makes no kind of sense.

Quote:

I am running short on time, i have to go to work like right this second. im going to copy my password and try to log on at lunch and finish this post if i haven't already

Please do because I am asking legitimate questions and you are responding with incomprehensible statements.


JeremiahSmith
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JesusLovesYou wrote:If you

JesusLovesYou wrote:
If you notice THE GEOLOGICAL COLUMN CAN ONLY BE FOUND IN THE TEXTBOOK, IT DOES NOT REALLY EXIST.

what
huh

I think you are a little mistaken.

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


Hambydammit
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Jesuslovesyou, I mean this

Jesuslovesyou, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but you need to get out more. Some of the things you've said are pretty much insane... insane being defined as completely out of touch with reality. You would do well to visit some museums, read some books written by scientists instead of preachers, and maybe visit another country for a while.

I'm not trying to be mean, or attack you. I think you're probably capable of rational thought, but you're very, very deep into your indoctrination.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:
Jesuslovesyou, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but you need to get out more. Some of the things you've said are pretty much insane... insane being defined as completely out of touch with reality. You would do well to visit some museums, read some books written by scientists instead of preachers, and maybe visit another country for a while.

I'm not trying to be mean, or attack you. I think you're probably capable of rational thought, but you're very, very deep into your indoctrination.

I don't blame his worldview for this, I think his/her inability to create a logical argument and response is what does it for me. The thing about noahs ark and the piston did it for me.


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melchisedec

melchisedec wrote:
JesusLovesYou wrote:

Like ive said to somebody before TAKE A LOOK AT HOW THE WORLD WAS BEFORE THE FLOOD! I think the problem is here, is you don't actually READ! BEFORE THE FLOOD there were no carnivores, herbivores, omnivores.

Huh? Are you saying nobody ate food before the flood?

Quote:

God said go kill and eat AFTER the flood BECAUSE there was less vegetation in the immediate.

Hmm.. What verses?

Quote:

If you notice THE GEOLOGICAL COLUMN CAN ONLY BE FOUND IN THE TEXTBOOK, IT DOES NOT REALLY EXIST.

Huh? I don't understand at all. I'm beginning to think you are a very young lad.

Quote:

As for the the capability of the ark 1) look at it again, think about ships of that time, think of a big opening in one part of the ship that would act like a piston.

This makes no kind of sense.

Quote:

I am running short on time, i have to go to work like right this second. im going to copy my password and try to log on at lunch and finish this post if i haven't already

Please do because I am asking legitimate questions and you are responding with incomprehensible statements.

Im sorry i couldn't respond any sooner. I HAVE A LIFE OUTSIDE THE COMPUTER. I work 9-10 hours a day during the week, and I had a christmas party to go to last night. Don't even bother arguing about christmas with me, because I know that the holiday has pagan roots, BUT CHRISTIANITY WAS AROUND 300 YEARS BEFORE CHRISTMAS. I don't celebrate the "traditional" christmas because of that. If you walk into my apartment you won't find a tree, lights, a mary, a nativity scene, ANY OF THAT.

But anyway, to make more sense of what i said:

A) YES THEY DID EAT BEFORE THE FLOOD, THEY JUST DIDN'T EAT MEAT, MAN AND ANIMAL ALIKE.

B)Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

C) I AM NOT YOUNG, IM 21 YEARS OF AGE. HOW IS IT LOGICAL TO SAY "THE ROCKS DATE THE FOSSILS, THE FOSSILS DATE THE ROCKS" thats circular logic

D) Noah’s ark was built only to float, not to sail anywhere. Many ark scholars believe that the ark was a "barge" shape, not a pointed "boat" shape. This would greatly increase the cargo capacity. Scoffers have pointed out that the largest sailing ships were less than 300 feet because of the problem of twisting and flexing the boat. These ships had giant masts, and sails to catch the wind. Noah's ark need neither of those and therefore had far less torsional stress.
AND HERE IS THE "PISTON" I WAS TALKING ABOUT
The ark may have had a "moon-pool" in the center. The larger ships would have a hole in the center of the bottom of the boat with walls extending up into the ship. There are several reasons for this feature:
It allowed water to go up into the hole as the ship crested waves. This would be needed to relieve strain on longer ships.
The rising and lowering water acted as a piston to pump fresh air in and out of the ship. This would prevent the buildup of dangerous gasses from all the animals on board.
The hole was a great place to dump garbage into the ocean without going outside.

OH AND ANOTHER THING ABOUT THE MARINE LIFE ON TOP OF MOUNTAINS. THERE HAVE BEEN PETRIFIED CLAMS IN THE CLOSED POSITION FOUND. WHEN CLAMS DIE THEY OPEN UP, BEING PETRIFIED CLOSED WOULD INDICATE A RAPID BURIAL.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:A) YES

JesusLovesYou wrote:
A) YES THEY DID EAT BEFORE THE FLOOD, THEY JUST DIDN'T EAT MEAT, MAN AND ANIMAL ALIKE.

So what did they eat afterwards? All the plants and seeds on Earth had been totally waterlogged. (Which, of course, raises the question of where the hell the olive branch came from.) All that salt water would have practically sterilized the Earth by drowning out the plants and ruining their seeds. The herbivores would have starved to death; that is, if the carnivores hadn't gotten to them first. What did the carnivores eat? Not all of them can subsist on leaves for a bit like, say, a dog or person can.

Also, some creationists say that carnivorism and parasitism come into the world as a result of the Fall, not the Flood. What gives, dude?

Quote:
C) I AM NOT YOUNG, IM 21 YEARS OF AGE. HOW IS IT LOGICAL TO SAY "THE ROCKS DATE THE FOSSILS, THE FOSSILS DATE THE ROCKS" thats circular logic

You're right. That's totally illogical. That's also not what scientists do. So, you know, problem solved.

The rocks themselves can be dated without fossils. This can be done relative to other strata, by basic principles of stratigraphy such as "stuff on the bottom is probably older than stuff on top", to conclude that Stratum B is older than Stratum A and younger than Stratum C. This is only a relative date, though. You can also do absolute dating, through methods like radiometric dating, or perhaps tree rings if you've got those, or by some other method. The fossils themselves are used for correlating rocks that have had their dates determined by other means. It was noted in the early days of paleontology that some fossils, now called index fossils, only appeared in some strata, and could be used to correlate strata at different locations. For instance, if a certain fossil only appears in a single stratum, and you find that fossil in the earlier-mentioned stratum B, you can use that knowledge to conclude that all strata with that certain fossil are older than Stratum A and younger than Stratum C. When you take the time to figure out what scientists actually do, there's no circularity. The rocks are dated through some other means, and the fossils are to correlate a stratum with other strata that have already been dated by non-fossilular means.

Quote:
OH AND ANOTHER THING ABOUT THE MARINE LIFE ON TOP OF MOUNTAINS. THERE HAVE BEEN PETRIFIED CLAMS IN THE CLOSED POSITION FOUND. WHEN CLAMS DIE THEY OPEN UP, BEING PETRIFIED CLOSED WOULD INDICATE A RAPID BURIAL.

Floods usually deposit things in valleys, not mountains. And of course the clams could have been rapidly buried in a minor local flood or mudslide. There are other ways to rapidly bury something besides a massive Earth-drowning flood. A flood would have disturbed the shells and tossed them about, while fossils on mountains show no signs of having been carried in a flood. Even Leonardo da Vinci noticed this. The flood hypothesis just doesn't correlate with the facts.

I'd link you to "Problems with a Global Flood", and the "Index to Creationist Claims", claims CH401 up through CH590. I could link you to a critical review of a study on the Ark. I could just go ahead and ask you to read the FAQs linked here. But I know you won't. Creationists hardly ever do. It's not like you'll listen to a damn thing I post or link to. I could just link to the latest Jerkcity (not work safe) or The Conet Project for number stations for all the good it'll do. Prove me wrong, man! At least give it a quick little glance. Even if it doesn't change your mind, you'll at least know that scientists have answers to your questions. That was the surprising thing to me when I stopped being a creationist. I used to think that the scientists would have their minds blown when they heard all these things showing how they were wrong, but instead I learned that they had not only heard them years earlier but already had long detailed answers and rebuttals. I was a little shocked.

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:EVIDENCE

JesusLovesYou wrote:
EVIDENCE TODAY FOR A FLOOD
" Nearly all the great mountain areas of the world have been found to have marine fossils near their summits. There is no conclusion possible otehr than that the mountains were once under water and have all been uplifted, essentially simutaneously, which accords well with the biblical flood.
Fossilization requires a sudden burial. Coal seams, oil feilds and natural gas deposits are specific examples of fossil fuels.
Most of the rocks on the earth's surface are sedimentary rocks that require heavy rain for erosion, transportation and deposition of sediment.
Anthropologists have collected over two hundred myths and legends of the flood from civilizations all over the world. Since all humans are decencents of Noah, one would expect to find some stories of the flood in ancient records. Such is the case. These flood legends cinsistantly show that a worldwide flood destroyed both man and animals, a vessel of safety was provided and only a few people survived the flood."

CAPABILITIES OF THE ARK
The Dimensions of the ark given in Genesis are in cubits, which were at that time 1.5 feet. The dimensions were 300x50x30. Which if you convert to feet its 1,518,750ft^3. The Bible says that Noah took 2 of every kind of unclean animal, and 7 of every kind of clean animal (animals used for food and sacrifice). That means 2 dogs, 2 cats, etc. NOT 2 great danes, 2 cocker spaniels...... If you do the math excluding aquatic animals (because they were not in the ark) the number is 17,500 kinds of animals, or basically 50,000 animals total. Now the logical thing to do is take the youngins of the animals because the older animals had a better chance of dying off. So with that only 36.5% of the ark was filled, so even if Noah took all the older animals which were bigger it would probably only raise the cosumed space 20-25% still leaving plenty of room for food and 8 humans. Keep in mind the ark was designed to FLOAT!!!!! NOT SAIL!!!!!. "It was designed to float and not capsize under the impact of great waves and winds. Mathematical and buoyancy calculations show that until the ark would have been turned vertically, the buoyant force would produce a righting couple that would act to restore the vessel to its upright position. As a matter of fact, Commander Lee touchberry of the U.S. Navy took the ark's dimensions and put them into the Navy's computerized programs. Calculations show that the dimensions of the ark were a perfect match with the Navy's ideal ship dimension ratio." Another interesting this is that the "Scripps institue of Oceanography as La Jolla, California tested a scale model of the ark in a large wave tank during the filming of the movie "In Search of Noah's Ark". By mechanical means, large waves were produced in the tank to test the capability of the ark in simulated waves greater than any ever experienced in the ocean. It was found that the ark was impossible to capsize."

SOURCES (CUZ I KNOW YALL LIKE SOURCES)
PAVLU, 57
MORRIS, "BIBLICAL BASIS", 259, 291-295
PAUL S. TAYLOR, "THE ILLUSTRATED ORIGENS ANSWER BOOK", EDEN PRODUCTIONS, P.O. BOX 41644, MESA, AZ, 1990, 112-113
JOHN RAJXA, "FLOOD ACCOUNTS AROUND THE WORLD", SCIENCE, SCRIPTURE AND SALVATION BROADCAST NO. 170, INSTITUTE FOR CREATION RESEARCH, EL CAJON, CA, AUGUST 12 1989
ARTHUR HODGES III, "DIMENSIONS OF NOAH'S ARK", E-MAIL CORRESPONDENCE, NOVEMBER 7, 1997
ARLO MOEHLENPAH, "CREATION VS. EVOLUTION-SCIENTIFIC AND RELIGIOUS CONSIDERATIONS" PGS. 23-27

there is a perfectly scientific exlpanaition for that. You are aware there was once an ice age right? And that when the ices melted the water had to go somewhere? Well that is more likely what happened than "God" flooding it. How could the flood have happened within 4500 years when theres nothing about it? Not even on cave walls. Its no where. So the only reasonable exlanaition is that if, there was a flood, it happened possibly in the last ice age or so.

"Faith: not wanting to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)
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Yellow_Number_Five
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JesusLovesYou wrote:Insidium

JesusLovesYou wrote:
Insidium Profundis wrote:
If this hypothesis was true, every species we observe today would have experienced a tremendous population bottleneck at the time of the flood. Modern population genetics suggests that this is definitely not the case.

What about the plants? Surely, all the submerged land plants would have been killed off. Why are there still land plants today, especially with large gene pools?

The oldest tree is 4.8K years old. How do you explain that?

Also, how did the marsupials get to Australia and New Zealand?

What did the carnivores that Noah brought on board eat? What about the herbivores? What about viruses and bacteria that we find today? What about parasitic species that require hosts to survive? What about dinosaurs?

Also, a large amount of room is necessary to properly house a single animal (take a look at any zoo). How did you extrapolate that there would be enough room (I'd like to see the actual calculations)?

How do explain the oldest tree?

How do you explain radiological dating, Hubble's Law, Olber's Paradox, endogenous retrogenes, the geological column, comic microwave background radiation, the biological similatity of all life on earth, working vitamin C genes in canines and broken genes in primates, coccyx retroposition, atavism, shared chirality of proteins and DNA, ect? Please discount them scientifically, or simply explain them SCIENTIFICALLY without using modern cosmological or biological theory.

Quote:
well the flood was supposed to have happened APPROXIMATELY 4500 years ago. So the oldest tree would APPROXIMATELY fit in that area.

So what? What, exactly, does this prove, other than very, very old trees top out at that age? Didn't people used to live to ridiculous ages too? Where are they?

Quote:
Plants? If you read, up until after the flood, the only thing anybody humans and animals alike ate, was vegetation.

Oh, yeah, the tooth and claw of the velociraptor was clearly for tearing apart and hunting dangerous plants. LOL

Quote:
Couldn't have Noah took food that was not eaten, or extra food that he had taken on the ark and PLANTED IT? (btw the 5 extra that were taken for food and sacrifice of the clean animals was a foreshadow of what was to come)

So, did Noah take Ebola and HIV on the Ark as well? Why? Did he take ducks and fish and all the bacteria as well? Are you seriously this stupid?

Quote:
I already answered the carnivore question, and don't you think Noah BROUGHT FOOD?

And if it it were impossible to fit all the organisms on earth on the boat described in the Bible, what makes you think he had room for food? Simply taking two of all the bacteria on earth onto the boat would have been several tons, and they eat up to 400x their body weight per day.

Quote:
Bacteria and Parasite? if you READ and apply SCIENCE up until the flood took place the earth was a perfect, disease free, environment (ex. vapor canopy, etc.) You don't think noah took Dinos? He didnt have to take the biggest ones, two of each KIND. There are rumors of dinos still existant today, hence the congo legend. What were they called before the 1800s? where do you think the DRAGON legends come from. look at all the dragon legends and compare the descriptions of the dragons to dinos such as T-rex and tricerotops etc.

Wow, just wow. I fear for the future of humanity, people like you are the reason.

Quote:
again, the room? NOAH DID NOT HAVE TO TAKE THE LARGEST ANIMALS? IT WOULD BE ONLY LOGICAL TO TAKE THE SMALLEST/YOUNGEST ANIMALS

Yeah, because it isn't more logical that such a bullshit ridiculous thing never happened.

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Yellow_Number_Five

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
Quote:
Bacteria and Parasite? if you READ and apply SCIENCE up until the flood took place the earth was a perfect, disease free, environment (ex. vapor canopy, etc.) You don't think noah took Dinos? He didnt have to take the biggest ones, two of each KIND. There are rumors of dinos still existant today, hence the congo legend. What were they called before the 1800s? where do you think the DRAGON legends come from. look at all the dragon legends and compare the descriptions of the dragons to dinos such as T-rex and tricerotops etc.

WHO LET THE TROLLS OUT? HOO...HOO HOO HOO...WHO LET THE TROLLS OUT? HOO...HOO HOO HOO...

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
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