Greeting fellow souls

MrPeters
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Greeting fellow souls

Im not a PHD
Im not a Bible thumping, beat you over the head, religious freak.
Im not an athiest either

But, I am a thinker....
My weapons are TRUTH and LOGIC.
I welcome debates. I love stimulating opposing views. Please, if you answer me and my "voice of reason" try to be intelligent.

Here are my rules for engagement.

I will NOT use BIBLE scripture to make my point unless Im specifically asked
I will NOT use "faith" to try and support a "fact"
I will warn you ahead of time when I share what I "believe"

Please, no stupidity. I need intelligent conversation. I will respond to you intelligently as well.

Let the games begin.....


Sapient
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MrPeters wrote:Sapient

MrPeters wrote:
Sapient wrote:
Furthermore you're using a site about science which appears to be created by theists with an agenda. You're making your arguments look weak.

I dont see anywhere on that site where they say they are theistic.

Well you wouldn't considering you have almost no spidey-science senses. It's a deliberatly misleading site made to look like science, yet every step of the way they bastardize science. I really don't feel like taking it point by point. You wont "get it" and my audience will take one look and know what I'm talking about, so I'd simply be wasting my time building up long drawn out arguments against it.

For all the onlookers here is the main page: http://www.allaboutscience.org/ Click around and you'll see what I mean.

Here's just one paragraph from the site:

fundy site deliberatly misrepresenting science to lie to it's readers wrote:

http://www.allaboutscience.org/intelligent-design.htm

Intelligent Design - Life

Ignoring the obvious Intelligent Design that permeates life, scientists have developed the theory of evolution in an effort to explain the origin of life via spontaneous generation. This "scientific" theory is very distinctive. Commonly, scientists observe data, interpret the data, and then formulate conclusions based upon that data. Yet, evolutionists have formulated their "scientific" conclusion without resorting to any data at all. In fact, evolutionists have steadfastly maintained their conclusion despite data to the contrary.

I've bolded the most despicable lie of the selected portion. No real scientist would make such an ignorant claim.

Still waiting for you to refute the evolution evidences I presented in my first post of this thread.

Quote:
Plus, I could reverse the argument and say that you are using sites that appear to have an athiestic view.

Isn't it odd that legitimate science sites, appear to have an "atheistic" view? Hmmmmm, wonder what that tells us.

Quote:
This does not appear to be a good argument from you. You asked me for a link, I gave you one. It wasnt good enough because it didnt say what you wanted it to.

I agree you gave me the link, good for you. What I didn't agree on was that you were actually putting forth a site that represented good science. You are putting forth a site that represents theology. It's not "good enough" not because it doesn't say what I want it to say, it's not good enough because it's not science!

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Sapient
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MrPeters wrote:MattShizzle

MrPeters wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:
It certainly isn't anywhere near as ridiculous as the idea of an infinite god in the middle of an infinite nothing, doing nothing and thinking of nothing (there would have been nothing to think about!) until the time he decided to create the universe.

That is your OPINION and you are entitled to it. My point is, a statement of FAITH is a statement of FAITH and you have to have FAITH to beleive either statement.

Ignoring the fact that the statement you claimed science has to have faith for, isn't even a statement that real science makes!

Way to go voice of intellectual dishonesty.

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MattShizzle
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Fundies always are making

Fundies always are making that claim that science is based on faith, which is utterly absurd. One reason we aren't "growing wings" for example, is we aren't under the stress required right now to evolve - besides the time factor. A high tech society allows virtually anyone to survive, thereby minimizing natural selection.

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MrPeters
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I feel SO exposed. You like

I feel SO exposed.

You like the scientist you take great faith in, have made several assumptions about me. You ASSUMED because I live in proximity to Kent Hovind that I work for him? HAHAHA!! Thats typical. Lets see, he is in Pennsicola I believe. That is 9 hours drive time from me. How do you figure that that is close proximity? I can get to GA in 4 hours. No wonder your confused. I guess if you go by millions of years, 9 hours is close huh? So guess what, I WIN!! You are DEAD wrong. I have no affiliation whatsoever with Kent Hovind. You ASSUMED. You also assume that because I work at ECCC that Im some wack job religious freak. You think by sharing with all your forum people that I work at a church, Im some hack. Wrong agian. I play in a rock band, have a peirced eyebrow and long hair. I run production at ECCC. Thats sound, video, lighting,graphics. I also fail to see the relevance in what I do for a living and our conversations. I think I bug you Saip, and Im not going anywhere anytime soon. So...deal with it.

Logic, Reason, TRUTH


MrPeters
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MattShizzle wrote:Fundies

MattShizzle wrote:
Fundies always are making that claim that science is based on faith, which is utterly absurd. One reason we aren't "growing wings" for example, is we aren't under the stress required right now to evolve - besides the time factor. A high tech society allows virtually anyone to survive, thereby minimizing natural selection.

CRAP!! I want to fly!! Cant my will make me evovle? Mind over matter? Answer the question Matt. Do both these statements require faith to beleive.

In the beginning God created...
In the beginning there was nothing...

Logic, Reason, TRUTH


MattShizzle
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You're a very silly person.

You're a very silly person. Yeah, they would. They are both very irrational (mind over matter and thinking will would influence evolution.) Could only be believed through faith. From your statements you obviously have no clue whatsoever about evolution. Sad

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MrPeters wrote:I feel SO

MrPeters wrote:
I feel SO exposed.

You like the scientist you take great faith in, have made several assumptions about me. You ASSUMED because I live in proximity to Kent Hovind that I work for him?

No I didn't dumbass, I ASKED if you did. Stop acting stupid.

Quote:
You also assume that because I work at ECCC that Im some wack job religious freak.

No, I have evidence your a wack job religious freak, I merely asked what your position is at ECCC.

There is a big difference between asking questions and assuming.

Quote:
I play in a rock band, have a peirced eyebrow and long hair. I run production at ECCC. Thats sound, video, lighting,graphics. I also fail to see the relevance in what I do for a living and our conversations.

Ya see, that wasn't so hard was it. I asked what your role is there, you merely give an answer. You're right, there isn't much relevance to our conversation, simply trying to get to the bottom of who you really are. Just nice to know. You know who I am.

Quote:
I think I bug you Saip, and Im not going anywhere anytime soon. So...deal with it.

Naw, you don't really bug me much, you do represent what's wrong with our world though. Ignorance representing itself as fact permeates itself through much of society, you are the epitome of it.

As for you staying here... thats fine by me, every dog needs a chew toy. Keep your nose clean, and you can be here as long as you want. I'll even let your misrepresentations of RRS and Science positions slip by (generally regarded as a forum no-no) if they continue to be as easy to see through as your past posts.

I'm still waiting for you to refute the posted evidences for evolution by the way. Anytime now.

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MrPeters wrote:You think by

MrPeters wrote:
You think by sharing with all your forum people that I work at a church, Im some hack. Wrong agian. I play in a rock band, have a peirced eyebrow and long hair.

So? I know tons of people with pierced parts, long hair and bands. Atheist, christian, pagan, muslim ones. This does not give you "i am not a fundie" status.
Sorry, this just smacks to me of christian rock, "See kids, we're cool! Please like us, our lyrics are about loving Jesus but they are heavy so we are HIP!"
And now you're using the image to try and "throw us off" as it were. Why did we need to know any of that? We're not debating your modern "coolness". This thread is about evolution and the big bang (currently).
The fact that you WORK at a church is directly relevant to this issue...... Do you believe in ID yourself? Or are you trying to prove that because (in your eyes) science requires "faith" as well, that evolution is false or no more reasonable than ID?


MrPeters
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Im not a "fundie". My posts

Im not a "fundie". My posts are logical. You all claim I just dont "understand" evolution. Well, I can argue that you dont "understand" Christianity. So if I dont understand evolution, its because I dont beleibe in it. So, you dont understand Chirstians because you dont beleive in it. That makes no sense to me. Laws and truths are everywhere and provable. Evolution challenges every aspect of logic. I dont care what mambo-jahambo a scientific journal has posted. Evolution is a science plauged with fraud and continues to do so. It is my tax dollars going to support your false "religion". I dont need to fully understand every PHDorks assesement of how its A FACT when it isnt. And speaking of Hovind, how come no one has won his $10,000 challenge to prove the ability for one kind of animal to "evolve" into another? I thought you guys said it was true! Not a shred of proof. Dont worry Saip, Im reading all that crap you posted. I just need a little more time to resopnd.

Logic, Reason, TRUTH


Yellow_Number_Five
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MrPeters

MrPeters wrote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Oh, so you believe in "micro" evolution. Please explain the mechanistic differences between micro and macro evolution and the specific mechanism that prevents so called micro evolution proceeding to speciation.

Then explain to me why you cannot walk a thousand miles one step at a time.

Here is the name game that you guys so love to refer to. Its only called micro evolution because scientist call it that.

Are you shitting me? Scientists typically simply refer to it as evolution. They make no quantifications, because none are needed.

Quote:
It should be referred to "adaptation". the ability to adapt to its environment. If a dog keeps jumping off a cliff its not going to grow feathers and fly after a million years. There are genetic limitations to adaptation or micro evolution as they so call it. The genetic code prohibits differnt KINDS of animals to interbreed.

Of course genetics prohibit certain animals from interbreeding, what the fuck do you think is the main criterion for species designation when it comes to taxonomy? Feel free to address my point any time.

Quote:
So tell me, what is to evolve next? Has Mankind reached its limits?

Of course not. Man is evolving as we speak. Increases in lactose tolerance in certain populaions and similar phenomena atest to this. You obviously simply don't understand what evolution is, and get angry when I point out your ignornarance.

Quote:
To me, if we could fly, we could take one step and go a thousand miles at a time. Why dont we have wings?

We have had no reason do evolve wings, now we MAKE wings when we desire them. Why should we adapt them?

Quote:
Hasnt evolution figured out that we need them?

Quite the opposite, actuaually.

Quote:
We wouldnt need any mode of transportation if we had wings. How about photosythasis? We should be able to create our own food within our bodies using the sun. That would be way more effecient.

Yes, that would be the way to go if you wanted to be a stationary being. Photosynthesis does provide energy of course, buy not the sort of energy required for locomotion or to power a brain. Animals have a found a way of living that requires them to ingest more energy than the sun alone can provide.

So tell us why the perfect designer made it so that we can't simply sun bask and survive. What is your "scientific" anwer to that?

Quote:
How come we havent evovled at all in 8,000 years of recorded human history? OH THATS RIGHT! We need MILLIONS of years. DARN! I want to fly NOW!!

We have evolved in the last few thousand years. I've already given you one example, and can give you others. What, exactly, do you think evolution is? You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Yellow_Number_Five
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MrPeters wrote:Sapient

MrPeters wrote:
Sapient wrote:
.
Who said "out of nothing?" What is the source?

The best, non-mathematical description that any cosmologist can create for describing the Big Bang is that it occurred in every cubic centimeter of space in the universe with no unique starting point. In fact, it was an event which our mathematics indicate, actually brought space and time into existence. It did not occur IN space at a particular location, because it created space ( and time itself) as it went along. There may have existed some state 'prior' to the Big Bang, but it is a state not described by its location in time or space. This state preceded the existence of our time and space.-astronomycafe.net

If it created time and space, then there was NOTHING before that, at least in what humans dertermine as something. This statement sure takes alot of FAITH to beleive. Eh, lets just take thier word for it because we are so "dumb" compared to these "scientist"

Quote:

IRONICALLY.... the story of the bible is that humans great ancestor is dirt!

With what did God create the first human body? The Scriptures say that the Lord formed it from the dust of the ground. In the modern age in which we live, we know that the dust of the earth is composed of about twenty chemicals. Scientists tell us that all twenty of those chemical substances are found in the human body. In the human body, there are more than seventy trillion parts we call cells. And all those parts are woven together and designed to function in perfect harmony. The human body is a miracle!-injil.org

70 trillion cells. I guess evolution got increadibly lucky

Again, you are ridiculously uninformed. Do something about that.

Start by reading where I smack the crap out of you cosmological quibbles:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forums/the_rational_response_squad_radio_show/freethinking_anonymous/julia_sweeny

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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I do not argue evolution

I do not argue evolution much, but I may as well use this forum to a possible advantage to learn more about it. But I do have a question, If Microevolution is adaptation, and macroevolution(the big daddy evolution) is a giant series of microevolutions that alter the species, how do you not believe in evolution? ( I had came up with the evolution is a series of adaptations from a small amount of thinking, I had no idea of the actual names though). Adaptation is proven through observation, experimentation, and modeling. If adaptation is proven, obviously a series of adaptations could occur, and macroevolution would take place(for lack of better terms, I am aware it is not an event). How does our reasonable Mr. Peters not understand this? Unless I am wrong or mistaken, but He should be an older more wise, intelligent, and mature man. How can I(a 15yr. old) grasp a concept he can't? He seems to be stupid also, using terms such as horsey, and moo moo cow. My 6 year old sister has stopped saying horsey for about 2 years. I think evolution is not what we should be worrying about. I think our main issue is poor Mr. Peters mental health and development.

EDIT: EVERYONE REST IN PEACE!!! I found a place for our beloved Mr. Peters. !!!!!
http://www.disabilityworld.org/06-08_04/gov/guatemalamentalhealth.shtml
Now we need to work on fundings to get him over there...


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MrPeters wrote:Im not going

MrPeters wrote:
Im not going anywhere anytime soon. So...deal with it.

It's been 5 days, where ya at?

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Greg wrote:...and

Greg wrote:
...and macroevolution would take place(for lack of better terms, I am aware it is not an event). How does our reasonable Mr. Peters not understand this?

because it has always been erroneously presented to him as an event, so as to ease its discreditation in his still-developing mind.

Greg wrote:

Unless I am wrong or mistaken, but He should be an older more wise, intelligent, and mature man. How can I(a 15yr. old) grasp a concept he can't?

you are mistaken, bud. never think for a minute that because somebody is older than you that they are more intelligent, or even mature. that's just logical fallacy 101. there are 8 year olds out there that are more intelligent than probably 80% of american adults (that's just my own made-up figure, but i'm probably not far off Smiling)

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Macroevolution is just

Macroevolution is just approaching evolution from a smaller magnification, to account for trends at that level. Compare it to terrain mapping: you can zoom in on the individual square meter (that would be like microevolution), or you can zoom out and see the whole state (this is like macroevolution).

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


Sapient
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Sapient wrote:MrPeters

Sapient wrote:
MrPeters wrote:
Im not going anywhere anytime soon. So...deal with it.

It's been 5 days, where ya at?

tick tock tick tock

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duuuude, i told him like 2

duuuude, i told him like 2 weeks ago that nobody was rushing him!
(and also to read the material, and then he responded with a whole asslode of posts illustrating how he hadn't read the material at all...)
...and here you are rushing him! wtf?? Laughing out loud

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Sapient
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DrFear wrote:duuuude, i told

DrFear wrote:
duuuude, i told him like 2 weeks ago that nobody was rushing him!
(and also to read the material, and then he responded with a whole asslode of posts illustrating how he hadn't read the material at all...)
...and here you are rushing him! wtf?? :D

Oh, like the reason he isn't posting is because he's busy reading up on evolution. HA! Puhlease.

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MattShizzle
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If he is he's reading

If he is he's reading Christian books on evolution that distort things.


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Eskimos have thicker skin,

Eskimos have thicker skin, people that live in high altitudes have bigger lungs than the people in the vally.

Sorry that is called evolution , people have adapted to their enviroments. this didn't happen over night you know.

equal rights for everyone.


MrPeters
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Vesigial Organs

Vestige-Vestigial
a degenerate or imperfectly developed organ or structure that has little or no utility, but that in an earlier stage of the individual or in preceding evolutionary forms of the organism performed a useful function.- Webster’s Dictionary

"Ostrich wings are not vestigial because they are useless structures per se, nor are they vestigial simply because they have different functions compared to wings in other birds. Rather, what defines ostrich wings as vestigial is that they are rudimentary wings which are useless as wings.” - talkorigins.org

“The ostrich runs at great speed with wings outspread. It uses its wings for balance. The small wings are used by males in mating displays. They can also provide shade for chicks.” -amswers.com

There is no proof that in an earlier time the ostrich or relatives of the ostrich could fly. In fact, I see a lot of other “flightless” birds that are related to the ostrich. I cant find anywhere online of a bird that could fly that an ostrich evolved from.

All organs on all creatures have a function. Whether the function is known or not is another question. They used to think our appendix was a vestige.

Vestigial organs are not proof of evolution. In fact, there isnt even proof of "vestigial organs" That narrows it down to 28 so called “facts” that I will address one at a time.

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Sapient
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MrPeters wrote: There is no

MrPeters wrote:

There is no proof that in an earlier time the ostrich or relatives of the ostrich could fly. In fact, I see a lot of other “flightless” birds that are related to the ostrich. I cant find anywhere online of a bird that could fly that an ostrich evolved from.

You realize of course that this would be evidence against an intelligent designer, right? Why would an intelligent designer give an animal wings that it can't use?

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Like it said in the

Like it said in the Spaghetti Monster book, maybe God was drunk when he designed the ostrich. Laughing out loud


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Mr. Peters wrote: All organs

Mr. Peters wrote:

All organs on all creatures have a function. Whether the function is known or not is another question. They used to think our appendix was a vestige.

What a horribly stupid statement to make. Yes. Organs have purposes some purposes are meaningless concerning the survival or superiority of a species though.
'Structures' don't necessarily have to have a purpose. Ostrich wings are not organs. They're not 'necessary' except in the running and mating of the BIRD. Regardless of whether the wings are evolving into something or evolved from something they still fit the definition that you provided of vestigial.

Also, regardless of what you have asserted concerning the appendix, that structure(not an organ but a piece of an organ) fits the criteria of vestigial as well in that it is either degenerating or imperfectly developed.

Quote:
Vestigial organs are not proof of evolution. In fact, there isnt even proof of "vestigial organs" That narrows it down to 28 so called “facts” that I will address one at a time.

Your statement is not a 'fact', Mr. Peters. You simply disregard the examples giving proof of vestigial structures and organs. You have failed to 'address' the fact that there are millions of examples concerning vestigial organs and structures in the present and past creatures that exist or have existed on this planet.

My favorite, most recent example, is that of the tiktaalik rosea which is fish(?) fossil found in devonian rock that links fish to amphibians and/or reptiles. Its 'fins' were found to be transistional appendages in that there were joints forming from straight bones. Please, don't take my word. Google-ing the name only brings up 726 various other reports and pictures. I haven't seen it(the fossil) in person yet but would like to soon.

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