Are some people just a lost cause?

theevolvedone
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Are some people just a lost cause?

I really have exhausted everything that I can think of to make a certain person who I really care for see the absurdities of religion.  If anyone has any advice on how to respond to this email please let me know.  This was a response back from an email that I wrote her.  I have to say its a first time for me to come out of the closet to a few people, and now I really have witnessed first hand of what religion does to people's minds.  It is just so sad to hear someone say to me I dont want to know the truth. Thats about what this email says.  Does any one else think that some people are just a lost cause or just impossible to reach?  I guess i was naive to think that because of her relatively young age she could be changed.  I know things dont happen over night...I guess I can attest to that.  Peace everyone.

 

Her Email:

"I was angry at the time because I felt like you were telling me that my faith comes from tradition and not from my heart. You also made it sound like just because I have no interest in philosophy that I don't know how to really think for myself. I don't want alternate ways of thinking like you do. I am happy with who I am and how I feel. I am happy with my faith and the way I think. I know what truth is in my life without all that philosophy stuff. I am and will always be a firm believer in God no matter who or what is said to me. It is not because I don't want to learn new things ..... just not the stuff you do apparently. I just mean this is how I feel regardless of who is right. I don't want you to be mad at me but I just cannot handle hearing about all the stuff you read."

Doubt is the root of all wisdom. - Unknown

Knowing will come from the practice of understanding - Myself


Zombie
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Sounds like my

Sounds like my sister-in-law.

I think there are some people you simply can't help, but then again I lack patience with some people so maybe you would get better results.

Hey, if you keep banging your head against the wall, you might eventually knock through it. 

Morte alla tyrannus et dei


Loc
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Some,or actually alot,of

Some,or actually alot,of theists can seem too far gone to help.I know just how frustrating it is to try show these people an inkling of sense.But all you can do is try.I think if you can  just get them over the first  monumental hurdle of just questioning what they've been taught, the rest will all fall apart pretty quickly.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


WhiteManRunning
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Losing, or gaining, faith

Losing, or gaining, faith is not something that someone else can do for you. Its something every person has to do for themselves. No atheist will ever be able to convince a christian that their religion is BS simply by giving them a really good argument, and no christian will ever be able to convince an atheist that god actually exists. However, that doesnt mean your wasting your time. Sometimes simply explaining your point of view will get the wheels rolling in their head, and eventually they will change their mind.

Now here's the part that might piss you off: Your doing the exact thing that I hate about christians. Your trying to force your views on someone else. Or at least thats the impression I got from reading that email. The absolute WORST thing you can do is try to force your views on someone else. That will only make their beliefs stronger.

If she brings up the topic again, give her your reasons for thinking the way you do, but DONT say anything along the lines of "you should think this way too", or "I dont understand how you cant see that", etc... All that will accomplish is make her feel dumb for thinking the way she does, and she'll get angry at you for it. Then its a lost cause. She thinks the way she does because it feels right, and their is no logical way to change that feeling.

Remember one thing, if you love someone unconditionally, you dont judge them. Ever. You accept their strengths, and their faults, even if those faults drive you nuts.

"I may be going to hell in a rocketship, but at least I get to ride in a rocketship. You have to climb those damn stairs. " - Katie Volker


Mr. Atheist (not verified)
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There is no doubt that a lot

There is no doubt that a lot of people are lost causes.  A big part of the goal isn't neccessary changing our culture, it's changing the culture for future generations.  Removing religion from the world doesn't happen 1 person at a time, it happens 1 generation at a time if we think about it on a large scale.  That is why this is a fight that will seem futile and we need to keep in mind that it's worth it not for us, but for our children and children's children.  It is likely that we will not see a true global effect of this movement in our lifetime and we just have to realize and accept that.  But perhaps in our old age we will read statistics of religious followings in youth and we can look back and be proud that the trend is starting as it already has.


Kevin Khoo
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Not too sound too familiar

Not too sound too familiar but does it really matter that she sees your point of view? As you have said you care for her so I think it shouldn't matter what her point of view is unless detrimental to your relationship with her, even that you have to reason as what level would the impairment be.

I've tried to argue facts with people but very rarely does anything good come out of it. You're fighting a belief system that is based on faith. That already by default excludes any form of reason or scientific proof you could ever hope to muster.

What about the argument itself? Did your words in your letter have a sense of ridicule or over bearing in them. Sometimes the way words are written plays as much of a role as the content that is displayed. She could have mistaken your genuine intent for a snide comment somewhere. Even verbal communication runs into this same problem now and again.

I suppose there are many ways of solving this but I'd take the pacifist route. If your relationship with her is what you would like to maintain I suggest you do not try to convert her. Enjoy her company for what it is. If she changes it would be on her own terms. Of course if she tried to force her beliefs on you than I suppose ...... RUN! You could fight back but that would be wasting breath. Judging form her reply she does not have the minerals for a factual argument.


theevolvedone
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Thanks everyone for your

Thanks everyone for your words I'll definately think about them.  To Whiteman I wasnt trying to force anything on her.  It began with her basically telling me she didnt understand atheism.  I tried to put things in words why I changed not why she should change.  She may have just taken it the wrong way. 

Doubt is the root of all wisdom. - Unknown

Knowing will come from the practice of understanding - Myself


Renee Obsidianwords
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This actually sounds like

This actually sounds like my sister, except she isn't struggling with a god belief, she is struggling with being an alcoholic.

When I approach her about her reliance on alcohol she responds "you are a prude( I rarely drink) and you wouldn't know what it is like to have alcohol take the 'edge off'."

After I let her know that I made my own decision to not use alcohol as a crutch, based on what it did to our father, she responds : "I am happy with the way my life is going (divorcing, no job, living at the bar) and I would go crazy if I had a life like yours, going to work, staying home, not going out...reading (LOL)"

Anyway, the 'song of the addict' as i like to call it sounds very similar to that of your friend. I suppose you could say that theism IS an addiction. But I am not a psychologist, nor do I play one on tv Smiling

-Renee

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/


deludedgod
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I find her response absurd

I find her response absurd and immensely disturbing. But I would like to see what you wrote that triggered such a response...

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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HC Grindon
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Sounds like my wife.  She

Sounds like my wife.  She was starting to doubt her beliefs, but got really depressed.  Now she's back to deluding herself. 

She also believes that I never truly had faith because I didn't feel the "loss" she was feeling when she doubted her own faith...a tired argument I hear all the time from other xtians.

Some people just can't kick their blue-pill addiction.  *sigh* 


theevolvedone
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Deluded I'll post the email

Deluded I'll post the email later. HC Grindon that's interesting. I dont mean to get too personal but has the problem of the atheist theist mix ever been a problem in your relationship. If so could you share how you dealt with it? Yeah i agree with the matrix reference. I wonder if that is what the Wachowski brothers intended. I mean the whole "prison for you mind", "world pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth" bit. Sounds like they might be atheists.  Thanks everyone for your input, this is really a great community with wonderful people.

Doubt is the root of all wisdom. - Unknown

Knowing will come from the practice of understanding - Myself


evilsatan
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Did this chick ask for our

Did this chick ask for our opinion or advice? Most people don't want to be told how to think no matter what the situation. From the sound of that email she doesn't sound like someone worth knowing anyway.


HC Grindon
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theevolvedone wrote: HC

theevolvedone wrote:
HC Grindon that's interesting. I dont mean to get too personal but has the problem of the atheist theist mix ever been a problem in your relationship. If so could you share how you dealt with it?

It's only a problem if we get into a serious discussion about it.  Fortunately, she's not a fundy and doesn't try to convert me.  I don't push her either, but I do have difficulty repressing my contempt for religion, so those instances where we have problems are usually the result of some sarcastic remark I make.

 


QuasarX
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I think every theist has

I think every theist has their own reasons for being a theist which they may or may not consciously understand. Those that don't question their beliefs are likely to fall into the category of not consciously understanding their beliefs. This person seems to have no interest in objective truth, and wants to believe what she believes whether it's right or wrong. So, there's probably no way you can rationally convince her that she's wrong. If she's not willing to examine the reasons for her beliefs, you can't convince her to change them. I think the only way to get her to examine her beliefs is to get her to articulate them clearly without feeling that she's defending them. If you want to try to do that, ask her to help you understand what she believes and why... get her to try to convert you, and ask lots of questions. Her decision seems to be emotionally rooted, so you would probably run into a lot of situations where she doesn't immediately know the reasons for her feelings... but if you can get her thinking about them, she might be able to understand them more.  It would take a lot of time and patience, but if that doesn't work... there's probably nothing you can do.