Sum of physical forces?
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I've been reading the forums some. I've noticed a lot of highly intelligent individuals here. I thought one of you might give me some direction or know how to solve this. It has always seemed to me that our bodies are indeed the sum of physical forces as I think someone put it. That idea seems correct because if they are disrupted we are no more. I have been plagued by a difference that I cant quite put my finger on. If we had this "machine" that could look at every atom and elementary particle in our bodies and immediately make an exact duplicate of ourselves in a different position in a room why is it that I see things from this consciousness or perspective as to opposed to my exact twin who is in no way any different physically than me. This twin would retain all memories, behaviors etc of the original. Even though there is this physical difference some other difference remains. Where exactly is that difference? I guess I could see that an exact separate process of physical forces exist but thats not quite what im asking. I guess im really asking why am I in this body as opposed to the other?
Doubt is the root of all wisdom. - Unknown
Knowing will come from the practice of understanding - Myself
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if i understand you correctly, you are asking:
if we could replicate a human being on the atomic level, would the replica be the same as the original?
In my opinion, yes. If that is your question, i can go into more detail, if that is not your question, can you explain better please?
I understand what you are asking, theevolvedone.
I've often thought the same type of question.
Why am I this consciousness? Why do I (the inner me) exist in this one body?
I suppose that question is what led people to assume there was something immaterial within ourselves. Like a spirit or soul.
I've come to the conclusion that it is an illusion. Life to an individual is a deception.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
adam_antics read Watcher's post. Also watcher or anyone else who thinks this can you give me a why you conlude that.
Doubt is the root of all wisdom. - Unknown
Knowing will come from the practice of understanding - Myself
I am still not quite sure what the exact question is, here are the two I interpreted:
1. Why am I who I am?
2. Do we have souls?
For 1, If you were someone else, you would still be you (due to relativity).
For 2, The burden of proof would be on the person that is asserting there is more to the human being than the sum of it's parts (such as a spirit or soul).
I don't see the dilemma is this. When you say, "why is it that I see things from this consciousness or perspective as to opposed to my exact twin who is in no way any different physically than me?" you use 'I' to mean the physical entity experiencing from a particular perspective. In this scenario whichever entity is experiencing from whichever particular perspective would be a particular 'I'. From the perspective of the 'I' from which the copy was made 'you' would still be 'I' experiencing from that perspective. From the perspective of the 'I' that is the copy, 'you' would be 'I' experiencing from another perspective. You shouldn't expect that either one of these entities could experience from the other perspective as they are not the 'I' experiencing from that perspective.
If I were to make an exact copy of an apple with this machine I would have two apples even though they are materially the same. They would occupy different points in spacetime and therefor be seperate entities. Though they may be identical apples, they are not the same apple. If a worm was about to bore into the original apple a moment before I made the copy, I would not expect that the worm would bore into the other apple, or both apples, immediately after the copy was made because there is only one apple that occupies the perspective of 'about to have a worm bore into me'.
I understand that many people have asked this type of question, I just can't understand where they find the confusion to arise.
The difference is that from the moment the copy was made experience would differ as perspective would differ. Both would be 'you' from a particular perspective but neither would be the other.
Because that body is 'you' just as to the other entity, the copy, that body would be 'itself'. You can both only be 'I' from the perspective of the entity experiencing.
Maybe I've just never been able to understand what people are asking when they ask this question. Is my answer relevant to what you were asking?
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
Let me try to explain what he's thinking. We can all read about how the brain works. About the neurons firing and synapses and all that. Well it makes it sound all...mechanical in a way.
This is really a philosophical type question guys. lol So go with me here.
The "me" or our own personal "consciousness" seems somehow divorced from that. I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying it seems that way to some people.
It's like the "me" is driving the machine that is my brain.
What's that old movie? Heck there were several that followed this theme. Funny enough Kirk Cameron was in one of them I think.
Ever see one of those shows where the daughter and the mother switched bodies? Or the son and father switched bodies?
Now obviously the brains weren't switched. Just the consciousness. Like two people switched trucks. Yet somehow, even though they are occuping another brain they still retain their personality and memories. Superficially that seems like it makes sense.
But after thinking about it, it doesn't.
We aren't really some immaterial entity inhabiting our brains. We are our brains. So that "me", that's an illusion really. We are nothing more than our brains.
That's why I say that our existence, the "me", is a deception.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
This will go pretty much in the same direction as Watcher.
Since consciousness is not a ghostly substance that inhabits our body but a manifestation of brain activity :
2 brains = 2 distinct manifestations of consciousness
This is like asking the question : I have 2 identical lighters but I don't understand why each of them produce it's own flame. Why is this flame coming out of this lighter instead of the other one that is in no way any different physically from this one ?
Absurd question isn't it ?
Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com
I'll diverge from the conversation here for a moment.
This is an issue that I think would be important to discuss but maybe not in this post, anyways, here's the thing:
I would like for us (atheist) to stop referring to our existence as "just this or just that". Sentences like "We are nothing more than our brains" is understandably a huge turn off for theists :
- Fuck that ! You want me to let go of my divine origins to embrace a pile of shit ? Yeah right !
I know that you didn't meant it in this way Watcher, but this is how we talk and this is how theists perceive what we say.
I think that we have to change our way of talking if we want to make theists realize that we are not from out-of-this-world and that being so is not something that diminishes our place or "value" in this universe.
Our brains, for instance, are the most complex and mysterious structures that we are aware of in the entire 26 billion light-years across observable universe, and I think that this fact alone deserves, at least, a little bit of respect.
We should celebrate the fact that we are our brains instead of saying that we are nothing more than our brains.
Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com
Shut up brain! Don't make me yank you out of that body you are controlling!
I agree that we should not give theists reasons to hate us, or make statements for the sole purpose of making them mad at us. I do not agree that we should keep quiet about the truth or the facts. As watcher said, we are nothing more than our brains, it is true in a mental sense (we of course require heart, lungs, food, etc to keep that brain alive), but the idea he stated is correct. Until we have some damn good evidence there is something more to us than our body, we are just that, and we should not "be quiet" about that.
What are you talking about ?
Have you read what I wrote ?
I never said that we should keep quiet about reality ! And I would never say a stupid thing like that !
I said that we should change our way of talking about reality (vocabulary wise) not to change reality itself. Huge difference here !
When you say "just a brain" you give the impression that a brain is nothing more than a simple piece of shitty hardware and that's where the turn off is.
Now...
Re-read what I wrote because you obviously didn't understood anything !
And if you still think I said that we should shut up... Tell me, maybe I wasn't clear.
Here are some example of what we have to say versus what we are saying :
"We are our brains" and not "We are just our brains"
"We are not just some spirit in a body" and not "We are nothing more than a brain"
Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com
Dawkins was funny... But Tyson is right : "It's the facts plus the sensitivity when convolved together that creates impact."
Theists doesn't want to feel like shitty piece of hardware, hell, I don't want to feel like that either... So maybe that we should change our approach so that we will be able to touch the sensitivity of people i.e. not making them feel like shit but making them realize that we are a wonderful product of nature instead (which we are).
Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com
I understand what you are saying. And I agree. Yes, the "me" is a mental construct within my brain. However the marvel that is existence....well that is more humbling and awe inspiring than anything I can imagine.
Religion has no chance against the majesty of true reality, of humanities and earth's history. Imagine! Iron is an important component of our physiology. Iron. Iron is formed in the heart of a star that goes supernova! We are formed of space dust.
We are the universe. The universe is us.
Us. The only creature that we really know of that opens it's eyes looks up, looks around, and is stunned by the majesty of this existence, this world, this universe. Our beautiful planet. Like a gem floating in space. Our blue oceans and green forests, animals of such diversity...it takes your breath away.
And to know that we are part of all of this...in such an intricate way. That we are animals. Not some game keeper placed in charge of animals by some mythological diety. We are part of the animal kingdom! Scraping and clawing our way through millions of years. Our ancestors are true nobility. Because they survived.
Against all odds they survived.
I was raised religious. I know the euphoria from involving yourself in your religion. Yes, I remember it well.
It is a poor and beggardly example compared to the feeling that you get when you realize what is truly going on.
That this is an enormous universe of immense destruction. This is a tiny planet that is barely survivable for life to exist. And that humanity, us Homo Sapiens, have, beyond all chances, survived and thrived.
That we can stand here for a few brief years and marvel. Eyes open in shock at all of it.
I am constantly in awe of our existence. I pity those that are blinded by religion and miss all there is to witness. Those who despise evolution, the real history of the universe, our familial ties to our fellow animals.
I hate how religion marginalizes humanity and demonizes our existence. Religion is a slave master that humanity is afraid to leave. So many people sit in intellectual squalor out of fear of being free.
Makes me sick just to think on it.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
While I agree with that, in all fairness, that's not all of what religion does.
Religion, for a lot of people, provides an easy way to feel special without having to think.
So it should be part of our mandate, if we are to convince people to leave religion, to offer them an alternative to this warm feeling of being "special".
Reality (whatever that is) not only can provide this feeling but can provide it much better than religion.
Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com
But we are special, Girl Dancing. We are incredibly special. Of all possible humans that can possibly exist we are the tiny, tiny, tiny minority that does exist. That has the opportunity to live. To witness everything.
We were not picked from the beginning of time to exist. How mundane and boring is that? No matter what we would be here? Pbbbhttt. That's what religion throws onto humanity.
The much more fascinating and realistic view is that we are here as a product of chance and opportunity. How rare a flame we represent. A leaf blown another direction by the wind in ancient times could conceivably have wiped out entire civilizations. Special? We have no inkling of how special our existence is.
Religion dilutes that reality. Poisons it. It worked great thousands of years ago when humanity did not have the knowledge we have now. We must realize that religion is what it is. An outdated, antiquated mindset that exhalted us in the past, but robs us in the present.
It's time to cast off the shackles of such primitive thought.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
I completely agree with that, you don't have to explain that to me. This is exactly my point ! That is why we have to stop saying things like :
"We are not special"
"We are nothing but this..."
"We are nothing but that..."
This type of degrading, demoralizing and uselessly humble type of speech will not attract anybody.
---
We have to start saying that we are special !
We are all of this !
We are all of that !
Simply because we are all of these things.
Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com
A kindred soul. GDIO if we ever meet IRL I demand an enthusiastic french kiss. However yucky us males are. hehe.
You are nothing but awesome in my eyes.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
lol
I already told you that you were sexy... How do you equate that with yucky ?
We'll see if I'm drunk enough when we'll meet ! lol
Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com
I'm going to take a shot at this. Sorry I didn't have time to read the other replys. Your assuming that you are the matter that you are made of. This is not true you are instead the cause and effect relationship of the beginning of the universe. You are more like a wave moving through a pool. If you go back 7 years ago all the matter in your body would have been completely diffrent atoms.