Am i deluded or ?

dave805
dave805's picture
Posts: 82
Joined: 2007-12-27
User is offlineOffline
Am i deluded or ?

 

First off a statement.. I do not believe in god. I believe people who believe in god are brainwashed morons.

 

That said i am about to make a confession. While i do not believe in a god etc.. I have a hard time bringing myself to do anything that might jeopardize my position in a possible afterlife.  After some self analysis i came to the conclusion that i fear the possibility that i might be wrong on a subconscious level. 

So does this make me a hypocrite ? Consciously i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their is no god their is no heaven or hell. Yet subconsciously i am afraid that i might be wrong. (Is this normal? ) 

Mehh.. I KNOW !! there is no god but why the hell is the doubt there?  Maybe it has something to do with my religious upbringing ? I do not know. Just that it bothers me to some extent. (Obviously enough to make a post about it..)

 Maybe it is just my human nature showing up in my subconscious. Wich would make sense because it is human nature to want to believe in something greater then ourselves. 


I sure as hell ain't some theist or bible thumper.. 

comments on this would be appreciated 

 

 


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Quote: So does this make me

Quote:
So does this make me a hypocrite ?

No.  It makes you honest.  You haven't said whether you were raised religious or not.  I'd wager that you were.  Many people who leave theism spend months, years, or even decades trying to rid themselves of the emotional baggage.  

You do realize that even if there is a god, and even if there is a hell, your odds of picking the right one are infintessimal, right?  In a way, it's so improbable that you will choose correctly, you're pretty much damned -- if there is a hell.

Remember, there are many, many more options than Jehovah or Allah or Jesus.

Maybe god is evil, and has played a joke on us.  Only the people who disbelieve in god will go to heaven.

Maybe god is evil, and nobody goes to heaven.  Everybody goes to hell because he loves inflicting pain.

Maybe there are two rival gods, and each gets lottery tickets to decide who goes where.

Maybe there are three gods.... four gods... five thousand.

Maybe Satan is actually god.  After all, the victors write history.  Maybe God and Satan were equals, but god, the evil one of the two, snookered Satan and has us all tricked.

You see, you can never know!  Even if all the religions look great, you have no way of knowing whether or not god would even want you to know about him.  All the gods might be here to trick us.

 

Quote:
Yet subconsciously i am afraid that i might be wrong. (Is this normal? )

As normal as battered wives who still love their husbands, or kidnapping victims who develop empathy to their captors.  Yes.  It's normal, but it's a result of trauma.

 

Quote:
Mehh.. I KNOW !! there is no god but why the hell is the doubt there?  Maybe it has something to do with my religious upbringing ?

I suspected as much.  Just so you know, I began responding before reading your whole post.  I really was guessing earlier.   The fact that I guessed it should tell you a lot.

 

Quote:
Wich would make sense because it is human nature to want to believe in something greater then ourselves.

This isn't certain.  We've only had a viable alternative to god (evolution) for a century (ish).  We have no idea what humans will be like after we've had several centuries to digest the reality that we were not created.  God belief might become quaint and archaic.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Jolt
Jolt's picture
Posts: 69
Joined: 2007-06-07
User is offlineOffline
dave805 wrote:

dave805 wrote:
I believe people who believe in god are brainwashed morons.

Brainwashed: definitely. Morons: just like anyone else. 

Quote:
there is no god but why the hell is the doubt there?  Maybe it has something to do with my religious upbringing ?

Unfortunately, I also grew up in a religious family.  Even after I moved out, I had the same feeling...what if I'm wrong???  What parents do is absolutely brainwashing and that doesn't just go away with a snap of the fingers.  I think for me it was just time and thinking everything over.  Eventually the fear eased up, until what little fear remained was gone. 

Readiness to answer all questions is the infallible sign of stupidity. Saul Bellow, Herzog


dave805
dave805's picture
Posts: 82
Joined: 2007-12-27
User is offlineOffline
"Yes.  It's normal, but

"Yes.  It's normal, but it's a result of trauma."

 

(In my intro post a few weeks ago i stated my Mother used to be a NUN.) But that post along with my entire account at the time got deleted by the server crash.

 Trauma can be defined in many ways.. And one of my biggest issues with religion is the fact it puts fear into children. And used as a tool of fear against children. 

It is interesting though the way you put it.. Definitly broadened my thinking process on this issue.  

Until your post i had not specifically tied the two together. At least not in connection with myself.

Thank you for your reply mate Definitely has given me some things to think further on.  


HC Grindon
High Level DonorModerator
Posts: 198
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
I'm right there with you,

I'm right there with you, Dave. The residual "born-again" xtian in me still lurks around my subconscious, occasionally poking it's head out to provoke the following conversation:

 

INT - HCG'S GROGGY, EARLY MORNING HEAD

VOICE IN HEAD: "What if you are wrong?"

ME: "What do you mean Jessica Alba? We just had the most spectacular sex ever...your words hon. How could that be wrong?"

VOICE IN HEAD: "Fornication fantasies about Jessica Alba? You, sir, will BURN IN HELL!"

ME: "Oh, it's you again. Well, I guess it's a good thing I don't believe in 'hell' anymore, isn't it?"

IRRATIONAL ME (aka Voice In Head): "But what if you're WRONG!!"

RATIONAL ME: "Sorry pal, gonna need some rock-solid evidence first. Extraordinary claims requi..."

IRRATIONAL ME: "No, no, don't start quoting Sagan again...all you need is Faith to know the Truth!"

RATIONAL ME: "Why are you speaking to me in italics AND capitalizing the words "faith" and "truth"? Oh, yeah, xtians love to hijack the dictionary, history books, politics, and high school science curriculums...why not hijack font attributes?"

IRRATIONAL ME: (starts quoting scripture)

RATIONAL ME: "WTF?!? You interrupted my sex dream with Jessica for this shit?!? Get the fuck out of my head!"

HCG'S WIFE: "Who the HELL is 'Jessica'?"

 

:^)

 


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
    Personally I think it

    Personally I think it just a reaction to your naturally occuring fear of death, you know about religious ideas of the after life, and as humans we fear death and the idea of never existing (not everyone but the majority do). I think that hardest thing to do is accept death, we all know were going to die, but not everyone accepts that we are going to die. I can say I accept death, but growing up, yeah I feared it, and I wondered if there was an afterlife, but I pondered and pondered all the possiblities, all the religions, eventurally i just said fuck it all, either I am right or I am wrong, but I can't live my life thinking what if...I won't do anything because I wouldn't know which after life to worry about.


pariahjane
pariahjane's picture
Posts: 1595
Joined: 2006-05-06
User is offlineOffline
dave805 - What you're

dave805 - What you're thinking is perfectly normal.  If it makes you feel any better I never had any religious upbringing and there were still occasions when I questioned whether something was wrong with me because I just couldn't believe in god. 

God belief is everywhere - to go against the norm sometimes feels weird, even if it is the right thing to do.

If god takes life he's an indian giver


Kazuya
Posts: 21
Joined: 2007-11-22
User is offlineOffline
dave805 wrote: That said i

dave805 wrote:

That said i am about to make a confession. While i do not believe in a god etc.. I have a hard time bringing myself to do anything that might jeopardize my position in a possible afterlife. After some self analysis i came to the conclusion that i fear the possibility that i might be wrong on a subconscious level.

So does this make me a hypocrite ? Consciously i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their is no god their is no heaven or hell. Yet subconsciously i am afraid that i might be wrong. (Is this normal? )

What you describe makes you a normal person. Personally, I disagree with the people who said that this is part of an inflicted trauma. Considering the possibility, that your point of view might be wrong is exactly what distinguishes you from religious fanatics. So you are not a hypocrite, you are not damaged in some way. Considering the possibility of being wrong is exactly what the great philosophers of the enlightment era were propagating in order to become a mature person.

 

What you are doing is simply called critical thinking, that's all.


aiia
Superfan
aiia's picture
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2006-09-12
User is offlineOffline
dave805 wrote: I have a

dave805 wrote:
I have a hard time bringing myself to do anything that might jeopardize my position in a possible afterlife. 
Death is the central theme of superstition and religious organizations thrive on fear.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


Reality Fan
Reality Fan's picture
Posts: 29
Joined: 2007-08-14
User is offlineOffline
Kazuya wrote: What you

Kazuya wrote:
What you describe makes you a normal person. Personally, I disagree with the people who said that this is part of an inflicted trauma. Considering the possibility, that your point of view might be wrong is exactly what distinguishes you from religious fanatics. So you are not a hypocrite, you are not damaged in some way. Considering the possibility of being wrong is exactly what the great philosophers of the enlightment era were propagating in order to become a mature person.

What you are doing is simply called critical thinking, that's all.

I disagree.  Critical thinking does not involve fear and adjusting our actions just in case we are wrong about a punitive god's (in whose existance the OP doesn't believe) judgement resulting in being punished in the afterlife (which the OP doesn't believe even exists).  His logical mind knows it's bullshit, but the fear remains.  It is not a rational response.  That is the result of hard to dislodge fears, presumably planted by others.

I'd say Hambydammit had it spot on.

Susan


Jolt
Jolt's picture
Posts: 69
Joined: 2007-06-07
User is offlineOffline
Kazuya wrote: Considering

Kazuya wrote:
Considering the possibility of being wrong is exactly what the great philosophers of the enlightment era were propagating in order to become a mature person.

There's a big difference between consiously considering that you might be wrong and unwillingly doubting what you hold to be true. "Damaged", "Brainwashed", and "Traumatized" might be exteme words to describe this, but I think everyone can agree that this is bullshit that no one should have to carry around.

Readiness to answer all questions is the infallible sign of stupidity. Saul Bellow, Herzog


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Kazuya wrote: Personally, I

Kazuya wrote:
Personally, I disagree with the people who said that this is part of an inflicted trauma.

I think perhaps you misunderstand. Considering the possibility of a god or hell is not the result of trauma. However, most people who were not indoctrinated into religion will immediately dismiss the possibility because it's so utterly contrary to reason and, frankly, borderline insane.

Those who have been indoctrinated, and were taught from a very early age that hell is real have a lot of residual "trauma" that simply wouldn't happen if they hadn't been taught that faith is a virtue. Faith is not a virtue. In fact, it's the only thing that allows people to seriously consider hell a possibility.

Quote:
Considering the possibility, that your point of view might be wrong is exactly what distinguishes you from religious fanatics. So you are not a hypocrite, you are not damaged in some way.

I speak from experience, as do the other core members, and many of our regular members. It was trauma, and for many years, I was damaged goods. It took me most of a decade to rid myself of the lingering issues. Before you continue with this line of thought, please consider that I have a rather extensive background in psychology and have witnessed this firsthand many times besides experiencing it for myself.

Religious indoctrination does damage people. It's up to Dave to decide whether it's damaged him or not, but part of the beauty of being an atheist is that you can look yourself in the mirror and admit that you have been hurt without having to cover it up for the sake of appearances.

I did not learn to be "the real me" until I learned to admit the damage that was caused by my religious upbringing. It's nobody's business here, but trust me. There was damage.

Quote:
Considering the possibility of being wrong is exactly what the great philosophers of the enlightment era were propagating in order to become a mature person.

And admitting weakness is, too. We are animals... nothing more. Animals react to stimuli, whether harmful or helpful. There is no shame in being hurt. It is the mark of an intellectually mature human to accept both the good and the bad with open eyes.

I hope you don't feel like I'm coming down on you. To be honest, you hit a bit of a nerve with me. I experienced exactly the same kind of thing Dave is describing, and trust me. It was because of trauma. I started out kind of mad at you for presuming to tell Dave there wasn't trauma. I've seen rape victims who were told the same things -- "Look, you were on a date with him, and you just freaked a little bit. You don't need counselling. You just need to relax and let it go." (I've also seen that strategy work exactly 0% of the time, by the way.)

I don't want to go the other way, either, and tell Dave that he definitely did suffer trauma -- this is his battle, not mine. However, an open mind includes both possibilities, not the preconceived notion that everything is fine. If everything is fine, why is there mental stress?

If it seemed I was saying that there is definitely trauma when one has these feelings, that was not my intent. However, in psychology, where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Kazuya
Posts: 21
Joined: 2007-11-22
User is offlineOffline
Reality Fan wrote: I

Reality Fan wrote:
I disagree. Critical thinking does not involve fear and adjusting our actions just in case we are wrong about a punitive god's (in whose existance the OP doesn't believe) judgement resulting in being punished in the afterlife (which the OP doesn't believe even exists). His logical mind knows it's bullshit, but the fear remains. It is not a rational response. That is the result of hard to dislodge fears, presumably planted by others.

I'd say Hambydammit had it spot on.

Well, that Daves response is not rational does not qualify his behavior for anything, because the human is not a rational being. A lot of people who are sure that ghosts don't exist would have a problem with going to a graveyard at midnight.

 

Jolt wrote:

There's a big difference between consiously considering that you might be wrong and unwillingly doubting what you hold to be true. "Damaged", "Brainwashed", and "Traumatized" might be exteme words to describe this, but I think everyone can agree that this is bullshit that no one should have to carry around.

Carrying it is not really the word I would use, but I honestly do think that we should think about it. Don't get me wrong, the assumption that there is a god or a hell seems ridiculous to me too. And I definetly agree with you, when you say it is bullshit. So why should we even think about it? For a very simple reason. If we don't allow our own belief to be questioned, then we are in fact practising another religion. At least I couldn't see a difference anymore, because the basic statements between atheism and christianity for example would be:

There is a god, don't question it.

There is no god, don't question it.

And that would be the whole difference. Having no dogma means to me, that you can question anything anytime, including your own beliefs and values. This is for me the normal state of having no dogma. And that's my point.

 

Hambydammit wrote:

Kazuya wrote:
Personally, I disagree with the people who said that this is part of an inflicted trauma.

I think perhaps you misunderstand. Considering the possibility of a god or hell is not the result of trauma. However, most people who were not indoctrinated into religion will immediately dismiss the possibility because it's so utterly contrary to reason and, frankly, borderline insane.

Okay, maybe I should introduce myself then. I'm from East-Germany and I am a former citizen of the GDR. In the corner where I live, the percentage of atheists is around 80 to 90%. And I was raised without any religious guidance by my parents. I did not attend communion or anything like that, and I never went to church. So in short, I experienced the complete opposite of Dave. But even I have sometimes unwilling doubts about my behavior. So, by having a brief look at my "anamnesis". Do I suffer from a trauma? I don't think so.

Hambydammit wrote:
I speak from experience, as do the other core members, and many of our regular members. It was trauma, and for many years, I was damaged goods. It took me most of a decade to rid myself of the lingering issues. Before you continue with this line of thought, please consider that I have a rather extensive background in psychology and have witnessed this firsthand many times besides experiencing it for myself.

I admit, that my background in psychology is far from being extensiv and I assume that your level of education in this particular case is superior to mine. However, I do have some thoughts about it and an argument from authority falls to short for me. So I have some questions and I hope you can give me some answers.

The first question has actually nothing to do with the topic and is just pure curiosity. Do you favour Behaviorism or Cognitivism?

My second question is, do you think that Daves post is enough to give a qualified diagnosis. I'm not regarding the difficulties of a tele diagnosis, I'm refering to the amount of information that can be gained from the first post.

My third question is, could it be that you are projecting your own experiences (regarding religion) onto Dave?

And my fourth and last question is: What qualifies Daves described behavior as a symptom of a trauma?

 

Hambydammit wrote:
I hope you don't feel like I'm coming down on you. To be honest, you hit a bit of a nerve with me. I experienced exactly the same kind of thing Dave is describing, and trust me. It was because of trauma. I started out kind of mad at you for presuming to tell Dave there wasn't trauma. I've seen rape victims who were told the same things -- "Look, you were on a date with him, and you just freaked a little bit. You don't need counselling. You just need to relax and let it go." (I've also seen that strategy work exactly 0% of the time, by the way.)

No, I don't feel like you are coming down on me. I really appreciate it, that we have an open and civilized discussion about it. It wasn't my intent to upset somebody. All I did was giving my point of view, because:

dave805 wrote:
comments on this would be appreciated

Hambydammit wrote:
However, an open mind includes both possibilities, not the preconceived notion that everything is fine. If everything is fine, why is there mental stress?

If it seemed I was saying that there is definitely trauma when one has these feelings, that was not my intent. However, in psychology, where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

Of course, I could be terribly wrong and Dave suffers terribly. I don't denie that there is mental stress. But it seems pretty normal to me for the given situation. I mean, there is no doubt that there is a conflict, but that alone doesn't mean anything. We all have conflicts, minor and major ones. So unless Dave doesn't write that this whole thing prevents him from sleeping or something like that, I can't see a problem. I mean, he describes having thoughts.

 


dave805
dave805's picture
Posts: 82
Joined: 2007-12-27
User is offlineOffline
  First i would like to

 

First i would like to thank all of you who responded.

Thank you

Secondly the isue of trauma..

"Post-cult trauma, the intense emotional problems that some members of cults and new religious movements experience upon disaffection and disaffiliation"

I would say that wanting to kill oneself due to the relization that their is no god and nothing in the after life would fit this definition.

And Yes i was at one point suicidal.. That said after a long time of self analisys i have pulled myself out of the emotional hole i was in. So you guys don't have to worry about me offing myself. Smiling

Reading your replys has given me some new things to think about. In my life i was brought up in a verry religious house. (How can your foster mother be a ex nun and not bring you up in the faith) ?

I think my main issue is i figured out at somewhat a early age that the entire GOD thing was total bullshit. And yet at the same time was constantly being told i would go to hell if i did X Y Z and at some level i still believe what i was told. (Subconciously)

Even today i have mental issues that haunt me because of my upbringing And i fear that these issues will never go away. No matter how long i question the irationality of them.

To say that religion does no harm to those they indocternate is wrong. To be honest the reason why i have verry strong hatefull feelings towords religious people is because they push their fear mongering onto their children.

I just (Right now) came to the conclusion that my religious upbringing had much more of a effect on me then i actualy realized...

It is interesting that at this point in my life i am only just now seeing how much fear and intolerance my religious upbringing has carried over into the rest of my life. Even years after i gave up the proverbial god ghost delusion.

Seriusly.. If you look at it the way i am atm Religion = Fear, Intolerance.. Look at how much fear and intolerance of others RULES our everyday life. Not to mention our global life.

 

Lol...... Pardon me for cutting this short.. Or not so short but i have a few things i need to think about before continuing this.

 

Edit...

"So unless Dave doesn't write that this whole thing prevents him from sleeping or something like that, I can't see a problem."

This issue .. At one point in the not too distant past was PART of the reason why i almost blew my head off.

It is a long story , but let me boil it down a little bit.

1. 5 years ago my father died from cancer. A cancer that if it had been caught in time could have been treated. (His doctor refused to send him to a specialist. Untill he finaly went to one on his own)

2. over the next year and 1/2 after my father died 7 family members and friends passed away suddenly.

3. My upbringing states that people go to heaven or hell when you die. And yet all evidence dictates to me that their is no such places. 

This has lead to a major issue in my life. Where i ask questions. Some of those questions allmost lead me to do something totaly stupid.

1. What is the point of doing anything if everything we do is meaningless ?

2. If there is no god no heaven no hell why should i continue leading a life of pain and misery

ETC......

to state it briefly these and other questions while compleatly valid were at that time in my life more then just internal. I alowed myself to focus on these questions alowed myself to buy into the bullshit that i was fucked eather way. So what was the point of going on living.. That was a big question.

Luckily i gradualy came up with my own reasons to continue living. It is hard to explain to you or to anyone else who hasn't been in the position i have been in..

Needless to say these issues will be with me the rest of my life. How i deal with these issues is what is important. To me it is important to discuss them and to rationaly think about why.

Mehh.. Maybe i should make my point here.. I NEVER NEVER would have had these issues if i had not been brought up in a strict religious family. Why is that you ask ? Because i never would have had to ask myself was i lied to ? among many other questions about why a kind and just god would alowe something like this (And many other things in the world) to happen.

It was mainly a identity issue.. I think.. (Sorry im rambling here.. )

Cheers ..  

 


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Quote:

Quote:
Do you favour Behaviorism or Cognitivism?

Well, in America, behaviorism is often misunderstood. In Skinner's later works, I think he did a pretty good job of incorporating biology, behavior, and culture into a unified theory. However, it seems many people think behaviorism eliminates possibility of true choice. As with most systems of describing complex behaviors, behaviorism can only apply as far as it goes. In other words, it's a great way to speak quantitatively about behavior, but it doesn't really fly as a philosophical position.

To be honest, I'm not sure that cognitivism and behaviorism are necessarily at odds. If anything, I would say that in some ways, cognitivism is simply a macro approach to behaviorism. In other words, it's fine to talk about stimuli and responses, but when speaking to another human being, we must accept the perception that mental states exist, and that we are subject to them.

The other thing to bear in mind is that cognitivism is relatively new, and like all new approaches, it remains to be seen how it will hold up to decades of intense scrutiny and testing.

I don't know if that completely answers your question. Here's the bottom line for me. The human mind/body is an incredibly complex system, and virtually any reductionist approach to explaining it will be limited by the method of reduction. We must act as if free will exists even if it doesn't. We must function as if mental states and cognition determine behaviors, even if we can construct a quantifying system in which they don't.

Quote:
do you think that Daves post is enough to give a qualified diagnosis. I'm not regarding the difficulties of a tele diagnosis, I'm refering to the amount of information that can be gained from the first post.

No. However, since I am intimately familiar with American culture, there are some things that are warning signs -- things that usually hold true. Also, realize that this was not the first of Dave's posts that I've read.

I don't pretend to do internet diagnosis. First, I'm not a licensed psychologist, and second, I think any kind of psych evaluation needs to be in person. One can hide much online. That's why I went to extra lengths to say that I don't know for sure. Even so, as percentages go, knowing what I know, I think my opinion is fairly well educated.

Quote:
My third question is, could it be that you are projecting your own experiences (regarding religion) onto Dave?

Yes. It could be. However, I'd like you to keep in mind my analogy to rape victims. I'm not trying to compare the severity or type of mental trauma, but the comparison is still valid. If you have not experienced the kind of mental distress we're talking about, it's much more difficult to recognize it when you see it in others.

One of the things I've marvelled at is how readily rape victims can spot other rape victims. They recognize the signs because they are so familiar with them in their own behavior. There's truth to the old adage: "Takes one to know one."

Quote:
And my fourth and last question is: What qualifies Daves described behavior as a symptom of a trauma?

The level of mental distress experienced when thinking about the question. As I said earlier, most un-traumatized, mature adults, when told about fairy tale style stories, dismiss them without a thought. When something as ludicrous as hell causes real mental stress, it's an indicator of what I call "indoctrination trauma."

Quote:
Of course, I could be terribly wrong and Dave suffers terribly.

I don't mean to imply a degree of suffering, only the real possibility of some level of suffering.

Quote:
So unless Dave doesn't write that this whole thing prevents him from sleeping or something like that, I can't see a problem. I mean, he describes having thoughts.

If I am wrong, the most likely cause would be that I read more into Dave's post than was actually there. Hopefully he'll chime in and tell us exactly what degree of distress this question causes him.

Thanks for your questions. I hope I've answered them adequately.

 [edit:  I see that Dave has borne out my internet diagnosis while I was typing.  Score one for internet diagnosis.]

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Dave, thanks for the more

Dave, thanks for the more in depth explanation of what you're going through.  I just finished an essay that just might (might) make it into a book one day.  You can read a truncated version of it HERE.  I'm particularly interested in your response to it, since I wrote it for people in exactly your position.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


dave805
dave805's picture
Posts: 82
Joined: 2007-12-27
User is offlineOffline
If I am wrong, the most

If I am wrong, the most likely cause would be that I read more into Dave's post than was actually there. Hopefully he'll chime in and tell us exactly what degree of distress this question causes him.

 

At present it causes little to mild amounts of stress.. (Mainly when im on hear reading the BS theists post is when it causes the most Smiling )

In the past though the question caused major issues .. As stated in my prev post .

Edit..

Hambydammit wrote:

Dave, thanks for the more in depth explanation of what you're going through. I just finished an essay that just might (might) make it into a book one day. You can read a truncated version of it HERE. I'm particularly interested in your response to it, since I wrote it for people in exactly your position.

 

Reading it now  

 


Jolt
Jolt's picture
Posts: 69
Joined: 2007-06-07
User is offlineOffline
Kazuya wrote: And I

Kazuya wrote:
And I definetly agree with you, when you say it is bullshit. So why should we even think about it? For a very simple reason. If we don't allow our own belief to be questioned, then we are in fact practising another religion. At least I couldn't see a difference anymore, because the basic statements between atheism and christianity for example would be:for example would be:

 

There is a god, don't question it.

There is no god, don't question it.

I think you're missing the point.  No one is saying that you can't question what you believe.  In my opinion, questioning your beliefs is a very good thing.  Being driven by unfounded fears: bad.

Readiness to answer all questions is the infallible sign of stupidity. Saul Bellow, Herzog


dave805
dave805's picture
Posts: 82
Joined: 2007-12-27
User is offlineOffline
Wow Hambydammit  That is a

Wow Hambydammit 

That is a verry good artical you wrote up.

Specificaly the sections on Morality and a few other places.. 

"What does the question really mean?

Many people will find the previous two versions of our question to be lacking. There's something else hidden in the question. It's bigger than just the question of the nature of reality. What we really want to know is this: “If life is just the product of blind evolution and physical processes, what is the purpose of it all?” This comes closer to the question that's really on our minds, doesn't it? We want to know if there's room for hope in life. Is there something to look forward to, or is life really just an exercise in respiration, mastication, and procreation?"

 

 1. This particuler question is something i have struggled with for years.  Because if you reject the god bs.. What else is there? You summed it up better then i could. At the lowest point of my life i bought into the notion that their was not point at all in life and it was a total waste of time. 

 

2.  Yes... And with the absense of Hope comes dispair and fear.

 

You certainly have a better grasp with words then i do. Thank you for linking that for me to read. Definitly gave me much more to think on.  

 The funny thing about all this is i probibly never would have had these issues if i was like most people.. IE accepting everything i see and hear and never questioning... Or really thinking about things.  


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
I was raised by a very

I was raised by a very religious mother and wholeheartedly believed it for the first 24 years of my life.

I'm 33 now and it still messes with my head.  When I first came across the Blasphemy Challenge and started watching people deny the holy spirit I started to get an elevated heartbeat and began breathing quickly.

I remember shaking in fear of hell as a child in my bed at night.

Trauma.  That sounds right to me.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


dave805
dave805's picture
Posts: 82
Joined: 2007-12-27
User is offlineOffline
Watcher wrote: I was

Watcher wrote:

I was raised by a very religious mother and wholeheartedly believed it for the first 24 years of my life.

I'm 33 now and it still messes with my head. When I first came across the Blasphemy Challenge and started watching people deny the holy spirit I started to get an elevated heartbeat and began breathing quickly.

I remember shaking in fear of hell as a child in my bed at night.

Trauma. That sounds right to me.

Yea sounds about right mate.. Do you have a good relationship with your mother ?

I personaly have a strained relationship with my mother. Mainly because of feelings of anger towords her. (IE .. How could she lie to me like this etc..)  Needless to say i do love her very much. Yet at the same time she represents at times everything i have grown to hate about religion. 

It is tough trying to work through anger fear etc to get to the core issues. But hopefully i will not alow this to rule my life anymore.

A lot of this thread has opend quite a few raw wounds i have been nursing in my life.. Things i would normaly never say or talk openly about to others. Thankfully everyone here has been understanding and provided valuable inpute.

On a side note.. Another post on the forums asked us our motivation for being here and why we promote athieisim.

For me.. Honestly .. It is about anger.. True anger. Anger over how hypocritical religion is and those who follow it are . Anger about the Fear they indocternate into their children etc.. etc.. etc.. It makes me madder then hell.. 

I make comments that are at times not based on fact.. IE i state that people who believe in god are morons fools etc.. And yet while this may be true on this particuler issue , I am without a doubt that these people are much smarter then i ever will be on other things.

That being said it is hard to controll ones anger (Sense of injustice) when dealing with people who refuse to think about what they hold to be unquestionable.

Nothing .. NOTHING is unquestionable.. That my be just my opinion but let me leave you with this.

If i were to ask you if the sky was blue 99.9999% of you would say yes. But really.. Is they sky blue? To us it is.. But to the collor blind person it isn't. 

I think what i am trying to say is our reality is based uppon our perceptions. And our perceptions are based on our senses. Our senses are notoriusly crude and inacurate.

Mehh.. hope i made sense here..  

 

 


Kazuya
Posts: 21
Joined: 2007-11-22
User is offlineOffline
Hambydammit wrote: Thanks

Hambydammit wrote:


Thanks for your questions. I hope I've answered them adequately.



It's me who has to thank for the reply.


dave805 wrote:
[Fullquote]

I am really surprised about what you describe. Let me explain, what
"brought up in a religious house" meant to me.
When I went to school, there was this girl in my class. She was the
daughter of a local pastor. He raised his daughter "religously" (at
least that's the term I would have used until now) He taught her much about christianity and faith in general. But she assured me, that her father never put pressure on her to do or believe something. When she decided (I think she was 14 or 15 at that time) not to attend Communion but Jugendweihe instead (You can think of it as the secular cpounterpart here) it was perfectly fine with her father.
You know, of course I can imagine families where the parents wouldn't be that liberal, but the picture of children being actually forced to believe (not only to do something) is something I associate with the fundamental islamic world, not with the western hemisphere.

So give the new information, I admit that my first valuation of the situation was wrong. Now I really think that you were mentally harmed.

Jolt wrote:
I think you're missing the point. No one is saying that you can't question what you believe. In my opinion, questioning your beliefs is a very good thing. Being driven by unfounded fears: bad.

Well, now you're adding something to your point. You previously wrote:
Jolt wrote:
There's a big difference between consiously considering that you might be wrong and unwillingly doubting what you hold to be true.
"unwillingly doubting" something does not equal "being driven by fear".

Watcher wrote:

When I first came across the Blasphemy Challenge and started watching people deny the holy spirit I started to get an elevated heartbeat and began breathing quickly.

I remember shaking in fear of hell as a child in my bed at night.

I hope that my post will not be misunderstood. I definitely mean no disrespect. But it sounds so ridiculous to me.
I mean, it's hard for me to find the words to describe what think right now. This is happening in the western world? I mean, yeah I know that there are those religious nutty people, but I always thought that there are everywhere a few of them in any country. I mean it is not really happening in the western world. And I don't really dare to ask: Or is it?


dave805
dave805's picture
Posts: 82
Joined: 2007-12-27
User is offlineOffline
  Kazua.. This is why i am

 

Kazua.. This is why i am so angry.. This is what is happening EVERYWHERE religion is thrust onto unwilling children and people.

I know.. And completely understand your confusion. How Can people do this to each other.. That is basically what it boils down to.

And the answer is ......... control

That is all religioun is .. Controlling others, Telling them what they can do, What they can't do, and if nessisary killing them if they fail to follow. (Plenty of historical facts to show religion is deadlyer then any other plague in the history of mankind) 

The sad part about it is.. The core message is a good one. They way it has/is preached and spread has corrupted it so much that the core message is lost in the fear and intolerance.

A good way to put it is the Core message is the bait at the end of the hook. The hook is the fear, Hatred, intolerance that religion represents.  

 


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
dave805 wrote: Yea sounds

dave805 wrote:

Yea sounds about right mate.. Do you have a good relationship with your mother ?

Yes.  I love her very much.  There are just some things we don't talk about.  Well at least things that I don't talk about.

dave805 wrote:

I personaly have a strained relationship with my mother. Mainly because of feelings of anger towords her. (IE .. How could she lie to me like this etc..)  Needless to say i do love her very much. Yet at the same time she represents at times everything i have grown to hate about religion. 

I'm not angry at my mother about it because she is a victim too.  She was trying to do what she thought was best.  I feel bad for her sometimes.

And yes, my mother too, seems to often represent things I have grown to hate about religion.

She doesn't believe in evolution, she doesn't think homosexuals should be allowed to get married, she thinks that you HAVE to accept jesus christ as your personal saviour or you're going to hell, and she thinks starting off any sentence with "Well the bible says..." is the ultimate end of any arguement or disagreement.

dave805 wrote:

For me.. Honestly .. It is about anger.. True anger. Anger over how hypocritical religion is and those who follow it are . Anger about the Fear they indocternate into their children etc.. etc.. etc.. It makes me madder then hell.. 

I'm in the same boat as you are.  I feel very angry at religion right now.  I hope it is not a permanent feeling and I learn to let go one day.  But for now I feel very angry.

It seems we have a lot in common.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


pariahjane
pariahjane's picture
Posts: 1595
Joined: 2006-05-06
User is offlineOffline
Kazuya - I can't answer on

Kazuya - I can't answer on behalf of those who are sharing their experiences but I have heard of similar experiences from many others.  I have friends that do not attend church and are not affiliated in any way with a religious organization but still get upset about going to hell for some possible wrong-doing (example - talking very badly about a co-worker).  In this particular instance my friend was quite distraught about saying something ill in a fit of anger and concerned about her well-being in the after life.  And I'm not talking about children here.  These are adults.  

As I said earlier, I was not raised in a religious household.  My parents were agnostic if not atheist.  Yet I do remember going through a period of time where I was quite fretful about my inability to believe in god.   Everyone else did so I thought there was something wrong with me.

I don't know if you're from the US or not but religion is pretty prevalent and it's everywhere.  Even those of us who have not been effected by it closely have still been touched.  If we hadn't, perhaps we wouldn't be on this forum.  

If god takes life he's an indian giver


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
Kazuya wrote: Watcher

Kazuya wrote:

Watcher wrote:

When I first came across the Blasphemy Challenge and started watching people deny the holy spirit I started to get an elevated heartbeat and began breathing quickly.

I remember shaking in fear of hell as a child in my bed at night.

I hope that my post will not be misunderstood. I definitely mean no disrespect. But it sounds so ridiculous to me.
I mean, it's hard for me to find the words to describe what think right now. This is happening in the western world? I mean, yeah I know that there are those religious nutty people, but I always thought that there are everywhere a few of them in any country. I mean it is not really happening in the western world. And I don't really dare to ask: Or is it?

I agree it is ridiculous.  But when your parents and entire community teach you to believe all this crap from an extremely young age, it messes you up.

I grew up and still live in Texas.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Quote: This particuler

Quote:
This particuler question is something i have struggled with for years.  Because if you reject the god bs.. What else is there?

Dave, one of the most insidious beliefs that religion instills is the (absolutely false) notion that religion adds anything to human existence.  

What religion actually does is more akin to something the pharmaceutical industry is notorious for -- they create a problem, and then sell you the solution.

Without the notion of a higher power or afterlife, the question of "purpose" in life takes on a wholly different meaning.  It simply doesn't occur to us to ask if there is something more!  By default, for better or worse, we treat each day as if it may be our last, and we regard each decision as if our future depends on it.  There are no mulligans, and there's no such thing as absolution. 

Since you mentioned suicide, it's worth noting that it's not a "Mortal Sin," in the religious sense.  Clearly, the only consequence is non-existence -- for the deceased.  What is bad about suicide is what it can do to loved ones, and what it potentially deprives you of.  I don't encourage anyone to do it, particularly since there's no way to change your mind afterward.  However, the atheist has to look at it in terms of only those consequences that we know to exist.  There are certainly times when it's the better of bad options.  During the 9/11 attacks, I clearly remember seeing the people jumping off the building rather than burning to death.  Bad choice, but suicide was a better option.  Like I said in my essay, there's no higher authority to answer to -- only yourself and those who know you and will be affected by your decisions.

 

Quote:
2.  Yes... And with the absense of Hope comes dispair and fear.

Here's where religion lies the worst.  I recall a quote from one of Richard Dawkins' books where a colleague asked him how he had hope as an atheist.  He replied that it was easy.  He hoped that he would have a great lunch in the early afternoon.

It sounds flippant, but that really is all there is to it.  When we say there is no hope, we're engaging in all-or-nothing thinking.  It's true, there is no hope for anything past death.  There is no hope for miracles or divine intervention or absolution of past wrongs.  But that's not all there is.  We have hope that we can positively influence those around us and that their lives will be better.  We have hope that we will meet new people who will become as close to us as those we have lost.  We have hope that people will remember us fondly when we are gone.  We have hope that we will live in a way that makes others glad to be our friends.

There is much to hope for.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Kazuya
Posts: 21
Joined: 2007-11-22
User is offlineOffline
pariahjane wrote: As I

pariahjane wrote:

As I said earlier, I was not raised in a religious household. My parents were agnostic if not atheist. Yet I do remember going through a period of time where I was quite fretful about my inability to believe in god. Everyone else did so I thought there was something wrong with me.

Well, here in that specific corner where I live, it is pretty much the other way around. Most people here are atheists. I actually don't know anybody who goes to church. I remember a specific day in school, where we got a new teacher from westgermany. She wanted us to research a text in the bible for the next day. We tried to explain to her, that basically nobody here has a bible at home. So we couldn't do the homework. To make it short, we just laughed her out, when the next day almost everybody confessed that he or she hadn't done the homework. She was quite made about us though. But we didn't simply care.

pariahjane wrote:

I don't know if you're from the US or not but religion is pretty prevalent and it's everywhere. Even those of us who have not been effected by it closely have still been touched. If we hadn't, perhaps we wouldn't be on this forum.

First of all: No, I'm not from the US. I'm from Germany, born in the communist german democratic republic and now I'm living near Berlin, still in the eastern part of germany. But of course it is not a communist country anymore. As part of the GDR aftermath, most people here are atheists. The reason why I'm here on that board is actually that I got in touch with mormons from the US. It wasn't long ago, that I almost ran on a weekly basis into somebody who appeared to be a student first, asking me with a strong american accent where a specific building was on the campus and when I answered that, they usually said that they want to talk with me about god. Well, those guys were always Members of the "church of Jesus Christ of the later day saints" doing missonary work. So, it didn't took long until I startet answering any student with an american accent that I'm an atheist and I'm not interessted in joining. I later met a whole bunch of mormons in the train, that I normally used to get home. And it takes almost an hour to get to my destination, so once I engaged a whole bunch of them, and they were debating me about religious subjects. This was the first time, that I came in touch with that irrational claims, about science and the age of the earth and all that stuff. I read in the newspapers before, that there are thos ID supporters, but it was always happening far away. It wasn't long ago, that I read that some politicians here in germany want ID to be taught in school. So I did some research and came accross that Debate on ABC between Brian/Kelly and Kirk Cameron/Ray Comfort. And finally I got here. I have researched the topic about ID, the debate and what arguments are being used. But what I wasn't aware of is what is going on a family level.


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
Kazuya wrote:First of all:

Kazuya wrote:
First of all: No, I'm not from the US. I'm from Germany, born in the communist german democratic republic and now I'm living near Berlin, still in the eastern part of germany. But of course it is not a communist country anymore. As part of the GDR aftermath, most people here are atheists. The reason why I'm here on that board is actually that I got in touch with mormons from the US. It wasn't long ago, that I almost ran on a weekly basis into somebody who appeared to be a student first, asking me with a strong american accent where a specific building was on the campus and when I answered that, they usually said that they want to talk with me about god. Well, those guys were always Members of the "church of Jesus Christ of the later day saints" doing missonary work. So, it didn't took long until I startet answering any student with an american accent that I'm an atheist and I'm not interessted in joining. I later met a whole bunch of mormons in the train, that I normally used to get home. And it takes almost an hour to get to my destination, so once I engaged a whole bunch of them, and they were debating me about religious subjects. This was the first time, that I came in touch with that irrational claims, about science and the age of the earth and all that stuff. I read in the newspapers before, that there are thos ID supporters, but it was always happening far away. It wasn't long ago, that I read that some politicians here in germany want ID to be taught in school. So I did some research and came accross that Debate on ABC between Brian/Kelly and Kirk Cameron/Ray Comfort. And finally I got here. I have researched the topic about ID, the debate and what arguments are being used. But what I wasn't aware of is what is going on a family level.

Yeah, it's pretty bad here in the States, Kazuya.  The majority of americans believe in christianity here and teach their children that non-believers in christ will burn for an eternity in hell.

One of my coworkers is a young-earth creationist.

When Kansas decided to allow Intelligent Design to be taught in science class I was really angry.  I went to the place I worked at at the time and was griping about it to 5 of my coworkers.

They disagreed with me and said that ID should be taught in science class.

I was blown away.

We've grown quite insane over here.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


Kazuya
Posts: 21
Joined: 2007-11-22
User is offlineOffline
dave805 wrote: Kazua..

dave805 wrote:

Kazua.. This is why i am so angry.. This is what is happening EVERYWHERE religion is thrust onto unwilling children and people.

I know.. And completely understand your confusion. How Can people do this to each other.. That is basically what it boils down to.

And the answer is ......... control

As a matter of fact, I do know some very reasonable christians who are actually debating their point of view. And they do it in a way, where I as an atheist can perfectly live with them. The christians I personally know, strongly defend the separation of church and state, because they accept that this guarantees everybody the most religious freedom in a society. Sometime I read about those nutcases in a newspaper who want more christian values in the laws. But you know, the christians I know normally shake their heads about those people. And the girl from my class, the pastors daughter, lives now her life as an agnostic. And as far as I know, there is no big deal with that.


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Kazuya, If America was like

Kazuya,

If America was like what you have described, there would be no need for us.  Unfortunately, it is much, much worse.  Let me share a couple of quotes with you from our religious leaders:

"Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history."
--Pat Robertson, 1993 interview with Molly Ivins

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."
-- Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992


"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
--Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue, The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 8-16-93

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


dave805
dave805's picture
Posts: 82
Joined: 2007-12-27
User is offlineOffline
"The feminist agenda is not

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."
-- Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992

 

 

Seriusly.... WTF ..  


Jolt
Jolt's picture
Posts: 69
Joined: 2007-06-07
User is offlineOffline
Kazuya wrote: Let me

Kazuya wrote:
Let me explain, what
"brought up in a religious house" meant to me.
When I went to school, there was this girl in my class. She was the
daughter of a local pastor. He raised his daughter "religously" (at
least that's the term I would have used until now) He taught her much about christianity and faith in general. But she assured me, that her father never put pressure on her to do or believe something. When she decided (I think she was 14 or 15 at that time) not to attend Communion but Jugendweihe instead (You can think of it as the secular cpounterpart here) it was perfectly fine with her father.

I thought of this YouTube video when I read that:

 

 

Readiness to answer all questions is the infallible sign of stupidity. Saul Bellow, Herzog


dave805
dave805's picture
Posts: 82
Joined: 2007-12-27
User is offlineOffline
  Yea ive seen this video

 

Yea ive seen this video before.. Truely wacked what that mom is doing to her son.

"your a atheist... Give me a fucking break Mikle"

Nice way to talk to your son..... Specialy if you are suposed to be a christian..

"You going to get absolutly nothing for xmass.. NOTHING NOTHING .. Because that is what Xmass is all about"

 LMAO..... Bravo for the kid.. He has more guts then i do. 

The mother on the other hand should be ashamed of herself and the father.... Mehh i don't blame him for just sitting their and not saying anything... I wouldn't want to say anything ether with a wife like that.  


ERRI8013
Posts: 21
Joined: 2007-12-27
User is offlineOffline
dave805 wrote: First off a

dave805 wrote:

First off a statement.. I do not believe in god. I believe people who believe in god are brainwashed morons.

So far you will appreciate this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQ

the name is "kissing hank's ass" and if you like to read their conversation I'll post it below:

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me:   "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you."

Me:   "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."

Me:   "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me:   "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me:   "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me:   "And has He given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me:   "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you."

Me:   "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me:   "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me:   "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

Me:   "What's that got to do with Hank?"

John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"

Me:   "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the shit out of you."

Me:   "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me:   "Then how do you kiss His ass?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

Me:   "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me:   "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

From the Desk of Karl

  1. Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
  2. Use alcohol in moderation.
  3. Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
  4. Eat right.
  5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
  6. The moon is made of green cheese.
  7. Everything Hank says is right.
  8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
  9. Don't use alcohol.
  10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
  11. Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the shit out of you.

Me:   "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me:   "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me:   "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

Me:   "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me:   "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me:   "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me:   "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me:   "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me:   "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me:   "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

Me:   "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me:   "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary: She blushes.

John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me:   "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me:   "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary: She looks positively stricken.

John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me:   "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me:   "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary: She faints.

John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.


dave805
dave805's picture
Posts: 82
Joined: 2007-12-27
User is offlineOffline
Loved it lol..... That is

Loved it lol..... That is funy as hell and yet... Disturbingly righton about religion. Sticking out tongue And yes i got the references.

 

Thanks for posting that. . 


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 4127
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
dave805 wrote:

dave805 wrote:

 

First off a statement.. I do not believe in god. I believe people who believe in god are brainwashed morons.

 

That said i am about to make a confession. While i do not believe in a god etc.. I have a hard time bringing myself to do anything that might jeopardize my position in a possible afterlife. After some self analysis i came to the conclusion that i fear the possibility that i might be wrong on a subconscious level.

So does this make me a hypocrite ? Consciously i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their is no god their is no heaven or hell. Yet subconsciously i am afraid that i might be wrong. (Is this normal? )

Mehh.. I KNOW !! there is no god but why the hell is the doubt there? Maybe it has something to do with my religious upbringing ? I do not know. Just that it bothers me to some extent. (Obviously enough to make a post about it..)

Maybe it is just my human nature showing up in my subconscious. Wich would make sense because it is human nature to want to believe in something greater then ourselves.


I sure as hell ain't some theist or bible thumper..

comments on this would be appreciated

I am a former Christian ( over 25 years ) and am now a person who could be classified as a soft atheist. Therefore I reserve judgment on the matter until I am supplied with enough evidence to justify a belief in God.

Old habits die hard and I too liken my experience with "orthodox" Christianity to being influenced by a cult. There is still an emotional component of my former faith that rears it's ugly head from time to time. I find it quite disturbing.

As a person who has unfortunately lost the genetic lottory I live close to death all the time. My user name is quite autobiographical and self-extermination is simply my future. I accept that. I look to my demise as a welcome release, nevertheless I don't know what lies beyond mortal existsnce...if anything at all, hence my fear.

My rational mind tells me that the Judeo / Christian God is no more real than the pagan gods of history but my mind is still pulled back into it's old habits. The one thing that I find comforting is that I conveniently only seem to worry about the God whose influence I was smothered with. Isn't it a funny coincidence that I do not seem to worry about being condemned by Allah or Kali or any other gods of modern-day religions ?

So yes, even as an atheist I have doubts and I'm happy to share them on this forum if it helps any others to adjust to a life without faith.

 

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


Blind_Chance
Blind_Chance's picture
Posts: 124
Joined: 2008-01-09
User is offlineOffline
I will hold your hand in

I will hold your hand in HELL.

Did that help ? 


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 4127
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
Blind_Chance wrote: I will

Blind_Chance wrote:

I will hold your hand in HELL.

Did that help ?

Not really, I'm a heterosexual male so holding hands with another guy just isn't my thing.  Thanks anyway.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


Blind_Chance
Blind_Chance's picture
Posts: 124
Joined: 2008-01-09
User is offlineOffline
ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Blind_Chance wrote:

I will hold your hand in HELL.

Did that help ?

Not really, I'm a heterosexual male so holding hands with another guy just isn't my thing.

Welcome in HELL Laughing

I almost missed the most funny thing in this topic, thank you  for  'Kissing Hank's ass" ! ROFL

Ecrasez l'infame!