Opinions on the best biblical contradictions?
Offline Alright, so I've been lurking on these boards for a little while now, but haven't really had the inclination to post. Until now.
I'm in a private North Carolina high school. We're forced to take a bible class every year in order to graduate, and this year just happens to be the "apologetics" class year. As the single athiest in the entire class, I pretty much have my work cut out for me with what happened today. We've been discussing biblical doctrine, and how it is the "inerrant word of God." Naturally, I brought up the contradictions and historical falsities within the bible, and was turned down with the refutation that "If you really interpret things as God meant for them to be interpreted, you would see that there are no contractions in the bible whatsoever." I call bullshit. So, I get challenged to bring in some biblical contradictions so they can "tear them apart". Now, I've seen Rooks' impressive and detailed list of contradictions, but I'm trying to whittle it down to about 10 contradictions total.
This is where I'm looking for help; if you were in my position, what contradictions in the bible would you use? In your opinion, which contradictions would have the greatest impact?
Thanks everyone, keep up the rational thinking.
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I was once in your position. I think one of the best biblical contradictions (this is the one that started me on the path to atheism, by the way) is that God is supposed to be all-knowing and all-powerful. God can't create sin, yet God made Lucifer knowing that he would one day turn against his creator. God also made the tree of knowledge AND the tree of life knowing that Adam and Eve would later eat of it. That makes God into a sadistic trickster, if not a creator of evil. So you have two things there: Either God created evil and negates his own existence because he is based on sinlessness or God is a sick fuck. Either way, God's a dick. That was enough to make me not want to worship him. I think it's a fairly good contradiction.
EDIT: It wouldn't happen to be Falls Road or Faith Christian, would it? Those are just two I know of. I'm wondering if you went where I did. You don't have to say which one, just whether it's one of those two.
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I think the biggest internal contradictions in the Bible are between Gen 1 and Gen 2. The two chapters contradict each other on the sequence and nature of creation in pretty much every detail (e.g. chapter 2 doesn't mention any days, chapter 1 doesn't involve any rib surgery).
These contradictions stem from the fact that the two chapters are actually two different creation stories adapted from two conflicting sources. Even the name of God is different in each version. Only the broadest stretch of the imagination can read the two tales as a single, coherent creation story.
But my personal favorite contradiction is the one from 1Kings 7:23 where the Bible claims that the value of Pi = 3. That's a measurable, quantifiable error that makes it pretty much impossible for anyone to claim that the bible is inerrant.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
I think the best way to approach this is to challenge them use the bible to refute your contradiction claims. Tell them to try to refute it without using rationalizations or apologetics. Also remember it's how you present it. I would also reccomend using a better translation such as the RSV version. Also read the verses before and after to get a good idea of what you are talking about. Remember They will try to use excuses if you start listing contradictions. Also bring in the definition of Contradiction.
Has god been seen or hasn't he?
(Gen. 17:1) – “Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty ; Walk before Me, and be blameless;
(Gen. 18:1) Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.”
(Exodus 6:2-3) – “God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD; 3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty , but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.”
(Exodus 24:9-11) – “Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”
(Num. 12:6-8) – “He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision . I shall speak with him in a dream. 7"Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses ?"
(Acts 7:2), "And he [Stephen] said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran. . . "
(Exodus 33:20) – “But He [God] said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live !"
(John 1:18) – “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
(John 5:37) – “"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.”
(John 6:46) - "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
(1 Tim. 6:15-16) – “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion ! Amen.”
(1 John 4:12) No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us
Co-Founder of the Atheist/Freethought website Pathofreason.com
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My top 10 (no particular order)
Can only God work wonders?
Can God be tempted?
Is Jesus Peaceful?
Do Christians sin?
Are the laws of the Old Testament still binding? (my personal favourite)
Is God merciful?
To judge or not to judge?
Will the righteous flourish?
How many gods are there?
Do humans have free will?
There are of course many more. I prefer those which attack the fundamentals of the religion, rather than stuff like "how did Judas die" and such. Here's a full list.
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Hmm... I'm no theist... but even I find the second one to be a little weak.
I speak of the "Can God be tempted?" question. There is the verse that says God can't be tempted. Then there is a list of verses that have various people being told that they should not tempt God. I don't think that necessarily proves that God can be tempted. It just proves that people are trying to tempt him. I was surprised that they didn't have the verse from Genesis in (I think) the KJV where it literally says that God tempted Abraham. Now THAT is an outright contradiction since the first verse offered also says that God does not tempt anyone. Apparently he does!
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
A religious fanatic on the mental health boards I used to be on told me the thing about God creating evil wasn't as I understood it. She explained the Hebrew translation (which, I admit, I have limited knowledge about) showed that God didn't create evil, but I forget the whole explanation.
Then there are those, like The View's Elisabeth Hasselbeck, who believe the Bible's description of days is not like we think of days, lasting 24 hours. She says the idea that the Earth is 6,000 years old isn't what some Christians believe, when they say they believe the Bible completely, but that the days were much longer.
No matter how you debate these people, they will have a way of making their views and beliefs fit their own religion. They essentially stick their fingers in their ears and rock back and forth, blocking out your voice with, "No, no, no, not true, nyaaah, nyaaah, nyaaah, you're wrong, don't know what you're talking about, no, no, no..."
no no no its
" no no no no no Jesus Jesus jesus jesus"
Whenever a xian uses this argument I point out that plants were created before the sun and before the bugs. How could the plants have survived without either for millions of years? The days in the bible should be taken as 24 hour days or the bible should be thrown out.
Funniest part about this is that I got this argument from Kent Hovind.
As for favorite contradictions my favs are that bats are called birds, and that the value of pi is 3.
The skeptics anotated bible is a good place to find some more because not only do they show all the contradictions, they also show the xian responces so you can prepare as to what your classmates responces will be.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
How about the belief in one god. What exactly is Jesus? Jesus is the son of God, does that make him a god, or is he like Hercules, half man/half god? So should it be the belief in one and a half gods? If he is mortal man, how can he turn water into wine, heal leperacy, be resurected from the dead? If he is a god, that blows the whole one god thing. I know the father, the son, and the holy spirit equals God. So then how could Jesus (1/3 of God) be the son of himself? But even when I did ask a question about that when I was in catholic school, the answer I got from a nun was "Don't ask stupid questions, there is only one god." WTF kind of answer is that? And isn't "Jesus Christ, my lord and savior" putting Jesus before God: "Put no others before me"
If a god never existed, man would be forced to create one.
Yes, jesus is god but part of god at the same time
to christians, at least a decent amount of them, this equation is true.
3 x 1 = 1
Well let's make it easy for them to see. How about just show them two verses that come one after the other on one page of the bible?
PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
No, no, no, you see... it's like this....
There was the original god from Genesis who divided himself via mitosis and then kicked his replica's ass and forced it to call him "Big Pappa". He then commanded his replica to manifest itself on earth as Jesus (God for dummies), and then he used mitosis a second time and sent the Holy Spirit to work on people, but without being a dick about it like God would have done (God Lite). But then when you take all three and put them back together, God becomes a giant robot named Voltron! There are still three of them, but what really matters is the whole fucking robot. Ya know?
We shall call this theory: "Voltrosis".
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
Well, that's a problem in itself because I like Voltron. Now I'm completly torn and confused. Ahh... religion at it's finest!
If a god never existed, man would be forced to create one.
Hands down the best religious parody ever.
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But you did strengthen this a bit. Bring in where god tempted Abraham (and there are others as well) and add that to the "can god be tempted" for a 2 part question. Can god be tempted or tempt other people? Here's a link here to the question of whether or not god can tempt.
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I like how Jesus is the only way to Heaven, but he didn't show up for thousands of years. So, since Jesus said that no one could go to the Father but by him, what does that mean for the faithful in the Old Testament? Abraham almost killed his son for God, but he doesn't get into Heaven? Goddamn, that's fucked up. It's kinda funny, too.
"But God, I served you all of my days! I did your every command!"
God: Yeah, I know but... Look... It's not you, it's me. I mean... I have a son now... I'm sorry.
God-- The Ultimate Ex-Boyfriend. (if anyone makes that into a t-shirt, I want one)
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=SnerdWilliams Independent Atheist Movement Forums
Thanks everyone for the posts - my questions are going to be asked Monday, so we'll see the responses I get. I'm really curious as to how they're gonna talk their way out of this one:
It isn't actually either of those two - I've heard of Faith Christian, but we're probably over an hour away from it.
Oh, and on an unrelated note, we had a discussion on America's view on Christianity, and the Blasphemy Challenge got mentioned. We must have talked about it for 20 minutes, during which a kid said: "Yeah, I think it’s done by this group of people... The Satanic Responders or something..."
Welcome to the forums, Slice!
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Thats hilarious, although i have had an hypothesis that Sapient is actually satan for quite a while (for anyone who doesn't see it this is sarcasm).
Good luck. Hopefully this isn't too late, but this (http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/09/100-challenge.html) is an earth-shattering article from John W. Loftus:
The 100% Challenge:
As a pastor, I often made reference in my sermons to the “astounding prophecies of the Bible,” which I believed proved the deity of Christ and the divine inspiration of Scripture beyond a reasonable doubt. It was my sincere conviction that if an unbeliever examined, for example, the Messianic prophecies embedded in the Old Testament with an open mind, he would walk away a convert to Christ. How many prophecies are we talking about here? Well, that depends on who you ask. Jews for Jesus point to several dozen Messianic prophecies, while Josh McDowell in Evidence that Demands a Verdict claims “over 300 references to the messiah that were fulfilled in Jesus.” According to ChristianAnswers.Net, “The probability that Jesus of Nazareth could have fulfilled even eight such prophecies would be only 1 in 1017” (that's 10 to the power of 17).
For decades, I accepted this standard defense of the Christian faith without question. It was not until a Bible class earlier this year that serious doubts about the Messianic prophecies began to bubble to the surface. I was teaching through John's Gospel, verse by verse, when the class came to chapter 19 and verse 36 ("These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: Not one of his bones will be broken" ). Someone asked me about the original prophecy, so I followed my index finger to the handy-dandy cross reference and arrived at Psalm 34:20. Ah, here I would be able to show the class one of the "astounding" prophecies of Scripture that "proves beyond a doubt" that Jesus was the Christ. What I discovered was, shall we say, underwhelming:
19 A righteous man may have many troubles,
but the LORD delivers him from them all;
20 he protects all his bones,
not one of them will be broken.
This is certainly an inspiring verse of Scripture, but you would have to be a fool to take it as a prophecy of the Messiah. I was left in the truly awkward position of explaining to the class why John took a verse like this and wrenched it so violently from its original context (something I've preached against for years). As we went along, I noticed other misquoted passages the Gospel writer applied to Jesus. I was quite embarrassed--not for myself, but for the apostle John! This got me to wondering--how many other claims of prophetic fulfillment are not just a little bit off, but way off?
Here's why this question is so important to evangelical Christianity: if the Messianic prophecies fail, the entire Christian foundation erodes away with it (see Deut. 18:22). The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM) recognizes this: “How do you respond to someone's claim that the Bible is not inspired? Is there a way to prove inspiration or, at least, intelligently present evidence for its inspiration? The answer is, ‘Yes!’ One of the best ways to prove inspiration is by examining prophecy.”
Got that? Christians say that you can evaluate the Bible’s claims of divine inspiration by whether or not it accurately records actual instances of fulfilled prophecy. CARM continues: “If just one prophecy failed, then we would know that God is not the true God, because the creator of all things, which includes time, would not be wrong about predicting the future.”
So, does everyone understand the rules of the game? If we can find just one bogus prophecy—one instance where the Bible says something is going to happen a certain way and it doesn’t pan out—this is all a reasonable person needs to demonstrate the Bible is human, not divine, in origin. Put another way, if there were 100 Bible prophecies and 99 were shown to be right on the money, 1 wrong prophecy would be enough to spoil a 100% perfect record. If the Messianic prophecies are shady in any way, then the Bible is not the perfect product of a perfect God (as millions believe today). Perhaps most significant, without 100% accuracy of the Messianic passages, Jesus cannot be the One sent from heaven to redeem the world.
Now that we have our challenge, can we find one bogus prophecy? Well, here's where it gets tough: choosing just one! Let’s start in Matthew, who is prolific in his quotation Old Testament prophecies and his application of them to Jesus. Should we build our case on a passage like Matthew 2:23? It says of Jesus, “And he came and dwelt in the city called Nazareth , that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, 'He shall be called a Nazarene.’” I'm sad to say that in my 20 years as a Christian, I never realized that Matthew makes reference to a prophecy that doesn’t even exist! Try as you may, you will nowhere find a place in the Old Testament where it unambiguously declares the Messiah would be a Nazarene.
How about the (in)famous example of Isaiah 7:14? Matthew uses this prophecy as the cornerstone of his Gospel, quoting Isaiah as saying, “Behold, the virgin shall be with child.” However, the word Matthew translates "virgin" would be more accurately translated “young woman.” The Jews had a very specific word for virgin (bethulah), but it was not the word Isaiah chose (ha-almah). Holy disappearing virgin, Batman! Further examination of the chapter reveals that the promised child of Isaiah 7:14 was to be a sign to Ahaz, a Judean king who lived centuries before Jesus was even born!
Or how about this one: Matthew’s claim that King Herod slaughtered “all the male children who were in Bethlehem and its vicinity, from two years old and under” (Matthew 2:16). Every Sunday school student knows this story (one Bible class lesson titles this episode, “Babies Give Their Lives for Jesus”). As a minister, I searched desperately to substantiate this story with the Jewish histories of Josephus or with any secular historian of that era--only to realize that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence behind it. To add insult to injury, Matthew (or whoever wrote under his name) would have us believe that this fanciful tale was also a fulfillment of ancient prophecy. He quotes Jeremiah 31:15: “A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children; and she refused to be comforted, because they were no more.” Once again, a careful reading of the entire chapter in its context reveals that Jeremiah is talking about a situation far removed from Bethlehem, Herod, and the Magi. He is describing the struggles of the Israelites during the Babylonian Captivity. The few verses after verse 15 bear this out:
15 This is what the LORD says:
"A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because her children are no more."
16 This is what the LORD says:
"Restrain your voice from weeping
and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,"
declares the LORD.
"They will return from the land of the enemy.
17 So there is hope for your future,"
declares the LORD.
"Your children will return to their own land.”
Clearly the Gospel writer was stretching it a bit (read: a lot)!
No doubt, I will hear from outraged Christians who cannot understand how a minister so in-tune with the Bible, from a conservative Christian denomination, can question these prophecies. Well, please understand that there are fair-minded, rational people out there who do have trouble with them. The man whose question sparked this search was not a skeptic, but a respected deacon of my church.
That having been said, I’m interested in what Christians perusing this forum see as so irrefutable about the so-called Messianic prophecies about Jesus. If the standard for prophecy is 100% accuracy—no misses—then (as Ricky Ricardo would say) "someone’s got some 'splaining to do!"
/end of article
And in my own words, I'd like to say that the best defense is a good offense. Go get 'em!
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
Side note: This was part of the article posted by Master Jedi Dan.
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Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
My apologies! I wasn't clear in what I posted. That wasn't directed at you in any way, Master Jedi Dan.
I just wanted to be sure any theists that read these forums didn't try to respond.
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There is one so big and glaring I'm surprised it doesn't come up more:
God shouldn't make mistakes, what with te all-knowing, all-seeing bit, but then initiated the "Etch-a-sketch end of the world" with his floods and magic ice-meteors and shit because....why? God needs to do a dry-run? (pardon the pun)
Oops, sorry. No harm meant.
I have another great biblical contradiction. How did evil come out of the supposedly "perfect" creation? If god's creation was flawless, then how did something flawed come from it?
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
I forgot something - Slice, if you're looking for some good questions, I've been writing stuff down about the Bible and Christianity that I've found here and around other sites. The compiled result is an 80-page PDF document that is far from finished, but has plenty of good arguments in it. You can download it here: http://masterjedidan.googlepages.com/biblical_arguments.pdf
Enjoy!
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
Thanks for the ideas and help everyone - the presentation went incredibly well; special thanks to Master Jedi Dan, whose brilliant PDF brought my teacher to sputtering nonsense.
Speaking of which, they ultimately 'refuted' my points by saying "If you don't have the holy spirit in you, you won't be able to comprehend the truth of the word." And we all know what kind of statement that is.
Although my teacher did do something I couldn't believe - he said that there was nothing wrong with circular logic. I just love school.
You're welcome! I'm just glad I could help
. I did update it since everything was kind of disorganized, so version 2.0 is at the same download location (http://masterjedidan.googlepages.com/biblical_arguments.pdf). I have organized it, put in chapter marks, and updated a few things, so it looks a lot better. Enjoy!
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
Your school sounds awesome. From my understanding, circular logic is technically valid, the problem is that it doesn't demonstrate anything. Therefore it is useless.