Beliefs are Deterministic
Offline I have tried many times to put this into an outline. It always ends up way to long, and then I feel that I need to add one more thing, allthough, it doesnt fit anywhere! It's compleately relevant, and very neccissary to the argument, but It doesn't fit in the outline! So I'll make this quick and dirty.
Wheater we have free will or not, beliefs must be deterministic.
Can you decide to believe that there is a unicorn in your closet? What about beliving that there is a red ball on your nose? Is it simply a decision you can make? Or does it have to be based on evidence or experiance? If beliefs are based on evidence, we can not control our beliefs we can only control what evidence that we hear.
If beliefs were deterministic, rather than a free decision, I would expect the following:
Geographic isolation of different belief systems(religions).
Children would have beliefs identical to their parents.
People would tend to associate only with people of the same beliefs.
(I'm sure theres more, but remember, this is quick and dirty.)
Please, tell me what you think. I could have totally missed something, or i could be right...
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Indeed.
I know what you mean about being hard to put it down in words. I've thought about it a few times myself, but it never looks complete enough or right enough.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
The view you're describing is Doxastic Involuntarism. You'll find more info if you google it.
Thanks. I feel a bit better knowing philosophers haven't completely figured it out either.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Awsome. That really seems to be the view I have.
Beliefs are clearly not a choice, that's painfully obvious. But theists are necessarily tied to the idea that belief is a choice - otherwise, a lack of belief could not be a 'sin', as there is no intent. Christianity then falls to pieces.... (unless you're a calvinist)
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
what's a belief?
A belief is everything you know that other people are not so sure about.
But seriously:
I find one of my most effective arguments against believers is on this very question. I tell them I have no choice to be an atheist.
They tell me I could believe in God or not, so I do have a choice.
I respond, Not true, if I base what I believe on all my experiences, and all my experiences tell me there is no such thing.
Then the kicker. You say you believe in God because you've experienced him. I've had no such experiences. I base my beliefs on the same thing you do, the experiences of my life. Until I have experiences of God, nothing you can say to me about him will change that fact.
This is not a way to convince someone there is no god, but it is a way to get them (some of them) to empathize with being an atheist.
I like the way you put it kimisho. This is basically how I ended both of my original outlines.
What does it mean for christianity? John 3:15 says "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life". Romans 1:20 says "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"
So, where is this evidence for god? I don't see any. I can actually NOT believe in any god based on this so called evidence. It seems that I am to "perish" because of this.
And if this were the case, then why even prostelyze?
"god" ought to be axiomatic, unavoidable.... but 'god' isn't... to the eternal consternation of theists....
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
I think what they have in mind is how our biases can affect their beliefs. It's basically an accusation of dishonesty.
"Deep down inside you know that Jesus exists but you just don't want to admit to it because you don't like to think that someone is the boss of you!!"
Fortunately that's an accusation they won't be able to make for much longer. I remember reading an article about a lie detector that actually works coming.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
This would make it a clear case of projection.
I know I have doubts. (After all, I take my position on emotions, on faith)
So if I have doubts, so must everyone else.
Ergo, you have doubts (too).
That's really what a projection is.... an expression of one's own fears... when we project, we leave out the word 'too"
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'