Schizophrenics and religious belief...

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Schizophrenics and religious belief...

Todangst? This was a letter sent via myspace to us.

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----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Lara
Date: Nov 9 2006 3:05 AM

First of all, I just found your site and I will be donating shortly. Thank you guys!

I have a brother who is a severe paranoid schizophrenic. Through most of his illness his delusions revolve around irrational religious beliefs ie: voices of the angels, him being Jesus himself-it changes. Mind you, schizophrenics will change their delusions and the "voices" will change but his focus on Christian mythos is pretty consistent. I learned that it is pretty common with schizophrenics to have the god driven delusions. I also learned that in many tribal societies when schizophrenia occurs (usually in adolescence) the tribal leaders treat it as a phase that will pass-and it usually does. Here, we medicate them and are advised to not rationalize with them. Is it possible that religion is part of the problem in treating schizophrenics? I do realize that they would find another delusion if religion was not part of the equation, but perhaps the mass belief in idiocy doesn't help convince them that they're delusional? My brother is mentally ill and believes the angel Gabriel is guiding him to save the world-but millions of people believe things that I find equally nutty. If you're aware of any medical professionals who have a theory on this topic I would love to read it.


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My ex has a bother who is a

My ex has a bother who is a schizophrenic. Its weird how they are attracted to religion. Makes me wonder about all religious people.

I'm inclined to think religion is a mind virus (as in like a software virus). It distorts the real universe - like looking through melted glass.

I think embracing religion is a step towards mental problems, however, for those who are mentally ill and embrace religion, this could be a stabilizing factor in their illness and might even be a step towards reality depending on the extent of their illness; only because some clerics will direct the subject to seek help. Medication is the schizophrenics' best course of action. Unfortunately, schizophrenics left to themselves stop taking their medications.

An acticle: http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/003340.html

and a book: http://www.schizophrenia.com/media/#chris

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Aiia wrote:I'm inclined to

Aiia wrote:
I'm inclined to think religion is a mind virus (as in like a software virus). It distorts the real universe - like looking through melted glass.

This is exactely what Susan Blackmore says in her book "The Meme Machine".

link to book

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:
Todangst? This was a letter sent via myspace to us.

Quote:

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Lara
Date: Nov 9 2006 3:05 AM

First of all, I just found your site and I will be donating shortly. Thank you guys!

I have a brother who is a severe paranoid schizophrenic. Through most of his illness his delusions revolve around irrational religious beliefs ie: voices of the angels, him being Jesus himself-it changes. Mind you, schizophrenics will change their delusions and the "voices" will change but his focus on Christian mythos is pretty consistent. I learned that it is pretty common with schizophrenics to have the god driven delusions. I also learned that in many tribal societies when schizophrenia occurs (usually in adolescence) the tribal leaders treat it as a phase that will pass-and it usually does. Here, we medicate them and are advised to not rationalize with them. Is it possible that religion is part of the problem in treating schizophrenics? I do realize that they would find another delusion if religion was not part of the equation, but perhaps the mass belief in idiocy doesn't help convince them that they're delusional? My brother is mentally ill and believes the angel Gabriel is guiding him to save the world-but millions of people believe things that I find equally nutty. If you're aware of any medical professionals who have a theory on this topic I would love to read it.

I worked with people with traumatic brain injuries for two years, and during that time I worked with several people within the same ward that had christian based religious delusions.

There's a lot to say regarding an explanation of this phenomena. First, we have to understand how a person operating at the psychotic level thinks. The basic feature of psychosis is a confusion between what is in their minds and what is actually outside of their minds that even influences concepts as basic as self identity. While psychotics can be intelligent and empathic, they tend to view the world in simple, concrete dichotomies, and they tend to defend against attacks through narcissism (I'm better than you, so you can't hurt me!) and paranoia (I don't have a problem, it's you that has the problem! In fact, it's a conspiracy!)**

Anyone familiar with religion will see the link between psychosis and religious/dogmatic thinking, - religion inculcates dichotomized, concrete thinking, (You're either with us or against us - George Bush) and religion inspires both narcissistic and paranoid styles of defense against anxiety.

Now the next part to explore is where the psychotic obtains the content for his delusions. Basically, when you take on a delusion, you don't start from scratch - instead, you build up a delusion based on some mythos that you've learned. And one of the reasons that the christian delusion is so popular is likely due to both to its simple, concrete dichotomies (good/evil) as well to its narcissitic and paranoid features.

In my work with traumatic brain injuries, I had one client who held that god communicated to him through causing his brain injury.. the client believed that the holy, ever flowing fountain of love and kindness chose to communicate to him by slamming his head into the door of his car during an accident. This client believed he was Joseph, the father of 'jesus.'

In the same ward, I worked with the son of jesus - he was the son because he had.... red hair. That was the proof.

Both of these clients had narcissitic features (one of them had a narcissistic personality disorder prior to the accident) and both tended to express paranoid defenses as well. One interesting feature of psychosis is that psychotics are often able to recognize psychosis in others quite well. For example, joseph and the son of jesus both realized that the other guy was suffering from a delusion. One day, when they were arguing with each other, I pointed out that the 'joseph' client should be more polite to the "son of jesus' client.... when he asked why, I sad "because he's your grandson'.

I could provide more detail, but I have to ensure that I don't reveal anything that could identify them.... but I can talk more about the concept of psychosis:

** More detail about the concept of psychosis:

Psychotic clients present as disorganized. If they are able to muster a facade of normalcy at all, it comes apart after a brief contact with you. They present other people as purple aliens - 1 dimensional and flat characterizations. However, they may also be finely attuned to the emotions of others in interactions. They may face extreme difficulties and have questions involving basic identity and basic will-to-live issues. They tend to experience psychotic transferences, where the object transferred (the therapist) is taken in internally without the observing ego playing a part. In other words, the therapist IS the threatening object. You’ll see this with paranoid clients. They are far more likely to suffer Id resistances than any other client. Anxiety is global, and they have a need to defend against a violently dangerous world. They face fears of fragmentation, even annihilation. They do best with supportive therapy, which provides them with basic safety (See Erickson). Note: psychotic patients don’t all dress up as Napoleon - it is important to realize that there are psychotic clients who function well enough to present as out patients. Additionally, any person can face a brief psychotic episode, particularly after a traumatic event.

Types of defenses: Primitive withdrawal, denial, omnipotent control (psychopaths), primitive fantasy (psychopaths), projection (paranoids), projective identification (paranoids again), disassociation,

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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(delurking) I knew a person

(delurking)

I knew a person who over the course of a few months went from a shy but very intelligent introvert, to an extremely delusional extroverted schizophrenic. The change was dramatic, and very scary to see him ranting to strangers about different dimensions and his super powers.

Obviously something changed in his brain. I don't think they know the cause of schizophrenia yet, but it seems to be beyond an individuals control. However I wonder if a person could build up in their mind a strong enough skeptical outlook to become somewhat immune to at least minor brain disturbances.

Could a person be a strong enough skeptic so that when he suddenly hears voices he won't immediately believe the voices are from god or angels? Could someone actually step back and think, "OK, I am having hallucinations, this isn't real," or does your whole perspective shift?

I've never done drugs, but I remember talking to a friend about his LSD experience. He said he hallucinated someone attacking him. I asked him why he couldn't just laugh it off as a hallucination. He replied it was like a dream, and while it is happening you really believe it.

So it seems in most cases you can't resist belief in hallucinations with skepticism alone. But I wonder if there are any "mild" cases of schizophrenia or some other brain injury, where the person is experiencing voices or other kinds of hallucinations, but just learns to live with it and not believe them. (At the end of the movie, A Beautiful Mind, Dr. Nash seems to have achieved such a state, but this was a movie and I don't know how realistic that scene was.)


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i don't think there is

i don't think there is anyway for you to distinguish when your senses are engaged whether they are engaged in something "real" or "fake"

 

psychologists have empirically (and subjectively) assigned a norm and prescribe medicines so schizophrenics and manic depressives, etc. can adjust to this norm and be a part of society.


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Psychology and Schizophrenia

psychologists have empirically (and subjectively) assigned a norm and prescribe medicines so schizophrenics and manic depressives, etc. can adjust to this norm and be a part of society.


First, Psychologists don't prescribe medicine. Psychiatrists prescribe medicine. Yes, you are right to a certain extent about the normative values placed on the behaviors that are considered disordered. However, the larger determinent of disorder is how much it is impairing and distressing the indivdiual? How much pain and suffering is it causing the person? Is it not allowing them to function at work and in the family?

psychologists have empirically (and subjectively) assigned a norm and prescribe medicines so schizophrenics and manic depressives, etc. can adjust to this norm and be a part of society.

"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."


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That makes sense to me on a

That makes sense to me on a certain level.

Obviously you have more experience working with this population than I do and probably know more about the research base.

I was wondering what you think of the conceptualization that they are hearing voices that are telling them whatever...... and due to the religious socialization of society their interpretation is that it iis God and then the delusions and so forth take on a more religious meaning.

Just a thought.

"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."


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gnbenson

gnbenson wrote:

(delurking)

I knew a person who over the course of a few months went from a shy but very intelligent introvert, to an extremely delusional extroverted schizophrenic. The change was dramatic, and very scary to see him ranting to strangers about different dimensions and his super powers.

Obviously something changed in his brain. I don't think they know the cause of schizophrenia yet, but it seems to be beyond an individuals control. However I wonder if a person could build up in their mind a strong enough skeptical outlook to become somewhat immune to at least minor brain disturbances.

Could a person be a strong enough skeptic so that when he suddenly hears voices he won't immediately believe the voices are from god or angels? Could someone actually step back and think, "OK, I am having hallucinations, this isn't real," or does your whole perspective shift?

I've never done drugs, but I remember talking to a friend about his LSD experience. He said he hallucinated someone attacking him. I asked him why he couldn't just laugh it off as a hallucination. He replied it was like a dream, and while it is happening you really believe it.

So it seems in most cases you can't resist belief in hallucinations with skepticism alone. But I wonder if there are any "mild" cases of schizophrenia or some other brain injury, where the person is experiencing voices or other kinds of hallucinations, but just learns to live with it and not believe them. (At the end of the movie, A Beautiful Mind, Dr. Nash seems to have achieved such a state, but this was a movie and I don't know how realistic that scene was.)

I can provide a secondary account of a hallucination though. The cause and effect I'll leave aside as generally irrelevant and/or unknown. And while I didn't laugh it off(I found it rather disturbing that I was percieving something that couldn't logically happen), I immediately recognized it as impossible. I also recognized that it was something only I experienced, as I was with two others at the time. After a short time the hallucination ended and I never experienced it again. I think you raise a very good question when you asked "Could a person be a strong enough skeptic so that when he suddenly hears voices he won't immediately believe the voices are from god or angels? Could someone actually step back and think, OK, I am having hallucinations, this isn't real, or does your whole perspective shift?". I don't think I have the answer to it, but I believe the answer is an important one.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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RationalSchema

RationalSchema wrote:

psychologists have empirically (and subjectively) assigned a norm and prescribe medicines so schizophrenics and manic depressives, etc. can adjust to this norm and be a part of society.


First, Psychologists don't prescribe medicine. Psychiatrists prescribe medicine. Yes, you are right to a certain extent about the normative values placed on the behaviors that are considered disordered. However, the larger determinent of disorder is how much it is impairing and distressing the indivdiual? How much pain and suffering is it causing the person? Is it not allowing them to function at work and in the family?

psychologists have empirically (and subjectively) assigned a norm and prescribe medicines so schizophrenics and manic depressives, etc. can adjust to this norm and be a part of society.

To treat a mental disorder is to make a value judgement on reality --or at least on the way the world should be perceived-- in the same way that saying "there should not be suffering" is a value judgement.The psychologist/psychiatrist doesn't have to take any role in the way a person perceives the world-he could just let the schizophrenic person be; who knows the schizophrenic may have it right, and the rest of us have been out of touch with reality the whole time. Only in the case that the psychologist practices humanistic psychology or positive psychology does he/she entail that there is actually some sort of humanness or some positive entity (psyche) associated with a human individual worth preserving, or relieving from suffering.

Another value judgment would be treating an individual with depression in the context of society and societal norms, in which case society would be the entity worth preserving from the perspective of the psychologist/psychiatrist.


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I read an interesting book

I read an interesting book years ago by Julian Jaynes called "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind." Jaynes basically argued that up until a few thousand years ago, the average person's mind functioned much like a schizophrenic. One side of the person's brain would speak and the other side would listen. So when ancient writers would be "divinely inspired" or hear the voice of angels, gods, etc., they weren't being dishonest: they were really hearing voices (albeit voices in their heads). If Jaynes' hypothesis is correct, religious experiences were closely tied to a form of schizophrenia since the time of Homer.

Also, Freud's "Rat Man" case dealt with the religious character of one of his patient's obsessional thoughts.

 

 


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"If you talk to God, you

"If you talk to God, you are praying. If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia." -Thomas Szasz  I think that sums it up.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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GnBenson lies

 GnBenson either you or your friend is lying about that LSD trip. I know with absolute 100% certainty that LSD does not cause hallucinations of that nature. Not in low doses, not in medium doses, not in very high doses. Modern researchers no longer classify LSD and other psychedellics as hallucinogens for this very reason.

 Psychedellics, for the most part, cause sensory distortions of things that do exist. They can also cause visions of patterns on surfaces and the like. A person under the influence of LSD, and other psychedellics, knows at all times that their sensory effects are just that. They do not believe that they are real. For this reason, and others, a person under the influnece of a psychedellic drug is not in a state of psychosis. Being on LSD is nothing at all like a dream, not even close. It is like being awake, knowing exactly what is going on, and knowing immediately what is external reality (i.e. real) and what is mental and internal.

 Even a person having what is called a bad trip is not in a state of psychosis. They are having an extreme anxiety attack caused by having to face the truth about themselves. Psychedelics drugs are like a combination of psychotherpist and drill sergeant. They will help you to work through your brain and get things in better order and become more rational, but you better not lie to yourself or try to hide anything. If you do the state of consciousnous your are in will kick your mental/emotional butt without mercy.

 People who have a lot of issues tend to be very prone to very bad trips. But if they persevere and work with the drug they can clean the crap out of their brain and get things in order far beyond anything that a modern pschiatrist could hope to achieve after working with a patient for decades. This can be achived in as little as two years of working with such drugs. People who are mentally and emotionally more stable to begin with tend to do much better with psychedelics from the get go and just use them to improve upon what is already there. If they have any bad trips at all they will be very mild in nature and would be better descibed as a trip with some rough edges to it.

 Psychedellics are in many ways general psychological intensifiers. They make the brain do more of what it already does. Because of this they can be very beneficial in normal everyday people. However, it should be pointed out that they can cause a psychotic reaction in one type of person. That would be a person who is already psychotic to begin with. In this case the psychedelic would exaggerate the schizophrenia that already exist in them. Research on LSD, and other psychedellics, have not unexpectedly found that while they are useful in helping everyday neutroic mixed up people they are much less helpful in treating schizophrenia. In some cases the schizophrenic may be helped to move forward by LSD therapy, but in other cases they may be moved back, in to deeper psychosis.

----------

As far as resisting belief in hallucinations with skepticism it depend entirely on the nature of the state of consciouness. If you have severe schizophrenia then no. This is because you are truely pschotic and not in control of you brain enough. If you're on LSD then yes, it's the easiet thing in the world. You don't even need skepticism cause there in no tendenacy to believe your "hallucinations" while on LSD. It is self evident that that are sensory effects and not real. It's not something that even requires a conscious effort.

 To believe that your hallucinations are real and external on psychedellics would take a conscious effort to lie to oneself. This is exacly what people do in primitive shamanistic religions. They deceive themselves and pretend that psychedellics take them into the spirit world. Some "hipies" back in the 60's did this crap too.

 It should also be pointed out that people with very mild schizophrenia often do know they are hallucinating and with effort that their delusional thoughts are just fanatasy. Their are also people that hallucinate regularly but are not at all schizophenic. They have a type of non psychotic perceptual disorder. These people have no delusional thoughts at all. They are aware at all times that their hallucinations are nothing more than senorsy effects.

---------

 

Buy the way, your friend has never taken LSD. Just thought you should know. Or maybe your friend doesn't exist and you made him up for the sake of your post.

 


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Hello, you are wrong

Hello it is possible to distinguish between hallucinations and reality. It is perceptually self-evident. You see every thing you see or percieve is in some sense real. It's just a question of- what is it?

You can't percieve something that does not exist cause if something does not exist then it is nothing, nothing at all, and thus thier would be nothing to percieve.

Hallucination and real things, they are attributes of you, of your sensory systems, of your nervous system. They are onlly "not real" in the sense that they are not in external reality.

When a sane person experience a hallucnination they know it immdeiately cause it does not apear to be in externaly reality, not really. It appears to be exaclty what it is: a sensory effect integrated with his awareness of external relaity. An insane person may believe his hallucniation are in external reality, but this is because he is ISANE. He can not consider the self evident fact before him. He is taken in my the superficial and forms delusions from it.

In other words, halucination, do not look real. They do not look like external reality. They look like sensory effetcs. This is true even of very vivid hallucninations of say a person that is not there. A sane person can see this instantly, a crazy person may not. Talk with a schizophenic who is well medicated or in remisson. They will confirm this. Theyb will also tell you that sane people who have no experience with thses issues are full of all kinds of misconceptions about what it is like to be schizophenic and what it is like to hallucinate.


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 Well hello anonymous

 

Well hello anonymous poster.

 

Please allow me to introduce myself. I have been a psychiatric social worker for about a quarter of a century. Before that, I spent a few years as a stoner. Based on those specific experiences, I can tell that you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

You have no clue about states of the mind and you clearly have no clue what street drugs can do to a person. You have my permission to remove your head from your ass any time you decide that it is too dark to read in there.

 

You should read what todangst had to say in this thread. On certain specific points, I could make a professional point that he is improperly conflating TBI and schizophrenia. However, since he hasn't posted here is quite a while, I choose to reserve that unless he reads this and responds.

 

In any case, he makes a valid point that people who have broken from objective reality will generally take up specific delusions based on prior cultural contact. This does not have to be religion though.

 

And Italian person might think that he has an issue with the Mafia. A Jewish person might have an issue with the WW2 German government. More recently, we are seeing people who think that they have issues with computers who are somehow affecting them remotely. It is all in what you have previous experience with.

 

Religion being the major cultural influence that it is for so many people, it should come as little surprise that it presents as a common motif in patients who present as psychotic. However, it is almost a done deal that it will be a religion which an individual has had previous cultural contact with.

 

Really, if you go to the heart of the bible belt, you will have no great trouble finding patients who have specific Christian ideations as part of their psychosis. You will have a fairly hard time finding patients who think that they are the Aztec serpent god though. Would that hold true in the Yucatan peninsula though? I have no direct experience to address that but I would not be all that surprised if such were the case.

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Another dumbass necroposter.

Another dumbass necroposter. How quaint...


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 Indeed Kap.   Anyway,

 

Indeed Kap.

 

Anyway, there is a not very subtle difference between schizophrenia and religion. Much as anyone around here might have it that religion could be reduced to something as simple as a clear disease condition, the fact is that diseases of the mind are really complicated things that are never broken down to simple matters which may be trivially dealt with.

 

Professionally, I know a great number of people who have a great number of issues. For the most part, religion is a factor for most of them but it has little to do with the clinical presentation.

 

 

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Anonymous 556633 wrote:Hello

Anonymous 556633 wrote:

Hello it is possible to distinguish between hallucinations and reality. It is perceptually self-evident. You see every thing you see or percieve is in some sense real. It's just a question of- what is it?

Everything is perceptually self evident if if the sense you use to perceive is vision for example.  To touch on your earlier post, and to draw from my personal experience with LSD, it is impossible at the time to determine reality.  

Anonymous 556633 wrote:

You can't percieve something that does not exist cause if something does not exist then it is nothing, nothing at all, and thus thier would be nothing to percieve.

 

I'm not even sure what you mean by that? Are you trying to make an epistemological statement on rationalism v.s. empiricism?  Are you able to perceive number 7?  What you wrote makes no sense.

Anonymous 556633 wrote:

Hallucination and real things, they are attributes of you, of your sensory systems, of your nervous system. They are onlly "not real" in the sense that they are not in external reality.

huh? 

So how many types of reality are there? Do you normally get paid of internally real dollars, or externally real dollars, or transcendently real dollars perhaps?  There's only one reality, if you perceive something other then this reality, you are delusional and your delusions are not real.

Anonymous 556633 wrote:
 

When a sane person experience a hallucnination they know it immdeiately cause it does not apear to be in externaly reality, not really. It appears to be exaclty what it is: a sensory effect integrated with his awareness of external relaity. An insane person may believe his hallucniation are in external reality, but this is because he is ISANE. He can not consider the self evident fact before him. He is taken in my the superficial and forms delusions from it.

wtf? lol depending on your definition of 'sane' a SANE person (of sound mind) is unable to experience hallucinations.  If that SANE person became temporarily or permanently INSANE, and said person had no expectation of said transition (such as knowingly taking LSD) it would be very difficult for them to distinguish reality from delusion.  I'm sure they would realize something is completely wrong, but they would not be able to distinguish if a dog is real or imaginary. 

Anonymous 556633 wrote:

In other words, halucination, do not look real. They do not look like external reality. They look like sensory effetcs. This is true even of very vivid hallucninations of say a person that is not there. A sane person can see this instantly, a crazy person may not. Talk with a schizophenic who is well medicated or in remisson. They will confirm this. Theyb will also tell you that sane people who have no experience with thses issues are full of all kinds of misconceptions about what it is like to be schizophenic and what it is like to hallucinate.

I can tell you from personal experience, that while under the influence the hallucinations seem most definitely real.  In retrospect they are easily distinguished as such, but if you take LSD for the rest of your life, you would have no way of knowing if what you saw was real or not.  

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ktulu wrote:huh? So how

Ktulu wrote:

huh? 

So how many types of reality are there? Do you normally get paid of internally real dollars, or externally real dollars, or transcendently real dollars perhaps?  There's only one reality, if you perceive something other then this reality, you are delusional and your delusions are not real.

It is impossible to say for sure, how many types of reality are there. We may only presume, that all the reality is consistent and has its logic. If we perceive something inconsistent or illogical, then either it is a hallucination or our senses do not perceive it correctly. 

Ktulu wrote:
 I can tell you from personal experience, that while under the influence the hallucinations seem most definitely real.  In retrospect they are easily distinguished as such, but if you take LSD for the rest of your life, you would have no way of knowing if what you saw was real or not.  

Correct me if I'm  wrong, but LSD hallucinations should be extremely fleeting and ever-changing. After several days you should be able to distinguish what is real according to its permanence, regularity or consistency with other hallucinations. Hopefully LSD doesn't shut down the logical mind.

Anyway, from your point of view I could be called a permanently hallucinating person (usually not sight or hearing but touch) and yet I do not perceive a random hallucinations like on drugs. I perceive an extension of the senses, orderly, consistent, obedient and easy to use. True, it has not much use in daily life, but it's quite useful for practices like a kind of Laya yoga or Reiki-related techniques. Thanks to thorough observations, learning, practice and cooperation with other people I was able to assure my doubts and decide, that it's time to expand the boundary of reality, not my medical file. 

The point is, a sane person will doubt and investigate hallucinations by the universal standards of logic, an insane person will believe them. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote: Correct me

Luminon wrote:

 Correct me if I'm  wrong, but LSD hallucinations should be extremely fleeting and ever-changing. After several days you should be able to distinguish what is real according to its permanence, regularity or consistency with other hallucinations. Hopefully LSD doesn't shut down the logical mind.

Anyway, from your point of view I could be called a permanently hallucinating person (usually not sight or hearing but touch) and yet I do not perceive a random hallucinations like on drugs. I perceive an extension of the senses, orderly, consistent, obedient and easy to use. True, it has not much use in daily life, but it's quite useful for practices like a kind of Laya yoga or Reiki-related techniques. Thanks to thorough observations, learning, practice and cooperation with other people I was able to assure my doubts and decide, that it's time to expand the boundary of reality, not my medical file. 

The point is, a sane person will doubt and investigate hallucinations by the universal standards of logic, an insane person will believe them. 

When I took LSD, logic did indeed shut down for the duration.  You do go in and out during the high, it works in waves.  For example, my friend and I spend 20 minutes trying to tie our shoes, after which I realized  how it works and did it perfectly, only to stare at a clock for 30 minutes trying to figure out what time it was five minutes after.  I stopped taking it precisely because my logic was non existent during the trip.  I have many such anecdotes but bottom line is, while the hallucinations were happening, I was not aware that I was hallucinating.  10 minutes later it was quite evident, and so on, up and down.  

Also, I was expecting to hallucinate because I knowingly took the LSD, in a scenario where I was given it without my knowledge, I would have realized something is very wrong, but would have not been able to distinguish between reality and hallucination.

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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

 

Anyway, there is a not very subtle difference between schizophrenia and religion. 

 

 

  One of the most interesting and thought provoking comments I ever read suggested the "OT" was schizophrenic.

 

 

 

 

 


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 GnBenson either you or your friend is lying about that LSD trip. I know with absolute 100% certainty that LSD does not cause hallucinations of that nature. Not in low doses, not in medium doses, not in very high doses. Modern researchers no longer classify LSD and other psychedellics as hallucinogens for this very reason.

 Psychedellics, for the most part, cause sensory distortions of things that do exist. They can also cause visions of patterns on surfaces and the like. A person under the influence of LSD, and other psychedellics, knows at all times that their sensory effects are just that. They do not believe that they are real. For this reason, and others, a person under the influnece of a psychedellic drug is not in a state of psychosis. Being on LSD is nothing at all like a dream, not even close. It is like being awake, knowing exactly what is going on, and knowing immediately what is external reality (i.e. real) and what is mental and internal.

 Even a person having what is called a bad trip is not in a state of psychosis. They are having an extreme anxiety attack caused by having to face the truth about themselves. Psychedelics drugs are like a combination of psychotherpist and drill sergeant. They will help you to work through your brain and get things in better order and become more rational, but you better not lie to yourself or try to hide anything. If you do the state of consciousnous your are in will kick your mental/emotional butt without mercy.

 People who have a lot of issues tend to be very prone to very bad trips. But if they persevere and work with the drug they can clean the crap out of their brain and get things in order far beyond anything that a modern pschiatrist could hope to achieve after working with a patient for decades. This can be achived in as little as two years of working with such drugs. People who are mentally and emotionally more stable to begin with tend to do much better with psychedelics from the get go and just use them to improve upon what is already there. If they have any bad trips at all they will be very mild in nature and would be better descibed as a trip with some rough edges to it.

 Psychedellics are in many ways general psychological intensifiers. They make the brain do more of what it already does. Because of this they can be very beneficial in normal everyday people. However, it should be pointed out that they can cause a psychotic reaction in one type of person. That would be a person who is already psychotic to begin with. In this case the psychedelic would exaggerate the schizophrenia that already exist in them. Research on LSD, and other psychedellics, have not unexpectedly found that while they are useful in helping everyday neutroic mixed up people they are much less helpful in treating schizophrenia. In some cases the schizophrenic may be helped to move forward by LSD therapy, but in other cases they may be moved back, in to deeper psychosis.

----------

As far as resisting belief in hallucinations with skepticism it depend entirely on the nature of the state of consciouness. If you have severe schizophrenia then no. This is because you are truely pschotic and not in control of you brain enough. If you're on LSD then yes, it's the easiet thing in the world. You don't even need skepticism cause there in no tendenacy to believe your "hallucinations" while on LSD. It is self evident that that are sensory effects and not real. It's not something that even requires a conscious effort.

 To believe that your hallucinations are real and external on psychedellics would take a conscious effort to lie to oneself. This is exacly what people do in primitive shamanistic religions. They deceive themselves and pretend that psychedellics take them into the spirit world. Some "hipies" back in the 60's did this crap too.

 It should also be pointed out that people with very mild schizophrenia often do know they are hallucinating and with effort that their delusional thoughts are just fanatasy. Their are also people that hallucinate regularly but are not at all schizophenic. They have a type of non psychotic perceptual disorder. These people have no delusional thoughts at all. They are aware at all times that their hallucinations are nothing more than senorsy effects.

---------

 

Buy the way, your friend has never taken LSD. Just thought you should know. Or maybe your friend doesn't exist and you made him up for the sake of your post.

 

I agree. I tripped a least a hundred times or so and probably more from 1968 to 1978 and you do not believe that the psychoactive occurance is real. It is that simple. Perhaps with Jimson Weed.  I  have luekemia and so am being treated with VFend which protects me from any type of fungus. The pleasent side effect for several days were visualiaztions that were more precise than LSD in many ways with out the intense background effect.  In fact immediate and precise visualizations were possible.


What automatic visions I had why very detailed were still understood to be exactly what they were mental images.

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Ktulu wrote:Luminon

Ktulu wrote:

Luminon wrote:

 Correct me if I'm  wrong, but LSD hallucinations should be extremely fleeting and ever-changing. After several days you should be able to distinguish what is real according to its permanence, regularity or consistency with other hallucinations. Hopefully LSD doesn't shut down the logical mind.

Anyway, from your point of view I could be called a permanently hallucinating person (usually not sight or hearing but touch) and yet I do not perceive a random hallucinations like on drugs. I perceive an extension of the senses, orderly, consistent, obedient and easy to use. True, it has not much use in daily life, but it's quite useful for practices like a kind of Laya yoga or Reiki-related techniques. Thanks to thorough observations, learning, practice and cooperation with other people I was able to assure my doubts and decide, that it's time to expand the boundary of reality, not my medical file. 

The point is, a sane person will doubt and investigate hallucinations by the universal standards of logic, an insane person will believe them. 

When I took LSD, logic did indeed shut down for the duration.  You do go in and out during the high, it works in waves.  For example, my friend and I spend 20 minutes trying to tie our shoes, after which I realized  how it works and did it perfectly, only to stare at a clock for 30 minutes trying to figure out what time it was five minutes after.  I stopped taking it precisely because my logic was non existent during the trip.  I have many such anecdotes but bottom line is, while the hallucinations were happening, I was not aware that I was hallucinating.  10 minutes later it was quite evident, and so on, up and down.  

Also, I was expecting to hallucinate because I knowingly took the LSD, in a scenario where I was given it without my knowledge, I would have realized something is very wrong, but would have not been able to distinguish between reality and hallucination.

Hi Ktulu my logic and perception increased from LSD. Of course that was the good stuff back in 1968 to 78. By the late 70's it the quality had diminished.  It was control of attention that seem to allude me at times. Sometimes as you indicated you were focused for a long while on one object at other times similar ro pot you wandered.  Synthetic Mescaline was mellower and STP lasted a couple three days. One tends to have an organic and physical religious experience in which all is one. or at least I did.


 

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Ktulu wrote: Luminon wrote:

Ktulu wrote:

Luminon wrote:

 Correct me if I'm  wrong, but LSD hallucinations should be extremely fleeting and ever-changing. After several days you should be able to distinguish what is real according to its permanence, regularity or consistency with other hallucinations. Hopefully LSD doesn't shut down the logical mind.

Anyway, from your point of view I could be called a permanently hallucinating person (usually not sight or hearing but touch) and yet I do not perceive a random hallucinations like on drugs. I perceive an extension of the senses, orderly, consistent, obedient and easy to use. True, it has not much use in daily life, but it's quite useful for practices like a kind of Laya yoga or Reiki-related techniques. Thanks to thorough observations, learning, practice and cooperation with other people I was able to assure my doubts and decide, that it's time to expand the boundary of reality, not my medical file. 

The point is, a sane person will doubt and investigate hallucinations by the universal standards of logic, an insane person will believe them. 

When I took LSD, logic did indeed shut down for the duration.  You do go in and out during the high, it works in waves.  For example, my friend and I spend 20 minutes trying to tie our shoes, after which I realized  how it works and did it perfectly, only to stare at a clock for 30 minutes trying to figure out what time it was five minutes after.  I stopped taking it precisely because my logic was non existent during the trip.  I have many such anecdotes but bottom line is, while the hallucinations were happening, I was not aware that I was hallucinating.  10 minutes later it was quite evident, and so on, up and down.  

Also, I was expecting to hallucinate because I knowingly took the LSD, in a scenario where I was given it without my knowledge, I would have realized something is very wrong, but would have not been able to distinguish between reality and hallucination.

Hi Ktulu my logic and perception increased from LSD. Of course that was the good stuff back in 1968 to 78. By the late 70's it the quality had diminished.  It was control of attention that seem to allude me at times. Sometimes as you indicated you were focused for a long while on one object at other times similar ro pot you wandered.  Synthetic Mescaline was mellower and STP lasted a couple three days. One tends to have an organic and physical religious experience in which all is one. or at least I did.

 

 

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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TGBaker wrote:Ktulu wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

Ktulu wrote:

When I took LSD, logic did indeed shut down for the duration.  You do go in and out during the high, it works in waves.  For example, my friend and I spend 20 minutes trying to tie our shoes, after which I realized  how it works and did it perfectly, only to stare at a clock for 30 minutes trying to figure out what time it was five minutes after.  I stopped taking it precisely because my logic was non existent during the trip.  I have many such anecdotes but bottom line is, while the hallucinations were happening, I was not aware that I was hallucinating.  10 minutes later it was quite evident, and so on, up and down.  

Also, I was expecting to hallucinate because I knowingly took the LSD, in a scenario where I was given it without my knowledge, I would have realized something is very wrong, but would have not been able to distinguish between reality and hallucination.

Hi Ktulu my logic and perception increased from LSD. Of course that was the good stuff back in 1968 to 78. By the late 70's it the quality had diminished.  It was control of attention that seem to allude me at times. Sometimes as you indicated you were focused for a long while on one object at other times similar ro pot you wandered.  Synthetic Mescaline was mellower and STP lasted a couple three days. One tends to have an organic and physical religious experience in which all is one. or at least I did.

I know different types of LSD trip differently, likewise both my friend and I tripped differently, but for myself, they were indistinguishable from reality.  I have walked across a field to talk to a friend I was convinced was there, only to see what it was obviously a bush.  Again, on closer inspection, and while on the low of the wave, I would realize it was a hallucination.  

This is like the quote from The Matrix:

"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? "

You wouldn't know the difference. Smiling

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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 TGBaker wrote:Hi Ktulu my

 

TGBaker wrote:
Hi Ktulu my logic and perception increased from LSD. Of course that was the good stuff back in 1968 to 78. By the late 70's it the quality had diminished. It was control of attention that seem to allude me at times. Sometimes as you indicated you were focused for a long while on one object at other times similar ro pot you wandered. Synthetic Mescaline was mellower and STP lasted a couple three days. One tends to have an organic and physical religious experience in which all is one. or at least I did.

 

Hey Tommy, I missed the 60's myself. Really, when John Glenn set foot on the moon, I was so young that I was most impressed at watching TV made my my next door neighbor's TV camera (he was an electrical engineer for CBS labs). In any case, I remember the stuff from the 80's and 90's myself.

 

The main difference between my acid and yours was that the potency was lower. Well, we had four way hits that corrected for that but if you actually broke them up, they were supposedly in the range of 50-100 mics per hit.

 

Then too, hasn't there always been bad acid around? I know that every time something new hit the street, we would wait a couple of weeks to see what other people thought. Heck but it was no real problem to buy a couple of tabs of stuff that nobody had any issues with. That would last for the time we needed to find out if it was good.

 

As far as telling real from illusion, my memory was that it also depended on just how much one took. If you only got a little high, then a three minute song might seem to go on for a couple of hours but in the back of the mind, you kinda knew what was up with that. On the other hand, if you got fairly well lit, then if you did sort of know, you really didn't care. A couple of examples might help.

 

Once I was mildly tripping in the public library. Walking across the floor, my feet were sinking into the carpet like it was made from pudding or something. But I was only a little bit lit and I knew that was because I was tripping.

 

Another time, also in the library, I realized that the book shelves closest to me were two shelves tall. Then next ones were three shelves tall, then four shelves, five shelves and so on. I remember thinking that they might just go on for a good long way. If I went up them, I might get somewhere cool. I don't recall thinking about getting to the second floor that way so much as getting somewhere worth going. So yah, that was real enough at the time.

 

Now, nobody ever said anything to me about trying to walk across the book shelves that way. However, given that people used to tell me what I had done a day or so later, I tend to think that I did not actually make a stoned ass of myself.

 

Well at least not that time. I used to do all sorts of stoned moves. One time, I remember that the dude I was hanging with was far more balls off tripping than I was when we passed a bank. I whipped out whatever card had a magnetic strip and opened the door to the ATM and shoved him inside. Some time later (it could not have been very long) I was walking down the same bit of road and he was jumping around slamming himself against the window like a caged gorilla. I kept walking. When I ran into him the next day, he told me what had happened to him and I administratively declined to mention to him how that came about.

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