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PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
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RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
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You don't have to go and buy a bible. Just go to www.biblegateway.com and read it there.
It'll save some money.
myspace.com/miyao
Ahh, thanks.
The typical passages cited as relating to the story of Satan's fall are:
Revelation 12:7-13
Luke 10:17-24 - In particular, 18: "[Jesus] replied, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.'"
Isaiah 14:12-17 - literally speaking to the king of Babylon, often interpreted as also referring to Satan's fall
Ezekiel 28:11-19 - literally speaking to the king of Tyre, often interpreted as also referring to Satan's fall; perhaps stronger than the other passages, as it refers to a "guardian cherub" who grew proud and was thrown to earth
So no, there is nowhere in the bible where it says "once upon a time, there was an angel who did some bad stuff and got kicked out, and now he's the devil" in any sort of undeniably obvious way. Those passages are the ones the story comes from, however, so it isn't just a made up wives' tale that has no base in scripture (rather, as I'm sure most of you believe, it is a made up wives' tale that is based in scripture). Whether or not you think those verses are BS when it comes to the story of Satan, that's where it originated as far as anyone can tell.
By the way, I found this information with a quick Google of "Satan's fall."
Check out Zoroastrianism. They had concepts such as paradise, bad guy, good guy in the sky LONG before the Jews/xians who want to claim exclusivity to this. Logic seeeeeeeeeeeeez? No, sorry, they can't, but they insist it was revealed to them first. Hmmmmm.
EDUCATION! EDUCATION! EDUCATION!
So it's just as I feared, discussing Satan, his role & even existance/story/logic is impossible as there's nothing to back up thoughts and opinions on either side. The religious nutters will just be relying on heresay and acting as though it is "gospel truth".
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/
Couple things guys
1. There are basically only TWO references in the bible that are thought to refer about the fall of Satan in the bible; Revelation 12 and Ezekiel 28. The reference you put about Isaiah is not valid nor is the one from Luke. Luke was taken out of context as Jesus was speaking to those he had sent out to spread the word and when they returned and spoke of the things they had done, he gave them his vision of evil being defeated.
2. As to Isaiah, this is a common mistranslation about the word Lucifer. Lucifer DOES NOT EQUAL Satan. (there is a thread about this here).
3. Ezekiel, as explained in the thread above, may not have been written with Satan in mind either. A common trend throughout the bible is to make reference to people, not spiritual beings (bringing up a point, Satan as an angel is also a misconception - that is not in the bible either) - reference the following thread
4. As to Revelation, well because of the symbolism in that book and its generally symbolic nature, its a bit hard to really understand if that chapter is past or future. Generally, it is not a book that is referred to often because of the possibilities for misinterpretation so, basically, nope...don't use it.
I'm not exactly sure as to why Zoroastrianism is brought up time and time again since Judism came first by a few hundred years with Abraham.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Raz:
I posted this on the "other" thread concerning this:
"Dont wanna beat a dead horse, but my years of researching this tells me that the captive Israelites in Babylon borrowed heavily from the Zoroastrianism/Sumerian/Babylonian myths to form their beliefs. If you have peer reviewed scholarly works pointing to the contrary, by all means, share. I am here to learn.
If their god was unique and the *ONE TRUE* god, wouldn't that god have attempted to look just a little different than those others? Just say'n ((shrugg))
"
EDUCATION! EDUCATION! EDUCATION!
Apparently, devil mythology came into Judaism after influence from Zoroastrianism. Before then, Satan was God's prosecuting angel (in Job) and the snake in Eden was just an animal that got a bit above it's station and has been an enemy of mankind ever since.
It was the influence of Zoroastrianism, among other mythologies that embedded themselves into the Jewish culture, that led to the re-intepreting. (so I've been told... you probably know more about this than me.
The story of Lucifer is told piece by piece throughout the entire scriptures. The bulk of the story is told in the Book of Isaiah Chapter 14:12-16
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, sond of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken nations. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most high. Yet thou shalt be brought down to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying 'is the man that made the earth tremble, that did shake kingdoms?"
tree may I suggest you re-read this thread, in full, and please visit the threads I made reference to...especially this one:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rook_hawkins/biblical_errancy/4534
There is a bit more research you need to understand about Satan, beginning with the fact that his name is not Lucifer.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire