Where is the evidence against God? Do you have it?
Posted on: September 7, 2007 - 1:11am
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Where is the evidence against God? Do you have it?
I am a person who believes in God. I believe that God created the universe/world/etc. Regardless of the religious belief that I believe in, my question is can you prove that God does not exist? I mean, no matter what I say as to the evidence of the existence of God it really boils down to faith on both sides of the issue. However, on the other hand, can you prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that God doesn't exist? Forget religious intolerance/human issues/or whatever - (during the course of the earth's history), prove to me that there is no God and I'll convert. The problem is, you can't. Or, can you? Please, no insults. I just asked a question. We can debate faith later. Let's start with the basics. Thanks.
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I am no theologian (though I hope to be), but omnibenevolence is not part of Gods character. God DOES love all people, but there are two levels of that love. 1. Benevolent love. Love that everyone has, but it is nto the second type of love...2) Saving. The saving love is the love only bestowed from God to His children (the ones who accept him).
Also, my life isn't planned out...but my salvation is. That is what is planned out.
(assuming you will go with a belief in God just to argue this point of His choosing me). Because God is all powerful and soverieng in his love, he is not evil We are the evil ones We broke his laws, thus making us evil. Because of that, we should all go to hell. But, since God wrath was satisfied through Him crushing JEsus, then some can go to heaven. He isn't evil, we are, he isn't power hungry, he has all power.
What makes me deserve God...NOTHING. That is the major thing. i don't deserve God. That is what is so amazing about his grace. I deserve nothing. He just chose me. I am not the only one chosen. If you are chosen, then you can not escape it, you will be saved.
Keep in mind, this is not the belief of all Chrisitans. This reflects one point of something called Calvinism. In contrast some Christians believe in Arminianism, which is "I chose God, he dind't choose me". This is a hot issue in Christianity.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Not to highjack the thread, but I was wondering on what you base this interpretation of hate other than rosy optimism. It would seem that one could just as easily assert that love existed only in comparison or contrast to a thing which one did not hate. We could then say that all was actually hate.
Of course, I would not agree with either of these definitions of love and hate as I can not see any evidence for them being opposites, or in any other way linked or intertwined, but instead see them as manifestations of separate physical processes, evolutionarily (?) motivated reactions to external stimuli occuring within the human body. Love and hate don't actually seem to be opposites at all but rather different and wholly distinct behavioral phenomenon.
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
You do realize that every single monotheistic contemporary religion claims the same thing about its god? Please explain how you are certain that the god of your religion is the correct one, and not the god of islam, or the god of judaism.
You just stated above that the saving love is only bestowed upon those who "accept him." This means you must make a choice. So, therefore, which is it? Do you have to choose to be saved, or is it "planned out?"
If your god is all-poweful, then please explain to the class how an all-powerful, all-loving god could allow the evil to happen at all? Also, is your god omnipotent? If so, then he knew of the evil before it occurred. If he already knows who will break his laws and who will not, there's no way to choose to not break the laws. If you are damned to hell for breaking laws that god knew you would break before your conception, how is what god is doing not the most evil act ever seen across human history?
He made us, and he may or may not already know who is evil and who isn't. If this isn't the biggest raw deal ever invented, then I don't know what is. If this god truly exists, then he can go fuck himself, in my opinion.
Such a masochist. You'd make a good bottom.
"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."
Why would a god want to make worthless beings? Is that how any loving, intelligent human would approach things? Is this god only capable of making worthlessness?
And if people were worthless, why would this god make humans:
the center of his attention
the focus of his emotions
the object of his justic and need for bloodlust vengence?
How can people be both worthless and yet the pinnacle of the work of an omnipotent being?
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
God is obviously on a quest to create the most worthless being possible.
(The existence of presuppositionalists, creationists, and Biblical inerrantists indicates that he is rapidly approaching his goal.)
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Did you expect to come on here and dodge my questions, or did you decide to do that after I asked them?
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The infalliable one hath spoken!!!!! glorious art his words!!
I dont think hes coming back.
1. I have a holistic view of the world based on the sciences; Not a narrow view of the world based on mythology.
2. No evidence for a god. None. Zero. Zilch. Period.
3. Lots of scientific evidence that does not absolutely disprove the idea of god, but is so extremely corrosive to it, that it is only reasonable to reject it.
4. The whole idea is completely ridiculous.
I'm in the mood for short answers, so that's all you get. Goodnight.
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
I'm not inclined to agree, AiiA, can you think of an example?
I respect your pragmatism. I'm wouldn't say I'm so sure as that about his conscious intent, especially the thinking in circles bit, which rings just a little bit overly cynical to me. However in any case Lao Tzu is not the only philosopher that I feel affinity for, but I don't mind answering to Taoism, all the same, The Tao is an encompassing theology.
Absolutely respond, there's nothing wrong with that. And, when we do, our response is rarely measured as it comes unconsciously, so for that reason we'll probably reflect on it anyway at some time and at this time we evolve our own mind especially if we look deeper at ourselves, as opposed to whitewash vindication of actions we might regret.
But note that's not as deep as the philosophy goes, it does press to the point where your responses to conflict change and become more inwardly directed. Though you may find the notion insulting to your intelligence, yes, the accepted wisdom is that more can be, and is, achieved through consciousness than physical action.
Yes we do project our self interests, hence breadth is important in practice of something like Tao. So first thing to cultivate is an understanding of how immense a consciousness is, that is, to realise you can handle that much thinking and get on with living at the same time. In a nutshell that is something very likeable about eastern philosophy, it seeks first to raise the child and only after to ask it 'be a man', alot of western traditions fall way short of this wisdom and commence flagellating at the earliest convenience. To my mind thats not merely an inhumane idea, it's also a backwards one, people are good, and want to be good, that's what is innate, even the doctrine western tradition is based on does say this, it's ignored at whim, though.
So anyhow, mainly, you could say I follow the Tao, but not strictly in any such sense, the world is full of great ideas and stories, I couldn't pinpoint one for you, and I guess, overall, I wouldbe known as a 'seeker' and that's as close as I get to having a neat label for what I believe.
Cheers AiiA
El.
Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist
www.mathematicianspictures.com
Religion sets itself as almost another god-figure in peoples lives. Going to church on Sudnay doens't make you saved, yet people think that if tehy go they are and that that...lies. The wacky religous people are the ones who are standing on the street corner yelling "you're going to hell" to everyone...they do that because its part of their religous tradition. I do not need to have lunch with Jesus to see that it is plane in God's word that the 'religion' people worship is evil. And I didn't even touch on Muslims, etc.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
I'm not using the mother thing as proof of a relationship with God, I'm using it to say I can not prove my relationship with him to you...outside of my actions Charles Spurgeon once said "Is it not probably true that the selfishness of Christians is the main reason for the
slow progress of Christianity?" The only way to prove I am a Christian is my words. Truth be told, if you see me in the streets, we could be best friends. You couldn't tell me apart from any one else if you had to pick me in a lineup, but if I show Christ through my actions, thats the only way you can know I am a Christian. I can't gie you some mathematical equation to prove my relationship...htats just not possible.
And yes, you can see my God. You will see my God on judgement day. Whether that is joyus or shameful for you is all between you and God. Your life isn't over yet and I cant judge you, so all I will say is you will meet Him. You'll ask for proof...once again, I aint got it. Get used to me saying it, cause proof aint what God cares about.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Not true actually. Christians don't even agree on that statement.
Why is my God the ONE? Well, first, I'll say this...the god of Islam, Judaism, and the God of Christianity all started with the same thing. It wasn't until the story of Abraham the muslims split. Secondly, although tehre are denominations taht are grouped as Christian, the have a different God than the Christian God. And now I will answer your quesiton. And the answer is.....my relationship with God. As I grow in my relationship with Him, I know more about Him. I realize the God of Islam isn't soveriegn, and the God of Judaism isn't merciful, or just.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Why do people always try to threaten you with the wrath of their petty gods? Don’t you think that if we were afraid of the great ooga-booga in the sky we’d already be cowering in the pews next to you? It’s just not very impressive. Can you offer anything else?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
He didn't. We made ourselves worthless
Because he loves us.
Because he loves us!
Because God is a just God. We broke hHis laws, and those who are not saved will recieve that justice. Those who are, will be spared His justice.
Me being worthless is a humility thing. When I say I am worthless, I am saying I am worthless to God. Compared to His glory, His (as you used the word) Omnipotence, I am nothing. I am (every person is) the pinacle of His creation, yet we are only a fraction of His glory. Get what I'm saying?
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
So, what you're saying Crossover, is that it all came from Judaism which stems from even older views of God(s) which include:
Egpytian Mythology
Mesopotanian Mythology
Neolithic Religion
Etc.
What makes YOUR religion any different and correct than these?
Who tried to threaten you with the wrath of god in this discussion?
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Anyone with your weakness could come in here and say the same things about their god. “Who’ll be laughing when Thor’s hammer finally drops?” so on and so forth. It’s completely baseless, and you have to realize that no one with a capacity for critical thought will be swayed by that.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
You are missing the point. You can't use your mother as an example of a relationship that can't be proven, because it can be proven. Therefore, to explain how your experiences can't be understood by someone else, you'll have to think up another analogy.
No one doubts that you are a Christian. The question is if you've had experiences that suggest the presence of god. So far, you have not provided an experience that would be convincing even to you, much less to someone else.
For me to see god on judgment day would require that there is a judgment day, which is a completely unfounded notion. How have your experiences even suggested to you that such a thing exists?
ummmmmm
i know the word "wrath" never was stated explicitly but it's quite clear if you read between the lines that say "his justice" and "judgement day" i mean we all know you're not talking about a slap on the wrist here
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
I wasnt threatening anyone. I was stating a belief.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Once again, stating a belief
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Judaism doesn't stem from these religions. BUT, assuming it did the 3 Biggest things that seperate Christianity from Judaism, Egyptian mythology, etc. are:
1. The Trinity. While early Judaism knew of God, they did not know of the three in one, the Godhead. After Jesus came, and the holy Spirit sealed us, the trinity was revealed. The Jews, and Egyptians, etc. deny this...and thus worship a different God.
2. The Divinity of christ. Chrisitans are the only ones who believe in the divinity of Christ.
3. The ressurection of Christ. Speaks for itself.
I could go on and on and on about what seperates Christians from those religions (and what seperates denominations in Christianity), but those are 3 CORE differences.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Yes. You were stating a belief that we're going to get God's judgment if we don't convert. "Those who are not saved will recieve [sic] that justice". We all know what that notion of "justice" is.
"And yes, you can see my God. You will see my God on judgement day. Whether that is joyus or shameful for you is all between you and God. Your life isn't over yet and I cant judge you, so all I will say is you will meet Him." That's not a very veiled threat, there, Crossover.
I'm getting an image of a mob enforcer, walking around a small shop, asking the owner for his protection money, saying it'd be a real shame if somethin' bad were to happen to your nice little store, wouldn't it? You don't wanna get saved? Okay, friend. I'm just saying, you're gonna meet God eventually... it could be a joyous occasion... could be shameful. You don't want it to be shameful, do ya? Yeah, you know what happens with shameful, dontcha? Better get saved, just in case, you know? Otherwise, you never know what'll happen. Right?
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
It does.
So what? Is there some independent rule which states trinitarian = correct?
So what? buddhists are the only ones who believe in the divinity of buddha.
So what? christ is neither the first nor the last instance of a resurrected god. Speaks for itself indeed...as a cheap knockoff myth.
I wouldn't doubt it.
There are no theists on operating tables.
That's a great image, Pascal's protection racket. I think it would make a cool comic. If only I had some level of artistic talent.
Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!
I love this post.
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Yes Crossover, Judaism does stem from these beliefs. All religion, just like science, morality, education, laws, etc. all stem from the same places... the culture/society that had it originally.
Your belief in, techincally, three gods, is not different. You claim monotheism but you shout polytheism. A direct contradiction. This isn't one of those "If you believed you'd understand thing" because people believe in monotheistic and polytheistic religions but not both.
Furthermore, the egyptians had a living god that died and was resurrected. To expand even further, even more ancient civilizations believed that the sun god died every night and was resurrected every day.
#2. Is irrelevant.
One day, i shall find you... horribly torture, and kill you... and possibly molest your corpse after words...
Im not threatening you, im just telling you what i believe will happen
(i luv how it works both ways ^_^)
What Would Kharn Do?
Brilliant! Is that where we got the term "Godfather"?
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
From an atheist's perspective, it's more like that Monty Python sketch about the mob...
You know the one... two mobsters come into the headquarters of a major military official. They strut around, and one of them (played by Michael Palin) says to the uniformed guard:
"You got some nice lookin' tanks out there on the field, buddy... some nice big guns and anti-aircraft cannons and such... it'd be an aweful shame if some one were to come along and... break them... wouldn'cha say?"
Not very threatening, in other words.
Does this guy believe in answered prayer too? Anyone have a tally on how prayer's doing on eliminating diseases vs. science?