HELL EXISTS [mod edit: moved to trollville]
Posted on: August 7, 2007 - 5:35pm
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HELL EXISTS [mod edit: moved to trollville]
Hell exists. Many of our saints were granted vision of its existance. Some of this material is catalogued in two books:
Eternal Mysteries Beyond the Grave, by Ponteleimon
The Soul After Death, by Fr. Seraphim Rose
Some modern people have also seen Hell. It is a real place and is located in the center of the earth. Those who are there once laughed at its existance.
VISITS TO HELL
Bill Wiesehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho9iA2pJ9SMMary K Baxterhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBm9JRggXOYHoward Stormhttp://www.near-death.com/storm.html- Login to post comments
The thread "Theism is Irrational" is true. But it is only irrational to a mind that is in darkness. It is only irrational to what, 5% of all living persons? The closer man's proximity to God, the more rational theism becomes.
Unfortunately, these anecdotes to not constitute empirical evidence. While it may be considered sufficient evidence by some, in this corner of the internet, it falls so far short of proof that it is dismissed out of hand.
My Artwork
agreed.
evfimy, if you want to get anywhere on this forum, speak in terms of emperical evience.
The argument from experience (hell exists because these people have experienced events which provide evience for the existence of hell) fails simply because the truth does not rely on what these people claim to have experienced.
Accepting their arguments 100% ignores the possibilities that:
1) they are lying
2) they are delusional
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
George Orwell.
Yes, I know.
It's in Michigan
Do you know why hell was thought to be in the center of the earth? Because earth was in the center of the universe, hence it was the point furthest from heaven. Do you also believe in these ancient cosmologies?
hilarious links, but none of them are the least bit convincing of anything other than the impressive lengths of the human imagination.
do you actually have any credible proof of your statements or did you blow your wad pimping for these sensationalist opportunists?
www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens
I didn't know which response to this posting would be best:
Thandarr
Thandarr
[email protected]
Yes, earth is in the center of the universe. I didn't come here to give "proof" of hell. I came to give living testimonies of people who experienced it. Their experience was as real or more real then your everyday experience. The point is that nothing will convince atheists because their minds are are in the tight grip of the devil. This is what happens to people who spend their whole lives in service to him. The more one serves Satan, the tighter the grip he has on their mind.
P.S. It was not just saints who saw hell. Many non-believers have also seen and been to hell. Howard Storm was an atheist who died. His experience was so traumatic that when he came back to life, he converted to Christianity and is now a pastor of a church. The books I listed above catalogue several of those accounts.
Some people walking this earth are demonized and are here to destroy you. Wake up.
Of course hell exists, or hell wouldn't be a word in our language.... right?
"Hell is other people" Jean-Paul Sartre
Quick question here. I believe you mentioned that you were Eastern Orthodox, correct? If I'm wrong please let me know.
Anyway, is there a great deal of focus on Saints in that particular group? I notice you reference Saints alot. Not many other theists around here do.
Also, there is such a thing as false testimony. As an example, I could tell you about all my wonderful adventures with my gigantic dragon. Do you believe me? Why not? These are my experiences and I'm telling them to you, therefore they are true. Right?
And what happens if you're worshipping the wrong god? Would you end up in hell as well? Most religions frown upon people worshipping the wrong guy.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
I'm sorry you're that ignorant about reality.
I'm sure their experience was real, but that doesn't mean they experienced a place that objectively exists.
The same can be said about you. Maybe the Christian's mind is in the grip of some evil deity who is tricking them, and the only way to salvation is to rebel against him. This whole atheist-are-tricked-by-the-Devil ploy is special pleading.
In the New Testament, the word translated Hell is actually the word Gehenna. Gehenna was an actual place near Jerusalem. I also was a symbol of judgment, because it was an accursed place. When Jesus use Gehenna, he probably meant a temporal judgment, not the hell Dante wrote about.
Gehenna is the Greek for Hell, and Jesus used a worldly/physical illustration (the dump near Jerusalem)to describe a spritual reality. The smoke near Jerusalem continuously ascended. He used as an illustration the most foul, hideous and horrible place available to them at that time. Jesus made many referrences to eternal hell and eternal punishment. It is not temporary. The book of Revelation states that the "smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever." Jesus said in hell, "their worm dies not." The worm is the consciousness of the person eating at them in regret for making the wrong decision in life. In Matthew 25, Jesus said that the goats (the lost sinners) will go away into everlasting punishment.
A more accurate decription of hell, as opposed to the links I gave in my first post, is found in the writings of Saint Mark of Ephesus and the two books I listed.
Yes, I appeal to saints. The other so called Christian's here do not have saints because they are outside the true Church, and they can only trace their history back a few hundred years. Orthodoxy was founded in 33 AD. We have 2,000 years of experience and history vindicating our claims. Most of the West only knows about Catholicism, Protestantism, Evangelicalism, and the various cults (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc). These groups are false.
The early Church Fathers Speak to us on :
HELL
From the Writings of the Early Christians we Come to understand much as they lived far closer to the times of Christ and his apostles then we can ever hope, with this in mind we look to them because the truth is Eternal (constant) it always remains the Same, thus what they have proclaimed let us then hold firm to.
Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
Second Clement
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
Justin Martyr
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
Justin Martyr
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).
Irenaeus of Lyons
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
Irenaeus of Lyons
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming ... [I]t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
Tertullian
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12-13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12-5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will thee be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"Oh, what a day that will be, and how great when it comes, dearest brethren! When the Lord ... [will] cast into hell evildoers and will condemn our persecutors to the eternal fire and to punishing flame!" (Letters 58:10 [A.D. 253]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding for ever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).
St. Patrick
"In everlasting punishment they [the soldiers who murdered my new converts] will become slaves of hell along with him [Coroticus], for truly whosoever commits sin is a slave, and is called a son of the Devil" (Letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus 4 [A.D. 452]).
Man, ha ha..... yeah......
This GUY, whooooooo.
He has a GREAT holiday in his name, the green beer is not necessarily any different but man is it FESTIVE.
Thanks for reminding me, I think I will pour myself a nice cold stout.
This is all very interesting and it is obvious that you believe it, but are you wanting to debate the existence of hell or did you just want to tell us about it?
I ask because proselytizing is frowned upon here but if you are wanting to debate that is fine, I just wanted to clarify your intent.
Thanks!
"
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." --Carl Sagan
Sagan was not capable of grasping the universe as it is. He saw the universe though a mind clouded in darkness and sin. Only when God opens the eyes of the soul, can a man perceive the true nature of reality.
My argument for hell is that we have many first-hand accounts of people who have been there or seen it. Believers and non-believers. In a court of law you cannot get better testimony and evidence then eye witnesses. Many of these testimonies are stated in the books I recommended. The saints had divine vision and illumination and were able to see reality as it truly is, to some degree. They were in a state of higher consciousness, so to speak, and in this state of mind they were granted visions of heaven and hell. One saint, even came back to earth with a branch off a tree in Paradise. An atheist might convientley dismiss it all by claiming they are hallucinations. But then I would ask the following questions: 1. Where's the proof they were hallucinating? Did a trained psychiatrist of their time tell you this? 2. If God does not exist, the atheist has no way of distinguising between what they think is reality and what they think is hallucination. How do they know hallucinations are untrue? How do they know that people aren't glimpsing into another reality and that you are not half asleep or semi-conscious? Second, the teaching on hell was taught by Jesus Christ, the most perfect person who ever lived, and His knowledge was Divine and true. I can't prove hell exists right now, and you can't prove it doesn't. All I can do is give you the teachings and the testimonies.
Holy crap! We have a real, like geocentrist here. That is a rare bird in this age.
What causes you to think that the Earth is the center of revolution in the universe? Are you familiar with astronomical methodology? If you have a sextant and a place to plant a permanent stake, I will prove the heliocentrism to you. (I feel like Copernicus!)
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
Sure you can! Physical proof is significantly better than eye witnesses. If both are provided, that is considered solid evidence.
There are many other explanations for this and there are also a myriad of testimonials for other supernatural ideas, which you probably don't believe in and yet you will most likely reject them because they do not concur with your beliefs.
Let me ask you this - are there modern saints (?) who have had these visions? Have these people been examined by a psychiatrist or neurologist? Based on your statements, do you believe that all hallucinations are visions? If they are not, how do you distinguish between visions and hallucinations?
The hobgoblins got ahold of him, huh?
This is coming from a geocentrist.
Above, I responded that this line of reasoning is special pleading. FYI, special pleading is considered a logical falacy. You need to show that you're don't have a clouded mind, that somehow you're not being deceived before you can even play this card.
But, this isn't a court of law. I consider the existence of hell a scientific question, and science has different demands that the courts do.
Again, I'm sure they had experiences, but they were subjective ones. You take them far too literally.
The were definitely altered states of consciousness. If you want to call that hallucinating, then go for it. And you're shifting the burden of proof, another logical fallacy.
Neither do you, whether or not God exists. More special pleading.
How do you know that they're true? How do you not know their experiences were subjective experience in their minds? You're shifting the burden of proof, again.
It is arguable what Jesus taught. You're only reciting your orthodox beliefs. We don't accept that Jesus was divine (some here don't accept that he ever existed), so that doesn't support your argument for us.
I don't need to prove hell doesn't exist. Don't shift the burden of proof. The teachings we don't accept, and the testimonies were subjective experience not reflecting any objective, external reality.
The post starting with the above came from here. Did you write that page, evfimy? (Besides the obvious quotes, of course)
No, but I gave the referrences for the quotes.
All the arguments used against me I can use against atheists. Their experiences were called "subjective." Really? what's your proof? There is a Catholic scholar named Bob Sungenis who is offering anyone $10,000 to anyone who can prove heliocentrism. No one has succeeded thus far. I have first hand testimonies from people who saw and have been to hell. The atheist has nothing. You have no evidence or proof that hell does not exist. I have given my evidence and arguments, and they have not and cannot be refuted. Why don't you contact Howard Storm. He was clinically dead with no brain or heart activity. A dead brain does not produce organized thought patterns. If its going to produce anything at all, it would be chaotic and disorganized. Yes, we have some modern saints. But only a few as the age of saints is pretty much over. Elder Ephraim in Arizona is clairvoyant. He can see the spiritual world ---angels, demons. Contact him at Saint Anthony's Monastery. He came from Greece in 1995.
There are plenty of 'living testimonies' for UFO abduction too, and their stories are just as real to them as these hell stories are to you. It's simply active imaginations.
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."--Stephen F. Roberts
You honestly believe that? Claimed psychics/clairvoyants are frauds, not some but all. There's a $1M challenge for these types of people over at the JREF ( www.randi.org ).
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."--Stephen F. Roberts
How about me, i was clinically dead for 5 minutes, not brain activity no heart activity, yet i never saw hell, nor did i see heaven, i experienced nothing, basically what i expected. As for your evidence, your right they cannot be refuted, nor can they be confirmed at all either, so it really goes out the window at this point. What about all those other cultures that have experienced their version of what happens in the after life? buddhist that have seen their next life? Muslims that have seen their version of heaven or hell? Hindus that have had there versiono the after life in their death experiences? What of those then? Do they confirm their religious views? if so, your arguement really starts to fall apart, either way you wish to answer it.
As for the heliocentrism bet, it really depends on it's definition, and second it really isn't used that much as an absolute, but more for pratical reasons, even geocentric is used by scientists depending on what origin of mass they are using and calculating for. So yes the bet will never be won. Since both geocentric and heliocentric. Heliocentric idea was more or less discarded between the 18th and 19th century as the status of the sun was shown to be one in billions and billions and billions of sun, it really just depends on who you plan to use the definition of it.
I don't pretend to do the mod's job here. Suffice it to say that cutting & pasting from another site without crediting it makes me distrust you.
This is coming from someone who does special pleading up the wazoo.
Where's you're proof that they were objective? You're the claimant, you provide the proof. You're shifting the burden of proof is a logical fallacy. You do understand that it's irrational to accept fallacious arguments? You are trying to convince me, right?
This is utter bullshit.
These are subjective experience. Actually, all experiences are subjective. I don't doubt these experiences seemed real to those that experienced them, but they're simply not evidence in any scientific sense.
Once again, you shift the burden of proof....
You're arguments have been all shifting the burden of proof and special pleading. Your evidence is people's subjective experiences, and writings of the church fathers.
These don't cut it for me. You say hell is in the center of the earth. You've made a statement that can be settled with a scientific investigation. Go gather evidence, and get it published in a respected, peer reviewed geological journal, and I'll accept your position. What are you waiting for?
I can dig up things to the contrary, but I'd be wasting my time. If you really want to know, go look up other threads about these near death experiences. There are plenty of them on this site. You'll find things to counter them in there.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use" Galileo Galilei
Only what my eyes will see, will I believe.
There is a different truth proposed by Copernicus, the heliocentric one. Our moon is the reason why, for Jupiter has four.
I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind.
Actually, It's been proven eyewitness testimony is extremely unreliable.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
...and this is true because, um, you say so? Who cares about Greek scholars who disagree with you--you're right because you say it?
...and your evidence for this is what now? My Bible doesn't say anywhere that he was speaking metaphorically about a place of eternal punishment.
If Jesus really was God incarnate and this information really was that important, then why didn't he describe it clearly? Why does the all-knowing incarnated God need to use the "best available" metaphor to describe something--as though he were just a man--instead of just stating something clearly so that there would be no doubt or question about it?
Factually incorrect. Jesus made *one* reference to something that can be translated "everlasting torment," as it is in the KJV. It can also be translated "age-enduring cutting-off" as it is in many other Bibles.
Jesus didn't write the book of Revelation.
Again, Jesus was talking here about Gehenna, the garbage dump outside Jerusalem, and not a theoretical place of eternal torment that he never mentioned.
Hmmm, I don't see this part in my Bible. All I see is some stuff about worms not dying in a garbage dump. Somebody must have made this up.
Well of course it is, because these are the guys who made the story up. That's why their description is so much more clear and definitive than a couple of vague references in the gospels.
Everybody says their own church is the true church. Some of them even have *eyewitness accounts* and visions that "prove" their churches are the one true church. Some of these churches don't believe in Hell.
The American Protestant Restorationists and Catholics both claim to have been founded in 33A.D. What makes your claim better than theirs?
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
His leadership says so?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Though in Hell's defense, I do like Cedar Point a lot.
Three fuckwits prove the existence of their own imaginations. Whoopty-fucking-shit.
Also you may be interested to know, evfimy, that your hero Craig Hawkins Ph.D. says that experientialism is insufficient to justify a world view:
http://www.apologeticsinfo.org/papers/experientialism.html
Hawkins recognizes the apologetics problem that you're overlooking. If you admit "experience" as evidence in the case of Christianity, you open the door to any other religion making the same claim.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
If it is god who opens the eyes then I'll just wait for him to do it seeing as he's a all mighty.
Look, you believe in Hell simply because it is in the Bible, and you believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I don't. Most on this site don't. So if you want to convince us that Hell exists, you have two methods -
1. Prove that the Bible is the Word of God.
2. Prove that Hell exists - without the use of the Bible or anecdotal accounts.
Good Luck!(You'll need it)
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
It's not even possible, xamination, to prove that Hell is in the Bible. Several Bible-based Christian denominations, based on their reading of the Bible, find that it is not a Bible-based doctrine and don't believe it.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
Hell doesn't exist, you silly person.
Hope this helps.
Well, Textom, I was just going to assume it was for the sake of the arguement. Stop being such a meanie.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.