Christians' Nemesis: The Argument From Mundanity

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Christians' Nemesis: The Argument From Mundanity

Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens are among the most intelligent, witty and persuasive atheists currently writing. Although Harris tends to attack theism from a philosophical standpoint, and Hitchens prefers consulting history and using religions’ own texts against them, both have beautifully articulated a strong, unanswerable argument against Christianity (and every other religion currently vying for loyalists among people who ought to know better). I shall call it The Argument From Mundanity.

In the minds of many Christians, the Bible was written (or, at least, inspired) by the creator of the cosmos. This fantastical entity, children have been inculcated to believe, is comprehensively aware of the thoughts and inner conflicts of every individual roaming the planet. Certainly, considering its author, one might expect the Bible to be full of dazzlingly specific information (of which none of its readers previously had been aware). Considering the author, it should be the pinnacle of intellectual achievement, featuring innumerable accurate tidbits about events and discoveries yet to come. Yet, this certainly is not the case.

More articulately than I could, Sam Harris makes the point in Letter to a Christian Nation, writing, “…just imagine how breathtakingly specific a work of prophecy would be, if it were actually the product of omniscience. If the Bible were such a book, it would make perfectly accurate predictions about human events. You would expect it to contain a passage such as ‘In the latter half of the twentieth century, humankind will develop a globally linked system of computers—the principles of which I set forth in Leviticus—and this system shall be called the Internet.’ The Bible contains nothing like this. In fact, it does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century. This should trouble you.”

Indeed, it should.

The reference to the first century immediately should grab one’s attention. It is easy to forget just when modern religions, such as Christianity, came into being. The Bible was written around 2000 years ago (obviously with some texts older and some more recent). During the time Jesus is alleged to have walked the earth, our species suffered from embarrassing, comprehensive ignorance. The most basic of scientific truths eluded our distant ancestors, who concocted a vastly smaller universe of which the earth was the center, a demon theory of disease and a meteorological paradigm from which rain dances sprang. The most “knowledgeable” person in the first century now would be a pitiable fool.

Christopher Hitchens makes the observation in God Is Not Great, writing, “One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody—not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms—had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance, and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think—though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one—that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.”

The Bible presents plenty of positive assertions that are plainly false, and these have been mined by atheists for decades, if not centuries. I shan’t regurgitate those. This essay’s focus is Christianity’s sins of omission, the punishment for which should be universal apostasy among all intellectually honest individuals.

Let’s start with Genesis, which has been corrupting the United States’ science classrooms for much too long. Hitchens demonstrates the level of ignorance Genesis reveals.

Why, he asks, can Genesis be proven the mundane work of ignorant humans in merely a paragraph? “Because,” he writes, “man is given ‘dominion’ over all beasts, fowl and fish. But no dinosaurs or plesiosaurs or pterodactyls are specified, because the authors did not know of their existence, let alone of their supposedly special and immediate creation. Nor are any marsupials mentioned, because Australia—the next candidate after Mesoamerica for a new ‘Eden’—was not on any known map. Most important, in Genesis man is not awarded dominion over germs and bacteria because the existence of these necessary yet dangerous fellow creatures was not known or understood. And if it had been known or understood, it would at once have become apparent that these forms of life had ‘dominion’ over us, and would continue to enjoy it uncontested until the priests had been elbowed aside and medical research at last given an opportunity.”

Sam Harris continues the argument, making the salient point that a great deal of human misery could have been wiped out had the Bible simply provided a single nugget of previously unknown medical knowledge. “Why,” he asks, “doesn’t the Bible say anything about electricity, or about DNA, or about the actual age and size of the universe? What about a cure for cancer? When we fully understand the biology of cancer, this understanding will be easily summarized in a few pages of text. Why aren’t these pages, or anything remotely like them, found in the Bible? Good, pious people are dying horribly from cancer at this very moment, and many of them are children. The Bible is a very big book. God had room to instruct us in great detail about how to keep slaves and sacrifice a wide variety of animals. To one who stands outside the Christian faith, it is utterly astonishing how ordinary a book can be and still be thought the product of omniscience.”

Here, one thinks of the approximately 10,000 distinct religions infecting our otherwise-sophisticated species. Of all the religious texts I have ever read or heard of, none has been the source of new knowledge about natural principles or the miraculous impetus for a scientific leap. Rather, each has been the work of mere humans, serving up large doses of primitive superstition, baseless moralizing, useless commandments and promises just beyond the reach of confirmation. If one religion of the 10,000 actually were true, I should think its veracity would be proved by its unique ability to reveal (think ‘revelation’) factual information before scientists can discover it. Then, religion would spread by the power of its evidence, rather than by parents’ talent for indoctrinating defenseless young.

To this point, I have presented The Argument From Mundanity mostly from the perspective of Christianity’s failing to reveal accurate information about the natural order. Let’s now take a different tack.

Although no scientifically aware individual would even give Christianity’s metaphysical claims (human resurrection, talking animals, et al.) a second look, some such people might previously have credited the faith with some measure of creativity and imagination. Sadly, this no longer can be done. Virgin birth, to take just one example, turns out to be a cheap knock-off of pre-existing lunatic derangements. Human parthenogenesis turns out to be the height of mundanity.

Hitchens sets off with a verse from the book of Matthew, “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.” “Yes,” Hitchens begins, “and the Greek demigod Perseus was born when the god Jupiter visited the virgin Danaë as a shower of gold and got her with child. The god Buddha was born through an opening in his mother's flank. Catlicus the serpent-skirted caught a little ball of feathers from the sky and hid it in her bosom, and the Aztec god Huitzilopochtli was thus conceived. The virgin Nana took a pomegranate from the tree watered by the blood of the slain Agdestris, and laid it in her bosom, and gave birth to the god Attis. The virgin daughter of a Mongol king awoke one night and found herself bathed in a great light, which caused her to give birth to Genghis Khan. Krishna was born of the virgin Devaka. Horus was born of the virgin Isis. Mercury was born of the virgin Maia. Romulus was born of the virgin Rhea Sylvia.”

So, now, not only do we have infinitely various god characters, boasting infinitely various skill sets, demanding infinitely various behaviors, promising infinitely various rewards (and haunting impressionable children with infinitely various punishments), we also have a historical landscape (perhaps, in this instance, ‘fairyscape’) littered with virgin births and fatherless offspring. Advocates of one man-one woman households would be aghast—were they biblically literate. Let it be declared: The Bible is not imaginative, even on the level of a book of ancient Jewish folklore. Rather, it is tiresome, pernicious, obnoxious and—most unforgivably—utterly mundane.

A shockingly brilliant man called Carl Sagan, whom the world misses greatly, took great interest in UFO abductees’ tall tales. The aliens described, far more advanced than we, always related the most humdrum drivel to those they took aboard their spacecrafts. They neglected to mention HIV to abductees taken in the late ’70s. They carelessly omitted Saddam’s non-existent weapons of mass destruction when they abducted individuals in the late ’90s. It seems the only knowledge they wish to impart is that which humans already have—or philosophical platitudes of which we have too many. They never divulge new information for which scientists had been struggling mightily. Sagan, in fact, suggested the following request for anyone who ends up meeting a highly advanced alien: Ask it to deliver a short proof of Goldbach's Conjecture. To my knowledge, E.T. has been stumped so far.

Next time you read the Bible, which allegedly was inspired by the creator of the cosmos himself, remember this: Its utter mundanity betrays its decidedly terrestrial origin.


Hambydammit
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well done. One of my

well done.

One of my favorite rebuttals to this is the old standby: "Well, if he just made it plain for us, there would be no need for faith, and then our faith would be useless."

That's obviously pretty stupid, but it's the main defence I've heard.  If god cares so much about us, why give us a choice that involves us going against logic?  Why not make it sensible for us to believe in him?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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That theistic response

That theistic response presupposes faith is a virtue.


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"Faith" as practiced by the

"Faith" as practiced by the religious would be considered insanity in any situation other than religion by almost anyone.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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Precisely.  Here's the

Precisely.  Here's the standard format argument:

Atheist: (Argument from the Mundane)

Theist: (Rebuttal from faith:virtue)

Atheist: but you can't demonstrate that faith has any value in acquiring knowledge.  In fact, any attempt you make will be forced to use logic.

Theist: But you can't prove that faith ISN'T valid.

Atheist: I just did.

Theist: No, you proved that I can't prove it is.

Atheist: No.  I proved that any knowledge is necessarily based on logic precisely because knowledge is a derivative of logic.   Anything you say relied on logic, whether it was valid or invalid.

Theist: Is not.

Atheist: Is so.

Theist: I'm taking my bible and going home to claim victory over the heathens

Atheist: I'm having a beer. Bye.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Quote:

Look Below to my next post.


simple theist
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I don't know what is going

I don't know what is going on here. I wrote everything in MS Word and then posted it here and now it won't let me edit the colors or anything.

Quote:

Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens are among the most intelligent, witty and persuasive atheists currently writing. Although Harris tends to attack theism from a philosophical standpoint, and Hitchens prefers consulting history and using religions’ own texts against them, both have beautifully articulated a strong, unanswerable argument against Christianity (and every other religion currently vying for loyalists among people who ought to know better). I shall call it The Argument From Mundanity.

In the minds of many Christians, the Bible was written (or, at least, inspired) by the creator of the cosmos. This fantastical entity, children have been inculcated to believe, is comprehensively aware of the thoughts and inner conflicts of every individual roaming the planet. Certainly, considering its author, one might expect the Bible to be full of dazzlingly specific information (of which none of its readers previously had been aware). Considering the author, it should be the pinnacle of intellectual achievement, featuring innumerable accurate tidbits about events and discoveries yet to come. Yet, this certainly is not the case.

What do Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens do in all their books, they try to disprove Christianity. They don’t write about Math or Science. You claim they are intelligent, so I must ask, why haven’t they written anything about Science or Math? Why haven’t they written a textbook on any subject? Why doesn’t Homer (The Greek, not the cartoon) talk about anything else in the Illiad besides a story? Simply, When someone writes a book, their purpose in writing determines what they write. God’s purpose in the bible was not to convey new scientific knowledge to people. We can even make the claim that the majority of the Old Testament was specifically written to record the history of the Jewish people and focuses on how they should live. The Old Testament fulfills it’s purpose in being written, and therefore does not need to do anything else.

Further, if it did mention these scientific facts, you would probably make the claim that people discovered them and then recorded them in the Bible as God discovering them. Or you would point to another ancient book which had something similar and say the Bible copied it.  I don’t think the inclusion of scientific events would be suffiecent for you to believe in God and are therefore not needed.

More articulately than I could, Sam Harris makes the point in Letter to a Christian Nation, writing, “…just imagine how breathtakingly specific a work of prophecy would be, if it were actually the product of omniscience. If the Bible were such a book, it would make perfectly accurate predictions about human events. You would expect it to contain a passage such as ‘In the latter half of the twentieth century, humankind will develop a globally linked system of computers—the principles of which I set forth in Leviticus—and this system shall be called the Internet.’ The Bible contains nothing like this. In fact, it does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century. This should trouble you.”

Indeed, it should.

Again, the Old Testament in concerned with the Jewish people, and so makes predictions concerning them. The New Testament is concerned with the Church. No part of the bible is concerned with the world. The bibles main reason for being written is not to show prophecies about the world.

The Old Testament also specifically mentions Cyrus the Great, by name and mentions events that he will do. Josephus tells us that it was after being shown these documents that he gave the Jews the decree to return to their homeland. You may claim that this is an addition made years later, but the point is that you can’t prove this. Logic shows this would be unlikely, for if the Jews added one thing, why not a lot more things, and a lot more people by name. There are also no copies which don’t have the events concerning Cyrus.

We then move on to the prophecy of the restoration of Israel. (Ezekiel 36 - 39). Claim whatever you will about the passage about dry bones, but the point here is that this was in the text prior to 1948. The passage was also determined to mean that Israel would be restored, prior to 1948. Israel didn’t exist when the prophecy was written (Remember, there is a difference between Israel and Judea) and no united kingdom had existed for a very long time. One would not expect Ezekiel to make this claim, when there was no reason for him to think that a united kingdom called Israel would ever exist again. History has proven that only the Jewish nation of Israel has ever been restored after 2000+ years. I know of no nation to ever be restored after it was destroyed. The Holy Roman empire is not the restoration of the Roman empire. Valtaire (sp?) made the claim that the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman. Also the eastern half of the Roman Empire (which wasn’t destroyed) still claimed to be the Roman Empire.

The reference to the first century immediately should grab one’s attention. It is easy to forget just when modern religions, such as Christianity, came into being. The Bible was written around 2000 years ago (obviously with some texts older and some more recent). During the time Jesus is alleged to have walked the earth, our species suffered from embarrassing, comprehensive ignorance. The most basic of scientific truths eluded our distant ancestors, who concocted a vastly smaller universe of which the earth was the center, a demon theory of disease and a meteorological paradigm from which rain dances sprang. The most “knowledgeable” person in the first century now would be a pitiable fool.

Most fifth graders are smarter then Isaac Newton. The real question is can you offer proof that anything in the bible is not scientifically accurate? Also, not every passage of the New Testament mentions that demons are responsible for every disease. If my memory serves me correctly, the NT does not even claim demons are responsible for one disease.

 

Christopher Hitchens makes the observation in God Is Not Great, writing, “One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody—not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms—had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance, and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think—though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one—that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.”

I would also state that they probably haven’t taken the time to explore Christianity for themselves.

The Bible presents plenty of positive assertions that are plainly false, and these have been mined by atheists for decades, if not centuries. I shan’t regurgitate those.

The book “The God Delusion” presents plenty of positive assertions that are plainly false, and these have been minded by theists since the book was published. I shan’t regurgitate those. (Your point is pointless without examples)

The bible does not present plenty any assertions that are false.

This essay’s focus is Christianity’s sins of omission, the punishment for which should be universal apostasy among all intellectually honest individuals.

Omission does not mean something is false. If so I could claim anything done by the authors you’ve mentioned is false because they have omitted refuting every claim by Christianity and have omitted many religious all together. If they are intelligent, they should have been able to refute every claim and every religion.

Let’s start with Genesis, which has been corrupting the United States’ science classrooms for much too long. Hitchens demonstrates the level of ignorance Genesis reveals.

Why, he asks, can Genesis be proven the mundane work of ignorant humans in merely a paragraph? “Because,” he writes, “man is given ‘dominion’ over all beasts, fowl and fish. But no dinosaurs or plesiosaurs or pterodactyls are specified, because the authors did not know of their existence, let alone of their supposedly special and immediate creation. Nor are any marsupials mentioned, because Australia—the next candidate after Mesoamerica for a new ‘Eden’—was not on any known map. Most important, in Genesis man is not awarded dominion over germs and bacteria because the existence of these necessary yet dangerous fellow creatures was not known or understood. And if it had been known or understood, it would at once have become apparent that these forms of life had ‘dominion’ over us, and would continue to enjoy it uncontested until the priests had been elbowed aside and medical research at last given an opportunity.”

Dinosaurs would fall under beasts. So they are mentioned, under beasts. Gen. 28 “Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Every animal is included here. Germs appear to not be mentioned. However one can simply say that man was not to rule over germs and is why they are not mentioned. This part of Genesis is written prior to the fall, so one could also claim germs aren’t mentioned here because they didn’t exist yet.

Do men rule over germs? I would say no, we don’t. So obviously they are excluded in something we are suppose to rule over.

Sam Harris continues the argument, making the salient point that a great deal of human misery could have been wiped out had the Bible simply provided a single nugget of previously unknown medical knowledge.

A great deal of human misery could have been wiped out had Adam decided to not eat a piece of fruit. A great deal of human misery could have been wiped out had God not allowed any disease to ever exist. The point is Christianity isn’t false because God didn’t include any previously unkown medical knowledge. The bible isn’t a medical book, the OT is generally a historic (of the Jewish people) and prophetic book. The NT deals with the Church and Jesus.

The bible does not even contain medical knowledge that was known.

 

“Why,” he asks, “doesn’t the Bible say anything about electricity, or about DNA, or about the actual age and size of the universe?

This was not the point of the author. If you want anything else, your going to have to ask God since I’m not qualified to tell you why anyone does anything except myself.

In God’s eye, electricity, DNA, the age of the universe, etc. is not important.

What about a cure for cancer? When we fully understand the biology of cancer, this understanding will be easily summarized in a few pages of text. Why aren’t these pages, or anything remotely like them, found in the Bible? Good, pious people are dying horribly from cancer at this very moment, and many of them are children. The Bible is a very big book. God had room to instruct us in great detail about how to keep slaves and sacrifice a wide variety of animals. To one who stands outside the Christian faith, it is utterly astonishing how ordinary a book can be and still be thought the product of omniscience.”

You assume we will one day be able to cure cancer. You then assume this cure will be able to be written on two pages. So what if we can’t cure cancer or it can’t be written on two pages. How do you know Cancer has always existed?

Here, one thinks of the approximately 10,000 distinct religions infecting our otherwise-sophisticated species. Of all the religious texts I have ever read or heard of, none has been the source of new knowledge about natural principles or the miraculous impetus for a scientific leap.

The bible doesn’t care about natural principles or science. It serves it’s purpose to record the history of the Jewish people and to reveal God to those who seek him.

Rather, each has been the work of mere humans, serving up large doses of primitive superstition, baseless moralizing, useless commandments and promises just beyond the reach of confirmation. If one religion of the 10,000 actually were true, I should think its veracity would be proved by its unique ability to reveal (think ‘revelation’) factual information before scientists can discover it. Then, religion would spread by the power of its evidence, rather than by parents’ talent for indoctrinating defenseless young.

God could also send an angel to every single person and tell him the bible is true. He has chosen not to. 

To this point, I have presented The Argument From Mundanity mostly from the perspective of Christianity’s failing to reveal accurate information about the natural order. Let’s now take a different tack.

Although no scientifically aware individual would even give Christianity’s metaphysical claims (human resurrection, talking animals, et al.) a second look, (I think this statement can be proven false without much work. Since any person interviewed in the “Case for a Creator” by Lee Strobel proves it false, unless your going to claim they are not scientifically aware, and if so go ahead and prove it.)

some such people might previously have credited the faith with some measure of creativity and imagination. Sadly, this no longer can be done. Virgin birth, to take just one example, turns out to be a cheap knock-off of pre-existing lunatic derangements. Human parthenogenesis turns out to be the height of mundanity.

Hitchens sets off with a verse from the book of Matthew, “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.” “Yes,” Hitchens begins, “and the Greek demigod Perseus was born when the god Jupiter visited the virgin Danaë as a shower of gold and got her with child. The god Buddha was born through an opening in his mother's flank. Catlicus the serpent-skirted caught a little ball of feathers from the sky and hid it in her bosom, and the Aztec god Huitzilopochtli was thus conceived. The virgin Nana took a pomegranate from the tree watered by the blood of the slain Agdestris, and laid it in her bosom, and gave birth to the god Attis. The virgin daughter of a Mongol king awoke one night and found herself bathed in a great light, which caused her to give birth to Genghis Khan. Krishna was born of the virgin Devaka. Horus was born of the virgin Isis. Mercury was born of the virgin Maia. Romulus was born of the virgin Rhea Sylvia.”

The book of Genesis mentions that the messiah will be born of a woman only. Given this is true, then all the ones you’ve mentioned could have copied this idea. (I realize there is probably some fancy Latin word to describe my answer, but given Christianity is true, my statement is true, and therefore not any “ad” thing.)

Also if I’m not mistaken, several, if not most or all, other virgin birth stories are not true virgin births. They usually involve the “god” coming to earth and having sex with the girl. In all cases the “god” is still considered the father. Christianity differs, for the baby in the womb is not simply the son of God, but is God come in flesh. This baby was God and existed with the Father for eternity (at least since the beginning).  Hence Jesus could not be called a demigod, for he is God.

So, now, not only do we have infinitely various god characters, boasting infinitely various skill sets, demanding infinitely various behaviors, promising infinitely various rewards (and haunting impressionable children with infinitely various punishments),  

we also have a historical landscape (perhaps, in this instance, ‘fairyscape’) littered with virgin births and fatherless offspring. Advocates of one man-one woman households would be aghast—were they biblically literate. Let it be declared: The Bible is not imaginative, even on the level of a book of ancient Jewish folklore. Rather, it is tiresome, pernicious, obnoxious and—most unforgivably—utterly mundane.

A shockingly brilliant man called Carl Sagan, whom the world misses greatly, took great interest in UFO abductees’ tall tales. The aliens described, far more advanced than we, always related the most humdrum drivel to those they took aboard their spacecrafts. They neglected to mention HIV to abductees taken in the late ’70s. They carelessly omitted Saddam’s non-existent weapons of mass destruction when they abducted individuals in the late ’90s.

There are several claims that the WMDs were there and was shipped into Syria. But that isn’t my point here.

It seems the only knowledge they wish to impart is that which humans already have—or philosophical platitudes of which we have too many. They never divulge new information for which scientists had been struggling mightily. Sagan, in fact, suggested the following request for anyone who ends up meeting a highly advanced alien: Ask it to deliver a short proof of Goldbach's Conjecture. To my knowledge, E.T. has been stumped so far.

Next time you read the Bible, which allegedly was inspired by the creator of the cosmos himself, remember this: Its utter mundanity betrays its decidedly terrestrial origin.

And yet this “mundane” book, is still the world’s best seller having sold more than 5 billion copies, a lot more then any other book in history. Also most of the top ten are religious in nature. 

 

 


TheJollyNihilist
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What do Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens do in all their books, they try to disprove Christianity. They don’t write about Math or Science. You claim they are intelligent, so I must ask, why haven’t they written anything about Science or Math? Why haven’t they written a textbook on any subject? Why doesn’t Homer (The Greek, not the cartoon) talk about anything else in the Illiad besides a story? Simply, When someone writes a book, their purpose in writing determines what they write. God’s purpose in the bible was not to convey new scientific knowledge to people. We can even make the claim that the majority of the Old Testament was specifically written to record the history of the Jewish people and focuses on how they should live. The Old Testament fulfills it’s purpose in being written, and therefore does not need to do anything else.

First off, Christopher Hitchens, a prominent intellectual, has written many books, a great deal of which have nothing to do with religion.

Here’s a list for you:

 

* 2006 Thomas Paine's "Rights of Man": A Biography. Books That Shook the World/Atlantic Books, ISBN 1-84354-513-6

 

* 2005 Thomas Jefferson: Author of America. Eminent Lives/Atlas Books/HarperCollins Publishers, ISBN 0-06-059896-4

 

* 2004 Love, Poverty, and War: Journeys and Essays. Thunder's Mouth, Nation Books, ISBN 1-56025-580-3

 

* 2003 A Long Short War: The Postponed Liberation of Iraq. Plume Books

 

* 2002 Why Orwell Matters, Basic Books (US)/UK edition as Orwell's Victory, Allen Lane/The Penguin Press.

 

* 2001 The Trial of Henry Kissinger. Verso.

 

* 2001 Letters to a Young Contrarian. Basic Books.

 

* 2000 Unacknowledged Legislation: Writers in the Public Sphere. Verso.

 

* 1999 No One Left to Lie To: The Triangulations of William Jefferson Clinton. Verso. Reissued as No One Left to Lie To: The Values of the Worst Family in 2000.

 

* 1995 The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice. Verso.

 

* 1993 For the Sake of Argument: Essays and Minority Reports. Verso.

 

* 1990 Blood, Class, and Nostalgia: Anglo-American Ironies. Farrar, Straus & Giroux. Reissued 2004, with a new introduction, as Blood, Class and Empire: The Enduring Anglo-American Relationship, Nation Books, ISBN 1-56025-592-7)

 

* 1990 The Monarchy: A Critique of Britain's Favorite Fetish. Chatto & Windus, 1990.

 

* 1988 Prepared for the Worst: Selected Essays and Minority Reports. Hill and Wang (US)/Chatto and Windus (UK).

 

* 1987 Imperial Spoils: The Curious Case of the Elgin Marbles. Chatto and Windus (UK)/Hill and Wang (US, 1988) / 1997 UK Verso edition as The Elgin Marbles: Should They Be Returned to Greece? (with essays by Robert Browning and Graham Binns).

 

* 1984 Cyprus. Quartet. Revised editions as Hostage to History: Cyprus from the Ottomans to Kissinger, 1989 (Farrar, Straus & Giroux) and 1997 (Verso).

Secondly, I find it interesting that you—personally—think you know the mind of the creator of the cosmos. You—personally—boast knowledge about God’s purposes with respect to the Old Testament and what God meant to provide through it.

You mention that the OT’s purpose was to record Jewish history and present rules for the children of God to follow. Have you ever read Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Book of Judges, etc.? The Old Testament is nothing more than a list of insane moral prescriptions, fairy tale imaginings and reprehensible acts. Fathers hand over their daughters to be raped. Genocide of a most hideous nature is performed by Moses’ foot soldiers. The innocent are slaughtered at every turn, be they infidels or children. Women are treated as property to be “used” at will. The death penalty is prescribed for disobedient children and people who have the audacity to gather sticks on the Sabbath. Then, of course, we have the scientific impossibilities and absurdities, which I’ll talk about later.

 

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Further, if it did mention these scientific facts, you would probably make the claim that people discovered them and then recorded them in the Bible as God discovering them. Or you would point to another ancient book which had something similar and say the Bible copied it. I don’t think the inclusion of scientific events would be suffiecent for you to believe in God and are therefore not needed.

You are making the extraordinary claim…not me. You are claiming that the creator of the cosmos wrote a book. That’s quite extraordinary, indeed. As such, you need to present some overwhelming evidence to support your claim. The appearance of scientific information, in itself, would not prove the book had divine inspiration—for exactly the reasons you mention. The information could have been added later on during the Bible’s endless recopying years. But, if it could be proved that accurate, specific scientific information was included in the Bible before any human on this planet knew about it, then it would be great evidence for Christianity’s veracity.

A book written by the creator of the cosmos ought to contain SOME brand new information in order to demonstrate its divine origin.

 

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Again, the Old Testament in concerned with the Jewish people, and so makes predictions concerning them. The New Testament is concerned with the Church. No part of the bible is concerned with the world. The bibles main reason for being written is not to show prophecies about the world.

Knowing the mind of God again, huh?

If the creator of the cosmos wrote a book, why would he focus on such an infinitesimal fraction of the cosmos? As Michael Shermer writes in Why Darwin Matters, “What science tells us is that we are but one among hundreds of millions of species that evolved over the course of three and a half billion years on one tiny planet among many orbiting an ordinary star, itself one of possibly billions of solar systems in an ordinary galaxy that contains hundreds of billions of stars, itself located in a cluster of galaxies not so different from millions of other galaxy clusters, themselves whirling away from one another in an expanding cosmic bubble universe that very possibly is only one among a near infinite number of bubble universes. Is it really possible that this entire cosmological multiverse was designed and exists for one tiny subgroup of a single species on one planet in a lone galaxy in that solitary bubble universe? It seems unlikely.”

 

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The Old Testament also specifically mentions Cyrus the Great, by name and mentions events that he will do. Josephus tells us that it was after being shown these documents that he gave the Jews the decree to return to their homeland. You may claim that this is an addition made years later, but the point is that you can’t prove this. Logic shows this would be unlikely, for if the Jews added one thing, why not a lot more things, and a lot more people by name. There are also no copies which don’t have the events concerning Cyrus.

Nobody knows when the derangements of the Old Testament were specifically written. Cyrus the Great lived 590 BC or 576 — August 530 BC, so the passages about him easily could have been written as he lived, or after he had died. There is no need to resort to prophecy or anything else unsupported by evidence. The whole Cyrus story could simply be the telling of Jewish history, as you know the creator of the cosmos intended the Old Testament to do.

 

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We then move on to the prophecy of the restoration of Israel. (Ezekiel 36 - 39). Claim whatever you will about the passage about dry bones, but the point here is that this was in the text prior to 1948. The passage was also determined to mean that Israel would be restored, prior to 1948. Israel didn’t exist when the prophecy was written (Remember, there is a difference between Israel and Judea) and no united kingdom had existed for a very long time. One would not expect Ezekiel to make this claim, when there was no reason for him to think that a united kingdom called Israel would ever exist again. History has proven that only the Jewish nation of Israel has ever been restored after 2000+ years. I know of no nation to ever be restored after it was destroyed. The Holy Roman empire is not the restoration of the Roman empire. Valtaire (sp?) made the claim that the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman. Also the eastern half of the Roman Empire (which wasn’t destroyed) still claimed to be the Roman Empire.

Have you ever, for a moment, considered that perhaps Israel was invented, in part, to fulfill the very “prophecy” to which you refer? When people have a prophecy available to them, and can take certain steps to make the prophecy come true, they just might do that. This argument would be much, much more convincing if the ancient text making the prophecy had been discovered in, say, 1972—long after Israel’s invention. Then, it would be strong evidence for your side. As things stand, it’s not.

 

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Most fifth graders are smarter then Isaac Newton. The real question is can you offer proof that anything in the bible is not scientifically accurate? Also, not every passage of the New Testament mentions that demons are responsible for every disease. If my memory serves me correctly, the NT does not even claim demons are responsible for one disease.

But why doesn’t the New Testament expound the germ theory of disease? Surely, God knew about germs and bacteria and viruses. Why is the deity so coy with information? Why does the deity allow his children to wallow in pitiable ignorance?

Here’s some proof that the Bible is scientifically inaccurate:

I. Virgin birth is not possible in the human species (except, perhaps, through amazingly advanced medical techniques which certainly were not available in ancient times). That caveat aside, for humans, a spermatozoon must fertilize an egg in order to create a new human. A female such as Mary could not have fertilized herself. As such, a male must have fertilized her, which, by definition, makes her not a virgin. Virgin birth in the human species is non-science.

II. Humans cannot revive after dozens of hours of death. Brain death, by its very definition, is irreversible. There are no exceptions and no counterexamples. Jesus could not have been resurrected, nor could the putrid corpse of Lazarus have been resurrected by Jesus. Death, in our species, after dozens of hours, is final and resurrection-proof. Human resurrection after prolonged death is non-science.

III. Adam could not have died at the age of 930. Human beings do not have the physiological tools to live hundreds upon hundreds of years. Even now, with incredibly advanced medicine and a vastly improved way of life, humans top out at age 125 or so. It is insanity to think that, thousands of years ago, people could have lived into their 900s. This same wet blanket applies equally to Noah dying at the age of 950. Even Moses, for his time, is alleged to have enjoyed unreasonable longevity (dying at 120). Unrealistic human life spans are non-science.

IV. Serpents cannot speak in human language. Despite the Bible’s claims to the contrary, serpents do not have the vocal apparatus to speak human languages. Moreover, even if a serpent did possess such a vocal apparatus, it would not have the brainpower to master an unfamiliar, complex human language. Finally, serpents do not have tongues capable of mimicking human tongue movements, which are essential to speaking any human language. The same basic objection applies equally to the donkey alleged to speak in human tongues after witnessing an angel. A non-human animal speaking human languages is non-science.

 

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I would also state that they probably haven’t taken the time to explore Christianity for themselves.

Indeed, let them explore Christianity when they are well-educated and sophisticated adults. Let them explore Christianity when they are intellectually equipped to judge its truth claims. I admire Hitchens for making sure his defenseless children are not inculcated with nonsense.

 

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The book “The God Delusion” presents plenty of positive assertions that are plainly false, and these have been minded by theists since the book was published. I shan’t regurgitate those. (Your point is pointless without examples)

The bible does not present plenty any assertions that are false.

Well, I’ve already stated some prime examples, but I’ll regurgitate them—just this one time.

1. Parthenogenesis is not possible in the human species (with the exception of advanced medicine techniques to which Mary had no access).

2. Human resurrection after hours and hours of death is not possible, since brain death is cannot be reversed. Given human physiology, the tale of Jesus’ resurrection and the tale of Jesus resurrecting Lazarus have to be considered pure fantasy.

3. Humans (Adam and Noah for example) cannot live into their 900s. Such a claim is pure idiocy. Even Moses’ life is far too long considering the historical period in which he is alleged to have lived.

4. Non-human animals cannot speak human language (except, perhaps, mimicking animals such as parrots). Surely, serpents and donkeys cannot speak Hebrew or any other ancient tongue. It’s childish silliness, and transparently so.

 

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Omission does not mean something is false. If so I could claim anything done by the authors you’ve mentioned is false because they have omitted refuting every claim by Christianity and have omitted many religious all together. If they are intelligent, they should have been able to refute every claim and every religion.

I’m sure Hitchens and Harris would be quite flattered that you deemed them worthy of comparison to the creator of the cosmos. Personally, I hold that creator to a higher standard than mere human animals.

An ordinary man or woman living in the first century could have written every single sentence in the Bible. There is no special knowledge or amazing insight to speak of. It’s all so utterly mundane as to be shocking. Does this not concern you?

 

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Dinosaurs would fall under beasts. So they are mentioned, under beasts. Gen. 28 “Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Every animal is included here. Germs appear to not be mentioned. However one can simply say that man was not to rule over germs and is why they are not mentioned. This part of Genesis is written prior to the fall, so one could also claim germs aren’t mentioned here because they didn’t exist yet.

Speaking of “beasts” in vague generalities is precisely what I would expect from an ignorant first century man or woman. No need for them to try to overextend themselves by speculating on that which they do not know. Had the Bible described dinosaurs in some depth, and explained just how large the universe is and how old our planet is, that really would be meaningful evidence to a skeptic. As it stands, the entirety of Genesis reads like it was written by an unlettered primitive who was hedging his bets.

I don’t think I want to waste my time commenting on the notion that eating a forbidden fruit led to the spontaneous existence of germs. My time would be better spent refuting the Goldilocks story, methinks.

 

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Do men rule over germs? I would say no, we don’t. So obviously they are excluded in something we are suppose to rule over.

Why not mention germs, at least in passing, elsewhere? Why waste so much space and time blathering on endlessly about the proper way to keep slaves and the proper way to go about agriculture? Don’t germs and bacteria and viruses warrant a tiny mention in the creator of the cosmos tome?

 

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A great deal of human misery could have been wiped out had Adam decided to not eat a piece of fruit. A great deal of human misery could have been wiped out had God not allowed any disease to ever exist. The point is Christianity isn’t false because God didn’t include any previously unkown medical knowledge. The bible isn’t a medical book, the OT is generally a historic (of the Jewish people) and prophetic book. The NT deals with the Church and Jesus.

The bible does not even contain medical knowledge that was known.

Again, I will refrain from wasting my time on the Adam and Eve story, which is so ludicrous as to belong in some remote tribal area of South America. Eating a piece of fruit created germs. Adam lived to be older than 900. Of course that’s all true….

I sound like a broken record: An ordinary man or woman living in the first century could have written every single sentence in the Bible. I expect much, much more from the creator of the cosmos. If anything should keep Christians awake at night worrying, it’s the utter mundanity of their holiest book. The Bible reads like the cobbled-together ravings of primitive, unlettered people living in the pre-scientific first century.

 

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This was not the point of the author. If you want anything else, your going to have to ask God since I’m not qualified to tell you why anyone does anything except myself.

In God’s eye, electricity, DNA, the age of the universe, etc. is not important.

I am in awe of you. You—personally—know the mind of God in a way that I find utterly fascinating. Rather than chalk the Bible’s mundanity up to its ignorant, primitive, unlettered authors, you claim to know the mind of the creator of the cosmos, and declare that said creator doesn’t care about DNA. Well, that solves that.

 

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You assume we will one day be able to cure cancer. You then assume this cure will be able to be written on two pages. So what if we can’t cure cancer or it can’t be written on two pages. How do you know Cancer has always existed?

You should be careful about throwing the word “you” around. I was quoting Sam Harris there. I made no claims about cancer in my own writing.

In any case, I certainly think the creator of the cosmos would have better spent his time writing about cancer and its possible cures—or, at the very least, its treatments—than all this nonsense about keeping the Sabbath holy and how livestock should be kept. If you are uncomfortable with the idea of curing cancer, then why not change that to describing cancer. God surely knew cancer would be coming (if it didn’t already exist), and many pious people eventually would suffer from its horrible, torturous ravages. Why not display some prescient knowledge and talk about cancer in the Bible?

Oh yes, because it was written by first century primitives.

 

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The bible doesn’t care about natural principles or science. It serves it’s purpose to record the history of the Jewish people and to reveal God to those who seek him.

It’s not that the Bible “doesn’t care” about natural principles. Rather, it’s that the authors didn’t understand natural principles in the slightest. They hedged their bets, a fact which is betrayed by the Bible’s utter mundanity.

 

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God could also send an angel to every single person and tell him the bible is true. He has chosen not to.

What a shame. God seems not to care about his “children” suffering eternal agony in Hell. All skeptics want is some good, hard evidence, and God stubbornly refuses to provide a shred of it. It rather harkens back to Yahweh’s temperament when he ordered genocide and stonings for minor—or non-existent—offenses.

 

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I think this statement can be proven false without much work. Since any person interviewed in the “Case for a Creator” by Lee Strobel proves it false, unless your going to claim they are not scientifically aware, and if so go ahead and prove it.

You mention the name of some creationist hack and I am supposed to surrender hard-fought scientific knowledge? I think not. Human brain death is irreversible, which makes human resurrection flatly impossible. Human parthenogenesis is also impossible. Non-human animals, such as serpents and donkeys, cannot speak Hebrew or Aramaic. They simply lack the physiological means to do so. The Bible is as rife with silliness as any Mother Goose story you might read.

 

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The book of Genesis mentions that the messiah will be born of a woman only. Given this is true, then all the ones you’ve mentioned could have copied this idea. (I realize there is probably some fancy Latin word to describe my answer, but given Christianity is true, my statement is true, and therefore not any “ad” thing.)

Parthenogenesis tales existed before Christianity and still stubbornly persist. None of those tales is true, including the one about Mary. How can I be so certain? Human parthenogenesis is not possible. You can throw a book of ancient Jewish folklore in my face all you want; that cannot change the scientific fact that human parthenogenesis is fiction. That you take one fictional tale as true and reject all other fictional tales is of no significance to me.

 

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Also if I’m not mistaken, several, if not most or all, other virgin birth stories are not true virgin births. They usually involve the “god” coming to earth and having sex with the girl. In all cases, the “god” is still considered the father. Christianity differs, for the baby in the womb is not simply the son of God, but is God come in flesh. This baby was God and existed with the Father for eternity (at least since the beginning). Hence Jesus could not be called a demigod, for he is God.

And none of that changes the fact that human parthenogenesis is impossible.

When I read your last comment, I immediately thought of an interesting individual: A man who is an expert on all things Humpty Dumpty. That person might be able to speak for hours about Humpty Dumpty, and go into great detail about his travails. But, that doesn’t change the fact that Humpty Dumpty never existed. Just like human parthenogenesis never has taken place—especially not in the first century amongst the impoverished commoners.

 

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And yet this “mundane” book, is still the world’s best seller having sold more than 5 billion copies, a lot more then any other book in history. Also most of the top ten are religious in nature.

What can I say? Parents have a sharply honed talent for inculcating their defenseless young. From there, religion spreads like a virus (an entity of which the Bible apparently was ignorant).

And, people love a good yarn. Always have, always will.

The road to truth is paved with evidence.


Susan
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simple theist wrote: I

simple theist wrote:

I don't know what is going on here. I wrote everything in MS Word and then posted it here and now it won't let me edit the colors or anything.

Using MS Word for writing posts to be copied into the forums causes all sorts of grief.  There are all sorts of hidden instructions for editing within Word.

If you wish to write in an editor prior to posting, please use a plain text document. 

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Brimstone
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Quote: Again, the Old


Quote:

Again, the Old Testament in concerned with the Jewish people, and so makes predictions concerning them. The New Testament is concerned with the Church. No part of the bible is concerned with the world. The bibles main reason for being written is not to show prophecies about the world.

Knowing the mind of God again, huh?

Is Simple Thiest wrong? What do you take to be the reason the Bible was written then? I happen to agree with Thiest on his statement. If one wanted to learn about Budda (for what ever reason), would he look in a book about Quantum Physics? Obviously not. So why would one go looking for scientific facts in a book about religion? It makes no sense. If you want to learn about the circumference of the earth or the make up on a cancer cell, read a text book. If you want to learn about God, Budda, or what ever deity, read the relevant scripture.


The other thing I wonder about is how you think the Bible is so mundane when it's filled with things you yourself call impossible: virgin births, speaking animals, long life spans, and resurrection. Dictionary.com gives two main definitions for the word mundane: 1) of or pertaining to this world or earth as contrasted with heaven; worldly; earthly; and 2) common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative. I suppose both options work for your thoughts of the Bible.

But if things like virgin births, speaking animals, long life spans, and human resurrection are all impossible by human means, then that means that for those things to happen, that God or some other supernatural force must have intervened. And these kinds of things certainly aren't a common place occurrence. So how mundane is the Bible?


LosingStreak06
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Interesting read. Buddha

Interesting read. Buddha wasn't a god, though. Seems like someone who did a lot of research would have bothered to look into that.