I Come with a White Flag and a Manifesto

sapphen
Theist
sapphen's picture
Posts: 232
Joined: 2007-01-22
User is offlineOffline
I Come with a White Flag and a Manifesto

what i've learned here

after reading the beautiful thoughts that each of you have, i see that we are very similar.  the only difference that separates an atheist and a theist is the belief of God.  we both are passionate, caring, kind, friendly, analytical, logical, and rational beings... apart from our faith in God.

what do we do now?


i pose that we still debate and talk with each other about our beliefs.  ask questions in good fun and admit when we don't have an answer.  quick answers are always full of holes and we all tend to have a "rant" that may prevent us from growing within or outside that "rant".  sometimes with such answers the other person may not feel they have truly been heard.  we both can agree that communication is an important attribute of mankind.  you guys have shown an excellent ability to communicate here.

we try our best to ignore each other's "bad apples" (angry / aggressive / defensive / stubborn / over passionate) and we continue conversation between the ones that are willing to talk.  coming to the conclusion that the hindrance of us both is religion. (my theist brothers, please give me a chance to state my case before you judge me).

could we ever unite under a common goal?

maybe the movement RRS started may have more possibilities with trying to end religion rather than people's right to believe in God.  with said statement, you could gain support from theists.  not attacking God but the concept of religion.  understanding that each of us have our beliefs and rights yet strive toward a common goal.

it would be an injustice and irrational to try to eradicate one's beliefs.  simply understand that we could have an ongoing debate on the topics and see where ride takes us.  each of us try to speak our case yet understanding that beliefs leads to discovery and we can have fun in the journey.  technically there is no evidence that God does or does not exist why mull the same issues over and over.

how could we get along with such a difference in opinion?

love and understanding.  i say that both sides needs to take a little bit of the animosity off their tongue, myself included.  i don't mean to ignore anyone's point of view because we both have a lot to learn from each other.  we need to realize that we are more similar than we are different.  each person is entitled to their beliefs, no matter if we want to believe in an invisible green cat sitting on our shoulders.  we need to approach the subject with a light heart and a grain of salt.  if the christians won't show you love and understanding then show them what they are supposed to do.

i know that it may be difficult to believe that both sides could agree to disagree.  we have a greater enemy to fight off, and that is the "religion".  everything else will work itself out in time.  we have fell into a rut and misjudged each other.  we have our own individual conceptions and not easily swayed.  we need to work hard to inform the new people of both sides rather than just one side.  if you refute yourself it gives a person time to consider what you have said.

religion has had it's age but now it may jeopardize God's teachings

i feel that religion has done some good and bad things for our society.  i also feel that theists have became too over confident and believe only because they where taught to.  they are afraid to question their beliefs...  i was.  i prayed and ran right out of here scared but something kept telling me to come back.  ironically i have grown in my belief in God moreso because you provoked questions.  my faith in God has grown 10 times than it would have if i was not with you.  i know that is not what was intended but nonetheless we can build off each other if only we seek the good sides and not focus only on the bad.

religion makes us scared to question because it says it "provides all the answers", religion created dogma, thoughtless rituals, and shown discrimination.  God created man, man created religion.  i think that we do need to break away from that and start going towards God instead of what the people tell us.  although i do believe some people are divinely lead we are human and subject to error.  we are lead by our convictions and each of us are a different part in the body of Christ.

what did Jesus teach?

we can understand that you may not want to have our God forced upon you, likewise we do not want the non-god forced upon us.  i would like to site biblical examples of how Jesus reached people, but from personal experience, we all know that shoving a pamphlet down your throat is not doing anything.  i hope that you do understand by fighting people with their tactics is only sinking to their level.

i have always felt that a christian should lead by example not by fear or force.  we should plant seeds and not over water them.  each of us as christians need to question our beliefs, read God's word and seek deeper understanding.  how many of us that claim to be christians are actually living the life?  we need a revival amoungst ourselves.  we need to stop forcing others and start loving them.  don't pluck the hair out of a friends eye, when there is a car parked in your own eye.

a challenge to theists

i am not saying by any means to get rid of churches or stop going.  i am not sure how to address that at this time, it is left to you and your convictions.  we need fellowship with each other but we also need to take the denomination off our front doors.  we should explore other churches of different beliefs.  we as christians would be unwise to thing that "our" way is the only right way and the other christians are wrong!  Jesus said that He was God in flesh and that we must accept Him into our hearts, beyond that it is up to debate.  we should be able to talk about that and let Christ do the final judgment.

also if you are choosen to be a voice of God, or pastor, you should not be living a life of luxury.  we have became too profitable and comfortable in our skin.  it has made us blind to what God wanted for you and His people.  we must humble ourselves and show the love that Jesus showed.  by our works would others see.

a challenge to atheists

understand that i do respect your opinion, i just want for you to respect ours.  i know that some of you do and i don't want to jump to any conclusions about what you do believe.  we are all decent people and we must accept the fact that even though "religion" cause so much bad, it was our faults.  mankind has a tendency to dominate and enslave other people.   it would be unfair to blame the people that are trying to do good.  none of us are perfect.

i am not asking you to abandon your goal to disprove God but only to stretch.  if a movement was to take place it would take some generations for it to occur.  some people are not ready to accept that move, don't make the same mistakes that religions has made.  use your own set of virtues to reach others even if others don't do the same.

if we plan for peace we must set the way for it

i am not asking theists or atheist to disregard their beliefs but to only show love and consideration for others.  we are each beautiful works of art with independent thoughts, God gave us our freewill.  we will never reach each other by force and discrimination.

we need to stop judging each other and start working on larger goals.  we need to be weary of our vices. don't lose touch with our spiritual side it is from there that our virtues shine.  laugh more, even if it seems inappropriate.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


sapphen
Theist
sapphen's picture
Posts: 232
Joined: 2007-01-22
User is offlineOffline
above is a work in

above is a work in progress.  i know it's long reading and i thank everyone in advance who reads through it.  i would love to hear your opinions, so feel free to share!

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


Yellow_Number_Five
atheistRRS Core MemberScientist
Yellow_Number_Five's picture
Posts: 1390
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
I can appreciate the olive

I can appreciate the olive branch a, sapphen, and I'm glad you've gotten something out of your experience here - even if that's only a better understanding of what seperates us and more importantly what we have in common.

Still, there are things you talk about that I cannot in good conscious support right now. They don't stem from your Christian POV on what we should do and why. Rather, I have a promlem with the live and let live approach you advocate generally speaking.

Let me preface this by saying that the majority of my family and I'd say about half of my close friends do believe in some sort of diety or another. I would never infringe upon their right to hold whatever beliefs they may have - though I will on occasion challenge such things. Individual beliefs don't bother me, what is done in the the name of such does.

For the last few decades, most atheists, some notable exceptions aside, have been of the "live and let live" philosophy. We formed the RRS, in part, because we saw such a stance was getting us nowhere, and that there were reall consequences to being so passive.

When politicians and preachers hold the reigns of our society and make policy for ALL of us based on what we see as irrational beliefs, we aren't doing ourselves any favors by being silent.

When issues like reproductive rights, mideast policy, scientific research and basic education are influenced to the degree that they are in our culture by such people and beliefs, it would be utter maddness to not step up and cry foul and challenge such things on a very basic and fundamental level.

I think you DO see that our enemies, and yours to a very real degree, are dogma, arrogance, ignorance, the blurring of the lines between church and state and blind faith and devotion. While I DO see your beliefs as irrational, I don't see you as part of this problem - rather as part of a potential solution.

You seem to see our common interests and our common problems. You also seem to understand that we have a lot in common when push comes to shove and that we're not your personal enemy or bad people - we're simply an all to often marginalized minority fighting for a bit of fair play and recognition; we'll that and we do want to fundamentally change the world we live in.

Still, like I said, I see you as part of the solution, and here is why. You understand these things and you probably have a better shot of making others who believe similarly to you understand than we do - simply because that sort of education would be coming from a source percieved as less hostile.

What I would propose is that if you really DO want a live and let live world where we simply debate things like religion for purely intellectual and spiritual purposes, that you speak up as well. When a politician makes policy based on religious beliefs or says something utterly asinine about science or atheists - you should be screaming just as loudly as we are.

When a politician or preacher claims a blastocyst has a soul, speak up. When the local school board wants ID taught, speak up. When homosexuals are denied rights based upon a religious notion of what marriage is, speak up.

Fundamentalists are your problem as much as they are mine, and it's time for believers to take up the fight and responsibility of fighting them as we've done.

When the dust settles, we can have a nice, civil conversation about beliefs, secure in the knowledge that at the end of the day neither of us our going to have our rights trampled or be railroaded into Orwellian nightmares by people much more ignorant and closed-minded and far less enlightened than ourselves.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


magilum
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2007-03-07
User is offlineOffline
I appreciate your allowing

I appreciate your allowing atheists to join the fold and be recognized as part of humanity. That's quite a revelation... that I have the capacity for caring or compassion despite my religious handicap. Thanks for that.
We really have to get past all this religion, and simply recognize people's right to make serious decisions that affect the entire world based on their intuitive knowledge of the wants of the persona crafted entirely by the religions we're getting past. Fantastic.

*Checks into Bellvue*


CrimsonEdge
CrimsonEdge's picture
Posts: 499
Joined: 2007-01-02
User is offlineOffline
As stated above,

As stated above, fundamentalists are the problem. As most Atheists will agree, I have absolutely no problem with theists, just their religion. Since we can't walk up and say "Hey, religion, whats up with XXX" we have to ask the theist which makes it come off as rude, mean, or whatever else you can associate with it. 

About the teachings of Jesus. Many Atheists believe that his basic teachings is fundamental human morality. I know I don't need a religion to tell me that I shouldn't rob a bank. All you have to ask yourself is this, if you aren't sure immediately.

"Will I feel bad after doing this?"

If the answer is "Yes, I will" then it's probably bad. Probably. 


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15830
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
"Insted of attacking

"Insted of attacking "God"...

"God/god/deity" are inseperable to religion. Certainly there are religious people who dont fund or fuel churches or politics. However, as long as people believe in these things the potential can reach into politics and goverment, and far too often it does. We see its affects on the news every single day, domestically and globally.

When we say, "end" religion, we do not mean via force of government. We mean through education and teaching critical thinking skills. 

"God/god/deity/supernatural" needs to be criticised and examined as well and I think it is a misscharacterization to say we are "attacking" religion or God/god/deity/supernatural.

In every other aspect of our lives in western society, when someone has questions or criticisms about something, be it governemnt, sports, education, buying a car, getting a job we question and examine. "Super natural" claims should not get a pass simply because of some tradition or simply because it is popular.

It is only when we are brave in questioning that we grow. I understand your "olive branch" and certainly we have a duty, if not to our neighbors, but to ourselves as indidividuals, to understand that I nor you, are the center of the universe.

"Can we get along" the answer is yes. But it should not come at the cost of the freedom to quesition criticise or even blaspheme. We simply need to take the responsibility of understanding, as individuals, that we are just that, individuals, and no one should expect their neighbor to be a clone of them.

If one makes a solid case for something and backs it up with something other than "My book says" or "It makes me feel good" then one should examine it. You rightfully examine other deity claims other than yours. We simply question one more deity than you do.

We want peace and value family and love and safty and shelter just like any other label. But please undertand that part of life is understanding that people wont always like me or you and people wont always agree. That doesnt mean we cant get allong. I just means we should agree to treat each other as individuals. 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


AtheistInWonderland
RRS local affiliate
Posts: 80
Joined: 2006-07-25
User is offlineOffline
Quote: i pose that we still

Quote:
i pose that we still debate and talk with each other about our beliefs.


I think that is the most important purpose that RRS serves.

Quote:
ask questions in good fun and admit when we don't have an answer.


I readily admit that I don't know if a god exists. Are you an agnostic theist? If not then you are admitting that you have an answer when you don't.

Quote:
could we ever unite under a common goal? maybe the movement RRS started may have more possibilities with trying to end religion rather than people's right to believe in God.


Whoa.. Is there anyone posting here who wants to end people's right to believe whatever they want? As far as uniting under a common goal; I appreciate any efforts you make to end religion, but religion isn't at the core of irrational beliefs - It's a product of irrational beliefs.

Quote:
with said statement, you could gain support from theists.  not attacking God but the concept of religion.


I attack the concept of god because it's not based on evidence. It's accepting claims as true on insufficient evidence that is at the core of irrational beliefs and it's all irrational beliefs that the world would be better off without.

Quote:
it would be an injustice and irrational to try to eradicate one's beliefs  simply understand that we could have an ongoing debate on the topics and see where ride takes us.  each of us try to speak our case yet understanding that beliefs leads to discovery and we can have fun in the journey.


I personally don't know any atheist who wants to forcibly eradicate any one's beliefs. We aren't out there yanking bibles out of peoples hands. We are trying to stimulate debate and throw our ideas on the pile. It is a war a war of ideas, not of force.

Beliefs do lead to discovery, but they have to travel through knowledge to get there. The god concept never gets past the belief part.

As for the ongoing debate (Which hasn't actually being going on that long in the scope of human history, we aren't that far removed from the days when freethinkers were burnt at the stake or otherwise felt they absolutely had to closet their beliefs.) the ride should take us to a more progressive society. At least a society that understands that atheists aren't corrupt fools who can do no good (Psalms 14:1), and that we have philosophical reasons for not believing rather than the lies that pastors and holy books have used to shape the public's opinion about why we disbelieve and has led us to be the most distrusted minority in America.

Quote:
technically there is no evidence that God does or does not exist


I'm sure you've been around the forum here long enough to know that the burden of proof is on the person making a claim that something exists.

Quote:
why mull the same issues over and over.


I won't mull over the same issues with the same person once I know they understand my position. The same issues get mulled over and over here because there is a constant flow of people both reading and posting.

Quote:
how could we get along with such a difference in opinion?


I do get along with people who hold different opinions than me.

Quote:
i say that both sides needs to take a little bit of the animosity off their tongue, myself included.


I don't feel that a theist who is trying to convince me that their views are right is treating me with animosity. It's when they attack my character rather than my ideas that I feel that they are treating me with animosity.

Quote:
each person is entitled to their beliefs, no matter if we want to believe in an invisible green cat sitting on our shoulders.


Do you feel that we are robbing people of their beliefs? If so, how so?

Quote:
we need to approach the subject with a light heart and a grain of salt.


If religion was just throwing around grains of salt then I would approach it with a light heart.

Quote:
i know that it may be difficult to believe that both sides could agree to disagree.


If I saw that religion didn't cause a negative impact on society then we might talk about agreeing to disagree, but until then I feel it's a moral duty to speak out against it. 

A lot of theists will never be able to agree to disagree because they are called upon to try to win converts and they think that the actions and beliefs of others will cause their god's wrath to come down on all of society.

Quote:
we have fell into a rut and misjudged each other.


Was there a time when atheists weren't misjudged?

Quote:
religion has had it's age but now it may jeopardize God's teachings


I challenge you to re-read the bible, but this time to do it with the idea that it could possibly be wrong and when you come across the filth, absurdities, injustice and immorality within it, don't whitewash it or do crazy mental gymnastics to try to reconcile it with what you know is right.

Quote:
we can build off each other if only we seek the good sides and not focus only on the bad.


There are no good sides to theism that can't be achieved without it. On the other hand there are many bad things about theism that can't be achieved without it.

Quote:
religion makes us scared to question because it says it "provides all the answers"


Religion makes people not want to question because it says it provides all the answers. Religion makes people scared to question because of scare tactics..whether it be hell, fear of social osterization or fear of displeasing god etc..

Quote:
God created man, man created religion.


God created man? You have evidence? If not why do you expect us to believe you and allow for you to build anything else upon that premise?

It's like if I said to you that I am typing this from the inside of a live whale at the bottom of the ocean and there are smurfs down here, we have a billion dollars and we just need you to come and get us. At what point do you stop to question what I am saying and write the rest off as non-sense? I stop right at the being inside of a live whale.  

Quote:
i think that we do need to break away from that and start going towards God instead of what the people tell us.  although i do believe some people are divinely lead we are human and subject to error.  we are lead by our convictions and each of us are a different part in the body of Christ.


This is the non-sense I was talking about. ^^^

Quote:
what did Jesus teach? we can understand that you may not want to have our God forced upon you, likewise we do not want the non-god forced upon us.


Who is forcing non-god on you? We are simply throwing our ideas on the pile. I don't know of any atheist who would take away your right to believe whatever you want. Perhaps you are feeling like we are forcing non-god on you because you can't refute our arguments.

Quote:
i would like to site biblical examples of how Jesus reached people, but from personal experience, we all know that shoving a pamphlet down your throat is not doing anything.


It's because nearly all of us are very familiar with Christianity. We know how Jesus reached people in the story, we just don't believe the story is true. Back to the inside of a whale analogy.

Quote:
i hope that you do understand by fighting people with their tactics is only sinking to their level.


I have nothing against people for standing up for what they believe in. I just believe they should be prepared to defend what they believe in and not think their belief is above honest scrutiny.  

Quote:
how many of us that claim to be christians are actually living the life?


I would say none. I don't think there has been anything close to a True Christian ever since the Dark Ages . Again I challenge you to re-read the bible without Jesus goggles on.

Quote:
a challenge to atheists

understand that i do respect your opinion, i just want for you to respect ours.


Do you respect the opinions of bin Laden, racists etc..? I wish for you to respect my right to hold my opinions, not my opinions that you disagree with.

Quote:
we are all decent people and we must accept the fact that even though "religion" cause so much bad, it was our faults.


I am proud to boast that I had nothing to do with the formation of any religions or holy texts.

Quote:
i am not asking you to abandon your goal to disprove God but only to stretch.


It's not my goal to disprove god. It's my goal to show people that there is no reason to believe there is one.

Quote:
if a movement was to take place it would take some generations for it to occur.


A movement is taking place right now.


jcgadfly
Superfan
Posts: 6791
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
I have no animosity to you

I have no animosity to you or most other theists (the ones that get my animosity - the problem has nothing to do with religion)

I do, however, have a little bit of a problem with a rep of the majority asking reps of the minority to respect their opinion as though you're being stopped from having one.

Just a peeve of mine, I guess. Nothing personal. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


zntneo
Superfan
Posts: 565
Joined: 2007-01-25
User is offlineOffline
I have noticed that theists

I have noticed that theists are less for actual freedom of religion then every atheist i have ever met. No atheist i know wants to take away the right to believe what ever you want. Some ,me included, just think that if you want to speak it as truth and make policy on those beliefs I will critsize it. I will demand evidence for these beliefs if it effects me in anyway, and telling me that it is the truth is effecting me. RElgious beliefs should be as much open to debate as politcal beliefs. They should not get a free pass,period.


Textom
Textom's picture
Posts: 551
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
sapphen wrote: maybe the

sapphen wrote:

maybe the movement RRS started may have more possibilities with trying to end religion rather than people's right to believe in God. with said statement, you could gain support from theists. not attacking God but the concept of religion. understanding that each of us have our beliefs and rights yet strive toward a common goal.

Like others here, I echo the sentiment that there are some goals between the two groups which are mutually exclusive.  For me personally, anything that encourages people to live in ignorance is intolerable.  Many religions only exist only because they are able to intimidate or fool people into a cycle of deliberate self-delusion. If a belief in god, while irrational, actually encouraged people to question and think for themselves, I would be in favor of it.

sapphen wrote:

i am not asking you to abandon your goal to disprove God but only to stretch. if a movement was to take place it would take some generations for it to occur. some people are not ready to accept that move, don't make the same mistakes that religions has made. use your own set of virtues to reach others even if others don't do the same.

 It's important to know that this sentiment is essentially the same argument that the U.S. government and white moderates used to give to African-American activists in the first half of the 20th century.  "Change will come, but you have to go slowly and wait."

(Not to compare the scale and importance of that political struggle with this one, but you can see the analogy.) 

So for the response, I'll quote from Martin Luther King Jr., "The time is always right to do what is right."

 

 

"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15830
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Good luck finding one. The

Good luck finding one. The Jeffersonian deists are few and far between.

Jefferson could not get ellected president today if he ran. He denied what he called the "magic" fable class of Jesus as being the same class as Minerva being born out of the brain of Jupiter.

Jefferson would most likely have liked to hang out with us than some fundy Robertson type. He would have been open, even to criticism of his own beliefs and wouldnt raise an eybrow to even blaspheming them.

Me, "Thomas, your "God of nature" is to me in the same ambigious class as any set religious label and I think you are just as full of it as they are"

Him, "Really really Brian? Why do you say that?"

NOT

Me, "Thomas, you are full of crap."

Him, "YOU HATE ME, DONT HURT MY FEELINGS|"

He wouldnt have been offended in the least to crictisism or even ridiclue. I think he would have simply asked why we say what we say.

I dont think any theist of any label need to worry about any atheist here seeking to use government to squash dissent. We merely want people to look hard at their own claims without fear. We also dont want any religion propped up by goverment, not just Christianity. It is that simple.

As shocking as it may sound to theist visitors we dont barbaque kittens or drink goats blood and we dont worship Hitler. We want the same things in life. A family that loves us, food on the table, roof over our heads and a safe place to live. 

The roadblock is not caused by atheists. We are not doing anything differently than other minority groups have done in the past. It is the fear of the unknown that causes the theist to needlessly fear us. Get over your fear and learn from us. If it doesnt change your mind, we wont force you to change your mind, but it should at least show theists that we are not that different and just as diverse in thinking, outside the issue of god belief.

Suprise, we fart, poop, pay taxes and will become worm food just like everyone else on the planet. 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


djneibarger
Superfan
djneibarger's picture
Posts: 564
Joined: 2007-04-13
User is offlineOffline
why is it that once theists

why is it that once theists run into a brick wall in their attempts to get atheists to agree that god is plausible, their next step is the "let's agree to disagree" argument? i can't fake respect for something that i find completely naive and ridiculous, and i shouldn't be asked to.

to commit to a battle against religion, but not against belief in god, is like saying you want to halt the production of eggs while refusing to confront the issue of the chicken that's laying them. 

humankind needs to pull it's collective head out of it's collective ass and realize that the bottle of religion in the fridge had an expiration date, and it went stale hundreds of years ago. 

www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15830
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
djneibarger wrote: why is

djneibarger wrote:

why is it that once theists run into a brick wall in their attempts to get atheists to agree that god is plausible, their next step is the "let's agree to disagree" argument? i can't fake respect for something that i find completely naive and ridiculous, and i shouldn't be asked to.

to commit to a battle against religion, but not against belief in god, is like saying you want to halt the production of eggs while refusing to confront the issue of the chicken that's laying them.

humankind needs to pull it's collective head out of it's collective ass and realize that the bottle of religion in the fridge had an expiration date, and it went stale hundreds of years ago.

Exelent analogy. It's kinda like when your friend walks out of the bathroom with toilet paper hanging out of their pants. The idiot says nothing, the friend points it out.

But in this honest criticism which I agree with we must not forget that we are all subject to human emotion and human flaws regardless of label.

We still have a duty to ourselves as individuals, to understand that if we have empathy and are capable of compassion than those we dissagree with can too.

Dont get me wrong. Anyone who knows me knows I am not afraid to throw a verbal punch. But I am damn sure not going to do what authoritiarian "I am better than you" egotistical rule does be it Hitler like or the Christianity of the dark ages.

I may bitch and complain about what absurdities are out there, but I wont seek to opress dissent because if it were not for my own freedom, I would be squashed myself.

Remember. There are 6 billion people on this planet and trying to force a utopia is absurd. 

I am not suggesting , "Lets agree to dissagree". But at the same time we should all say, "No matter how much we dissagree or even dislike each other, we dont have to kill or opress".

One is an issue of debate. The other is the issue of human rights. I have the right to bitch. I dont have the right to kill simply because someone believes something I think is absurd. Theists believe not believing is in a god is absurd. Should they have the right to opress us?

It is not a matter of right or wrong. We are right. But we cant expect to make progress if we become opressors ourselves like theists have in human history. 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


stillmatic
stillmatic's picture
Posts: 288
Joined: 2007-03-29
User is offlineOffline
I'm not going to comment on

I'm not going to comment on the content of your post, as I didn't make it all the way through. So many people don't understand this, but proper punctuation is not about being a grammar nazi. It's preventing your text from being an assault on my eyes.

 Please for the love of God capitalize your sentences. It just makes reading what you wrote so much easier. Maybe I'm just lazy, but I hate having to work just to pick out the sentences in the text.

"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien


sapphen
Theist
sapphen's picture
Posts: 232
Joined: 2007-01-22
User is offlineOffline
    dj, if you are

    dj, if you are suggesting that people don't have rights to their beliefs, i would suggest that the aggressive and suppressive nature that you hate in religion in only a mirror away. 

i respect you but you are foolish to scarecrow something you clearly did not read nor understand.  i am coming here to earn your respect by rational means.  i have not hit any "brick walls" for i am still growing and learning.  i try hard to understand what you guys are saying and i see a common goal that we can consider and talk about like "rational and reasonable" people.  there is no fault in giving another human being respect, you should try it sometime.

i did not pose an argument but a thought to be a basis of conversation. i was asking for creative input from my personal opinion.  if we are to find peace with different beliefs we both must sacrifice.

on piles thread, what do we scarifice?  i questioned every thought i had since i was 12 years old.  i put on the line my family, my wife's respect of me, my stand as a christian, my God's will, and my personal feelings. all that i ask is a little bit more respect than some retort you thought witty. i was hoping for a way that we can find a mends beyond the bigots of conventional religion.

 to me you are no different than the christians i fight with about love and understanding.  the same christians that come on here and spout ignorance and disgust. forgive my cander but you are out of line. if you are going to comment on something i suggest you pull it from somewhere else than your collective ass.

in order to obtain peace we must first have it in mind and bring our thoughts to it.  are you prepared to love you "partner" if she was to convert to christianity? all i ask is that we consider religion and God separate, if you would like to actually read my reasons then maybe then we can continue this in a less passionate discourse.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


jcgadfly
Superfan
Posts: 6791
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
sapphen: "are you prepared

sapphen: "are you prepared to love you "partner" if she was to convert to christianity?"

Interesting and ironic question as my wife (partner) disavowed me as soon as I told her of my atheism.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


sapphen
Theist
sapphen's picture
Posts: 232
Joined: 2007-01-22
User is offlineOffline
brain37, you are a better

brain37, you are a better man than i.  i think you summed up what dj might have been saying.  put in your words, i can completly accept and respect that.

i almost wish i had read your post first, thank you for comment. 

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


djneibarger
Superfan
djneibarger's picture
Posts: 564
Joined: 2007-04-13
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote: It is not a

Brian37 wrote:

It is not a matter of right or wrong. We are right. But we cant expect to make progress if we become opressors ourselves like theists have in human history.

 

it's a fine line to walk, but i firmly believe that exposing fraud and opening someone's eyes to the truth would only be oppression if done in a militant surrender-or-die fashion. 

www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens


sapphen
Theist
sapphen's picture
Posts: 232
Joined: 2007-01-22
User is offlineOffline
I completely understand

I completely understand Stillmatic. I have a bad habit of that but at least it isn't all caps and in one huge paragraph! lol. I have too certain pet peeves in sentence structure, I just have one less than you do. (Maybe more, just assuming).

I think short summery of what I wanted to say is that no one is ever going to believe the same thing as everyone else. We will always have different views but we should look for peace. That does not mean that we should not talk about our differences but in more civil and rational ways. I also suggest that we have a common problem which is religion.

I do believe that God is separate from religion and that religion has ran it's course. I think we need to unite on the similarities we have and let bygones be bygones. God never asked us to force our beliefs on others but to share and discuss. We both should have equal opportunity in that and it would help if we did it in a light-hearted attitude.

After reading your comments on the subject I believe I am only speaking to half the crowd. I now must journey to my brothers and try to tell them that religion is separate from God, without trying to force my opinion or offend their beliefs. Change does take some time and to borrow a friends idea and quote;

"The time is always right to do what is right." -Martin Luther King Jr.

We are similar in a lot of ways. There must be a way for peace.. maybe not now but we need to work towards it.

 

EDIT IN: rephrased "God made man, man made religion" to "religion is separate from God". 

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


sapphen
Theist
sapphen's picture
Posts: 232
Joined: 2007-01-22
User is offlineOffline
i'm sorry jcgadfly.  in all

i'm sorry jcgadfly.  in all respects she was wrong.  i would not dwell there.  there could have been a lot more in the mix than either of you knew of.  it is an everyday, uphill struggle to stay married to someone! ...i know from exerience and i'm only a few years into it.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15830
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
sapphen wrote: brain37,

sapphen wrote:

brain37, you are a better man than i. i think you summed up what dj might have been saying. put in your words, i can completly accept and respect that.

i almost wish i had read your post first, thank you for comment.

Thank you for the complement but please understand without prejudice that I DO HAVE FANGES "Not in the litteral sense" but in the "If I think you are full of crap I dont mince words" sense.

So be advised that I may thank you for your complement that does not obligate me to agree with everything you might claim.

Now accept that I am the greatest thing since sliced bread and we will have no futher beefs. That or roll a newspaper up and rapp me over the nose. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


sapphen
Theist
sapphen's picture
Posts: 232
Joined: 2007-01-22
User is offlineOffline
i understand Brain.  we are

i understand Brain.  we are all entitled to our beliefs and it is good to be able to discuss them without "mencing words".  thank you again for your comments.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15830
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
djneibarger wrote: Brian37

djneibarger wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

It is not a matter of right or wrong. We are right. But we cant expect to make progress if we become opressors ourselves like theists have in human history.

 

it's a fine line to walk, but i firmly believe that exposing fraud and opening someone's eyes to the truth would only be oppression if done in a militant surrender-or-die fashion.

I think I was making the same statement.

Any idiot who thinks it is their right, be they atheist or theist to squash dissent has a severe lack of empathy for human rights.

It is my position that deity belief is absurd. But what kind of human would I be to arrest or kill because they believe something I find to be absurd? Isnt that what theists think about those outside their religion? Isnt that what theists think of atheists? Isnt that the justification Hitler had for the genocide of Jews?

You cant force the the end of absurdities. You cant force people to like you. You can use your own voice. You can bitch, everyone can and is part of normal human behaivor. What is absurd is taking the point of "bitching" to the point of government policy.

I would be just as afraid of an atheist seeking autocratic rule as any atheist should be when a theist seeks rule by one.

Saying that deity belief is absurd doesnt give us license to genocide anymore than we'd want theists gassing us because we dont believe. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37