Theists: Who did you sacrifice today?

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Theists: Who did you sacrifice today?

This is a simple question for just the Christian theists out there.... If it's so important that Jesus "died" for our sins, where do you get this notion that murdering an innocent person is a suitable way of forgiving someone of their transgressions?

Never mind whether or not mankind deserves to have original sin in the first place -- that's a whole different topic. The topic here is whether or not sacrifice of innocent living creatures is a "moral" way to deal with a separate party's transgressions?

If so, please explain to us who and how you murder innocent living creatures in your daily life? I'm curious.

If not, why not? If it was good enough for god, why not us? Why isn't human sacrifice something we practice today? Do you think the notion of murdering an innocent person as immoral? Then how can this be reconciled with the whole jesus' sacrifice concept?

And don't you go creating circular references by quoting the bible and saying, "because the bible says so..." Your god gave you free will. I want to see you use your free will to objectively explain to me how killing a living creature makes things all better?  If god has taught you anything, it's the ability to identify what is and isn't moral behavior right?  So is human sacrifice moral or immoral?

 


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We shouldn't forget that it

We shouldn't forget that it wasn't that long ago that very little was known about the workings of the brain. One can now consider the belief in a soul irrational, but take away our present knowledge and it is easily conceivable to rationally arrive at something like a soul. It wasn't until empirical evidence became compelling enough that there was real justification in doubting the soul's existence.


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Deviant wrote: Thank you

Deviant wrote:
Thank you for your comment xamination, but I disagree. Correct me if I am wrong, but Jesus never said that he was the “son of God”. If anything that was externally cast upon him. The Lords Prayer is attributable to Jesus, right?

They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
      He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

- Luke 22:70(NIV)

 

Deviant wrote:
In the Lord's Prayer, the first two words are "Our Father". Jesus is trying to establish the nature of God; in this case that of father and child. This would rule out any possibility that God is a relentless and cruel tyrant that is often pictured in Theology. What sort of father would send their child to Hell?

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

- Matthew 10:28(NIV)

You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

- Matthew 23:33(NIV)

 

Deviant wrote:

The words are chosen carefully and intelligently: “Our” father, not “my” father, or “your” father, or “Jesus’’” father, but OUR father. “Our” eliminates any possibility of a “chosen race”; neither Jew, nor Arab, nor Buddhists, nor Atheist, nor Fundamental Christians, nor Mormons are the chosen or unchosen race. Jesus puts a stop to the fact that there is no chosen race, nationality, race, group, or territory that has superiority over any one group of human beings. “Our” father makes us brethren.

 

As long as man is on his spiritual path and in accordance to god/God, it makes no difference whatever “race” he belongs to.

 

So now the question is: What does it mean to be in god’s/God’s accordance?

 

This is where I need help.

Yes, God is everyone's father, according to the Bible, but he is also a judge as well.  He will, according to Revelations, judge the souls of men at the end of days.  And, as Jesus said, "no one comes to the father except through me".  So while God no longer discriminates while on Earth, he will after you die.

It should be noted, however, that the Jews are still God's chosen people.  Revelations notes that they shall recieve preferrential treatment in the last days before the return of Christ - they will be protected by Him, even if they have not come to Jesus, unlike the Gentiles, who must come to Jesus to escape God's wrath.

What does it mean to be in God's accordance?  To be on his side.  To support his belief, and to follow his teachings. 

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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Rigor_OMortis wrote: I do

Rigor_OMortis wrote:

I do remember someone saying "I like your Christ, I just don't like your Christians"... I somehow believe this was one of the causes.

Gandhi 

 

"This is the real world, stupid." - Charlie Brooker

"It is necessary to be bold. Some people can be reasoned into sense, and others must be shocked into it. Say a bold thing that will stagger them, and they will begin to think." - Thomas Paine


Pile
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A lot of you theists are

A lot of you theists are begging the question here... quoting the bible to justify the dogma isn't a rational approach towards evaluating whether or not any of this is meaningful.

Suffice to say, belief in god is irrational. If you take rationality out of it, we can't discuss this stuff. You will believe what you will believe and nobody can question your invisible friends.

That nothwithstanding, we can question the effect this belief causes upon the way theists act and contribute to society, and that's something up for discussion here.

Not a single theist really addressed the question on the value or significance of ritual sacrifice. I guess I figured that main point would be sidestepped. It's not difficult to recognize that if you're preaching morality and you don't want to be laughed at, it's wise to ignore some of the many crazy and immoral things that your god promoted.

So instead, the symbolism of sacrifice...? Ok, then it seems that god likes his people to suffer. Endorsing sacrifice is a great way of perpetuating misery. If we establish one thing through the bible, it's that god does inseed have quite a sadistic streak to him. If theists suggest that the absence of god is the absence of morality then we're "free" to do whatever panders to our selfish, hedonistic interests, right? So god exists to deny us various pleasures, and instead provide a path by which we can suffer more by following his rules and engaging in various rituals that pay homage to him at the expense of our own comfort.. and ultimately we're brainwashed to consider this prison "heaven?" So if this life is a place where we sacrifice our own lives for god, what is hell? This place, under christian rule, doesn't seem like it would be a very happy place at all. Christians have no mandate really to take care of each other or the environment. Unlike other religions, christianity does not have much respect for the environment. Feel free to trash things and wait until jesus shows up.

It seems to me, no matter which way you look at christianity, things don't look appealing; they don't make sense, and jesus or god's idea of the way we should behave isn't terribly consistent:

1. Either none of this exists - which most evidence suggests, and none of the dogma has any meaning beyond being a tome on culture, sociology, history and psychology.

2. Or maybe the christian god does exist, in which case, his priorities and teachings don't make sense, seem highly suspect in terms of non-objective views of decency, and what he offers involves toiling away in this life waiting for the next.

3. Or maybe it's more of an abstract, deist point of view. The bible is what it is, which is a storybook passed down and re-interpreted and blown out of preportion. In that case, any attempt to "understand" the nature of god seems like a complete exercise in futility.

Either way, none of the choices here seem paletable, except the one that denies all the supernatural junk, because at least in that option, you're left with the world around you, which you can work to make better and see results.

 


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Pile wrote: Not a single

Pile wrote:
Not a single theist really addressed the question on the value or significance of ritual sacrifice. I guess I figured that main point would be sidestepped. It's not difficult to recognize that if you're preaching morality and you don't want to be laughed at, it's wise to ignore some of the many crazy and immoral things that your god promoted.

I did.  It is to demonstrate piety to the God/Gods.  Then again, I'm not a theist. 

Pile wrote:
So instead, the symbolism of sacrifice...? Ok, then it seems that god likes his people to suffer. Endorsing sacrifice is a great way of perpetuating misery. If we establish one thing through the bible, it's that god does inseed have quite a sadistic streak to him. If theists suggest that the absence of god is the absence of morality then we're "free" to do whatever panders to our selfish, hedonistic interests, right? So god exists to deny us various pleasures, and instead provide a path by which we can suffer more by following his rules and engaging in various rituals that pay homage to him at the expense of our own comfort.. and ultimately we're brainwashed to consider this prison "heaven?" So if this life is a place where we sacrifice our own lives for god, what is hell? This place, under christian rule, doesn't seem like it would be a very happy place at all. Christians have no mandate really to take care of each other or the environment. Unlike other religions, christianity does not have much respect for the environment. Feel free to trash things and wait until jesus shows up.

 The purpose of God declaring certain actions sin isn't for his own sadistic enjoyment, but for the good of one's own life and humanity in general.  Here are the "moral laws" of the 10 commandments - tell me which are foolish to follow - 

Honor thy Mother and Father

Thou shalt not murder

Thou shalt not commit adultery

Thou shalt not steal

Thou shalt not bear false witness

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's shoes.

 As for the enviornmental issue, some Christians do feel that way.  But not all.  Don't stereotype.

 

 

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


Pile
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xamination wrote:

xamination wrote:

Pile wrote:
Not a single theist really addressed the question on the value or significance of ritual sacrifice. I guess I figured that main point would be sidestepped. It's not difficult to recognize that if you're preaching morality and you don't want to be laughed at, it's wise to ignore some of the many crazy and immoral things that your god promoted.

I did. It is to demonstrate piety to the God/Gods. Then again, I'm not a theist.

Well, I am not convinces you're an atheist. You may call yourself some kind of deist or new-age goofball, but you preach like a christian. What are you?

And anyway, demonstrating piety to the gods still doesn't answer my question, which is whether or not sacrifices of this nature are appropriate now, or were even appropriate then?

xamination wrote:

The purpose of God declaring certain actions sin isn't for his own sadistic enjoyment, but for the good of one's own life and humanity in general. Here are the "moral laws" of the 10 commandments - tell me which are foolish to follow -

Honor thy Mother and Father

Thou shalt not murder

Thou shalt not commit adultery

Thou shalt not steal

Thou shalt not bear false witness

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's shoes.

As for the enviornmental issue, some Christians do feel that way. But not all. Don't stereotype.

How about you tell me:

* Why we have to get to number 6 on God's priority list before his "moral laws" begin to actually make sense and promote something close to what we consider moral behavior? Why are the top commandments centered around pandering to his fragile ego? If morality was such an important part of his teachings, why was it so low on his list?

* Which of any of the above "moral laws" that are supposedly credited to god, are not something that you can find in virtually any sentient civilization regardless of whether they're theistic?

* So what does god have to do with it? Who in their right mind won't eventually figure out that murdering another creature is not a good idea if you value your own security? Do we really need a disembodied voice from the heavens, accompanied by lightning bolts, to make us aware of this spectacular revelation?

So again, what is god for, except to be a terrorist used by certain factions looking to control and oppress weak-minded people?

 

 

 


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Pile wrote: Well, I am not

Pile wrote:

Well, I am not convinces you're an atheist. You may call yourself some kind of deist or new-age goofball, but you preach like a christian. What are you?

And anyway, demonstrating piety to the gods still doesn't answer my question, which is whether or not sacrifices of this nature are appropriate now, or were even appropriate then?

I didn't say I was an atheist - just that I wasn't a theist.  As to your question of if it was appropriate - well, that depends if the religion is true.  If the given God exists, then yes, and if the God does not exist, then no.

 

Pile wrote:
* Why we have to get to number 6 on God's priority list before his "moral laws" begin to actually make sense and promote something close to what we consider moral behavior? Why are the top commandments centered around pandering to his fragile ego? If morality was such an important part of his teachings, why was it so low on his list?

 You are asking me to tell you why God values certain things over others.  I don't know - ask him yourself.

 

Pile wrote:
* Which of any of the above "moral laws" that are supposedly credited to god, are not something that you can find in virtually any sentient civilization regardless of whether they're theistic?

I wasn't saying that they were somehow different or holy - I was just pointing out that they werent amoral.

 

Pile wrote:
* So what does god have to do with it? Who in their right mind won't eventually figure out that murdering another creature is not a good idea if you value your own security? Do we really need a disembodied voice from the heavens, accompanies by lightning bolts, to make us aware of this spectacular revelation?

I didn't say he did.  I was just defending the morality of such commandments.  Don't make statements that you cannot defend. 

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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xamination wrote: I didn't

xamination wrote:

I didn't say I was an atheist - just that I wasn't a theist. As to your question of if it was appropriate - well, that depends if the religion is true. If the given God exists, then yes, and if the God does not exist, then no.

So what are you? Why are you so afraid of outlining what you believe?

 


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I'm not afraid - I'm just

I'm not afraid - I'm just lazy.

But since you asked... 

I am not theist - I do not believe in any God or omnipotent being(s) at this time.  I am not atheist - I do not deny the possibility of their being gods.  I follow no organized religion right now, because I have not found one that strikes me as true yet.  But at the same time, I do not have a problem in believing in a god - namely for two reasons.  One,
I accept the possibility of a theistic religion being true.  I do not want to miss out on the truth because I was already set against it.  Two, I believe in the spiritual.  I know it sounds corny, but I have to follow my heart here.  I have read, heard, seen, and experienced too many illogical things in my life to throw all of this away to mental weakness.

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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xamination wrote: I am not

xamination wrote:

I am not theist - I do not believe in any God or omnipotent being(s) at this time. I am not atheist - I do not deny the possibility of their being gods. 

You may want to read This in order to help clarify your posistion. 


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Well, I was going by the

Well, I was going by the dictionary.com form of atheism - "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."  I do not deny the possibility of existance.

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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xamination wrote: Well, I

xamination wrote:

Well, I was going by the dictionary.com form of atheism - "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings." I do not deny the possibility of existance.

 I don't think that's an accurate description.

It's more of a person who lacks a belief, usually in any specific manfestation of a creator.

Atheists do not deny the "possibility" - that definition is wrong.

 


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xamination wrote: I'm not

xamination wrote:

I'm not afraid - I'm just lazy.

But since you asked...

I am not theist - I do not believe in any God or omnipotent being(s) at this time. I am not atheist - I do not deny the possibility of their being gods. I follow no organized religion right now, because I have not found one that strikes me as true yet. But at the same time, I do not have a problem in believing in a god - namely for two reasons. One,
I accept the possibility of a theistic religion being true. I do not want to miss out on the truth because I was already set against it. Two, I believe in the spiritual. I know it sounds corny, but I have to follow my heart here. I have read, heard, seen, and experienced too many illogical things in my life to throw all of this away to mental weakness.

I see a few problems here:

1. You have mischaracterized what atheism entails. Only "strong" atheism says there is no god and very few people are strong atheists. Most are weak atheists, meaning they don't believe in a god. There's a difference between not believing and believing that no god exists. 99% of atheists are probably the former.

2. You're playing Pascal's Wager. Right off the bat, this is a paradox trap. What if the real test of God's free will was to see who would reject him? Maybe he's pretending to be a sadistic bastard to see which of his children have the guts to deny his existence, and those are the ones who get to heaven? What about that? It's an endless loop of loopiness.

3. None of us are closed minded about the "truth". If Jesus shows up and parts the Pacific Ocean, and we witness this, I guarantee you we won't be "dead set against it."

4. You pulled the "Goddidit!" card. Just because something appears illogical to you, doesn't mean a magical sky fairy is responsible. Grow up.

 


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Pile wrote: 2. You're

Pile wrote:

2. You're playing Pascal's Wager. Right off the bat, this is a paradox trap. What if the real test of God's free will was to see who would reject him? Maybe he's pretending to be a sadistic bastard to see which of his children have the guts to deny his existence, and those are the ones who get to heaven? What about that? It's an endless loop of loopiness.

How exactly did I commit Pascal's Wager?

Pile wrote:
3. None of us are closed minded about the "truth". If Jesus shows up and parts the Pacific Ocean, and we witness this, I guarantee you we won't be "dead set against it."

Not true - I was talking to some other people here who said that they would not accept God if he were to come down - mainly for moral objections.

Pile wrote:
4. You pulled the "Goddidit!" card. Just because something appears illogical to you, doesn't mean a magical sky fairy is responsible. Grow up.

Agreed.  Most of these are explainable one way or another.  Yet I still believe that every miracle ever recorded, every touch humanity thinks it has had with the supernatural is a misconception or a lie.

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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pile, grow up??  at what

pile, grow up??  at what point does one expressing his opinion entail he must grow up?  because he does not see your perspective you assume he is immature and naive.  LOL.. seriously pile, maturate. Eye-wink

from what i am understanding you are coming to a lot of conclusions about a God you do not believe in and other people's point of view.  please correct me if i am wrong but are you stating that 99% of "atheist" don't believe in God but they believe He might exist? 

i also feel you are scarecrowing and leaping to inductions.  i did not perceive anything he said that was the "goddidit" card.  he said that in his experiences he can not fully believe that their is nothing behind it... isn't that similar to the description that you gave your atheist brothers?

i don't want to assume so if i did not portray your thoughts clearly enough please elaborate.  otherwise try to add something a little more rational for others to reply to.  it seems like you just placed in commonly used phrases and a misunderstood notion, numbered it and felt witty about it... only to show your raw emotion at the end to say "grow up".

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: pile, grow

sapphen wrote:

pile, grow up?? at what point does one expressing his opinion entail he must grow up? because he does not see your perspective you assume he is immature and naive. LOL.. seriously pile, maturate. Eye-wink

Let me illustrate this another way:

Do you understand what I mean now? Or are you still a child in terms of your mental development, and therefore need to GROW UP.

There is virtually nothing you can say about the tooth fairy or santa clause, that you can't say about religious dieties. The amount of dubious "evidence", any claims of supernatural abilities, the effect x number of people sharing in the delusion has on the reality of the matter, nothing.

And you apply some rational standards when you question the reality of Humpty Dumpty, but not Jesus? Why not? Becuase you haven't grown up, and grown out of little baby childish myths. GROW UP. That's the way it really is. If you don't like it, it still doesn't detract from the fact that you have the same irrational beliefs of a three year old in some respects.

sapphen wrote:

from what i am understanding you are coming to a lot of conclusions about a God you do not believe in and other people's point of view. please correct me if i am wrong but are you stating that 99% of "atheist" don't believe in God but they believe He might exist?

99% of atheists don't believe in god. Because there is no evidence of god.

Likewise, 99% of atheists would likely admit they cannot prove god doesn't exist, so they can't say for sure he isn't. But in light of evidence, they LACK THE BELIEF.

So the typical atheist is open to the possibility there might be a god IF and ONLY IF he can be proven using rational, verifiable evidence.

I don't believe in any of religions' defined gods. I'd like to think there may be higher level life forms in the universe, but I'm not wasting any time or energy trying to speculate their intent or purpose because I have no evidence of such existence. I don't believe. But I am open-minded. That's what a typical atheist thinks IMO.


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I hate to jump in with the

I hate to jump in with the question so late, but it occured to me while I was reading the first few pages of this thread.  My question concerns prayer and the Abraham/Isaac story.  So, if the point of this was not to sacrifice the child, but instead to test his devotion, does that not in some way rule out the idea that God has a clue what we are thinking (and therefore he can't hear our prayers)?  Not only was God completely unsure as to where Abraham stood, but he chose to emotionally torture a small child as a way to find out.  Clearly if God were in ANY way "inside his head", this test would have been pointless.  If this is true... God has NO idea who is or isn't an atheist.   Right?

“The four most over-rated things in life are champagne, lobster, anal sex and picnics.”
-Christopher Hitchens

"I don't believe in God, but I'm afraid of Him."
-Gabriel Garcia Marquez


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pile, i find it somewhat

pile, i find it somewhat difficult following your thought process.  in some ways i would love to say that your name and avatar says it all.  nonetheless, i respect your opinion but i want to leave you with a key phrase... seek first to understand, then to be understood. (-Stephen Covey).

i understand that you don't believe in God because you have no proof but i think trying to reach a christian by comparing something we obviously don't believe in to God is a understatement and not rational.  ROFL, it's not like you even introduced an "original idea" and i am suggesting that you only put that in there as a personal attack but i take no offense.  i understand it will take some time for us to understand each other.

you are telling me that i am a fool and childlike in nature because i have personal proof of my God.  that would be like me calling you closed minded and mean-natured because you don't believe me. i would like to keep this professional but if you like just slinging "piles of crap" at us, i don't care to participate.  just because you think we came from monkeys doesn't mean that we should act like them.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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AReasonableLu wrote:   I

AReasonableLu wrote:

 

I hate to jump in with the question so late, but it occured to me while I was reading the first few pages of this thread.  My question concerns prayer and the Abraham/Isaac story.  So, if the point of this was not to sacrifice the child, but instead to test his devotion, does that not in some way rule out the idea that God has a clue what we are thinking (and therefore he can't hear our prayers)?  Not only was God completely unsure as to where Abraham stood, but he chose to emotionally torture a small child as a way to find out.  Clearly if God were in ANY way "inside his head", this test would have been pointless.  If this is true... God has NO idea who is or isn't an atheist.   Right?

Perhaps.  Another idea would be that the test of Abraham's devotion was to send a message to Abraham.  After Abraham had gone through his preperations to sacrifice Isaac and was stopped, there would be much to reflect on.  Or it was just a formality.  Or it was just a story.

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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Pile, let me try to explain

Pile, let me try to explain this to you.  There is one main fundamental belief that seperates religion from Atheism - the supernatural.  All religions believe in it, Atheists do not.  That is what it comes down to.  I believe in the supernatural - what more, I believe I have experienced a few times.  So, or as I am led to believe, does Sapphen.  No, I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy, Casper, Santa, The Easter Bunny, unicorns, or the weird guy in the top-left corner.  Nor do I believe that Christianity is the source of the supernatural.  Sapphen does.  What we agree on, as do billions of others throughout history, is the existance of the supernatural.  The belief that Christianity is the source of the supernatural is not absurd.  I don't think it is, but I won't throw away this basic belief because I have not found where it comes from.  If you don't believe in the supernatural, that is your right.  I do.  Many do.  Don't insult those who do just because you don't.

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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Pile wrote: sapphen

Pile wrote:
sapphen wrote:

pile, grow up?? at what point does one expressing his opinion entail he must grow up? because he does not see your perspective you assume he is immature and naive. LOL.. seriously pile, maturate. Eye-wink

Let me illustrate this another way:

Do you understand what I mean now? Or are you still a child in terms of your mental development, and therefore need to GROW UP.

Woah, hang about a bit there pile. Kids don't horde nuclear weapons, kids don't derive racist, bigoted, corrupt worldviews from belief in Santa Claus. You shout down childhood and talk up adult maturity as though it's the all encompassing wonder of humanity. Sorry It's just not, it's adult realities and worldviews that seep poison into our communities, not the childrens genuine and imaginative wonder. You need to take just one more look at the perpetrators you deign, they are the least childishy innocent in their imaginations of all of us anywhere.  

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Pile
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sapphen wrote: pile, i

sapphen wrote:

pile, i find it somewhat difficult following your thought process. in some ways i would love to say that your name and avatar says it all. nonetheless, i respect your opinion but i want to leave you with a key phrase... seek first to understand, then to be understood. (-Stephen Covey).

i understand that you don't believe in God because you have no proof but i think trying to reach a christian by comparing something we obviously don't believe in to God is a understatement and not rational. ROFL, it's not like you even introduced an "original idea" and i am suggesting that you only put that in there as a personal attack but i take no offense. i understand it will take some time for us to understand each other.

you are telling me that i am a fool and childlike in nature because i have personal proof of my God. that would be like me calling you closed minded and mean-natured because you don't believe me. i would like to keep this professional but if you like just slinging "piles of crap" at us, i don't care to participate. just because you think we came from monkeys doesn't mean that we should act like them.

You can infer I'm a "pile" if you want. I take no offense that anyone else may dislike my opinions - and let's be honest, many of us on these forums have no personal experience with each other so if we engage in ad-hominems, it's a superficial exercise used to call attention to how passionate we feel the other person is misguided. I don't have a problem with that. I'm a big boy. People can call me an asshole to my face and I respect their honesty.

Let me explain this: I don't believe in god just because "I have no proof". That's one reason why I don't believe in god, but as is evidenced by the theme of this topic: Even if god existed, what he teaches; what he stands for; what he promises mankind MAKES NO GODDAMN SENSE TO ANYONE WHO IS NOT, AT LEAST PARTIALLY MENTALLY RETARDED.

When I compare belief in god to believe in Santa Claus, I'm not using the analogy to engage in an ad hominem. I know you think I am. When I suggest that christians are suffering from, at the least a mild form of mental retardation, again this is NOT a personal attack. It is a clinical, scientific, observation. It's a claim that I and thousands of others here in these forums are more than capable of backing up with lots of evidence.

I understand you may not appreciate being compared to a child in terms of your mental development. You don't like the suggestion that your belief in god is a form of mental retardation. I'm sorry. If you had the flu, and I said you had the flu. I'm not calling you a "sick bastard" because I don't like you. I am recognizing that you have a very specific, verifiable, clinical condition.

You can paint it however you like. If you believe in little sky fairies, whether they put money under your pillow, make you hear voices in your head, live under your bed, or offer you eternal salvation if you say their son's name, you are suffering from a condition where your cognitive abilities are not functioning properly.

That's the way it is.  If you don't like it, you can do what most of your deluded friends do, which is surround yourself with other deluded friends to help you maintain the illusion.  But when you come out into the light, in the eyes of everyone else, you have mental issues that are stunting your intellectual growth.  I can prove it.  A hundred other people here can PROVE IT.  We're still waiting for you to prove your delusions are real.  You can't.  Who here has the child brain? 


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Eloise wrote: Woah, hang

Eloise wrote:

Woah, hang about a bit there pile. Kids don't horde nuclear weapons, kids don't derive racist, bigoted, corrupt worldviews from belief in Santa Claus. You shout down childhood and talk up adult maturity as though it's the all encompassing wonder of humanity. Sorry It's just not, it's adult realities and worldviews that seep poison into our communities, not the childrens genuine and imaginative wonder. You need to take just one more look at the perpetrators you deign, they are the least childishy innocent in their imaginations of all of us anywhere.

I imagine if you gave a child control of a military force you might see more success in Iraq.

 


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pile, i appreciate your

pile, i appreciate your newest reply.  although i still don't agree, i actually felt you where going somewhere with it and used faint traces of rationality to get there.  to be honest my last 2 responses have been terrible, doing the very thing i was critiquing you on.   i am very sorry.  you do have a point about passions and i do, sarcastic remarks aside, respect your thought process.  thank you for keeping a sound mind.

if i am not mistaken can mental retardation be tested? isn't there something like a "cat scan", IQ test or any other tests that can verify if a retardation is present?

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote:

sapphen wrote:

if i am not mistaken can mental retardation be tested? isn't there something like a "cat scan", IQ test or any other tests that can verify if a retardation is present?

Absolutely. One symptom of Schizophrenia is, "strange beliefs that are not based in reality and that the person refuses to give up, even when presented with factual information." In technical terms this is called a "delusion."

Another symptom of Schizophrenia is hallucinations: "perceiving sensations that aren't real, such as seeing things that aren't there, hearing voices, smelling strange odors, having a "funny" taste in your mouth and feeling sensations on your skin even though nothing is touching your body. Hearing voices is the most common hallucination in people with schizophrenia. The voices may comment on the person's behavior, insult the person or give commands."

Christians commonly exibhit both delusion and hallucinations.

In fact, you might want to check here to see if you have more of the symptoms of Schizophrenia.

 This is just one of many different types of mental problems that a theist may typically have that has not been properly diagnosed.


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Pile wrote: Eloise

Pile wrote:
Eloise wrote:

Woah, hang about a bit there pile. Kids don't horde nuclear weapons, kids don't derive racist, bigoted, corrupt worldviews from belief in Santa Claus. You shout down childhood and talk up adult maturity as though it's the all encompassing wonder of humanity. Sorry It's just not, it's adult realities and worldviews that seep poison into our communities, not the childrens genuine and imaginative wonder. You need to take just one more look at the perpetrators you deign, they are the least childishy innocent in their imaginations of all of us anywhere.

I imagine if you gave a child control of a military force you might see more success in Iraq.

 

What do you mean by success? 

 

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Eloise wrote: Pile

Eloise wrote:
Pile wrote:
Eloise wrote:

Woah, hang about a bit there pile. Kids don't horde nuclear weapons, kids don't derive racist, bigoted, corrupt worldviews from belief in Santa Claus. You shout down childhood and talk up adult maturity as though it's the all encompassing wonder of humanity. Sorry It's just not, it's adult realities and worldviews that seep poison into our communities, not the childrens genuine and imaginative wonder. You need to take just one more look at the perpetrators you deign, they are the least childishy innocent in their imaginations of all of us anywhere.

I imagine if you gave a child control of a military force you might see more success in Iraq.

 

What do you mean by success?

I suspect a child can learn from his mistakes. I'm not so confident our President can. Any improvement in the status quo would be more successful than what we're seeing now. We have a totally close-minded leader who refuses to take anybody's advice and lives in a dream world where when things don't go his way, he thinks it's everybody else's fault but his own.

My dog could probably achieve more success in Iraq. And by "success" I'm talking relatively. In a larger sense, I don't think there is any chance of actual "success." That was a doomed plan before it was even implemented.


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Pile wrote: sapphen

Pile wrote:
sapphen wrote:

if i am not mistaken can mental retardation be tested? isn't there something like a "cat scan", IQ test or any other tests that can verify if a retardation is present?

Absolutely. One symptom of Schizophrenia is, "strange beliefs that are not based in reality and that the person refuses to give up, even when presented with factual information." In technical terms this is called a "delusion."

Another symptom of Schizophrenia is hallucinations: "perceiving sensations that aren't real, such as seeing things that aren't there, hearing voices, smelling strange odors, having a "funny" taste in your mouth and feeling sensations on your skin even though nothing is touching your body.

 

Similar symptoms are described as synethesia. Synesthetics have strange beliefs not apparently based in reality like for example 'the number 1 is a male dressed in a grey suit' and they won't give them up if they can help it, but they are not delusional and can actually do successful modular analysis on their objects using those not-real definitions.

At best synesthetic adaptation can extend the human minds capacity for comprehension, computation and memory.

Synesthetes practically adapt associating sense phenomena. A Schizophrenic, on the other hand, although he/she experiences a remarkably similar phenomenon, associates it irrationally and therefore impractically and attempts to adapt the world to compensate.

 either way, it's not the apparently dissociate sensations which are unrealistic, but the persons way of dealing with them which can be very unrealistic and dangerous.

 

 

pile wrote:

Christians commonly exibhit both delusion and hallucinations.

Absolutely, I agree with you, Christian faith exhibitions are nothing short of delusionsal nonsense associations and in that way they are very schizophrenic like. I wouldn't apply synethesia to a garden variety loon speaking tongues on the church floor, however I don't think the pure ideas of extra-sensory experience and synesthetic adaptation are completely unrelated. 

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Eloise wrote:

Eloise wrote:

Absolutely, I agree with you, Christian faith exhibitions are nothing short of delusionsal nonsense associations and in that way they are very schizophrenic like. I wouldn't apply synethesia to a garden variety loon speaking tongues on the church floor, however I don't think the pure ideas of extra-sensory experience and synesthetic adaptation are completely unrelated.

Delusion is delusion. You can reason that one delusion isn't as bad as another, but they still indicate mental problems.

It may seem innocuous for someone to believe in a mythological entity, but when groups of these people get together, bad things happen, like they run planes into buildings. And even the moderate deluded people contribute towards the end result perpetrated by the extremists.

It's time to give up all these delusions. You christians need to recognize that all the blood of your fellow theists' crimes, past, present and future, is also on your hands.