heart to heart -rather than- fact to fact

sapphen
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heart to heart -rather than- fact to fact

want to try something new in this post.  take it down a notch from all the curriculum and evidence from each side.... sit down and tell us why you personally agree or disagree with religion without the use of works sited.

it's not that you can't use facts to support your points but i want the meat of why.  i want to give everyone the freedom to put down our guards and tell a story of what impacted you the most or a thought of why we believe what we do.  what was the breaking point or what was your personal proof?

too often we got lost in what ways to debate another person and we don't slow down and have a conversation.   you can get crazy if you want in here cause the box is boundless, step out here and lets embrace the sincerity of our minds.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


sapphen
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wow.. nice response Vorax.

wow.. nice response Vorax. i really didn't mean for you to read that much into that, lol. i was trying to say that if we see a rock.. we develope rational evidence about what a rock is. we have a personal experience with that rock... not that stories where passed down about a rock.

thank you for bringing that to my attention. i can understand where you are going. i have personal experience with God and that is left up to each of you to question it. i don't want to tell my daughter that i believe in God so she should. i want her to question for herself and experience for herself. if she took my word she wouldn't really know God like i do and that would defeat the purpose.

yet... would many non-beilevers still believe if they had no reason? if so why did we first start questioning?

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote:

sapphen wrote:
wow.. nice response Vorax. i really didn't mean for you to read that much into that, lol. i was trying to say that if we see a rock.. we develope rational evidence about what a rock is. we have a personal experience with that rock... not that stories where passed down about a rock. thank you for bringing that to my attention. i can understand where you are going. i have personal experience with God and that is left up to each of you to question it.

Do you agree that there were thousands of Micmaq or Hindus or wiccans, etc. who also had personal experiences (and still do) with their gods? If so, is there many gods? If not many gods, then is it one god talking to the people? If so, then why are all them sure their religion is the right one, yet all of them have vastly different beliefs in what their god is and what beliefs they should follow.

Quote:
i don't want to tell my daughter that i believe in God so she should. i want her to question for herself and experience for herself. if she took my word she wouldn't really know God like i do and that would defeat the purpose. yet... would many non-beilevers still believe if they had no reason? if so why did we first start questioning?

That is noble, but are you really? I will believe you, but only if you are not going to bring your daughter to church, have her participate in prayer, and if she asks why we are here, or is there a god, you answer honestly with "I don't know - no one does"

To do any less, you are not being fair to her, you are passing your beliefs on to her and thus influencing her - if you do that, it has been statistically shown that there is a 90+% chance that she will follow what you believe.

"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax

Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.


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For me, what impacted me

For me, what impacted me most, was learning about people of the world.  Ghandi was the start of my disconnect with my church.  I couldn't reconcile him going to hell.  The idea that this supreme god would send Ghandi to hell just because he didn't believe in him was just unreasonable.  I refused to believe that god would be so closed-minded and ignorant of the world to value faith over deeds.  I then started thinking about other religions and how close their faiths are.  Being a Roman Catholic these 'similar' religions were not acceptable and would all go to hell as well.  I just didn't get it.  You play a game of telephone with a group of kids and the message from one end to the other gets distorted.  Why was it not reasonable to assume that in different areas of the world that people would get a slightly different story from the same source?

Religious faiths just seemed too closed-minded.  Surely if I could see the good in people and the similarities in religion god would be able to? Why would god preach love and then not accept a difference in the spelling of his name? It just didn't make sense.

From there I slowly seperated myself from the church.  Awhile later I just stopped believing in god.  Nothing specific to transition from the churches god and no god existing...it just didn't seem sensible to believe in a god once I gave up belief in the god i was raised with.


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humm... i really don't think

humm... i really don't think i want to get into the wiccan gods. i will have to say that i used to be wiccan and i've had experiences with different entities that personally i can't explain. some where with other people and some where private. if something claims it is a god does not make it God.

i don't exactly know what i will say to my daughter when the time comes. i would be lying if i said i wouldn't be bias. nonetheless i would want to give her the room to question and encourage her to seek the answers for herself. i don't think any of us could honestly give a answer to a child asking why without expressing some of what we believe.

i hope by my posts in this board that i show that i am not the type of person to force my belief on others.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: humm... i

sapphen wrote:
humm... i really don't think i want to get into the wiccan gods. i will have to say that i used to be wiccan and i've had experiences with different entities that personally i can't explain. some where with other people and some where private. if something claims it is a god does not make it God

See, I have to be an atheist because I have never had a single experience in my 43 years that ever made me wonder if there was 'something more' or a 'higher power' anything even close to that.

I've seen my fair share of strange things, like seeing the musical genius Dika Newlin (60 year old punk rocker, student of Arnold Schoenburg, VCU music composition professor) bleed from her cheeks after drinking too many beers and noting that the blood streaks matched the color of her back-length wig.

The epitome of strange? yes. Life-changing religious experience? no.


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For me i never had an

For me i never had an emotional attachment to anything resembling god. The closest i came was an emotional attachment to the "virtue of non-contigent faith". So when i went to discover about god existence, this lead to a logical conclusion that there was none, based on rational thought. Even if i did have an emotional attachment, i am able to remove my emotion from arguments about beliefs i have. So if there was a belief i had that i was emtionaly attached to, and i was given an argument against it i am able to think about it without emotion getting in the way of gaining the new knowledge.


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do you want a life-changing

do you want a life-changing religious experience?


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have you ever been in love

have you ever been in love zntneo?


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sapphen wrote: have you

sapphen wrote:
have you ever been in love zntneo?

 

Yes and your point is? I am in a long-term relationship right now. I am able to look at our relationship and see if this relationship is a good realtionship. I don't have to include my emotions in it. Does she communicate with me? Do i with her? I am able to use my knowledge of relationships to critque and determine if the relationship is worth sustaining and i am able to decide what we might improve, but if she starts abusing me or i her i will see that i either need to change or the relationship is unsalvageable. 


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sapphen wrote: do you want

sapphen wrote:
do you want a life-changing religious experience?

have you ever been in love zntneo?

Ewww. The "don't think just feel" argument. *shiver*

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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sapphen wrote:do you want

sapphen wrote:
do you want a life-changing religious experience?

I don't see how it's a matter of wanting. It's basically the same question as do I want to see a ghost or do I want to see the Loch Ness monster. If it's not real, I hope I don't see it because if I do then something is wrong with me.

If it's real and I don't see it...that applies to billions of things...it does not mean it's not real but that it is something I never saw.

There are differences though. If I saw the Loch Ness monster, it would not change the way I think of the world. It would only be another species to add to the list.

If I saw a ghost, I would almost certainly have to rethink certain things about how I have organized reality, but even in this case there could be a 'normal' answer somewhere that explains how there are ghosts.

But to see god, that would have to destroy my world. But I'm certainly not beyond letting it be destroyed. If it brings me closer to to reality, I'd be glad to have my world destroyed.

If there is a god, I'd love for him to come over here and destroy my world. Ball's in his court.

I try very hard to not see or fail to see things based on whether I do or do not want to see them. In the end I'd rather know a painful truth than a pleasant lie.


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sapphen wrote: do you want

sapphen wrote:
do you want a life-changing religious experience?

I had a life changing experience when I realized that I was certain there was no evidence for god.  An entire world of possibilities opened up to me as the possibilities of understanding the universe sunk in.  I felt as I do now, that I am part of the universe and everything and all humans are connected via our DNA and heritage.

See, here's the thing...I believe that religious experiences aren't god related at all, they are just our minds connecting strongly with an idea - it is a point of epiphany.  A moment of preceived clarity. 

It makes perfect sense from a logical point of view, when taking into account human chemistry and emotion, that people have "religious experiences" and it also makes sense that they feel these experiences are undeniable evidence for god.  Most people don't understand their own brains well enough to see otherwise.  This also explains entirely why I as an atheist could have a life changing realization and "experience" as much as a Hindu could about Vishnu or a Christian could about god.  The difference is, I equate that experience to my acceptance of what I view as a truth...where theists equate that experience to god.  Theists then tend to go about attributing other experiences to god and thus gain an enen greater emotional attatchment to their faith.   Had I been born in a christian family or otherwise, I may have ended up as a theist becuase when I had my great bridge of knowledge of the unvierse, it may not have been that there is no evidence of god, it may have been that god is real and that itself would from that point be my evidence...thank Thor I wasn't raised with religion!


 

"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax

Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.


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i really don't have a point,

i really don't have a point, please forgive me if i intrude.

do you love her? if she was to lose her voice or became paralyzed would you still love her? if she became moody and irrational would u still love her? is she the most beautiful woman you've ever seen... do you love her flaws, do you long for her presents? do you feel completely happy with her and want to cherish her for the rest of your life?

you approached the topic of love very logical. i promise i am not setting a trap for you. i don't have a juicy nugget of "retaliation" in the back of my mind. i'm just asking questions that are coming from my feelings. if you wish not to discuss any more on this topic i will let it go.

your previous response posed the thought about personal relationships of an individual and i'm just curious if you was to write a love letter to her, what would it sound like?

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: do you want

sapphen wrote:
do you want a life-changing religious experience?

 

WAs this also aimed at me? What do you mean religious? If you mean what Maslow would call Peak expereinces (experiences that take you belong yourself and help you connect with the comsos) yes i wouldn't mind. If you mean in the classical sense i do not think i could have this. All my expereinces i try to filter through logic.  If something happens to me and it makes me quite emotional i'll let it be emotional b ut i will not make a decission or change my belief on said emotion. Emotion is not a reason to change belief.

 

So as the above person said stop trying to argue from emotion. it will not work. I've had expereinces that where extreamly depressing and i was sucidal. I did not turn to "god" i helped my self. I got through it using me and my loved ones. So the only way i believe someone can convince me of a "god" is through logical argumentation.   


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that is interesting Vorax,

that is interesting Vorax, thank you. i understand the atheist definition of a life-changing realization a bit better now.

since this is a "heart to heart" and i going to pose a "what if" question. i am not trying to set you up for anything, i am only curious at your response. i've heard others before post on here that if their was a God, they still wouldn't worship him anyways. that is the basis of why i ask the following;

what if something happened to you that you could not explain... something that would defy all your reasoning and made you question life, God and everything else in the world. something that would totally renounce all your beliefs of rational, even science and hard fact. would you want that life changing experience?

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: i really

sapphen wrote:
i really don't have a point, please forgive me if i intrude. do you love her? if she was to lose her voice or became paralyzed would you still love her? if she became moody and irrational would u still love her? is she the most beautiful woman you've ever seen... do you love her flaws, do you long for her presents? do you feel completely happy with her and want to cherish her for the rest of your life? you approached the topic of love very logical. i promise i am not setting a trap for you. i don't have a juicy nugget of "retaliation" in the back of my mind. i'm just asking questions that are coming from my feelings. if you wish not to discuss any more on this topic i will let it go. your previous response posed the thought about personal relationships of an individual and i'm just curious if you was to write a love letter to her, what would it sound like?

Did i not say i loved her? Again I would look at whats causing the irrational behavior. I would try to understand it.   If she is paralized are we able to have an relationship? Does she belong more in a house where she can get 24/7 care from professionals?  None of these things necessarily leads to the logical conclusion that the relationship is unsavagable.  If we argue all the time and tahs all we do. We make each other cry during these arguments. This then requires ,imo, counseling. If we are unable to then to reconcile our differences and the relationship is more harmful then benifitional then maybe the conclusion might be we shouldn't be together anymore. I may still have attachment to her after all we've been together for 5 years, but I wouldn't continue doing something that is harmful to each other and doesn't provide realistic benefits. I do not believe that you should stay in a relationship no matter what. I also do not believe and do not mean to imply that i would break the realtionship up on a drop of a dime. I would try to fix the relationship, iw ould try as hard as i could, but once we decide that the relationship is unsalvageable (forgot to add I need to consult her and see what she thinks of the relationship). Then i would break it off, might i still feel love for her i might, but i would know that being apart is better for both of us.

 

Also, please do not try to tell me i do not have feelings. i do, i am one of the most emotional man i know. I've never met another man that is as emotional but i try to not let my emotion dictate what i believe and/or what i know .


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sapphen wrote: that is

sapphen wrote:
that is interesting Vorax, thank you. i understand the atheist definition of a life-changing realization a bit better now. since this is a "heart to heart" and i going to pose a "what if" question. i am not trying to set you up for anything, i am only curious at your response. i've heard others before post on here that if their was a God, they still wouldn't worship him anyways. that is the basis of why i ask the following; what if something happened to you that you could not explain... something that would defy all your reasoning and made you question life, God and everything else in the world. something that would totally renounce all your beliefs of rational, even science and hard fact. would you want that life changing experience?

 

I hope you don't mind me answering this too. If i could not explain it i would realize that that doesn't mean some incoherent "sky daddy" isn't an explanation.  I have never heard of an expereince that i would say "oh all that logic and stuff pfft thats not the way to knowledge or the best way i must have faith". Nothing that i've ever thought of as an expereince would make me believe in an non-answer aka god. There is a natural explantion for everything, we just may not know it. 


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sapphen wrote:

sapphen wrote:
that is interesting Vorax, thank you. i understand the atheist definition of a life-changing realization a bit better now. since this is a "heart to heart" and i going to pose a "what if" question. i am not trying to set you up for anything, i am only curious at your response. i've heard others before post on here that if their was a God, they still wouldn't worship him anyways. that is the basis of why i ask the following; what if something happened to you that you could not explain... something that would defy all your reasoning and made you question life, God and everything else in the world. something that would totally renounce all your beliefs of rational, even science and hard fact. would you want that life changing experience?

It would depend very much on what the experience was.

For example, I had an experience when I was younger (mid-teens) that convinced me for a time that there was a spiritual world and I had a soul. In this experience, I left my body and talked to someone who I had never met - an old man. There was bright lights and a sense of warmth all around me. For a time, I was sure this had happened - but I am an eternal skeptic and rather then continue to blindly accept it, I researched other possibilities that might explain this experience. I came to discover the effects of waking dreams and realized my event fit very well. Waking dreams also fit with many events considered supernatural or unexplainable, such as god experiences, ailen visitations, angels and demons. My skeptical eye has been wide open since then and I have learned that despite my apparent intelligence and awareness of reality, I am suseptible and can be fooled...even by myself.

As to your second question, would I worship the christian god - no I could not worship this god, regardless of any personal experiences under any circumstances without *undeniable and verifiable proof*. Why? The christian god's morals are simply primative and frankly, less then my own - I just couldn't consider that idea of this god worthy of respect because of the tryanical, maniacle methods, sensless slaughter of innocent children, misogynistic teachings, homophobic ranting and support for raping virgin girls, all outlined in the bible.

"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax

Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.


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I know this was directed at

I know this was directed at Vorax, but I'm going to answer and if you don't care, you can just ignore me.

sapphen wrote:
what if something happened to you that you could not explain... something that would defy all your reasoning and made you question life, God and everything else in the world. something that would totally renounce all your beliefs of rational, even science and hard fact. would you want that life changing experience?

If something happened that I could not explain, I would look for an explanation. I don't think there is anything that would make me go crazy and reject reason, science, or even my unbelief.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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ROFL!! i didn't mean to get

ROFL!! i didn't mean to get all sentimental on you guys! i'm not trying to argue that way and by no means did i try to say that you were not emotional.

the questions are directed towards anyone who will answer... and thank you for all the wonderful responses!

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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Vorax.. just out of

Vorax.. just out of curiosity do you remember what the conversation with the old man was about?


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sapphen wrote: ROFL!! i

sapphen wrote:
ROFL!! i didn't mean to get all sentimental on you guys! i'm not trying to argue that way and by no means did i try to say that you were not emotional. the questions are directed towards anyone who will answer... and thank you for all the wonderful responses!

 

I guess this sentiment about you going to say we are not emotional comes from the fact that , at least I have, been told i am a heartless bastard who has no emotions because i like using logic to do things instead of emotions. My own mother has told me "not everything is logical emotions play a role. Not all things have reasons".  Even though i do not deny emotions i do try to make dissions based on logic instead of  using just pure emotion and try to remove emotion from my discisions as much as possible. 


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sapphen wrote:

sapphen wrote:
Vorax.. just out of curiosity do you remember what the conversation with the old man was about?

I think it was about how wild it was to me that I was out of my body. I remember walking around thinking this is amazing and conveying that to this man, other then that I'm not sure. I also, know that for a moment I felt parazlized in my own body and had what felt like trouble breathing before I got up and walked away from my body. Turns out, these are very typical symptoms of waking dreams and have been observed in sleep studies.

I had another one since then (around the age of 22), but I was very aware of it when I did. I knew what was going on, but it was still an increidble experience. Being conscious of the illusion and what was happening, I used the opportunity to study the experience. It's was all very cool because for a few minutes you are actually in another reality, you are lucid, aware and alert, but the entire experience is in your head. It's like the ultimate reality dream because your brain is dreaming, but your consciousness is fully active. You are quite litterally half asleep. It's very hard to describe if you've never had one - I would love to experience it again because the feeling you have while it's happening is amazing and it gives you a glimpse into a world where anything is possible, and I mean anything (when it happened again, I dared myself to walk through a wall, and I did Eye-wink)

"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax

Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.


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Theists and others, if your

Theists and others, if your god experience sounds anything like what I described, you too may have had a waking dream. These are real events and though uncommon during ones lifetime, most people do have them once or twice. If your experience was similar to mine maybe that's all it was.

For more information on waking dreams, also calld "Lucid dreams", check out Wikipedia here.

In particular a "WILD" would be the one that can fool you and is rare:

A wake-initiated lucid dream (WILD),[2] which is sometimes considered more difficult to achieve, occurs when the dreamer goes from a normal waking state directly into a dream state with no lapse in consciousness.

"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax

Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.


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LOL.. vorax. i too have had

LOL.. vorax. i too have had similar experiences. the first time for me it was a voice talking to me and pushing me down "out of" my body. my legs and waist sunk down into the mattress and was listening to him talk about what was possible outside my body. he told me to visualize my radio and when i did, it was like my face slammed into it and turned it on. i freaked out, tried to move but was paralyzed. he kept telling me to relax, calm down... and as i did, i felt like a guitar string plucked really hard, vibration slowly coming to a stop. it is a very calming experience except for afterwards i had a headache and i pulled a muscle in my leg trying to get up.

who knows what these really are. i guess some things are left up to personal interpretation. though not proven, i have heard that if you work at it, you could "have these dreams" anytime you want but i prefer that they come to me naturally.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote:

sapphen wrote:
Jeremiah, that was a very witty response about the photographs, but to be honest you could not effectively convince the blind man of the stars.

Oh? Why not? There are other ways of learning besides seeing things. All you would need is some way for the blind man to make predictions which will only come true in the event that there really are stars, and let him verify these predictions for himself through some sense other than vision. Offhand I'm having trouble thinking of one, but that doesn't immediately rule out the existence of a plausible experiment, like fingers-in-front-of-the-camera thing, that could convince a blind man about the existence of stars.

Maybe you should find a blind skeptic somewhere and ask him what it took to convince of the existence of stars.

Quote:
is this a correct translation of your quote? "Gods are for kinds, which betray themselves -- into the faith flee around itself to execute. Humans need to hurt Gods around itself, in order to destroy itself -- that are we" ... lol, babelfish Smiling that is very interesting. what does that mean to you and who are you quoting?

It's a song by the German band OOMPH!. The lyrics and a translation can be found here. I like the song and wanted atheist-sounding lyrics in my signature. (Edit: Found a live video on Youtube. Rockin'.)

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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Why weren't you this real about your view of the church

Hey pariahjane. I wanted to find you on another blog to prove to you that I am not just a one hit wonder but really want to understand atheism.  That is why I came here.  Your response to this thread was what I wondered about athests.  My idea was that people hate the church and thus explain away God.  You shared some pretty tough thoughts about the church creating bigotry, sexism and hatred.  I probably wouldn't want to serve a God that I believe starts all that crap either.  I know a lot of Christians who serve the world's needs and a lot that are self-centered and could care less about the needy.  I don't base my faith on experiences of people but my personal relationship with Jesus.  I talk to Him and he talks to me.  I might sound like a head case, but that is what I sometimes believe about people that could not believe in a God that I find so logical.  The one thing that is tough for me to understand is why atheists are so confident in their minds and logic.  I know some people that have crazy logic that has lead them to all sorts of ridiculous ends.  I need something outside this crazy world because it just doesn't make sense times.


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sapphen wrote:

sapphen wrote:
that is interesting Vorax, thank you. i understand the atheist definition of a life-changing realization a bit better now. since this is a "heart to heart" and i going to pose a "what if" question. i am not trying to set you up for anything, i am only curious at your response. i've heard others before post on here that if their was a God, they still wouldn't worship him anyways. that is the basis of why i ask the following; what if something happened to you that you could not explain... something that would defy all your reasoning and made you question life, God and everything else in the world. something that would totally renounce all your beliefs of rational, even science and hard fact. would you want that life changing experience?

I assume you're referring to me when you take that claim out of context.

As I said before, to which I'll reiterate, if the christian god was found to exist, I still wouldn't see cause to worship him. I believe with every fiber of my being that the notion of original sin is morally, logically and intellectually bankrupt. I refuse to pander to any philosophy that promotes the notion that killing an innocent party is a suitable repayment for someone else's transgression. PERIOD.

To the jews during WWII, Hitler was in-effect "god". He held their life in his hands. Was he worthy of worship? This is in my opinion, analagous to christianity. I will not be forced to pretend to praise a being that threatens me with eternal suffering if I do not. That's WACK! That's barbaric and inhumane. Just because someone is infitnitely more powerful than I, does not mean they get unconditional respect and praise.

This is a classic example how christians are total hypocrites. They would never endorse such a notion, but they'll turn their back and their principals and their morals when it comes to respecting the sadistic barbarian of the bible. Well, I am not a hypocrite on this issue. I see the christian history for what it is. I would not hold myself up to a higher standard than I would have for my god. That's just ludicrous. I am BETTER than the christian god. I haven't committed genocide. I haven't demanded people provide me burnt offerings or foreskins or virgins or first-born children. I haven't wiped entire civilizations off the planet because I was in a bad mood. Fuck god. He is an asshole (if he actually existed). I am better and more moral than that tyrannical figment.

And the rest of your argument is just padding for another GODDIDIT conclusion. The unknown is nothing to be afraid of. It's something to be understood and explained. If you disagree, the next time there's something physically wrong with you, I expect you to pray, because GODDIDIT right? Don't waste time going to a secular doctor or hospital. Let jeebus take care of you, ok? Thanks!

 By the way, just because a hallucination might end up being a "life-changing experience" does not mean it's real or legitimate.  Stop with the post-hypnotic-esque suggestions.


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thanks for the honesty

thanks for the honesty pile. it seems that you could have used a good release and although slightly bruised i am glad that i could be the object of your aggression.

now look deeply into my eyes.... it's okay, i still love you. 

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote:

sapphen wrote:

thanks for the honesty pile. it seems that you could have used a good release and although slightly bruised i am glad that i could be the object of your aggression.

now look deeply into my eyes.... it's okay, i still love you.

I suspect one problem with you theists, and to a general extent, most of society, is that people are way too non-confrontational. I'm sorry if my honesty, which isn't always diplomacy-laced is translated to hostility or aggression. It's not meant that way. It simply underlines the passion I have about my opinion. But it does frustrate me that theists can talk of eternal suffering and torment and then love in the same sentence. Talk about passive-aggressive! I'm an amateur compared to the aggressive messages the christian doctrine promotes.

Why is it that honestly is such a hurtful ideal? I mean, nobody wants to hear what they don't want to hear, but I'd take some hurt feelings and know the truth over lies and fallacy any day. Lies always come back to haunt you later.

But seriously, why don't you address what I'm talking about instead of thank me like you're a valet parking my car?

If you believe jesus' sacrifice cleansed you of your sins, then why have you abandoned this practice? Are you in favor of sacrifice as a means of atonement? If it's good enough for god, why isn't it good enough for you? What kind of person would kill his son to repay a debt? What kind of omnipotent being would set up humanity like dominoes, only to watch them fall and then make them dance or else they suffer? What kind of "god" such as this is worthy of praise? How can you possibly reconcile that with any acceptable notion of morality?  And if you believe that's ok because he's the creator, meaning he's all-powerful, then do you feel the same way about other entities that would be perceived as god-like to lower life forms? 

 If I can toy with a nest of bugs in my front yard, am I their god, and if I decided to burn half of them and leave the other half to wander my yard for the next 40 days, at which point I decide to let them off the hook if they start giving me burnt offerings, am I worthy?  Am I a great "god?"

 


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honestly debate wasn't the

honestly debate wasn't the "point" of this post. i wanted people to express their feelings in an open atmosphere.

i am still a little unsure of what you want to talk about. if you could please, get your thoughts together and we will continue this interesting conversation in a separate post. i am a particular person and i do not want to cheapen your thoughts by posting them on the 3rd page of a thread that has nothing to do with the topic.

i will keep my eyes open for your new post and i am sorry if i patronized you... but as non confrontational that i may seem, i have never had a problem defending my faith.

 

EDIT:  it's grammar... my index finger is being lazy again. 

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: nonetheless

sapphen wrote:
nonetheless some theist have good reasons to believe what they do and to that person it is more than enough.

This I do not doubt.  However, I do think that ultimately it comes down to believing because you want to.  There is no proof either way and logic/rational thinkin points away from belief in the supernatural so if you choose to believe in a god, IMO it is because you simply want to.

sapphen wrote:
all we can do is show you the paths that we took to come to our conclusion but everyone has their separate walks to make.

Sorry, this may sound cold but it is exactly this kind of Oprah/Dr. Phil talk that drives me nutty.  Oh, I am just as guilty of it, but it still makes me crazy.  This just seems like a very nice way of saying nothing at all.  It is very encouraging and you have certainly picked a topic that most people enjoy - themselves.

Are you planning to write a book about all of this?  I ask because you mentioned your writing time has been limited and that you are artistic.

 

 


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i can understand what you

i can understand what you are saying.  i don't think this will help, but i feel i have personal proof that God exists.  i only wish that i could share it with you. i accept the fact that it is irrational for me to say that is a reason for you to believe yet i just can't agree with the summary it is because "simply" i want to.

i pose that it may be irrational for me to ask you to believe but i would have to conclude it is rational for me to believe... if that makes sense.  it would be unfair for me to say that you don't believe in God simply because "you want to".  that could be misjudging your rationality and ability to question.

i just got though watching an episode of "Ghost Hunters" on scifi. i feel they truly try to approach the topic rationally and debunk claims of ghosts.  even they run into things they can't rationally explain.  if someone has an experience like that, they could still be a rational person, yet have an event in their lives they can not explain. again, it would be unfair to resolve that they believe simply because they want to.

i don't want you to think that i believe only in feelings.  i also don't think that one should believe only in "rational" terms.  as you said the evidence "points away from" but is not able to refute the proof of the supernatural.  we have to sides to our brain logic and feelings.  i think it would be unwise to brush off our feelings so quickly without first seeking answers.  i believe that logic and feelings both are subject to human error but we all have, and have a right, to our perspective... that includes not forcing it on others, which i truly hope i have not done.

i am trying to say that we should be able to talk about our ideas.  we all know that i can't prove God likewise you can not disprove God.  sometimes i feel i am fighting for my right to believe in God but it's only fair considering that you are fighting for your right not to believe in Him.  our views aside, we can have a honest productive conversation on the matter.  i do value your input and hope i did not "dr. phil" any of this.

as with my quote, if needed to be explained into terms of logical i would say;

 all i can do is tell you why i believe what i do but everyone has their own personal questions to find answers.

i think one problem both sides have is the lack of questions we ask... we both tend to have a lot of answers. no matter if it is wrong or right, each answer could lead to more questions. we stop growing when we stop seeking answers for questions.

 i don't want to offend but perhaps maybe some people just are happy where they are and stopped asking questions.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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after some reflection i

after some reflection i would have to say that if an experience happens to someone they would have two noticeable explanations (maybe more if you care to add);

* it's supernatural and a mystery to man

* it's explained rationally somehow.. i just do not know

i would have to say that the second thought does provoke more opportunity to try and discover the truth. i try not to take the approach of the first one. i believe there is a God. it is explained rational somehow but at this moment i do not have an answer to show you.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote:

sapphen wrote:

after some reflection i would have to say that if an experience happens to someone they would have two noticeable explanations (maybe more if you care to add);

* it's supernatural and a mystery to man

* it's explained rationally somehow.. i just do not know

i would have to say that the second thought does provoke more opportunity to try and discover the truth. i try not to take the approach of the first one. i believe there is a God. it is explained rational somehow but at this moment i do not have an answer to show you.

Have you ever considered that it may be your unconscious (in one way or another), which most definitely is a mystery to man but which can probably be explained rationally someday?


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absolutely ABx. i've

absolutely ABx. i've attempted to explore the topic myself with mixed results... and do you mean subconscious?

 

****EDIT IN****

lol, techinally they mean the same thing. i took it out of context trying to reply too quick

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sapphen wrote:

sapphen wrote:

absolutely ABx. i've attempted to explore the topic myself with mixed results... and do you mean subconscious?

 

****EDIT IN****

lol, techinally they mean the same thing. i took it out of context trying to reply too quick

Nope, actually they are a bit different.. unconscious was from Jung, subsconscious from Freud Smiling The subconscious is a bit more heirarchial, structured and separate, where the unconscious is more part and parcel to the conscious. When you calculate arithmatic, you do so unconsciously. Body functions comprise much of the unconscious, and is indeed even involved in thinking (primarily viscera). You're right that they refer to the same thing, just different descriptions, of which I find "unconscious" to be more accurate and helpful.

When you engage in such things, it can be easy to see such things as a separate entity - after all, the thoughts seem to come out of nowhere. To enter any kind of "communication" with it, you must give up conscious notions of "control" - thereby "humbling yourself". Sound familiar? After all, you can't control the more complex parts of the physical brain with conscious thoughts alone. Learn to work with it, however, and the mysticism evaporates. For me it also evaporates many existential anxieties. That's obviously a simplified description, but I have no real desire to go into great detail. The point, however, is that the same kind of personal expeiences ultimately led me to the opposite conclusion, albeit after quite some time and (non?) effort. Some Zen Buddhist concepts helped here, but they have a different perspective (and very different goals) than I do.


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very interesting ABx.  it

very interesting ABx.  it would take me some time to ponder what you have said.  thank you for sharing.

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sapphen wrote: very

sapphen wrote:
very interesting ABx. it would take me some time to ponder what you have said. thank you for sharing.
A question to ponder then: if a person disengages their conscious from unfavorable natural instincts in favor of a small subset of positive emotions, then considers unconscious impulses as the divine word of god, what do you think would be the result of instinctual and primitive responses to perceived threats/challenges from an "out-group"?


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defensive behavior.

defensive behavior.


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brand0n wrote: Hey

brand0n wrote:
Hey pariahjane. I wanted to find you on another blog to prove to you that I am not just a one hit wonder but really want to understand atheism.  That is why I came here.  Your response to this thread was what I wondered about athests.  My idea was that people hate the church and thus explain away God.  You shared some pretty tough thoughts about the church creating bigotry, sexism and hatred.  I probably wouldn't want to serve a God that I believe starts all that crap either.  I know a lot of Christians who serve the world's needs and a lot that are self-centered and could care less about the needy.  I don't base my faith on experiences of people but my personal relationship with Jesus.  I talk to Him and he talks to me.  I might sound like a head case, but that is what I sometimes believe about people that could not believe in a God that I find so logical.  The one thing that is tough for me to understand is why atheists are so confident in their minds and logic.  I know some people that have crazy logic that has lead them to all sorts of ridiculous ends.  I need something outside this crazy world because it just doesn't make sense times.

Jumping in...

There is no reason to think there's a god, end of story. No emotional problems need to exist or have existed to be an atheist. Therefore "your idea" which I've heard many times before is just plain wrong.

I have had no experiences of faith, no experiences of Jesus, no experiences of a god or a higher power etc. It only makes sense for me to be an atheist.

Those people with 'crazy logic' were not actually employing logic because logic is not crazy. Logic is NOT just one person thinking he makes sense. This is where your mistake is.

Wanting something "outside this world" when it doesn't make sense doesn't make it so.

I see the central theme of your "idea" now. Since you believe things based on what you want or don't want, atheists must think the same way. No. Most of us are atheists precisely because we try to not let what we want and don't be a factor in what we believe.

You will of course disagree, but your own post shows you are conflicted on the matter. On the one hand you say you have experiences supporting your belief. On the other you say you want to believe in something that makes sense when the world you live in doesn't make sense.

You can't have it both ways. Interestingly enough, logic is the very thing that could get you out of this dilemma...but you attack it. Like quitting a good course of treatment for a disease, you have trashed the cure.


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is logic always correct?

is logic always correct?


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sapphen wrote: is logic

sapphen wrote:
is logic always correct?

It is until someone shows better logic. 


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sapphen wrote: is logic

sapphen wrote:
is logic always correct?

Logic tells us whether what we say is consistent or incoherent. Thus logic can't be wrong, because to proof that logic itself is wrong you'd have to resort to logic, which is begging the question. Logic is defended through retortion. Eye-wink

sapphen wrote:
i honestly believe that there is something else out there that is beyond logic and the physical world.

I personally have no interest in something unknowable (beyond the physical world) and something incomprehensible (beyond logic). To postulate such existences (if you can call something without a physical body even an existence) is superfluous imo.

Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life. - Immanuel Kant


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sapphen wrote: is logic

sapphen wrote:
is logic always correct?

Logic is a tool.  An argument can be sound based upon the premises' truth and the validity of the conclusion from the premises.

 The validity of a conclusion is dependent on whether the conclusion follows from what is said in the premises as being the necessary result of their implications.  the number of logical fallacies that people refer to talk about problems with validity or the strength of our certainty about the premises' truth.

 Logic is neither correct or incorrect. Logic is a tool that is used well or not, and even a well-used tool can make objects that are not sufficient for the task they were intended for.  Using the best tools available to make a house out of cardboard won't make you a sturdy house.  

It is the methodology of how we obtain the information that we use as premises in our logical arguments, then the validity of the structure of said arguments, that make the argument.

 But, to get to the thread's topic....

I think religion was a good attempt to answer some questions thousands of years ago.  When our methodologies were insufficent to conceive of or use the methods we have now (and are still improving!), we used our imagination and inferences from what we did understand.  It is an outgrowth of psychological needs, tendencies of thought, and social factors that developed into an activity that has entrenched itself in us psychologically, ethically, socially, politically, etc.

Some people have realized this and have been able to step outside of the need for these behaviors that are so engrained into human cultures and psychology.  Granted, religion has also evolved such that the poor use of methodology and logic has also escaped these behaviors, but the porr methodology and logic still remains.

I think, as my signature says, that religion has asked many good questions, but the answers are lacking when compared to the asnwers of the scientific method, rational thought, and ultimately a naturalistic worldview.   I don't dislike religion or the religious per se.  Rather, I dislike what the religious do when buried in religious activity.

 

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


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Mattness wrote: Logic

Mattness wrote:

Logic tells us whether what we say is consistent or incoherent. Thus logic can't be wrong, because to proof that logic itself is wrong you'd have to resort to logic, which is begging the question. Logic is defended through retortion. Eye-wink

Oops, I meant to say the "principles of logic", of course one can apply logic in a wrong way (fallacies), but the principles of logic are necessarily right (such as the law of the excluded middle). Everything we can put into words is subject to logic, it's impossible to "refute" the basis of logic without resorting to logic. 

Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life. - Immanuel Kant


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sapphen wrote: want to try

sapphen wrote:

want to try something new in this post.  take it down a notch from all the curriculum and evidence from each side.... sit down and tell us why you personally agree or disagree with religion without the use of works sited.

it's not that you can't use facts to support your points but i want the meat of why.  i want to give everyone the freedom to put down our guards and tell a story of what impacted you the most or a thought of why we believe what we do.  what was the breaking point or what was your personal proof?

too often we got lost in what ways to debate another person and we don't slow down and have a conversation.   you can get crazy if you want in here cause the box is boundless, step out here and lets embrace the sincerity of our minds.

I can't really respond to this the way you might want me too, because I never believed in religion in my entire life. All the things I have against religion came with knowledge of what religions are doing and have done throughout history. All of which came much later than my disregard for a belief in a deity, which I would attribute to my mind being incapable of warping itself around the idea.
The more I learn about religion, the more I am against it. It's morals are generally said to be absolute, when many of those same morals are against my own morality. As well as the morality of competing religions.
It seeks an end to diversity of thought, by forcing all to believe in it or suffer it. Worse, it seeks an end to thought, by suggesting it is the only possibility.
It by necessity wars against science and progress when science and progress says it's wrong, or it will fall into obscurity.
It fosters an "us against them" attitude whenever competing viewpoints come into play.

Against all of this and more: there is not a single thing that religion has ever done that was good for all and was done soley in the name of religion, not the desires of those taking part in the action or for the betterment of those taking it. No church has ever taken it's riches and gone into a poor country and made it better. The most they're ever willing to do is make words and throw a few dollars, making sure that anyone recieving those dollars watches a video on their religion.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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sapphen wrote: Wyzaard, i

sapphen wrote:
Wyzaard, i did not want to take away your rational reasonings. yes i wanted to personalize our positions. it is by personal experience that we developed our beliefs and rational information. i did not mean to say that you where not insincere but challenged each other to be sincere. i was stating that there has been plenty of rational talk on the subject and wanted to share with each other our conclusions. thank you for adding in your thoughts.

 

You're welcome... so... what perchance are your motives in this inquery?


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sapphen wrote: what if

sapphen wrote:
what if something happened to you that you could not explain... something that would defy all your reasoning and made you question life, God and everything else in the world. something that would totally renounce all your beliefs of rational, even science and hard fact. would you want that life changing experience?

Dunno... would I be having a stroke at the time?  Then probably not.

If it were something non-dangerous... then the answer is "Perhaps... but what does that matter?"  I'd still not have any grounds to believe it was absolute truth; it might feel wonderful, scary, etc... but it's still simply my limited perspective.

 


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sapphen wrote: i think one

sapphen wrote:

i think one problem both sides have is the lack of questions we ask... we both tend to have a lot of answers. no matter if it is wrong or right, each answer could lead to more questions. we stop growing when we stop seeking answers for questions.

i don't want to offend but perhaps maybe some people just are happy where they are and stopped asking questions.

 If they aren't meaningful questions, then why should we seek answers for them?