If your referring to my comments, I was simply implying that Jews claim Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies about the comming mesiah. It is irrelevant as to which verses are actually prophetic towards the messiah and which versers aren't. The only thing that matters is what the Jewish people believed at that time, even if it was wrong.

No Simpo, not talking to you.  But right, so many in Israel believed, as the first followers, but the nation as a whole didn't.  I guess especially the ol' religious hierarchy, when Jesus Christ ( or, the real Hebrew, Y'shua Hamassiach ) comes to get past the beauracracy on the outside, and to get down to the heart - - heh, to OUR hearts, to get past the defenses and touch with healing.  With freedom and so on.  To get us out of our sort of stifling boxes.  Or more aptly, the brick walls we build up.  Yes, this lamb that walked this earth to reach us wants our hearts.  And to give real freedom that is not a stuffy religion!  The first followers though, and the followers through the synagogues of that powerful roman empire, carried the torch on down to, well, the eyes that are reading these words tonight, didn't they!     Great peace come to you.

Well of course I was talking to the vishnu guy above, and to "theotherguy" as well.  But looks like we scared them away.  I guess the thing to remember is that the arms of God are wide open in this phase of history, since the coming of Christ.  And that all the powerful prophesies pointed to Christ.  But the offer to come on in to the ark could only go on until the ark's doors had to be closed, only for a season of time.  Within the ark is all the presence of God.  It is SO GOOD to be in a solid, secure, ark of safety, buoyed by the weight of evidence in all those century spanning writings.  Well, I better get to bed.  May prevading peace come into your heart.

Nope. Still here. Same questions. You guys are asserting that allah/yahweh is the same god, but you're failing premise is that it might not be that god. Same old bet.

Same question. You know this How??? 

Soooo, god fits into an ark?

Again. You know this how?? 

Century spanning writings that get changed and reinterpreted and added to whenever the need arises. Yep. I'll bet that is just the most comfortable feeling. NOT!!!

If it is so true then why are there apologists at all? Why do you feel the need to defend it?

HUH? So now you want my heart to stop??? That would be peace to it right?

What is 'prevading'??

Anyway, okay here's to hoping the rest of your existence is spent reading the rest of the site like your buddy simple theist needs to do.

Yes it is. That is pascals wager to the letter.

"Investigating God" includes looking for evidence. But I have no more reason to actively seek evidence of god than I have of seeking evidence for any possible god. There are thousands of human-made gods and an infinte number of conceivable gods. None have any evidence, and until one presents real evidence there is no reason to take any of their doctrine as anything other than meaningless babble.

No, my point is, Mohammed was a prophet and people followed him. What you are saying is that since people followed Jesus, he must have been telling the truth. I am pointing out that this is a logical fallacy. If that logic made any sense then every faith healer, demagouge and cultist who has a following is correct. Like I said, Jews followed Jesus because he made grandiose promises, claimed to be the son of god, and they were extremely gullible. The same goes for Mohammed, Buddha, Confucious and every other demagouge and cult leader. People follow them for their own reasons, mainly because they desire connection and meaning and are gullible.

 

now, where's your proof?

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Let's look at it logically, even though you don't think it has anything to with logic.   In your son's short life he has learned to depend on YOU.  Food comes from YOU.  When he's uncomfortable, YOU come to help.  He sees YOU more than anyone else, hence trust develops, and he trusts YOU.

This same interaction can be view in many other mammals between infant and parents as well.  There is nothing mystical about it.

Even if one lacks the mental capacity to understand it, chooses not to understand it, or simply is ignorant to it, thefact remains that the interaction you are speaking of can be studied and understood with logic, science, and rational thought.

 

I'm not talking about people or prophets. I'm talking about Jews and the Messiah. The question again is Why would Jews follow a messiah that never lived, when they have never followed a messiah which has actually lived?

 

 

Not what I"m saying at all. All I said was since that Jews following Jesus is proof there was a real Jesus. This offers no proof he told the truth. This simply gives evidence that there must have been a historic Jesus.

 

AND THEY WERE REAL. My point is Jesus was real, not that he told the truth or was God. There is no evidence of a large number of people following a made up myth guy to death.

 

Almost seems pointless since you guys are already twisting what I'm saying right now. In this conversation, I have yet to say Jesus was God, Jesus always told the truth, or Jesus was not a cult leader. I have only implied that he was a real historical person.

 

Yes Andy, I think that's a big thing for the rrs site!  In many respects, the modern western world  has turned backwards.  All the tribes have always known there is "an entity."  That certain knowing, which, in a hypermodern world, we are suppressing,  just might be as much a part of us, as much a part of being human as is every other single portion of our make up -- but its drowned out in the glare of this somewhat out of control west which has developed, and which now insisits on dethroning that "entity," as this theme is touched on in the verse in Revelations speaking of the western empire that was to come, 'you led the world astray with all your charms.'

Nontheists of course think our minds conceived theism -- modelling it all after our own concepts.

But what if, just what if, it actually IS the other way around.  This thing of growing, and the interesting balance of what was innate vs. what was left for sharing & passing on to the young, which also afforded these unique human worlds of creativity & art & invention & knowledge, and the feeling of the parent looking down at the young with joy & with care, likewise the feeling of the small young one looking so high up to the parent.  If there is a Creator, just think of the statement, of the reflection on the Creator in this wondrous thing that is incorporated in some of the most important human experiences.

 But the main point is, our all powerful western world  now wants "science" as its God.  And on these boards so many grind out the words logic, proof, science -- demanding God snap down into the limited & finite rules we have.  You actually could compare it with this:  yes, with a rebellious kid with his/her parents, heh heh, with that brazen need of self expression, that boastful insistence that his/her great learning is all there is!

And here at the rrs site, so many snap that the whole question must be approached on their own terms.  But if the God of all Creation exists, we can assume that this God's is immensely high above.

 But anyway, Andy, really what happened above was, the  miracle & wonder  of a child and the delight & pride of a parent, got stripped down,  for the sake of this debating,  to icicles of logic!  The fact is that you & I PURPOSELY dispense with that sort of logic readout process, wouldn't you agree?  When we are experiencing the joys of a child!  If we demanded that our experiences of wonder, joy, pride and love be reduced to science formulas it just might end up, well, a meaningless, or maybe you could even say a dead & cold place! 

 And imagine, my friend, if there is a God, who, if God existed, would be the very author of  all love & art, of poetry & passion, of wonders beyond our imagination, and of love, to say to that One to, so to speak, slap down to any ice cold exam table!  So we can stick probes in!  So we can get our data readouts for our question!  Andy, I can tell you truly, that approach often will not work.  "my ways are not your ways"

 

 

 

G'mornin', Otherguy! A Grrrrrrrrreat Good Marnin to ya,
and a beauty of a marnin it tis,  this marnin, my friend!
Here's the note I wrote for your very first comment on here long ago!  But by then you'd gone on, hee hee, your tirade!  But here it is . . . . . . . . . .

Otherguy, I really wanted to write to you.  Way to go, friend.  A beautiful step you have acheived in your heart, by your saying the best logical conclusion was that he was indeed an historical figure.  

WHO ACTUALLY BECAME a hingepost in history, and, for example, brought in a world free of endless human & animal sacrifices, a world where our consciences could get all clear, with the groundwork laid for an era of massive advancements to come. 

Well Otherguy, about a Jesus of history, I expanded on your words a bit!!!!!!!! 

But just think, though Otherguy, of what it would mean to you if these thoughts of Jesus being false or exaggerated were not at all the case.

What if the POWERFULl fulfillment of scores of intricate prophesies, massive prophesies for which no one could really figure ways for them to all come together....  what if they all culminated during one starry night, with hope, after setting down (as its written in isaiah & elsewhere) this one "stumbling block" for the world and for all generations to come, afterwards with the hope of seeking, 'Otherguy,'  to reach even all the way.... into your own heart, as well as the hearts of many others here. And hey, its not a club, no no, this One doesn't want to hit you over the head with a club, not out to GIT you.  Whatever else you've heard, no, its a journey, its love for ya. It is a matter of our hearts, and not for bad, but for something beyond, and for healing. "With the heart.." a verse says.  Its for all good for ya this morning.

How To Use The Quote Function

 

 

Appreciate about the quote function.  But I didn't want to do the extra work.  But thanks much for the help.

And thanks Susan.  Actually, the grey & white was kind of poor on my screen, so I made it bigger and colored.  And also, I wanted variety too. ; - )   

But here it is in gray & white.

 

 Please learn how to use the quote feature!

but you see, all of your emotions, everything you think of as your "humanity", ultimatley comes from natural processes. If you look at it from terms of emotions and "humanity", you are looking at too high a level. You are, in effect, missing the point. So yes, you do have to lose your "humanity" to objectively look at the universe. That is the only way to subtract from your mind the clutter and get to the details, the facts. 

 

 

 

There was a time, the middle ages, when the Middle East and the Far East were far, far ahead culturally and scientifically to their backwards, Christian neighbors of the west. You have to realize that it is not at all Christian values that make the west so much more advanced, it is the secular values of science and reasoning. When the Middle East succumbed to radical fundamentalism, it lost its place in the world as a global leader, and was replaced by the quickly secularizing West during the Rennaisance and later the Enlightenment.

We can clearly see a pattern here. Wherever religious fundamentalism takes hold, progress culturally and scientifically stalls, and wherever Englightenment ideals take hold, you see an explosion of new knowledge, new culture, new advancements that were stifled by the dogma of the past. Those countries which you declare "burn alive their own people" do so 100 percent because of religious fanaticism and racial prejudice. The Christian religion would serve just as well if it were so fanatically practiced.

Those instututions were founded on the Christian religion simply because their adherents wanted them to read the bible. They focused on the nonsense of theology mixed with latin and greek. It was only after those schools were later secularized and taught science that great things started coming out of them. You simply don't see scientific advancements coming out of schools that teach theology and greek. So, while the Christian religion may have founded institutions like universities and libraries, they most certainly were not responsible for the success of those institutions. 

 

Great. Well its cool to think about invisible sea monsters having tea parties under my bed but it doesn't make it any more true; 

 

Again, if this god charachter is unbound by things physical he might as well not exist. Any interaction God would have with the universe would yield physical results. Those results would be visible and testable.If God is nontestable, as you say he is, then he cannot interact in any way, not even to observe, the universe we live in. If he can't do anything to the universe, then he is not God.

Well, that was the 1500's for you. I'm not saying Galileo is opposed to the idea of God, I'm saying he freed our minds from the cluttering nonsense of philosophy so we could get at the real facts.