Proof that the pope has never opened a Bible.

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Andyy
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Nice video there. However,

Nice video there.

However, the statement at the end "If Christians would only read the Bible, they would see that God is imaginary" or something to that effect.  The scary thing it, many Christians, or at least evangelicals, HAVE read the bible and they know these stories...  they have just concluded that "God's ways are different than ours" and "Our morality doesn't apply to God."

 


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Andyy wrote: Nice video

Andyy wrote:

Nice video there.

However, the statement at the end "If Christians would only read the Bible, they would see that God is imaginary" or something to that effect. The scary thing it, many Christians, or at least evangelicals, HAVE read the bible and they know these stories... they have just concluded that "God's ways are different than ours" and "Our morality doesn't apply to God."

 

 

Or "because of sin" excuse. 


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Yeah, the other thing I

Yeah, the other thing I just remembered...  My 4 year old nephew has a Noah's Ark book.  All the animals, Noah, and his family are brightly colored and smiling.  Then at the end when the water goes down, the book talks about how loving God is for bringing the water down.

Next time I see my him, I'll tell him about the flood slaughtering millions...  I'll show him huricane Katrina and tsunami videos and tell him the flood caused much more suffereing. That'll piss my sister off a bit though... 


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Andyy wrote:

Andyy wrote:

Yeah, the other thing I just remembered... My 4 year old nephew has a Noah's Ark book. All the animals, Noah, and his family are brightly colored and smiling. Then at the end when the water goes down, the book talks about how loving God is for bringing the water down.NextNext

Next time I see my him, I'll tell him about the flood slaughtering millions... I'll shuricanecanecane Katrina and tsunami videos and tell him the flood caused mmsuffereingeiThat'llt'llt'll piss my sister off a bit though...

\

 

If I were you give her some parenting advice from the words of the living god (Deuteronomy 21) .

 

Oh yeah about pissing her off show her John 8:2 which can be used for atheism.


Jacob Cordingley
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I'm guessing the Pope read

I'm guessing the Pope read the bible but chose to ignore some parts and not others, so the part that says condoms are evil (err... where?) he accepts, but the parts that condone genocide and rape he has never once heard.

I personally cannot see why a bronze age myth is still so powerful in what is the early space age.


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"Our morality doesn't apply

"Our morality doesn't apply to God."

 If our morality is different from God's how can we coexist?

Conflicting morals can easilly lead to conflict.

Should we go to war with god? 

"Everyone knows that God drives a Plymouth: "And He drove Adam And Eve from the Garden of Eden in His Fury."
And that Moses liked British cars: "The roar of Moses' Triumph was heard throughout the hills."
On the other hand, Jesus humbly drove a Honda but didn't brag about it, because in his own words: "I did not speak of my own Accord." "


AL500
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 If God does not exist,

 If God does not exist, than who's moral standard are we going to judge God by? How do we know what He did in the Bible was wrong? The atheist assertion assumes there to be such a thing as absolute good and evil. Morality and ethics are cultural creations and relative in an atheist universe. What's right and wrong to you, might not be right or wrong to a bush man in Africa. The atheist has lost all foundation for moral complaint against God if He does not exist. But the atheist is not consistent in his own worldview in that he assumes there to be absolute moral standards. If God does exist (which He does), then he is right no matter what He does because He is by definition the basis and foundation for moral absolutes. In contrast, the atheist is like an amoeba or worm trying to super-impose his own finite understanding of knowledge and morality onto a superior bring. Atheists are arguing from the vantage point of insufficient knowledge and wisdom. God IS absolute knowledge and wisdom. He does not make mistakes. He is perfectly just in everything He does.

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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AL500 wrote: If God does

AL500 wrote:
If God does not exist, than who's moral standard are we going to judge God by? How do we know what He did in the Bible was wrong? The atheist assertion assumes there to be such a thing as absolute good and evil. Morality and ethics are cultural creations and relative in an atheist universe. What's right and wrong to you, might not be right or wrong to a bush man in Africa. The atheist has lost all foundation for moral complaint against God if He does not exist. But the atheist is not consistent in his own worldview in that he assumes there to be absolute moral standards. If God does exist (which He does), then he is right no matter what He does because He is by definition the basis and foundation for moral absolutes. In contrast, the atheist is like an amoeba or worm trying to super-impose his own finite understanding of knowledge and morality onto a superior bring. Atheists are arguing from the vantage point of insufficient knowledge and wisdom. God IS absolute knowledge and wisdom. He does not make mistakes. He is perfectly just in everything He does.

Well, I don't really hold God to a moral standard because I don't believe a god even exists.  But it is fun to point out that Jesus (he's part of the trinity, right?) killed millions and use biblical 'morality' against 'god.'


AL500
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 Where, when and how did

 Where, when and how did Jesus ever kill millions?


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AL500 wrote: Where, when

AL500 wrote:
Where, when and how did Jesus ever kill millions?

 

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html

God killed alot...  If you believe Jesus and God are the same, then you can say Jesus did it Laughing


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 Well, God does punish and

 Well, God does punish and kill sinners. He is just. He cannot permit sin and evil to continue. He has warned mankind through His holy prophets since the world began. The greatest tribulation ever seen in the world is yet to come.  It's not really God who kills them. They kill themselves by rejecting Him. Free will can be a blessing and a curse. God does not violate our free will.

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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Lets break this upp shal

Lets break this up shall we.

AL500 wrote:
If God does not exist, than who's moral standard are we going to judge God by?

God doesn't exist so as luck wil have it we dont have to judge his morals Smiling

AL500 wrote:
How do we know what He did in the Bible was wrong?

Because it doesn't match our moral standards for what is right. and I'm judging based on what's in the book not God. he doesn't exist.

AL500 wrote:
The atheist assertion assumes there to be such a thing as absolute good and evil.

No. I don't, and I'm sure most of us don't.

AL500 wrote:
Morality and ethics are cultural creations and relative in an atheist universe.

Doesn't this contradict the previous sentence???

In any case, your right about this one. or atleast as right you can be with such an oversimplification.

AL500 wrote:
What's right and wrong to you, might not be right or wrong to a bush man in Africa.

Yes, but since we are the same type of being I'm pretty sure we can find common ground.

AL500 wrote:
The atheist has lost all foundation for moral complaint against God if He does not exist.

One cant complain about something that doesn't exist, so yes.

AL500 wrote:
But the atheist is not consistent in his own worldview in that he assumes there to be absolute moral standards.

If I claimed that I would be inconsistent, but I don't.

AL500 wrote:
If God does exist (which He does)

Prove it.

AL500 wrote:
, then he is right no matter what He does because He is by definition the basis and foundation for moral absolutes.

By what authority does he do that, I most certainly didn't vote for him. Its all very undemocratic, I cant stand and watch such atrocity. It conflicts with my moral values.

AL500 wrote:
In contrast, the atheist is like an amoeba or worm trying to super-impose his own finite understanding of knowledge and morality onto a superior bring.

Superior being? Hardly.

AL500 wrote:
Atheists are arguing from the vantage point of insufficient knowledge and wisdom. God IS absolute knowledge and wisdom. He does not make mistakes. He is perfectly just in everything He does.

Bloody cheeky of him if you ask me.

 Edit: tried to fix some of my pesky spelling errors.

"Everyone knows that God drives a Plymouth: "And He drove Adam And Eve from the Garden of Eden in His Fury."
And that Moses liked British cars: "The roar of Moses' Triumph was heard throughout the hills."
On the other hand, Jesus humbly drove a Honda but didn't brag about it, because in his own words: "I did not speak of my own Accord." "


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AL500 wrote: If God does

AL500 wrote:
If God does not exist, than who's moral standard are we going to judge God by?

By the standards for men attributed to "god." Or by or inherent, or socially or culturally dictated standards. The ones that most people recognize as applicable today are pretty basic and consistent.
[redundancy snipped]
AL500 wrote:
The atheist assertion assumes there to be such a thing as absolute good and evil.

Which is begging the question locked in embrace with a slippery slope fallacy. The hard correlation between atheism and immorality is a chimera.
AL500 wrote:
Morality and ethics are cultural creations and relative in an atheist universe. What's right and wrong to you, might not be right or wrong to a bush man in Africa.

True with or without religion. Every culture makes their own excuses why their way is the right way.  Oh, right, there's that nasty Christian dream of converting everyone so they can be happy when the world blows up. Without moral absolutes, we're free to figure out what is humane and respectful of everyone, free from the arbitrary shackles of dogma.
AL500 wrote:
The atheist has lost all foundation for moral complaint against God if He does not exist.

I can't image an atheist interested in complaining against "god." But, there are men who speak for "god," (this seems to be the only way we hear from "god" anymore) and speak of things attributed to "god," so unless we dismiss them totally with a wave of the hand, we're stuck approaching to topic based on their premise. I don't have such qualms. *waves*
[snipped same thing said two more different ways]
AL500 wrote:
In contrast, the atheist is like an amoeba or worm trying to super-impose his own finite understanding of knowledge and morality onto a superior bring. Atheists are arguing from the vantage point of insufficient knowledge and wisdom. God IS absolute knowledge and wisdom. He does not make mistakes. He is perfectly just in everything He does.

No, theists use words like, "truth, knowledge, wisdom, perfection," never really certain that they mean anything, but totally satisfied with it. Your view is drawing windows on a refrigerator box and calling it a house.


AL500
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Thormos, it appears you

Thormos, it appears you have missed my point entirely, and you contradicted yourself. You first stated that God does not exist so we don't have to judge His morals. Then you proceeded to assert His actions as atrocious. That's a judgement. My point is that this thread HAS judged God. If God does NOT exist, then who's moral standard are atheists judging Him by? If He does not exist, then there cannot be an absolute moral standard or ethic. Morality becomes cultural and relative. Your conception of morality might not agree with another persons conception. And if morality is not absolute, you have no infallible way of validating your own conception over another conception. It all becomes relative and meaningless. So, when an atheist accuses God of immoral actions, he is secretly relying upon the theistic worldview of absolute morality. He may deny this, but this is exactly what the atheist is doing. He is assuming that such a thing as ultimate morality and justice exist. The problem for the atheist is that these assumptions do not comport with his own worldview.

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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AL500 wrote: Thormos, it

AL500 wrote:

Thormos, it appears you have missed my point entirely, and you contradicted yourself. You first stated that God does not exist so we don't have to judge His morals. Then you proceeded to assert His actions as atrocious. That's a judgement. My point is that this thread HAS judged God. If God does NOT exist, then who's moral standard are atheists judging Him by? If He does not exist, then there cannot be an absolute moral standard or ethic. Morality becomes cultural and relative. Your conception of morality might not agree with another persons conception. And if morality is not absolute, you have no infallible way of validating your own conception over another conception. It all becomes relative and meaningless. So, when an atheist accuses God of immoral actions, he is secretly relying upon the theistic worldview of absolute morality. He may deny this, but this is exactly what the atheist is doing. He is assuming that such a thing as ultimate morality and justice exist. The problem for the atheist is that these assumptions do not comport with his own worldview.

Most moral examples or discussions includes imaginary examples.

There's nothing contradictory for me to have an opinion on an example or reference to something that a "god" is supposedly to have done.

And there is one way I can argue god's morality without resorting to any ultimate morality.

I do this by comparing his morality(shown to me by example from the Bible or whatever) to my own.

Since morality is relative, my own moral code must be the fixation point where my moral claim arises.

Comparing the two moral codes, mine and "god's", I can see a difference. And while I might not say that mine is better than his, I can say that they don't match.

And here lies the core problem.

If my moral values conflict with god's moral values, then I can not agree on his actions.

I have a difference of opinion with god. or in reality I have a difference of opinion with the Theist's who invoke such a god.

And until this difference of opinion is resolved, I cant consciously agree or comply to your actions or moral value.

As my moral values, and not your moral values, has to be the basis from where my actions arise.

 

The only way a society can become stable, is to take into account that everyone has a different opinion. And where those opinions agree we create laws, and where they differ we make a compromise. This is democracy, and if anything that is what I believe in.


"Everyone knows that God drives a Plymouth: "And He drove Adam And Eve from the Garden of Eden in His Fury."
And that Moses liked British cars: "The roar of Moses' Triumph was heard throughout the hills."
On the other hand, Jesus humbly drove a Honda but didn't brag about it, because in his own words: "I did not speak of my own Accord." "


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AL500 wrote:

AL500 wrote:

Puzzled Thormos, it appears you have missed my point entirely, and you contradicted yourself. You first stated that God does not exist so we don't have to judge His morals. Then you proceeded to assert His actions as atrocious. That's a judgement. My point is that this thread HAS judged God. If God does NOT exist, then who's moral standard are atheists judging Him by? If He does not exist, then there cannot be an absolute moral standard or ethic. Morality becomes cultural and relative. Your conception of morality might not agree with another persons conception. And if morality is not absolute, you have no infallible way of validating your own conception over another conception. It all becomes relative and meaningless. So, when an atheist accuses God of immoral actions, he is secretly relying upon the theistic worldview of absolute morality. He may deny this, but this is exactly what the atheist is doing. He is assuming that such a thing as ultimate morality and justice exist. The problem for the atheist is that these assumptions do not comport with his own worldview. Puzzled

Thormos never contradicted himself, he was just playing along with the idea of your imaginary sky daddy just to show you how crazy you are. You just don't undertstand that we DON'T NEED Imaginary Friends to give us a reason to be good. If we did get our morals from what ever your talking about then why is 99.9% of the Prison population theists? Morality is based on Sympathy, Education, Social Ties, & Needs. The ending of Slavery is a clear example of the previous sentence I just typed. If we all lived by the bible & gods standards like you so easily proclaim we do/should, then I myself most likely wouldn't be here/able to type this message to you right now, considering the fact that jesus/god/holy spirit clearly supported slavery.

And your right we don't have a True/False concept for validating one conception over another conception. But this is 2007, we have laws, and we have the common sense to know what's right & wrong based on how it effects our fellow man as a whole. I touched up a little bit on this subject in my "The Argument For Reality Based On Beauty & Feelings" blog. While holding religion close to you What your basically saying is that you don't KILL, RAPE, & STEAL because you're afriad of going to hell. Atheist and Rational people have MUCH MORE BETTER reasons for Good than the theist system could EVER represent!

My 2 cents...

Slimm,

[MOD EDIT - attempted to fix black background on quoted text so it would display] 

Quote:
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called Insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called Religion." - Robert M. Pirsig,


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I've noticed that many Xian

I've noticed that many Xian apologists have a remarkably casual attitude toward mass murder and what can only be described as genocide whenever the Bible describes it as a good thing to do. Like Deut 7:1-5:

 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you—and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire.

What may be called the Final Solution of the Canaanite Question. Which the Book of Joshua describes the Israelites as implementing.

I find such apologetics worse than Nazi Holocaust-denial apologetics in certain ways, because the Nazi apologists at least accept the premise that mass murder is not a very good thing to do.


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AL500 wrote: Well, God

AL500 wrote:
Well, God does punish and kill sinners. He is just. He cannot permit sin and evil to continue. He has warned mankind through His holy prophets since the world began. The greatest tribulation ever seen in the world is yet to come.

So genocide is ok as long as its what God wants?