The Cruelty and the Repeated Answer to Pacal's Wager

Free Thinking
Free Thinking's picture
Posts: 128
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
The Cruelty and the Repeated Answer to Pacal's Wager

The Cruelty and the Repeated Answer to Pacal's Wager

by Hellon Earth and inspired by Sam Harris and www.annotatedrant.com

 

***

Many artists, writers and intellectuals have deep concerns with religion and Pascal’s Wager. The most troubling thing about religion is all the suffering and destruction it causes. We have gratuitous and graphic evidence of this.

So when all arguments for religion have been exhausted, the theist resorts to Pascal’s Wager, insisting, “If god doesn’t exisit, then what have I got to lose by believing in him? If I believe I will win entry into heaven, but if god doesn’t exist after all, I’ve lost nothing.”

This is, by far, is the most selfish argument of all.

While Pascal’s wager is debunked with all sorts of rationale and is contradicted in the bible, most theists still insist they have nothing to lose.

“What have you got to lose?” the theist will say to me after all their preaching has been exhausted with no effect on me.

When the theist has finally stfu, I say this to them:

Perhaps you have nothing to lose but the rest of us have a lot at stake. The rest of us have to put up with your religious wars and fighting. The rest of us have to pay for your religious wars and then are left bankrupt and broken to pick up the pieces as you go and wage war again in another part of the world. The rest of us have to suffer because it is you that has nothing to lose in your silly gamble. As you indulge in this silly notion, you are putting the rest of us risk.

Well, stop asking because the rest of us have a lot to lose. The rest of us have lost the right to live in peace and are unable to live in a world with less violence. Religion is destroying what we have left of this world with all your war mongering for your god. Innocent people die in suffering. There are children living amongst copses until the gunfire has died down so they can quickley bury their mothers and fathers before you come back with more guns. Are you sure there is nothing to lose?

Many are forced to go to war because of you and your religions. You send our fathers, brothers and sons to die for a (worthless) cause you are too cowardly to do yourselves. Our fathers, brothers and sons come back with their hearts broken, their spirits lost and with suffering that will poison their lives forever just so you can continue to ask that question to the rest of us again and again, over and over. We are cursed with wars driven by your twisted morals and it is the rest of us, and not you, who are paying for it.

How dare you insist I follow your god as you murder and rape innocent people? How dare you impose your violent religion on me when children are suffering because of the wars you create in the name of your god? How can you justify continued genocide and atrocity in the name of your god? And then you have the audacity to ask the rest of us what we have got to lose by believing in your god. With cruelty, you insist with such arrogance that there is nothing to lose and that nothing is at risk.

Perhaps you don’t care about the rest of the world because you live in the safety of ignorance and with the comfort of your heavenly wager. Or maybe you're too busy asking everyone, “What have you got to lose?” to care.

So, I have to ask you this:

Do you not care that your children and your future generations have so much to lose? How arrogant and selfish you are to leave a shattered world behind for them to inherit. How dare you force your children and your future generations to live in the violence you are guilty of creating in the name of religion? Is this what you want to leave for them? Do you still have nothing to lose?

You may justify your gratuitous and selfish motivations by saying you are fighting for your children’s future but are you aware that you are leaving them to deal with the hatred you will leave behind? You have condemned them to answer for your crimes. You have condemned them to face the consequences of your murders and killings. You have condemned them to living in a world devastated and ruined by your wars. Your children will be looked upon as the spawn of evil by the children of those you have murdered in the name of your god. You have condemned your children to a life of hatred created in the name someone else’s god. You have sentenced them to live out their days in the hell you have created on this earth.

And yet, many of you continue to ask, “What have you got to lose?”

You may want to selfishly send your family members to their deaths, even proud because they are part of this mission to dominate the world with your religion but the rest of us have to deal with your stupidity by mourning the deaths of those we love who have been murdered in the name of your god.

Your mission to convert the rest of us is killing us. Your mission to impose your religion on the rest of the world is destroying us. You are murdering humanity and perverting values and morals to do so. It is sick and shameful. It is pathological and selfish. How can you continue to ignore this when people are murdered because of your “faith”?

And I guess you are right. What have you got to lose? When you have so little compassion and so little love there is not much to lose and so you continue to use this worthless argument to justify your violent belief in god.

Some of you may claim to be “different”, a moderate, liberal, insisting that you are not “that kind” of theist thus absolving yourselves from responsibility. This too is selfish and I don’t know how any theist can claim to have compassion. By standing around and being a “moderate” theist you are just helping those who have corrupted and perverted your religion by letting them represent you and your faith. You moderate theists have a responsibility to your faith, to your god and to your fellow theists to stop the violence and yet you stand by and watch them kill instead of activly persuading your fellow theists to stop the fighting, to stop the wars, to stop the violence. You have a responsibility to humanity and to yourselves to ease this violence for the future of your children and your children’s children. Is your god unworthy of your protection from those who pervert and abuse his name to go to war? Is this the cost of your wager? Do you still feel like you have nothing to lose?

Perhaps you are a Christian and believe that Jebus is returning in your lifetime. You feel you don’t have to worry about the future because god will destroy it after Jesus has come. Or maybe you are a follower of Allah and can't wait for jihad to come because you believe heaven awaits.

It is people like you who are driven to all this violence. It is you folks wanting to go to war for the welcoming of Jesus or jihad. It is you folks who are most cruel, who have no mercy, have no compassion, who enjoy the deaths and murders of those who do not agree with you. It is you folks that insist on living in a hellish world dominated by religious wars. It is you folks who promote this evil to somehow hurry your entry into heaven even though you folks are the least worthy of such grace.

Instead of wasting everyone's time asking the rest of us what we have got to lose by beliving in your god, how about you just leave the rest of us alone as you wait for rapture or jihad. How about you stop asking that stupid, fucking question over and over again because I’ve answered it a million times before. Let the rest of us live in peace so the remaining days on earth are not filled with murder and war. According to you, there isn’t much time left. The rest of us would like to enjoy that short time in peace while you are busy getting ready your ticket to heaven.

Leaving the rest of us alone would give the rest of us more time, energy and resources to help alleviate some of the suffering in the world. We could use all that effort for much more practical things than your religious wars. We could use it to save and preserve our world.

As you keep insisting that you have nothing to lose by believeing in your god, the very least you can do is leave the rest of us alone so that the rest of us can focus on the immediate issues of the day, so we can help the less fortunate, so we can help ease the suffering from disease and illness, so we can love each other in peace.

So before you start going around and asking, “What have you got to lose?” and imposing your faith on everyone then killing other theists for doing the same, leave the rest of us and our resources alone because the rest of us have better fucking things to do.

That's right, motherfucker. We got better things to do because we too are at war. And before you go on about double standards with whiny commentary like “how come we’re not allowed to go to war and you are??”

I’ll tell you why, motherfucker.

Because the rest of us are fighting for real, motherfuckers. Because the rest of us are fighting real wars. The rest of us are trying our best to win the war against suffering, disease and violence. And while you theists are running around insisting you have nothing to lose, the rest of us are fighting against the destruction of our earth. We will be fighting to preserve humanity. We will be fighting the cruelty you have imposed on us. We will be fighting for the future of our children and even for the future of your theist children, motherfuckers.

So why don’t you theists just fucking leave the rest of us alone so we can fight the real battles that are truly worthy of sacrifice, you self-rightous motherfuckers?

Is this too much to ask for?

If it is, then I ask you this:

Why can’t you leave us alone? Why won’t you leave us alone?

Pascal’s wager is the most selfish and cruel arguement you can give for joining your crusades and for believing in your god. You folks often resort to this last argument pathetically and selfishly without ever considering the real consequences.

The next theist jackass that asks, “What have you got to lose by beliving in god?” should be forced to fight in their own fucking wars with their whole fucken theist families against the next thiest asshole and his fucking theist family who says, "I've got nothing to lose by believing in god."

Oh wait, you motherfuckers are already doing that.

“What have you got to lose by believing in god?”

I’ll answer your question for the last fucking time, motherfucker. So listen up, motherfuckers, because this is the absolute last time I answer that stupid, fucking question.

I’ve got everything to lose, motherfuckers, and the rest of us have everything to lose so stop using Pascal's fucking wager argument to try to make me join your cult, you selfish bastards. While you are wasting everyone's time and energy preaching that we have nothing to lose, the rest of us are desperately trying to fix all the the destruction your religions have caused to humanity.

So take your fucking questions and your religious fucking wars and shove it up your ass, you selfish motherfuckers, because the rest of us are too fucking busy trying to figure out how to undo the damage you've done to fucking care about your god or about your stupid fucking questions.

Got it?

***

 

 

Judge: god, you have been accused of existence! What do you have to say for yourself?

god: I am innocent until proven guilty, your honour!


Wonderist
atheist
Wonderist's picture
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2006-03-19
User is offlineOffline
I like it. We need more

I like it. We need more hard-line arguments like this that make Pascal's Wager look foolish. It is far too commonly relied upon even by more-or-less intelligent people today. Hopefully we'll one day make it as embarassing to use fallacious arguments for god as it is to believe the earth is flat 'because, well, it sure looks flat from down here.'

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Free Thinking wrote: So

Free Thinking wrote:



So take your fucking questions and your religious fucking wars and shove it up your ass, you selfish motherfuckers, because the rest of us are too fucking busy trying to figure out how to undo the damage you've done to fucking care about your god or about your stupid fucking questions.

Got it?

***

 

 

Are you fucking kidding me? How am I supposed to fucking take your fucking arguments seriously when fucking everything you fucking say is so fucking laced with fucking anger that it fucking makes me want to fucking laugh.

That's pretty fucked. 


Free Thinking
Free Thinking's picture
Posts: 128
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
I thought it was pretty

I thought it was pretty fucking funny!

 It starts out kinda polite and nice, then gets angerier and more pissed off!

I think the point was:  Leave us alone, we got better things to do!

lol... it's kinda like when theists go on iwth their arguements, then when they have all been refutted, they still ask the same questions!  And then they say that their questions haven't been answered so whine the same questions again!

 It would just be easier for us I guess where everytime we hear the same stupid arguement we could just have:  Please refer to rebuttle number 12...  We have the polite version, mid, then pissed version.  The first time you ask, you get the polite version.  The second time you ask and it's already been answered... you get the assertive and firm answer... then the next time you ask AGAIN... you get the good old "fuck off" version.

No, it's pretty fucked that people are still using this bullshit to go around murdering others.

Theist's time would be much better put to use and be a great example for your communities to do some practical and positivie things instead of wasting people's time preaching... 

 

 

Judge: god, you have been accused of existence! What do you have to say for yourself?

god: I am innocent until proven guilty, your honour!


Free Thinking
Free Thinking's picture
Posts: 128
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
wavefreak wrote: Free

wavefreak wrote:
Free Thinking wrote:



So take your fucking questions and your religious fucking wars and shove it up your ass, you selfish motherfuckers, because the rest of us are too fucking busy trying to figure out how to undo the damage you've done to fucking care about your god or about your stupid fucking questions.

Got it?

***

 

Are you fucking kidding me? How am I supposed to fucking take your fucking arguments seriously when fucking everything you fucking say is so fucking laced with fucking anger that it fucking makes me want to fucking laugh.

That's pretty fucked.

what are you saying?!  that you won't take it seriously enough to maybe stop preaching?

You mean, that wasn't a clear enough message for you to get it?  You mean you're still gonna ask the same stupid quesitons over, and over again?

You mean the person has to be more angry and fucked for you to stop preaching?

Seriously?  We can't ask you polite and rationally, or with asserted firmness or even the plain old "fuck off'?

Holy fuck!  You mean to say, you won't be leaving the rest of the world alone?! ever?! no matter what?!

Fuck! That fucking sucks!

You missed the fucking point. 

Judge: god, you have been accused of existence! What do you have to say for yourself?

god: I am innocent until proven guilty, your honour!


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Free Thinking

Free Thinking wrote:

Theist's time would be much better put to use and be a great example for your communities to do some practical and positivie things instead of wasting people's time preaching...

 

You will not get an argument from me on this. I am often ashamed of what people pass off as "good religion". 


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Free Thinking

Free Thinking wrote:
wavefreak wrote:
Free Thinking wrote:



So take your fucking questions and your religious fucking wars and shove it up your ass, you selfish motherfuckers, because the rest of us are too fucking busy trying to figure out how to undo the damage you've done to fucking care about your god or about your stupid fucking questions.

Got it?

***

 

Are you fucking kidding me? How am I supposed to fucking take your fucking arguments seriously when fucking everything you fucking say is so fucking laced with fucking anger that it fucking makes me want to fucking laugh.

That's pretty fucked.

what are you saying?! that you won't take it seriously enough to maybe stop preaching?

You mean, that wasn't a clear enough message for you to get it? You mean you're still gonna ask the same stupid quesitons over, and over again?

You mean the person has to be more angry and fucked for you to stop preaching?

Seriously? We can't ask you polite and rationally, or with asserted firmness or even the plain old "fuck off'?

Holy fuck! You mean to say, you won't be leaving the rest of the world alone?! ever?! no matter what?!

Fuck! That fucking sucks!

You missed the fucking point.

 

If  a fucking fucker fucks a fucked fuckee is the fuckee more fucked than the fucker?

 

Oh fuck it. 


spiritisabone
Posts: 35
Joined: 2007-05-13
User is offlineOffline
Pascal's wager or not, I

Pascal's wager or not, I find this essay quite naive (which is also why I find Sam Harris quite naive).  It is true that religion is often used to legitimate violence, and such legitimation should be rejected.  However, to assume that all these wars you refer to (in a very general way) would cease if only we got rid of religion is ridiculous.  It ignores the political, economic, and cultural factors that always seem to be present in war.  To ignore such factors, it seems to me, is ideology at its purest, and does nothing to address the more fundamental motivations that drive conflicts.  As for moderate theists, which moderate theists are you criticizing?  Many moderate theists are outspoken critics of violence and war and the people who perpetrate such acts.  Maybe if you were a little more specific, then I could take this statement seriously.  

"The will to revolutionary change emerges as an urge, as an 'I cannot do otherwise,' or it is worthless." --Slavoj Zizek


Ophios
Ophios's picture
Posts: 909
Joined: 2006-09-19
User is offlineOffline
Free Thinking wrote:

Free Thinking wrote:
It would just be easier for us I guess where everytime we hear the same stupid arguement we could just have: Please refer to rebuttle number 12...

We have a thread sort of like that.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/the_rational_response_squad_radio_show/freethinking_anonymous/4449

[MOD EDIT - fixed link]

[MOD NOTE - please remember to hit the return button AFTER entering a URL.  Otherwise, the link will not work.  Thanks.] 

AImboden wrote:
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.


Free Thinking
Free Thinking's picture
Posts: 128
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
spiritisabone

spiritisabone wrote:
Pascal's wager or not, I find this essay quite naive (which is also why I find Sam Harris quite naive). It is true that religion is often used to legitimate violence, and such legitimation should be rejected. However, to assume that all these wars you refer to (in a very general way) would cease if only we got rid of religion is ridiculous. It ignores the political, economic, and cultural factors that always seem to be present in war. To ignore such factors, it seems to me, is ideology at its purest, and does nothing to address the more fundamental motivations that drive conflicts. As for moderate theists, which moderate theists are you criticizing? Many moderate theists are outspoken critics of violence and war and the people who perpetrate such acts. Maybe if you were a little more specific, then I could take this statement seriously.

 

Oh well.  I don't think so much as this person is suggesting getting rid of religion. I think they are asking theists to stop asking that question, "what have you got to lose?" because they've already answered it, ad nausum it seems by the it ends.

I'm sorry you can't take them seriously enough to just maybe leave them alone. I didn't know one needed to use references when asking to be left alone.

The moderates shre refers to are those thesis who ask keep asking, "what have you got to lose?".  I think it's because she takes it personally.

It really doesn't matter... It was written by the girlfriend (or wife?) of one our friend's bother.  She's working in the middle east and aftrica as a teacher.  I guess she just wants to be left alone to teach?

Judge: god, you have been accused of existence! What do you have to say for yourself?

god: I am innocent until proven guilty, your honour!


Free Thinking
Free Thinking's picture
Posts: 128
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
Ophios wrote:

Ophios wrote:

Free Thinking wrote:
It would just be easier for us I guess where everytime we hear the same stupid arguement we could just have: Please refer to rebuttle number 12...

We have a thread sort of like that.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/the_rational_response_squad_radio_show/freethinking_anonymous/4449

[MOD EDIT - fixed link]

[MOD NOTE - please remember to hit the return button AFTER entering a URL.  Otherwise, the link will not work.  Thanks.]

 

Thank you. I'm having problesm with the link, though. I'll try again later, it will work maybe? bah... computers... Thank you.

Judge: god, you have been accused of existence! What do you have to say for yourself?

god: I am innocent until proven guilty, your honour!


spiritisabone
Posts: 35
Joined: 2007-05-13
User is offlineOffline
I have no problem leaving

I have no problem leaving people alone, and I would never pose the question "What have you got to lose?" to someone.  (In my opinion, all decision, whether it is political, religious (or non-religious), or otherwise, involves risk and loss.)  I only wanted to point out that they way things are framed makes it difficult for me to take the statement of the problem seriously.  

"The will to revolutionary change emerges as an urge, as an 'I cannot do otherwise,' or it is worthless." --Slavoj Zizek


HC Grindon
High Level DonorModerator
Posts: 198
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
Free Thinking wrote:I

Free Thinking wrote:

I thought it was pretty fucking funny!

 It starts out kinda polite and nice, then gets angerier and more pissed off!

The buildup had me laughing my ass off!  I kept waiting for Samuel L. Jackson to jump out and yell:

"I am TIRED of these MUTHAFUCKIN theists, on this MUTHAFUCKIN terrestrial PLANE!"

:^)

-HCG


James Cizuz
James Cizuz's picture
Posts: 261
Joined: 2007-02-11
User is offlineOffline
There is a hell, and we are

There is a hell, and we are in it now. Whats worse then answering why pascal's wager sucks forever? NOTHING!

"When I die I shall be content to vanish into nothingness.... No show, however good, could conceivably be good forever.... I do not believe in immortality, and have no desire for it." ~H.L. Mencken

Thank god i'm a atheist!


ShaunPhilly
High Level ModeratorSilver Member
ShaunPhilly's picture
Posts: 473
Joined: 2006-03-15
User is offlineOffline
My answer to Pascal's wager

My answer to Pascal's wager uses much the same type of response.  Only instead of referring to violence, I refer to the fact that due to religion's views on different lifestyles, there are a bunch of really hot Christian chicks that believe they should wait until marriage.

Fuck that shit! I want to fuck some more fucking hot theist chicks!

Fuck! 

Seriously, the world would be better if people weren't so guilt-ridden about sex and could just enjoy themselves...with me in particular. 

What do they have to lose? Great sex.

Shaun 

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.