PROBLEM: Personal Testimony (You Explain)
Christian or athiest, with a little work, either side can take something said by the other and mold it to fit their own argument. I look outside and I see a beautiful creation obviously created by God. Others look outside and see a manifestation of matter completely controled by chance.
Personally, my faith did not begin or strengthen by looking at the trees or the stars. Nor did it strengthen by scientific knowledge or historical evidence. It strengthened with personal experiences.
The first time I called out to God I pulled over along side a mountain right off of a very busy road. I asked that if there be a God, and if He is the God of the Bible, that He would show me a shooting star. I never did see one. Instead, I got an overwhemling urge to get down on my knees and pray. I didn't want to because I was along a busy road. So I requested to pray in a quiet place. Just then, the traffic stopped for quite some time. It was completel silence. I waited, and waited some more. Nothing. So I got down on my knees and I prayed, and although I took my time praying I did not hear a single car off in the distance until about 1 second after I said "Amen."
Later in my walk, a guy I worked with wanted to buy my Jeep. I didn't want to sell it to him because my wife had wrecked it and it would need work. He said he does body work and that he would still like to buy it. Because this man was poor, I felt convicted by God to give it to him free of charge. My wife cleans the Church as a part time job. She called me from the Church and I told her that I wanted to give the jeep to this guy. She said, "We could probably get about $500 for it, but if that's what God wants you to do; do it." We both agreed to trust God. 10 minutes later my wife called and informed me that our pastor handed her a check for $500. Apparently, the elder board discussed our current financial situation and decided to give us the money toward a new car because we were struggling so much.
I have many more stories, but I'll leave you with this final story. A few weeks ago I had a dream where a girl I used to know popped in, and I felt like I had something to tell her from God. I woke up before I told her anything. About a week later I decided to message her on MySpace and I was very open about feeling as if God wanted me to tell her something. I said "I feel as if you have been lying awake in bed at night and seeking God." I also made it very clear that this was something that happened very often, and not just here and there. When she wrote me back she informed me that every night that week she had been up struggling with guilt and asking God to forgive her.
Did traffic just happen to stop just long enough for me to pray? Did my pastor just happen to hand my wife $500 dollars within 10 minutes after we sacrificed that exact amount to help somebody else? Did I just guess that the girl I knew was struggling at that exact time and describe her exact situation to her without knowing anything about what she was going through? Or did God make Himself evident through these things?
I cannot prove to you that He did any more than you can prove to me that He did not. But the issue here isn't what I can prove to you, or what you can prove to me; it's what He has proven to me and millions of others around the world who follow Him.
You will never be able to prove what did or did not happen 2,000 years ago. But can you disprove the personal testimonies of millions?
Good luck, if there is such a thing.
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I may be wrong on parts of my understanding of the Bible, however, that "test me" stuff I did not make up. God said "test me" in Malachi. I do not claim to be perfect, and I know I have said some stupid things here. But, the bottom line, for me, is that I do care about the people here...them being atheist does not cause me to look down on them. However, I cannot in good conscious, water down my opinions just to get them to like me. I simply refuse to do that. I know it makes them mad, just as they make me mad when they refuse to water down their truth for me. But, at least we can say we agree on that one thing.
Awesome! Misguided theology, eh? What did I get wrong, hm?
Is God somehow incompetent? Is that a tenet of Christianity I missed somewhere? Is that some big "Da Vinci Code"-esque secret of Christianity: that God has an extra chromosome and likes fingerpaints?
Is this a free will thing? I'm not talking about God making someone worship and love him. I can see that being a free will thing. I wouldn't buy that argument, either, but I could at least see where you're coming from. I'm talking about God performing a very basic act: convincing someone that he exists. How, precisely, would that violate free will? If I convince you that I exist, have I violated your free will? Presumably, one would still have the free will to make a decision based on the new information that God is Real. Satan presumably knew that God is Real but still managed to rebel. And some Christians claim that even atheists who knew God existed would still deny him, which is stupid but at least it shows a comprehension that knowing of someone's existence is vastly different from worshipping and loving that someone.
It's all a very silly concept, the idea that God is somehow prevented from convincing atheists he exists by sheer force of stubbornness. In the Bible, God shows himself lots of times. He reveals himself to the Israelites, he has his son do miracles and then raises him from the dead. He struck Paul with a vision on the road to Damascus, which is an interesting example because at the time Paul was quite resistant to believing the Christan God, even persecuting his followers. Are atheists even more un-convertable than Paul? And, let's not forget, on Judgment Day, "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord". Obviously God will have worked out some sort of convincing technique by then, and won't have any qualms about convincing everyone at once.
I'm sure Christian literature is full of stories about people who converted from atheism into Christianity because of some vision or experience. If those really were true conversions, and God really was behind them, why doesn't he do it for everyone? Would that be "too easy"? Are the atheists on these forums just even more stubborn than the conversion stories? I don't know how crazy theology works. I figured it would be a pretty cut-and-dry analysis: God wants Atheist X to be saved, God is all-powerful and all-knowing, God should be able to get what he wants (even without violating free will, to boot). To say otherwise is to say that stubborn atheists are more powerful than God.
That's not how it works, you say. It's not as cut-and-dry as that. There's nuances involved. Years of theological analysis. And I say bullshit. You don't get to play the nuance card because there are no nuances. God isn't just really powerful, he is all powerful. He didn't create some of existence, he created all of it. He is not just really smart, really good, really loving, he is the epitome and ideal of all those things. God is defined in terms of absolutes and perfection. Theists who claim that argument X doesn't take into account little details are idiots, because there are no little details when you define your deity in terms of broad sweeping strokes of perfection.
So, to bring this around to the original topic. If God wants me to believe in him, what's preventing God from getting what he wants? Maybe he's just lazy? Is free will like kryptonite to God, or just atheist free will? Or maybe it's stubborn atheist free will, and less stubborn atheists get converted by the bucketloads. Or maybe it's all crap crap crap crap crap.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Sugarfree, that's not at all true.
You obviously didn't read all the posts about Cory_T when he wasn't around and asking him to come back to the forums.
Also, I don't know anyone that doesn't like Wishkah311.
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Cory! I've missed you! Glad you liked my post. But here's the thing - giving, in some ways (at least for me) is kind of selfish as well. After all, if I'm 'giving' to someone, it's usually my choice and I usually somehow benefit from it. I benefit when I make a friend happy, because it makes me feel happy and gooey inside that I've made them happy. If I help someone, it makes me feel good about myself. I personally think this is a great thing that everyone benefits.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Actually you just did a pretty good job of explaining our side, in a general sense. I'll just shift the words to reflect our position instead of you and...
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.