Deconvert me.
Posted on: July 12, 2006 - 9:13pm
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Deconvert me.
I challenge you, good luck.
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Deconvert you from what in particular? There are as many personal interpretations of theism as there are persons.... funny enough
Besides, whatever it is, ultimately you need to do that yourself.
First start with being an open honest person, and recognise the benefit of critical thinking. Then If you have any questions i'm sure there's plenty of people here who can help you.
all the best,
-Klarky
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Proove there is no God.
Would you deconvert if I could prove there was no God? Really? Really? Honestly?
Oh well it's a pointless task anyway. The general concept of god can't be disproved. The concept doesn't fall into the realm of science because it's not falsifiable. Which is to say that there is nothing one could present to show its not true due to the concept not having any purchase in reality. Have a read here first so you can understand what constitutes a claim that can be subject to proof.
)
Of course just because one cannot disprove god's existence, doesn?t give the assertion that a god exists any more weight than another claim that is non-falsifiable, e.g. the claim that snarfwidgets created the universe, (sorry Brian that word has leaked into my vocabulary
Now, If you assert that the Christian God exists, then it can be logically shown that it cannot. Notice the distinction I made between the general concept of god and the xtain one? This is because aspects of the xtain god, as commonly understood, are internally contradictive.
If you claim there IS something that exists, (god for example), that is contentious. Then the Burdon of proof is on you my friend.
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Define God.
Define God.
Also, do you remember what type of God belief you had as a baby? You were absent of God belief, you didn't believe there was no God. That is what deconverting is, getting back to your naturally born state of atheist.
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Heh, I like you guys already. Ok, the Christian God then, sorry if I came off kind of... retarded. I was in a hurry.
Could you still try to define the Christian God?
Additionally:
Do you believe the bible is literal?
Is it the infallible word of God?
Is this God all knowing and all loving?
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I think the bible is not literal, therefore not the infallible word of God. God is omnipresent.
Ok, we'll come back to the above. Can you answer the remaining questions:
Can you define the Christian God?
Is this God all knowing and all loving?
NEW QUESTION AS WELL:
How do you know which parts of the bible are literal and which ones aren't?
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Christian God would be the one who sent his son to die for the sins of human kind. I believe he is omnipresent whether he is all knowing and all loving is unimportant. I know which parts are literal and which aren't based mainly on the proof we've uncovered on most of these things. Jesus was a real person who was really crucified beyond that could be metaphor. I don't know.
Yeah, it's important.
Still waiting for that definition of god. It looks like your first sentence was an attempt at a definition, but it wasn't.
Please outline your research behind each line of the bible and which sentences are literal and which sentences we've uncovered proof for, and provide the evidences. Thanks!
And the proof for this crucifixion outside of the bible originating from the time of crucifixion can be found, where?
I must ask... why believe in something you "don't know?"
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Daniel 4:10-11
4:10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth
Question. Standing on this tree gives you the sight to see the whole world.... If it was Flat. Is the world flat or did God change it to a sphere when we went into space. Anyone know?
What a fucking retard. What makes you think that i'd give a shit about your enlightenment?
i can't prove that God does not exist.
You can't prove that he does.
You believe in one of a multitude af fictitious, man-made, creatively constructed, supernatural beings, as is your right. You also have the right to believe in aliens and ghosts....
If you really want to be an ignorant retard NOBODY is going to stop you, just like i wouldnt stop you if you were about to jump off a fucking bridge.
The Beauty of Atheism is that people don't get converted by other people, as in your religion... It is a process you go through yourself... a process of looking for FACTS and thinking critically about wtf is going on.
People like you have no chance of 'being converted' because you are in a defensive reactionary position.... this only makes you believe harder...
But i think that is a good thing.
Some people simply aren't fit for Atheism.
Not in the manner I believe it isn't.
Yes that is my definition of the Christian God, feel free to run with whatever stereotypes you've already collected though.
Bring up any point you wish and I'll answer it to the best of my ability.
Interesting read:
... Faith, you can't prove god doesn't exist anymore than I can prove he does exist, to debate this would be redudant and futile.
Ok, you said this is the definition for God, however it doesn't suffice.
This isn't a definition that properly explains what God is.
I'll give you an example to illustrate... let's say I said a chair is something you sit on. Well if that's the case then anything you sit on is a chair, for example a car hood could be a chair, a kitchen table could be a chair. However if I said that a chair is a seat with legs, back, and sometimes armrests to be used by a single person then I would have defined for you the word that you can use to locate chairs. Now the way you defined God does nothing to tell me what God is, if you can't affix a definition to him that is sensical then there really is no reason to believe, or the ability for anyone to understand what it is you believe. If there's no reason for you to believe, the only step left to your deconversion is for you to be honest with yourself about the above facts.
Equilibrium feel free to step in with a seperate argumentation on this issue.
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God:
So Christian God is one of those, whom sent it's son to die for the sins of humanity.
You could've just said you don't have the proof required. I'm too tired to do your research for you right now, especially for someone that has already lied at least once on something so small and stupid tonight.
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Which one is he? I thought you didn't know if he was omnipotent and omniscient. Do you know now?
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I basically said there is circumstantial evidence that suggests jesus exists, it's enough for me. Now whether he's the son of god or not is debatable.
You win, I'm an Athiest now.
People also chose to defend that the earth was flat for thousands of years...
we know how that turned out.
In fact, the same people who wrote the documents you cite as evidence, also stated that the earth was flat.
...and you believe them?
If God dictated the Bible he would've maybe told them the earth is 5 billion years old and round, dontcha think?
You win, i'm convinced that you're not an idiot.
wether anything supernatural has ever existed is debatable.
Quit being so sure of yourself, it's a big fucking universe anything is possible. The problem I have with Athiests is that you think your so right about everything it's pompous it's retarded. Someone on this very forum asked me to describe things people would fight over if they weren't fighting over religion. Let me say that again, SOMEONE ASKED ME TO DESCRIBE THINGS PEOPLE WOULD FIGHT OVER IF THEY WEREN'T FIGHTING OVER RELIGION! The guys on your radioshow are retarded and close minded, they don't realise they've just jumped boat from one extreme to the other. They were devout Christians, now they're devoutly not christian, in the meantime neither group have any proof their right, just philosphical battles of witt that don't do much at all. To tell you the truth anyone who looses their faith to these jackasses is just of weak mind, why? Because like you said, you cannot prove a thing.
Yeah, but seriously there once was a guy, and his name was, decidedly Jesus. The complications of that, may not be very compelling.
hahaa nice rant but you didn't address my reply.
Yes, anything is possible, EVEN YOUR GOD, but his existence is NOT PROBABLE. And it is not possible for me to have faith in something that is not probable. Yes, many of us have gone from one extreme to the other . . . because it is something we feel strongly about. Your participation in these 'philosphical battles of witt', even your presence on these forums, shows that it is not a futile exercise.
Let's assume Jesus did exist.
What suggests that he was the son of God?
Probable? That's what you say, others hold different beliefs than you. Trust me I'm not going to go around asking people what they think is probable and not it's relative. I feel strongly that you guys are wasting your time and should all collectively shut up, Christians included.
Who cares, I was joking, I said whatever complications arise from his being alive, may not be that compelling, since my time machine isn't coming along to well, you'll have to forgive me if I don't have an exact answer.
Uhm....
excuse me i'm confused...
If that is how you feel WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL HERE?
I'm spreading the good word, of shut up. This debate is pointless. Go home and be content that you can live however you want without having other people authenticate it for you, or trying to convince people they're wrong because this is lame.
I go to a Christian private school and know a lot about theology. So I feel pretty safe in saying, neither side has any compelling arguments.
I believe we have very compelling arguments, and that, my boy, is exactly why you want us to shut-up.
Yeah god forbid we find any sort of neutral ground, you caught me, it looks like my trickery and reverse psychology haven't worked. I know one thing for a fact. I believe that I'm tired. This is a Faith based initiative. You could argue that I'm just not awake enough and I need to work it out. I could counter that I am me and it is my choice, you could call my choice stupid or improbable and unlikely, you could even find logical loopholes in the term tired. Goodnight.
So why initiate it then?
I'm not resident of the USA but from what I can understand there is a real need to address the concept of christainity in America. It has become intertwined with politics and is therefore capable of revisting its past of oppression of thought and personal choice.
Ohh right, I guess we should all shut up then since you have indicted that you're a 'know it all'. And how does Christian private school teach you about the 'other side' of the debate whithout being biased?
I said in my 2nd reply to your original post this would be pointless, but it took you to the bottom of the 2nd page to realise it too :roll:
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This one has too much pride, no matter what we say he won't deconvert.
Let us all think for him, praise nothing!
"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
I think we have a new candidate for the "Asshat" picture!
one thing I can't realize is the fact that: many evolutionist would claim that the world is eternal and can start life without cause. or if there was ever a cause God wouldn't be it.
to me atheist would be the same thing to that of a theist the only difference is that one believes in a supreme being and the other doesn't yeah I've read this whole thread and I did get some ideas off of it.
you say its open minded to you and that we were the ones brainwashed.. well didn't darwin brainwash those who believe in the evolution theory? I wouldnt say I was brainwashed since I've looked up the evidence for me to believe which is right and which is wrong. not saying I am right or wrong. but things I need to also think about is that even some bioligy teachers in high school are devout christians who well just teach something they dislike. I am sure if evolution was infallible they would certainly have became atheist which is a belief not a free minded state.
"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY
you do know that the term is 'closed minded' right?
otherwise thats a huge rickyism. (for the trailerpark boys fans around... if any, lol).
[if you want, you can believe santa and god are the same person, to me thats just as funny as believing jesus is our savior]
It's ok, i hope that your curiosity that brought you to this website is the same curiousity that will make you investigate some of the questions Sapient asked you.
Until i found this website, i hadn't ever controversed with anyone with the same religous views as me.
So, fuck you.
God is the omnimax creator by definition of major religions. If there is evidence that the religion is incorrect about the nature of reality, then there is evidence that the God the religion defines does not exist.
We can only define God based on the descriptions we have on him. Since there is no real world evidence that we can see right now and say "Look. See that ? That's the face of God. That was a footstep left by him when he visited our town", we have therefore to rely on the closest source to his beginning and his times. Up to the present date, that source would be the Christian Bible.
However, up to now, the Bible offers absolutely no proof in itself (and we all know how vague the Bible is in exact dates), and, furthermore, it's a book with these characteristics:
- it was man-written, almost every book in it by a different author
- it was pieced together by man (before the year 800 the Bible had no Apocalypse included)
- it was extremely contradictory to its own self (try evilbible.com for a very incomplete, but compellingly long list)
- it has been "updated" so that the contradictions with what we think now (slavery, the condition of women, etc.) will not pop up so easily to an untrained mind
- it is extremely contradictory with science (earth is flat, woman was created out of man's rib, etc.)
- presents all sort of mystical creatures that nobody can see today (read Ezekiel, or Daniel)
- offers absolutely no clue about recent discoveries (fossils, the solar system, other solar systems, artificial life generation, cloning, etc.)
- its moral code is extremely intricate and has no connection with today's morality (just read the Deuteronomy for that and no, Jesus did NOT say that the Old Testament doesn't count anymore)
- history offers enough examples of ill-application of the Biblical code
- apart from referring to a certain God (who is only named in 2-3 books) and with a connection to the Jewish people (I'm NOT Jewish, by the way), there's no connection between the books in the Bible
Therefore, please show me one good reason why we should trust the word of the Bible.
Also please do not give me arguments like:
- most people believe in that, so it must be true (ALL people once believed the world is flat, and they were wrong)
- I have no other explanation for our very existance (neither have you for the existance of your God... if we say that God simply existed, the same thing we can say about matter... it simply existed, and at one time it exploded)
- why don't monkeys evolve towards humans (perhaps they do; are you willing to wait 20000-30000 years to find out?)
- atheists do not have a moral code, and cannot have one (yes, we perfectly can... and sometimes it's far better than yours; my parents are devout atheists, and I have never: beaten someone, stole anything, killed anything, insulted or did harm to anyone/thing "out of pure fun", etc., wich isn't what I can say about many Christians)
- etc.
They are all logical fallacies and if that's the only thing you have to throw against us, then I will give you the phone number of my "Logics and argumentative thinking" professor.
I respect your faith. Though I rant about it, because I perceive it as something very negative, a "plague" if you wish to call it like that, and I ask people to deconvert, I will respect you if you chose not to. I have Christian, Muslim, Agnostic, Atheist and Buddhist Friends friends, and none hve complained about me pushing them to drop their faith. It's up to you, and not to me, to deconvert.
If you want to be proven with strait and simple argumentative logic, then first define:
- God
- the Holy Spirit
- omnipotence
- omniscience
- omnipresence
- the Devil (or Satan or how you wish to call it)
- good
- evil
- free will
...and you'll have simple logic applied to your definitions of these terms. I'm skeptical you'll ever find definitions that will not contradict with one another, but I'm really in for a try... Define, and I shall argument my point of view.
Someone once said: "When you understand why you dismiss all other gods but yours, you will understand why I dismiss yours as well."
Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/
I don't know any people who subscribe to evolution that would say that the world is eternal? (I dont like the term 'evolutionists') Besides evolution doesn't say anything about origins of the world/earth itself.
That is an important difference you mention there and it is the main difference; one believes the other does not. Although the atheist position isn't as ridged as the theist one, he IS open to resonable debate on the issue.
Darwin didn't brainwash anyone. He published a theory and you can take it or leave it. In fact he held back publishing his theory because of the implications on christain society, so he was sensitive to the implications of his theory. But, if you decide to examine the detail of Darwins claim in a fair and rational way it makes sense, and of course these 140 years since publication has only served to uncover huge amounts of evidence to support the theory. Christain theology by comparison only survives if the young are brainwashed and infected with this mind virus at an early age.
Teachers teach the young science based on the commonly accepted and understood theories of the day. Evolutionary theory remains one of the success stories of science and has only grown stronger over the years by the continuing influx of supporting data. If not liking a theory is enough for them not to teach it then they have no business being a teacher.
In the case you mention, (which I think is an exception not the norm), Believers remain belivers due to the difficulty in letting go childhood indoctrination. It's like trying to give up heroin . These mental states are not very rational, but they are often emotional responses to being presented with evidence to the contrary.
Atheism is a lack of belief, its a 'free minded state' (as you put it), with regards to the rejection of the claim of gods existance, nothing else.
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Hmm, despite the fact that one side's arguing for an invisible man in the sky who craves our sycophantic credalistic adulatory mumblings and sent his son to get the snot kicked out of him so that this self-same invisible dude could get over some of us touching our tallywhackers in the shower?! Despite the fact that us atheists are simply arguing that this invisible sky-dude doesn't exist?!
Someone's a bit naive...
N.B. I had to add that I also went to a Christian private school for three years after being homeschooled by my Christian parents and that I was a DEVOUT Christian from the time I was four until I was about eighteen and a half (give or take) and that I didn't apostatize until I was almost twenty. I've read extensively on the history and doctrines of Christianity in antiquity from a number of authors and I'm an anthropology major. Not to boast but thought I should toss that out there given your statement that you're at a Christian private school and know theology.
The cause of life was energy working on complex organic compounds in prebiotic replicators. No need for invisible Mega-Pixies.
This is tautological as well as confusing- if I'm to understand you correctly you're saying we're the SAME except that one of us believes in the Mega-Pixy and the other doesn't?! Well, TRUE ENOUGH, but good grief! That's quite a difference! Hope you've been opened to some new ideas, though so far I'm not too convinced.
Come in, Houston... No, Darwin definitively did NOT brainwash people with his theory, which you would know if you did even a modicum of research on it and realized the mounds of bullshit that cretin "scientists" have shoveled on gullible and ignorant churchgoers. Evolution continues to be supported by vast quantities of evidence from genetics, morphology, fossils, biogeography and so forth. Yes, some biology teachers are Christians, and plenty of Christians accept evolution. So what? Evolution makes no implicit claims on the metaphysical, nor does science in general. No, evolution is not infallible- just extremely well supported and accepted by thinking people for that reason. Not surprisingly you mis-state atheist "beliefs" as such- atheism is the LACK of a belief in the Mega-Pixy/mega-pixies in general and in my case, an active disaverral of their existance.
OM"G" you're RIGHT, you WIN! I'm an agnostic now who accepts the possibility of a Mega-Pixy who gets angry when I touch my "tallywhacker" in the shower, craves my sycophantic credalistic adulatory mumblings, sent a first-century CE Palestinian Jew to get the snot kicked out of him to satiate his wrath at the aformentioned tallywhacker-touching, and tells us all this through an ancient book of unreliable miracle stories and poetry! While I'm at it I think I'll go buy some pasta to make a shrine to the Flying Spaghetti Monster!
nice response :smt023
disaverral ?
Thanks! You too. To disaver is to disavow, so in this case I'm affirming that I believe that no mega-pixies exist.
then would time be eternal?
that is why I said the belief is the difference in believing in God or not..
no one ever pushed me to the extreme. infact I never became a Christian till after my 11th grade year. which was after my biology class. and I never recall anyone telling me to believe in this.. but if your saying they use the if you don't then you'll go to the Lake of Fire for not believing. it is wrong. no one pushed me that far in order to believe in it.
that is still a belief. you just don't believe in God A - Theist vs. Theist who does believe in a God.
one just chooses to trust that there is no supreme being. while the other does
"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY
uhm JS, before you type....
You might want to start your mind before you put your fingers into gear...
99% of what you type is utter crap.
Make a point, and back up your arguments.
Also, this thread was about deconverting Humanzy, not evolution, or wether or not atheism is a religion(lol).
So if you have a point to make or want to discuss something start a topic in the relevant forum.
Thanks.
no I wrote something based on what I read through this thread itself
Jesussaves, when he refers to the 'bullshit' it is in fact a common tactic by the IDers. They take a bunch of 'scientists'. I use scientist loosely. These scientists have absolutely no backround or authority in the subject of biology, history, or evolution for that matter. These 'scientists' go on to tell the general public there's a huge rift in the scientific community over the validity of the Theory of Evolution and that ID is gaining a lot of ground with legit scientists. No such rift exists, it's just a load of bullshit. Anyone even CLOSE to being worthy of the title Scientist realizes that the amount of evidence for Evolution and the amount of facts piled into it make it an almost infallable argument(give or take some very minor mechanics). The general theory of evolution has stood up to the most rigorous scientific scrutiny and come out unscathed for almost 150 years. The religions(NOT just christianity) if held up in the same scientific light, do NOT stand up. There are too many nhistorical fallacies, too much in the way of natural phenoms that have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be natural and not supernatural as the religions would claim, for these myths to stand up in a modern scientific world. And you know what, if you're that into christianity let's take you back to it's hayday in europe. That's right, when we discover time travel, we can take you back to the dark ages to live out your days! The dark ages, where you can do back breaking labor in muddy fields for no reason other than that progress is contrary to God's will. Where you can go to the middle east and destroy a far more advanced and beautiful civilization in the name of God, well, that and the tons of loot the church and kings will recieve from that(but that's not why they did it, oh no, it was for God). Enjoy your stay in the Dark ages, I hear the Beubonic plague is a real kick with the ladies.
Just cause there have been minor/or Major rifts in the Church doesn't one make me like them at all. and I know that the Church has made mistakes like the crusades ect. but doesn't dictate what the Bible says at all.
your right a real scientist wouldn't allow the possibilitie of God. but even so ID is growing. I've seen the movie they've even said it themselves that Evolution definately says that the earth was evolved with no cause of it evolving.
"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY
That's funny, since the crusades were MUCH more reflective of what the bulk of the bible actually says than the modern "buddy jesus" version of god.