Revelation 3:16

Topher
Topher's picture
Posts: 513
Joined: 2006-09-10
User is offlineOffline
Revelation 3:16

Revelation 3:16

“So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.”

At face value, it can been seen as suggesting you should either believe or don't believe, but don’t part believe i.e. don’t be a moderate.

But what do scholars consider the meaning of this passage is?

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring" -- Carl Sagan


Wishkah311
Theist
Wishkah311's picture
Posts: 159
Joined: 2007-04-21
User is offlineOffline
I am no scholar, but I agree

I am no scholar, but I agree with your stated interpretation.  God wants us to make a decision one way or the other.  Without any actual context, that is how I would interpret it.  But then, the bible is open for so much interpretation,it could mean that he likes peanuts... I guess it would depend on who you talk to.

Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.


NinjaTux
NinjaTux's picture
Posts: 265
Joined: 2007-01-02
User is offlineOffline
I like peanuts...therefore I

I like peanuts...therefore I am god...Mu ha ha...wait no didn't work...damn you all...


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
So atheists go to heaven?

So atheists go to heaven? We'll really be surprised when we wake up there!


NinjaTux
NinjaTux's picture
Posts: 265
Joined: 2007-01-02
User is offlineOffline
and of course that

and of course that translates into "I agree with your stated position"


NinjaTux
NinjaTux's picture
Posts: 265
Joined: 2007-01-02
User is offlineOffline
  MattShizzle wrote: So

 

MattShizzle wrote:
So atheists go to heaven? We'll really be surprised when we wake up there!

 

wait wait wait, now you guys expect me to create a heaven too...this whole supreme being schtick is more work than it should be...is there some kind of supreme being delagatory commitee...I think I'll create one... 

No Gods, Know Peace.


Wishkah311
Theist
Wishkah311's picture
Posts: 159
Joined: 2007-04-21
User is offlineOffline
Of course, putting my head

Of course, putting my head into a whole lot of lions' mouths:

 I think that God is a lot more inclusive than most people give him   credit for.  I think that things change a lot in one persons' lifetime.  I believe that believing in God is important to God, but there are other things too.  Of course, I don't think of Hell in the same way most people do either, so... you know what, nevermind.  Ignore me.

Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.


Topher
Topher's picture
Posts: 513
Joined: 2006-09-10
User is offlineOffline
MattShizzle wrote: So

MattShizzle wrote:
So atheists go to heaven? We'll really be surprised when we wake up there!

Well of course this is why Rev 3:16 can be difficult. It seems god is saying he doesn't want people who have not made their mind up, or he doesn't like moderates, but this would imply he either wans fundies or atheists. And that doesnt seem right lol.

 That said, I remember an interview with a Catholic preist who says the official Catholic doctrine states that people can go to heaven if tey are sincere in their belief, including atheists.

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring" -- Carl Sagan


Mordagar
RRS local affiliateSuperfan
Mordagar's picture
Posts: 128
Joined: 2006-02-22
User is offlineOffline
Wishkah311 wrote: Of

Wishkah311 wrote:

Of course, putting my head into a whole lot of lions' mouths:

I think that God is a lot more inclusive than most people give him credit for. I think that things change a lot in one persons' lifetime. I believe that believing in God is important to God, but there are other things too. Of course, I don't think of Hell in the same way most people do either, so... you know what, nevermind. Ignore me.

 

Not trying to stray off topic, but I find your beliefs interesting. You should create a whole new thread somewhere on here concerning the ins and outs of your belief system. I would enjoy reading that, but I realize that you are probably busy and such a thread would take a a long time to construct. Just a thought.

 

As for the original question, that seems to be the best interpretation (believe or don't, don't sit in the middle) from what I can see. It is true though, one can twist the Bible to suit whatever they would like it to say. If one disagrees, the argument that it is taken out of context seems to be a favorite among the majority. 

"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously." [Albert Einstein, letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946]


Iruka Naminori
atheist
Iruka Naminori's picture
Posts: 1955
Joined: 2006-11-21
User is offlineOffline
Wishkah311 wrote: I

Wishkah311 wrote:

I believe that believing in God is important to God, but there are other things too. 

Wishkah, do believe god is omnimax? Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent, Omnipresent, etc.?  If so, why would he/she/it care whether or not finite beings believed in him/her/it? 

Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


NinjaTux
NinjaTux's picture
Posts: 265
Joined: 2007-01-02
User is offlineOffline
I'll see if I can manage to

I'll see if I can manage to convince her to do that.  I've been wondering the same thing myself.

No Gods, Know Peace.


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
Obligatory Spinal Tap

Obligatory Spinal Tap quote:

Derek Smalls wrote:
We're very lucky in the band in that we have two visionaries, David and Nigel, they're like poets, like Shelley and Byron. They're two distinct types of visionaries, it's like fire and ice, basically. I feel my role in the band is to be somewhere in the middle of that, kind of like lukewarm water.


Ophios
Ophios's picture
Posts: 909
Joined: 2006-09-19
User is offlineOffline
“So, because you are

“So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.”

 

Huh huh huh huh.

I'm so naughty. 

AImboden wrote:
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.


BenfromCanada
atheist
BenfromCanada's picture
Posts: 811
Joined: 2006-08-31
User is offlineOffline
Wishkah311 wrote: I am no

Wishkah311 wrote:
I am no scholar, but I agree with your stated interpretation. God wants us to make a decision one way or the other. Without any actual context, that is how I would interpret it.

It's a letter to one of the 7 churches. Don't ask me which one. Obviously, Jesus thought their commitment was lacking. That said, in this particular part, Jesus had a sword for a tongue, so one has to wonder who would want to be in his mouth at that point. That would be living and dying by the sword at once. 

Wishkah311 wrote:
But then, the bible is open for so much interpretation,it could mean that he likes peanuts... I guess it would depend on who you talk to.
But...peanuts are neither hot nor cold. They're salty and lukewarm. I think, if anything, Jesus HATES peanuts. Perhaps this is an indictment of all peanut growers in the ancient middle east?


Wishkah311
Theist
Wishkah311's picture
Posts: 159
Joined: 2007-04-21
User is offlineOffline
BenfromCanada

BenfromCanada wrote:

But...peanuts are neither hot nor cold. They're salty and lukewarm. I think, if anything, Jesus HATES peanuts. Perhaps this is an indictment of all peanut growers in the ancient middle east?

I do suppose one could make an argument for that. Maybe he's allergic?

Unlike many Christians, I believe the bible has some very good points in it, but is not always the best way to live. One of my favorite moments from the West Wing is when President Bartlett pulls out a bunch of bible verses, applying them to today.

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"

I look at the bible as a good general guide to life, and a book with some really good stories. That is why I can't quote the bible very well. I never read all of it. So much of it didn't make sense that it only confused me more.  I look at the bible as a book written by men, inspired by God.  I find it hard to believe that God really thought women should be obedient to their husbands, instead of having a mutual love and respect for your spouse.  I find it very hard to believe that God is okay with half of what is said and done in his name.  Most people think it is sinful or stupid to ignore my "holy scripture."  But those books were written by man, edited by man, and translated by man.  Then, to top it all off, man goes through and picks and chooses what should be allowed in the Bible.  Why shouldn't I question the validity of the book?  Why shouldn't I pick and choose what I want in my religion?  Everyone else does.  At least I admit it.

Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.


NinjaTux
NinjaTux's picture
Posts: 265
Joined: 2007-01-02
User is offlineOffline
Well, that and bibles aren't

Well, that and bibles aren't quite as good as peanuts when crushed into a paste and spread on bread...just saying...

No Gods, Know Peace.


Topher
Topher's picture
Posts: 513
Joined: 2006-09-10
User is offlineOffline
Wishkah311 wrote: I find it

Wishkah311 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that God really thought women should be obedient to their husbands, instead of having a mutual love and respect for your spouse. I find it very hard to believe that God is okay with half of what is said and done in his name. Most people think it is sinful or stupid to ignore my "holy scripture." But those books were written by man, edited by man, and translated by man. Then, to top it all off, man goes through and picks and chooses what should be allowed in the Bible. Why shouldn't I question the validity of the book? Why shouldn't I pick and choose what I want in my religion? Everyone else does. At least I admit it.

So basically god is a projection of your beliefs, your desires, your morality and so on. I’m glad a theist realises this.

Theists just steal from [secular] morality, then sculpt their religion according to this morality, pretending that is where it originates.

So if you think, for example, that sex before marraige or homosexuality is morally fine, then god doesn't really have a problem with it. But if you think it is sinful, then it becomes god command.

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring" -- Carl Sagan


HealingBlight
HealingBlight's picture
Posts: 256
Joined: 2006-04-13
User is offlineOffline
I think it was hinted at

I think it was hinted at already, but guidelines for when altar boys should swallow?

I contribute so little. Sticking out tongue

But I guess I can play the game and say that there is no time or space or a middle ground, and that you are either with or against, playing both sides warrants rejection.

 

-----------------------
I'll get back to you when I think of something worthwhile to say.


Wishkah311
Theist
Wishkah311's picture
Posts: 159
Joined: 2007-04-21
User is offlineOffline
I guess my reasons for my

I guess my reasons for my belief structure are hinged on this:

I am made in God's own image.  Therefore, since I am open minded and loving to those around me, God must be too.  For example, I believe science is on the way to proving (correct me if I'm wrong) that homosexuality cannot be chosen.  You are either wired to be gay or you're not.  That's how I feel about it.  I didn't make the choice tobe straight.  Why would God punish someone for something he obviously chose to leave in our brains?  That doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me.  God can't be all loving and then be a mean bastard.  That doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me.  If believing the way I do is weird or crazy or whatever, I'm not asking anyone else to believe what I believe.  Because, me and my God are just chill and hang out.  I don't need to stone anyone, I gotta worry about my own well-being and peace of mind.  Now I don't live in the guilt-free happy land or anything.  I still struggle with some choices I have made that do not follow my own belief structure.  We all gotta fail at something... except Spock, but then he's perfect.  All that matters to me is that I am constantly trying to better myself and be supportive to those I care about - and sometimes those I don't care about. But I'm sure you see why I don't talk about my belief much... a lot of people seem to think I'm a little nuts.

Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.


BenfromCanada
atheist
BenfromCanada's picture
Posts: 811
Joined: 2006-08-31
User is offlineOffline
Wishkah311 wrote: I do

Wishkah311 wrote:

I do suppose one could make an argument for that. Maybe he's allergic?

Can't he just transubstantiate himself out of that allergy?

Wishkah311 wrote:

Unlike many Christians, I believe the bible has some very good points in it, but is not always the best way to live. One of my favorite moments from the West Wing is when President Bartlett pulls out a bunch of bible verses, applying them to today.

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"

I look at the bible as a good general guide to life, and a book with some really good stories. That is why I can't quote the bible very well. I never read all of it. So much of it didn't make sense that it only confused me more. I look at the bible as a book written by men, inspired by God. I find it hard to believe that God really thought women should be obedient to their husbands, instead of having a mutual love and respect for your spouse. I find it very hard to believe that God is okay with half of what is said and done in his name. Most people think it is sinful or stupid to ignore my "holy scripture." But those books were written by man, edited by man, and translated by man. Then, to top it all off, man goes through and picks and chooses what should be allowed in the Bible. Why shouldn't I question the validity of the book? Why shouldn't I pick and choose what I want in my religion? Everyone else does. At least I admit it.

That seems to be the trend nowadays, not taking the bible as 100% literal. It's probably the best way to survive in society nowadays.


Krehlic
Krehlic's picture
Posts: 240
Joined: 2006-12-29
User is offlineOffline
Concerning the original

Concerning the original question:

I always took it to be speaking of conviction and devotion, rather than a level of belief or moderation. And I'm pretty sure all those blaspheming moderates are already destined for Hell.

Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?


Topher
Topher's picture
Posts: 513
Joined: 2006-09-10
User is offlineOffline
Wishkah311 wrote:

Wishkah311 wrote:

Why would God punish someone for something he obviously chose to leave in our brains? That doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me. God can't be all loving and then be a mean bastard. That doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me.



Then why would god punish non believers? I, like others, was made to be an atheist. God knows who will believe and who will not believe... he made them that way. Why punish them.

 

See this essay by todangst: http://www.rationalresponders.com/would_you_torture_your_own_children

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring" -- Carl Sagan


Wishkah311
Theist
Wishkah311's picture
Posts: 159
Joined: 2007-04-21
User is offlineOffline
Well, I also don't believe

Well, I also don't believe in Hell in the traditional sense.  I believe that hell's punishments aren't handed down by God.  They are from us.  My Catholic guilt alone is plenty of damnation... let alone the legitimate guilt and all that.  I don't look at Hell as burning and screaming in pain.. I look at it as, basically, eternal loneliness with nothing but my guilt to keep me warm..  So really, I don't think of God as the punisher.  It is our own guilt.  Really, I think that if you live your life well and try to be a good person (whatever that means).  It doesn't matter what you believe in or don't believe in.  I may be wrong, but I don't consider my bf to be "damned" because he is an Atheist.  I think he is a good person, intelligent, gorgeous, and very loving... and manly... very manly... GRRRR... anyhow, I would like to think that if God does exist, then he will welcome all into his heaven.  Buddist, Christian, Atheist, Jewish... it doesn't matter... damnit I am such a freaking hippie at times.  Sorry

Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
Wishkah311 wrote: damnit I

Wishkah311 wrote:
damnit I am such a freaking hippie at times.

But we like you anyway.  Smile


Wishkah311
Theist
Wishkah311's picture
Posts: 159
Joined: 2007-04-21
User is offlineOffline
Susan wrote: Wishkah311

Susan wrote:

Wishkah311 wrote:
damnit I am such a freaking hippie at times.

But we like you anyway. Smile

 

Well, thank you... Smile  

Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.


spaxx
Theist
Posts: 7
Joined: 2007-05-03
User is offlineOffline
The Dogma of Hell is the

The Dogma of Hell is the most terrible truth of our faith. Hell exists.  We are sure of it as of the existence of God. Nothing, in fact, is more clearly revealed than the dogma of hell, and Jesus Christ proclaims it as many as fifteen times in the Gospel. The existence of a hell is in harmony with the immutable notions of justice engraved in the human heart. Revealed to men from the beginning, and conformable to natural reason, this dreadful truth has always been, and is still known, by all nations not plunged by barbarism in complete ignorance. Hell never has been denied by heretics, Jews or Muslims. It is only modern and contemporaneous atheism that outdoes the impiety of all ages by denying the existence of hell.

Millions laugh at, question, or openly deny the reality of hell. But a matter affecting the everlasting destiny of man is not laughable; there is no fun, when the question is of enduring for eternity the punishment of fire. "Which of you," demands the prophet, "can dwell with devouring fire? Which of you shall bear everlasting burnings?" -- Isaiah xxxiii., 54.

Will hell exist any the less, because one does not believe in it? Suppose for a moment, the existence of eternal torments is only probable, and that perhaps there is no hell; I ask any man of sound reason, would he not be the silliest of men who, upon such a "perhaps", should expose himself to the punishment of an everlasting fire?

This is how the Son of God speaks to us of hell:

"If, then, thy hand or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off and cast it from thee; it is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than, having two hands or two feet, be cast into everlasting fire. And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee; it is better for thee, having one eye, to enter into life, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire." -- (Matt. xviii, 7; compare v., 29.)

Natural reason confirms the dogma of hell. An atheist was boasting that he did not believe in hell. Among his hearers, there was a sensible young man, modest, but who thought that he ought to shut the silly speaker's mouth. He put him a single question: "Sir," he said, "the kings of the earth have prisons to punish their refractory subjects; how can God, the King of the Universe, be without a prison for those who outrage His majesty?" The sinner had not a word to answer. The appeal was presented to the light of his own reason, which proclaims that, if kings have prisons, God must have a hell. 

In Revelation 20:10, we read:

"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." This should live no doubt as to to the existence of hell, the nature of the torments therein, and the eternity of it all. 

Many are often ready to except that heaven is eternal, yet they do not so readily except that Hell is like wise eternal which is not only illogical but contrary to the justice of God who rewards all according to their deeds. Further it is not a matter of God loving us or not but whether or not we love Him. Thus by our sins we send ourselves to Hell, since by our sinful life we have already made the choice as to with whom we shall spend eternity.

 


Wishkah311
Theist
Wishkah311's picture
Posts: 159
Joined: 2007-04-21
User is offlineOffline
However, I believe that

However, I believe that part of the bible wasn't written because God wanted it written that way, but because man wanted to keep his little followers in line.  Telling people that it's okay if you screw up because God will forgive you anyway, doesn't keep people in line.  But if you threaten them with fire and brimstone, damnation and torture, then they'll get their act together.  An eternity of burning and pain?  I'll be a good girl.. I won't speak in church or nothin'.  I'll pray I promise!  Just don't damn me!!!

 I just don't think that is necessary.  People will be good or bad depending on what they want to do.  Even damnation is usually not enough to make people be good.  I just don't think of God as some Southern Civil Court Judge with a bad temper and no ability to relate to people.  The bible would put every gay person in Hell (according to some).  I think God is alot more understanding than you let on.  I also think that God doesn't feel the need to watch us burn in fiery torment for an eternity just because we had sex outside of marriage or lied to our parents.  That is ridiculous.

Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.


spaxx
Theist
Posts: 7
Joined: 2007-05-03
User is offlineOffline
Think about it for a moment

Think about it for a moment first. Hell is a subject not spoken of frequently in these days, but God does not give each generation a new set of doctrines or a new bible. Further, it is important for us to reflect on this truth in order to realize how grave sin is. Is it a comfortable subject? No. But who said that everything in Religion is meant to be comforting?

A salutary fear of damnation is necessary in order for us to avoid sin (Mark 9:43). How many saints are now in Heaven because they meditated on the awful truth of Hell? We can be sure that there are quite a few.

In the end, we shall either go to Heaven or to Hell (Rev. 20:12-15). The choice is ours, we make that choice by our own actions. If we chose to live according to our wishes ignoring the will of The Lord our God, then we shall reap what we sow in this life and also in the next. Let us then briefly consider the nature of Hell. 

Hell is eternal (Matt. 25:41). And what will it be like?

Think of all the diseases in the world; those that affect the eyes, the teeth, the chest, the neck. To all these diseases of the body add the mental torments of Hell: despair, gloom, sadness, hatred...

And to these continuos torments, add the lack of sympathy from others. No-one will care, everyone in Hell will be full of hatred for the others. Not a moment of comfort. There is no rest, there is no sleep... every moment is an agony from which there is no escape - the worst of torments; and this for eternity. St. Anthony Mary Claret writes:

"The sensation of pain in hell is essentially very dreadful. Picture yourself, my soul, on a dark night on the summit of a high mountain. Beneath you is a deep valley, and the earth opens so that with your gaze you can see hell in the cavity of it. Picture it as a prison situated in the center of the earth, many leagues down, all full of fire, hemmed in so impenetrably that for all eternity not even the smoke can escape.

In this prison the damned are packed so tightly one on the other like bricks in a kiln....Consider the quality of the fire in which they burn. First, the fire is all-extensive and tortures the whole body and the whole soul. A damned person lies in hell forever in the same spot which he was assigned by divine justice, without being able to move, as a prisoner in stocks. The fire in which he is totally enveloped, as a fish in water, burns around him, on his left, his right, above and below (Mt 18:Cool. His head, his breast, his shoulders, his arms, his hands, and his feet are all penetrated with fire, so that he completely resembles a glowing hot piece of iron which has just been withdrawn from an oven. The roof beneath which the damned person dwells is fire; the food he takes is fire; the drink he tastes is fire; the air he breathes is fire; whatever he sees and touches is all fire (Mark 9:42).

But this fire is not merely outside him; it also passes within the condemned person. It penetrates his brain, his teeth, his tongue, his throat, his liver, his lungs, his bowels, his belly his heart, his veins, his nerves, his bones, even to the marrow, and even his blood... A most terrible thing about hell is its duration (Mat 3:12) . The condemned person loses God and loses Him for all eternity. Now, what is eternity? Eternity never ends. This is the truth that has made even the great saints tremble. It is an essential misfortune of hell that everything will be without relief, without remedy, without interruption, without end, eternal."

The pain of loss, the consequence of final impenitence, consists in an immense void which will never be filled, in an eternal contradiction which is the fruit of the hatred of God, in despair, in perpetual remorse without repentance, in hate of one's neighbor, in envy, in a grudge against God which is expressed by blasphemy.

Perpetual remorse comes from the voice of conscience, which repeats that they refused to listen while there was yet time. They cannot indeed erase from their mind the first principles of the moral order, a distinction between good and evil. But conscience recalls sin after sin: "I was hungry, and you gave Me not to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me not to drink."

Eternally rebellious against everything, they long for annihilation, not in itself, but as cessation of suffering. In this sense Jesus says of Judas: "It were better for him if that man had not been born."

No sin shall be without its punishment. The evil men do must be atoned for either in this world by penance or in the world to come in purgatory or hell, according as the sin that stains the soul, and is not repented of, is mortal or venial, and merits eternal or temporal punishment.

This is the Truth that most would prefer to deny to their eternal detriment. Better to assent to the truth and seek how to avoid ending up in that most unfortunate place called Hell. It is only in sincerely seeking the means to avoiding this terrible place that God will manifest His mercy, the mercy everybody loves to take for granted.

 

 


HumanisticJones
HumanisticJones's picture
Posts: 159
Joined: 2007-02-07
User is offlineOffline
spaxx wrote: Think about

spaxx wrote:

Think about it for a moment first. Hell is a subject not spoken of frequently in these days, but God does not give each generation a new set of doctrines or a new bible. Further, it is important for us to reflect on this truth in order to realize how grave sin is. Is it a comfortable subject? No. But who said that everything in Religion is meant to be comforting?

A salutary fear of damnation is necessary in order for us to avoid sin (Mark 9:43). How many saints are now in Heaven because they meditated on the awful truth of Hell? We can be sure that there are quite a few.

In the end, we shall either go to Heaven or to Hell (Rev. 20:12-15). The choice is ours, we make that choice by our own actions. If we chose to live according to our wishes ignoring the will of The Lord our God, then we shall reap what we sow in this life and also in the next. Let us then briefly consider the nature of Hell.

Hell is eternal (Matt. 25:41). And what will it be like?

Think of all the diseases in the world; those that affect the eyes, the teeth, the chest, the neck. To all these diseases of the body add the mental torments of Hell: despair, gloom, sadness, hatred...

And to these continuos torments, add the lack of sympathy from others. No-one will care, everyone in Hell will be full of hatred for the others. Not a moment of comfort. There is no rest, there is no sleep... every moment is an agony from which there is no escape - the worst of torments; and this for eternity. St. Anthony Mary Claret writes:

"The sensation of pain in hell is essentially very dreadful. Picture yourself, my soul, on a dark night on the summit of a high mountain. Beneath you is a deep valley, and the earth opens so that with your gaze you can see hell in the cavity of it. Picture it as a prison situated in the center of the earth, many leagues down, all full of fire, hemmed in so impenetrably that for all eternity not even the smoke can escape.

In this prison the damned are packed so tightly one on the other like bricks in a kiln....Consider the quality of the fire in which they burn. First, the fire is all-extensive and tortures the whole body and the whole soul. A damned person lies in hell forever in the same spot which he was assigned by divine justice, without being able to move, as a prisoner in stocks. The fire in which he is totally enveloped, as a fish in water, burns around him, on his left, his right, above and below (Mt 18:Cool. His head, his breast, his shoulders, his arms, his hands, and his feet are all penetrated with fire, so that he completely resembles a glowing hot piece of iron which has just been withdrawn from an oven. The roof beneath which the damned person dwells is fire; the food he takes is fire; the drink he tastes is fire; the air he breathes is fire; whatever he sees and touches is all fire (Mark 9:42).

But this fire is not merely outside him; it also passes within the condemned person. It penetrates his brain, his teeth, his tongue, his throat, his liver, his lungs, his bowels, his belly his heart, his veins, his nerves, his bones, even to the marrow, and even his blood... A most terrible thing about hell is its duration (Mat 3:12) . The condemned person loses God and loses Him for all eternity. Now, what is eternity? Eternity never ends. This is the truth that has made even the great saints tremble. It is an essential misfortune of hell that everything will be without relief, without remedy, without interruption, without end, eternal."

The pain of loss, the consequence of final impenitence, consists in an immense void which will never be filled, in an eternal contradiction which is the fruit of the hatred of God, in despair, in perpetual remorse without repentance, in hate of one's neighbor, in envy, in a grudge against God which is expressed by blasphemy.

Perpetual remorse comes from the voice of conscience, which repeats that they refused to listen while there was yet time. They cannot indeed erase from their mind the first principles of the moral order, a distinction between good and evil. But conscience recalls sin after sin: "I was hungry, and you gave Me not to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me not to drink."

Eternally rebellious against everything, they long for annihilation, not in itself, but as cessation of suffering. In this sense Jesus says of Judas: "It were better for him if that man had not been born."

No sin shall be without its punishment. The evil men do must be atoned for either in this world by penance or in the world to come in purgatory or hell, according as the sin that stains the soul, and is not repented of, is mortal or venial, and merits eternal or temporal punishment.

This is the Truth that most would prefer to deny to their eternal detriment. Better to assent to the truth and seek how to avoid ending up in that most unfortunate place called Hell. It is only in sincerely seeking the means to avoiding this terrible place that God will manifest His mercy, the mercy everybody loves to take for granted.

 

 

You give an interesting physical description of hell, however, your description leaves me feeling that you believe my soul is a physical construct.

You talk about organs and nerves and such other things, but I was under the impression that Theists believe that the soul is separate from the physical body.  If this is the case then how does my soul (being tortured in hell) have a brain, teeth, a tongue, a throat, a liver, lungs, bowels, a belly a heart, veins, nerves, bones, marrow, and blood?  These are all things that I've been told get buried in the ground to rot after my soul departs them.

Can you explain how those will matter to me in hell once I am dead and separated from my body? 

The Regular Expressions of Humanistic Jones: Where one software Engineer will show the world that God is nothing more than an undefined pointer.


Ophios
Ophios's picture
Posts: 909
Joined: 2006-09-19
User is offlineOffline
Quote: This is the

Quote:
This is the Truth

 

¬_¬ 


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
I think we have just been

I think we have just been scripturalized.

Spaxx obviously hasn't spent much time perusing the forums.  Otherwise, s/he would realize the bible doesn't carry much weight around here.

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


spaxx
Theist
Posts: 7
Joined: 2007-05-03
User is offlineOffline
HumanisticJones, bse you

HumanisticJones,

bse you show interest and are genuinely interested in knowing these things, I will endeavour to explain.

Immediately after death the particular judgment takes place, in which, by a Divine Sentence of Judgment, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided. The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell, a place or state of eternal punishment inhabited by those rejected by God. 

THERE is in Hell, a double pain the pain of loss and the pain of sense. The pain of loss consists in being deprived for all eternity of the sight of God, who is the Supreme Good, the beatific and for which our souls are made, as our eyes are for the light. It is a moral thirst which torments the soul. The pain of sense, or sensible suffering, is the same as that which we experience in our flesh. God, supplying the want of corporal organs, makes the soul experience such sensations. Pain, is deeper and more acute when it directly
attacks the soul and the mind than when it reaches them only through the medium of the body. The mortal body, and the senses themselves, absorb and intercept a part of the physical, and even of moral pain.

The dammed in hell are torment in many ways as forever will they have imprinted on their memories the results of their sins; forever will they repeat the words ascribed to them in the book of Wisdom : "We have erred from the way of truth, we wearied ourselves in the way of iniquity and destruction and walked through hard ways. What hath pride profited us? 

But to speak of the pain of sense alone, we know what a terrible thing fire is, how feeble so ever the flame which we enkindle in our houses, and what pain is caused by the slightest burn ; how much more terrible must be that fire which is fed neither with wood
nor oil, and which can never be extinguished. Enkindled by the breath of God to be the instrument of His Justice, it seizes upon souls and torments them with incomparable activity. In hell, there will be a fire that cannot be put out, a worm which cannot die, a stench one cannot bear, a darkness one can feel, a scourging by savage hands, with those present despairing of anything good.

 


Wishkah311
Theist
Wishkah311's picture
Posts: 159
Joined: 2007-04-21
User is offlineOffline
spaxx

spaxx wrote:

HumanisticJones,

bse you show interest and are genuinely interested in knowing these things, I will endeavour to explain.

Immediately after death the particular judgment takes place, in which, by a Divine Sentence of Judgment, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided. The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell, a place or state of eternal punishment inhabited by those rejected by God.

THERE is in Hell, a double pain the pain of loss and the pain of sense. The pain of loss consists in being deprived for all eternity of the sight of God, who is the Supreme Good, the beatific and for which our souls are made, as our eyes are for the light. It is a moral thirst which torments the soul. The pain of sense, or sensible suffering, is the same as that which we experience in our flesh. God, supplying the want of corporal organs, makes the soul experience such sensations. Pain, is deeper and more acute when it directly
attacks the soul and the mind than when it reaches them only through the medium of the body. The mortal body, and the senses themselves, absorb and intercept a part of the physical, and even of moral pain.

The dammed in hell are torment in many ways as forever will they have imprinted on their memories the results of their sins; forever will they repeat the words ascribed to them in the book of Wisdom : "We have erred from the way of truth, we wearied ourselves in the way of iniquity and destruction and walked through hard ways. What hath pride profited us?

But to speak of the pain of sense alone, we know what a terrible thing fire is, how feeble so ever the flame which we enkindle in our houses, and what pain is caused by the slightest burn ; how much more terrible must be that fire which is fed neither with wood
nor oil, and which can never be extinguished. Enkindled by the breath of God to be the instrument of His Justice, it seizes upon souls and torments them with incomparable activity. In hell, there will be a fire that cannot be put out, a worm which cannot die, a stench one cannot bear, a darkness one can feel, a scourging by savage hands, with those present despairing of anything good.

Wow... well okay then...  

Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
spaxx

spaxx wrote:

HumanisticJones,

bse you show interest and are genuinely interested in knowing these things, I will endeavour to explain.

Immediately after death the particular judgment takes place, in which, by a Divine Sentence of Judgment, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided. The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell, a place or state of eternal punishment inhabited by those rejected by God.

THERE is in Hell, a double pain the pain of loss and the pain of sense. The pain of loss consists in being deprived for all eternity of the sight of God, who is the Supreme Good, the beatific and for which our souls are made, as our eyes are for the light. It is a moral thirst which torments the soul. The pain of sense, or sensible suffering, is the same as that which we experience in our flesh. God, supplying the want of corporal organs, makes the soul experience such sensations. Pain, is deeper and more acute when it directly
attacks the soul and the mind than when it reaches them only through the medium of the body. The mortal body, and the senses themselves, absorb and intercept a part of the physical, and even of moral pain.

The dammed in hell are torment in many ways as forever will they have imprinted on their memories the results of their sins; forever will they repeat the words ascribed to them in the book of Wisdom : "We have erred from the way of truth, we wearied ourselves in the way of iniquity and destruction and walked through hard ways. What hath pride profited us?

But to speak of the pain of sense alone, we know what a terrible thing fire is, how feeble so ever the flame which we enkindle in our houses, and what pain is caused by the slightest burn ; how much more terrible must be that fire which is fed neither with wood
nor oil, and which can never be extinguished. Enkindled by the breath of God to be the instrument of His Justice, it seizes upon souls and torments them with incomparable activity. In hell, there will be a fire that cannot be put out, a worm which cannot die, a stench one cannot bear, a darkness one can feel, a scourging by savage hands, with those present despairing of anything good.

And you know this for a fact because some person wrote this down somewhere a long, long time ago, somebody else found it and still someone else decided to include it in a book with other people's stories? 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


spaxx
Theist
Posts: 7
Joined: 2007-05-03
User is offlineOffline
This is true, just as what

This is true, just as what we know today was found out by somebody else many years ago. However what am trying to get people to wake up to is the TRUTH that Hell

i - exists

ii - is extremely terrible beyond human imagination

Furthermore the inhabitants of this most horrible place would like all of us who are still alive on earth as well as all future generations to join them in that miserable place of eternal torment. The hatred and envy which they bear to all men compels them to desire their damnation, even their own closest relations. It is not suprising then that the pernicious error that "hell does not exist" is  being widely propagated so that millions may be led to live carelessly and thus end up in hell. The non-existence of hell has been accepted as truth so that men may live as they wish, without licence.

Think of it this way, if hell dont exist, then people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot are in heaven. Now try swallowing that. The only way to avoid this dilema is to also state that heaven dont exist either. In fact denying the existence of hell is already tantamount to denying the existence of God, which is precisely what the Satan is aiming at getting mankind to do. Little wonder that all knowledge of God is being taken away from mankind starting from classrooms in USA and westen Europe. Yes, they are abolishing Crucifixes from classrooms and Kindergartens. They are aiming at the young generations, a Godless generation. Ever wonder about:

i - increasing cases of children murdering their parents

ii - kids commiting mass murders in schools

iii - kids fornicating when they are barely out of the crib?

Let's also think of eternity, which means the abscence of TIME. Eternity in a place of unimaginable suffering and torment renders hell the most unfortunate place to end up. However, the choice of hell becomes one that is deliberate, for GOD condemns no one to hell. Man condemns himself by His rejection of GOD. So lets often think of hell in order to avoid going there.


Jacob Cordingley
SuperfanBronze Member
Jacob Cordingley's picture
Posts: 1484
Joined: 2007-03-18
User is offlineOffline
Spaxx. Evidently you know

Spaxx. Evidently you know your bible, and in order to know anything thoroughly you at least need a bit of intelligence, so let me ask you this... How do you know the bible is true? When it really comes down to asking yourself these things, there is no way you possibly can.

Also, you yourself will have an interpretation of the bible different to other interpretations of the bible, and the authors of the bible, the men who wrote it, would've had a different interpretation to anyone alive today. Now, personally I feel, and many Christians feel that there are things in the bible that are abysmal, details of stonings for minor offences and all sorts of things. If "God" wrote the Bible, then he's a pretty piss-poor ethicist - Harold Shipman (serial killer doctor from in this country) was a better ethicist!!


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Maybe you'll go to the

Maybe you'll go to the Islamic hell for not believing in Allah. Maybe you'll be sent to Antarctica and not enjoy the beer volcano and stripper factory since you didn't believe in the Flying Spaghtti Monster. As one of our members has said, Telling me I'm going to hell when I die is like telling me Santa Claus won't bring me any presents this year.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Jacob Cordingley
SuperfanBronze Member
Jacob Cordingley's picture
Posts: 1484
Joined: 2007-03-18
User is offlineOffline
That's what I keep telling

That's what I keep telling this fundy on the music forum I frequent.


spaxx
Theist
Posts: 7
Joined: 2007-05-03
User is offlineOffline
Jacob, permit me in the

Jacob, permit me in the first place to make some corrections here. What i post on this forum is not my own interpretation but the teachings of the catholic church, which is the one and only true church founded by our Lord Jesus Christ. 

That the bible is true cannot be doubted bse it is the word of God and God cannot lie. This is called faith. To have faith means to give our full consent to God's word (the Bible) and all that He teaches. The Bible did not suddenly appear upon the earth through the instrumentality of angel, but it was written by men like ourselves who used a pen or reed and wrote on parchment in the languages of the time such as hebrew, greek, and latin. The Bible is not a single book but a number of books written at different times by different men. These men were truly divinely inspired, as indicated in the consistency of their writings. There is simply no way each could have intrepreted things his own way and still say the same thing.

It is however reserved to modern times, especially to our own days, to dispute and deny the truth of the Bible handed down to us by the ancients. What cannot be disputed however is the fact that the bible is indeed a complicated and difficult book to grasp;men have devoted their lives to the study of the Gospels, preparing themselves for the task by profound research in the Hebrew, Syrian, Arabic, Greek, and Latin languages. And even then, many passages are most difficult to understand. However , personal interpretation (as advocated by protestants) is expressly ruled out. We know this from 2 Peter 1:20 which says:

  "Understanding that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation". 

And in 2  Pet. 3:16 he says:

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. "

Surely, there had to be a means to propagate the teachings of Christ to simple minded men. It is for this reason that our Lord Jesus Christ instituted the Catholic Church which He commissioned to teach all nations. The Catholic Church rejoices in the special assistance of the Holy Spirit, and the priest has the help of her defined doctrines and the constant Catholic tradition as a safeguard. What the catholic church always defined as sin remains sin for all eternity. Hence Her unshakable stand on issues such as sodomy, homosexual unions, abortion etc. And just as Jesus was hated for speaking the truth so is the catholic church hated today for standing by that same truth; moreover Jesus did foretell this in Luke 21:17 :

"because of me you will be hated."

Also Matthew 10:22 :

"Everyone will hate you because you are committed to me. But the person who patiently endures to the end will be saved."

 


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
"The Bible is Bullshit." -

"The Bible is Bullshit." - Corporate Avenger

Quoting the Bible at atheists doesn't help your case one bit. We consider it a book of fiction and most of us don't believe Jebus ever existed.

 

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


spaxx
Theist
Posts: 7
Joined: 2007-05-03
User is offlineOffline
It may not help much but it

It may not help much but it just might pluck one soul that cared to listen, from the edge of the abyss.


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Sorry, souls don't exist

Sorry, souls don't exist either, nor does the Abyss (unless you're talking about the 1980s movie.) Consciousness is impossible without a brain/ nervous system. All you are going to accomplish is having us laugh at you.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
OK.   I'll reword my

OK.   I'll reword my question because it sounds like you'll believe whatever the catholic church tells you to believe:

And you know the catholic church knows this for a fact because some person wrote this down somewhere a long, long time ago, somebody else found it and still someone else decided to include it in a book with other people's stories?

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


HumanisticJones
HumanisticJones's picture
Posts: 159
Joined: 2007-02-07
User is offlineOffline
spaxx wrote: The pain of

spaxx wrote:
The pain of sense, or sensible suffering, is the same as that which we experience in our flesh. God, supplying the want of corporal organs, makes the soul experience such sensations. Pain, is deeper and more acute when it directly attacks the soul and the mind than when it reaches them only through the medium of the body. The mortal body, and the senses themselves, absorb and intercept a part of the physical, and even of moral pain.

 

Ah yes, but your description clearly states that "It penetrates his brain, his teeth, his tongue, his throat, his liver, his lungs, his bowels, his belly his heart, his veins, his nerves, his bones, even to the marrow, and even his blood..."  The description you have now given to answer my question contradicts this by responding that God makes up for the lack of those parts by burning our souls.  Now I looked into those verses that you placed in the descriptors and found that they did not mention anything about burning my organs, nor did they mention anything about hell except for the fire.

Now give the current state of this discussion I have more questions.  Feel free to address them individually.

1) Given the prior description, how would this fire affect my organs if my soul is parted from them.

2) As I am not well versed in the locations of all biblical verses, but that I am aware that the only true things about the world from the perspective of Christians are contained within said book, where in the bible is the description of said organ or soul burning hell? 

3) Is the soul a critical component to the motor-response action to pain.

4) If the soul does infact burn in hell, what kind of combustion reaction takes place for the soul (rapid, slow, complete, incomplete, turbulent, smouldering .

5) Given the soul does burn in hell this implies that there is a large supply of oxygen in hell.  Is hell a closed system that recieves no extra material or is there an external source of oxygen beign supplied to the flame?

6) What is the enthalpy of combustion for the soul?

7) What are the oxidization products of the soul? 

The Regular Expressions of Humanistic Jones: Where one software Engineer will show the world that God is nothing more than an undefined pointer.


PillarMyArse
PillarMyArse's picture
Posts: 65
Joined: 2007-03-13
User is offlineOffline
Quote: Surely, there had

Quote:

Surely, there had to be a means to propagate the teachings of Christ to simple minded men. It is for this reason that our Lord Jesus Christ instituted the Catholic Church which He commissioned to teach all nations. The Catholic Church rejoices in the special assistance of the Holy Spirit, and the priest has the help of her defined doctrines and the constant Catholic tradition as a safeguard. What the catholic church always defined as sin remains sin for all eternity. Hence Her unshakable stand on issues such as sodomy, homosexual unions, abortion etc. And just as Jesus was hated for speaking the truth so is the catholic church hated today for standing by that same truth; moreover Jesus did foretell this in Luke 21:17 :

"because of me you will be hated."

 

There exists something in the real world, which you examine from time to time but never enter, called a puppet.  Every puppet has a master.  The master sticks his/her hand up the bottom of the puppet and makes it say whatever he/she wants.

My friend, the pope is your puppet master. 

Religion is the ultimate con-job. It cons the conned, and it cons the conner.

Mr.T : "I ain't gettin' on no damn plane [sic]" - environmentalism at it's best


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Isn't that sodomy? LOL!!!!

Isn't that sodomy? LOL!!!! The Catholic Church is hated by rational people because of it's hateful and idiotic stances. Oh yeah, and for the priests buggering little boys!

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Ophios
Ophios's picture
Posts: 909
Joined: 2006-09-19
User is offlineOffline
Quote: "because of me you

Quote:
"because of me you will be hated."

Oh, wow, such a hard prediction. 

 

I wonder spaxx, If I just start quoting other holy books, will you change your mind?

Of course as an after thought, I'd like to make the prediction that atheists will be hated, becuase they know THE TRUTH (TM)!!!!1! 

AImboden wrote:
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.


Jacob Cordingley
SuperfanBronze Member
Jacob Cordingley's picture
Posts: 1484
Joined: 2007-03-18
User is offlineOffline
spaxx wrote: Jacob, permit

spaxx wrote:

Jacob, permit me in the first place to make some corrections here. What i post on this forum is not my own interpretation but the teachings of the catholic church, which is the one and only true church founded by our Lord Jesus Christ. 

Jesus didn't create the catholic church, the Romans did, hence why it is based in Rome and not in Jerusalem.

spaxx wrote:
That the bible is true cannot be doubted bse it is the word of God and God cannot lie. This is called faith. To have faith means to give our full consent to God's word (the Bible) and all that He teaches. The Bible did not suddenly appear upon the earth through the instrumentality of angel, but it was written by men like ourselves who used a pen or reed and wrote on parchment in the languages of the time such as hebrew, greek, and latin. The Bible is not a single book but a number of books written at different times by different men. These men were truly divinely inspired, as indicated in the consistency of their writings. There is simply no way each could have intrepreted things his own way and still say the same thing.

Faith is belief without proof. How do you know God exists? You don't, you believe God exists, which is not the same as knowing. The bible was written by men, and is actually extremely inconsistant. Compare the fire and brimstone of the old testament to the peace-loving hippydom of the new testament. And even despite that, both testaments have vast inconsistencies within themselves.

spaxx wrote:
It is however reserved to modern times, especially to our own days, to dispute and deny the truth of the Bible handed down to us by the ancients.

Bad argument - simply relying on the wisdom of ancient people. Could ancient people build computers, or even generate electricity (except the ancient Babylonians apparantly), or study the world with the vigour and know-how we have today. We are the most advanced generation of human beings ever to exist and we have much more wisdom than some dead guys. 

spaxx wrote:
What cannot be disputed however is the fact that the bible is indeed a complicated and difficult book to grasp;men have devoted their lives to the study of the Gospels, preparing themselves for the task by profound research in the Hebrew, Syrian, Arabic, Greek, and Latin languages. And even then, many passages are most difficult to understand. However , personal interpretation (as advocated by protestants) is expressly ruled out. We know this from 2 Peter 1:20 which says:

  "Understanding that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation". 

And in 2  Pet. 3:16 he says:

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. "

Surely, there had to be a means to propagate the teachings of Christ to simple minded men. It is for this reason that our Lord Jesus Christ instituted the Catholic Church which He commissioned to teach all nations. The Catholic Church rejoices in the special assistance of the Holy Spirit, and the priest has the help of her defined doctrines and the constant Catholic tradition as a safeguard. What the catholic church always defined as sin remains sin for all eternity. Hence Her unshakable stand on issues such as sodomy, homosexual unions, abortion etc. And just as Jesus was hated for speaking the truth so is the catholic church hated today for standing by that same truth; moreover Jesus did foretell this in Luke 21:17 :

"because of me you will be hated."

Also Matthew 10:22 :

"Everyone will hate you because you are committed to me. But the person who patiently endures to the end will be saved."

 

Again, the Catholic Church was created by a Roman Emperor who decided that Christianity would suit the political establishment of the Empire more than their old pagan Gods. You only believe it to be the one true church because you're a member of it. Muslims believe theirs is the one true religion, Flying Spaghetti Monsterists believe theirs is the one true religion, the Westboro Baptist Church believe theirs is the one true church.

As for the bible, it is a complex book, there is no doubt about that, but why does that complexity mean it comes from God? The Lord of the Rings is a complex book, but we know it was written by a bloke called John "Ronald" Tolkien, just as we know the bible was written by men. I could easily say Ronald was divinely inspired and that accounts for his consistency (evidently much more consistant than the bible), but actually he was just massively inspired. Interesting that I'm using the works of a devout Catholic to bring your Catholic arguments down.


Topher
Topher's picture
Posts: 513
Joined: 2006-09-10
User is offlineOffline
Wishkah311 wrote:

Wishkah311 wrote:

Telling people that it's okay if you screw up because God will forgive you anyway, doesn't keep people in line.

 

But isn’t that precisely what Christianity says. Do what you like then ask Jesus for forgivness, and he will.

(There also the slight contradiction that the Bible also says certain people can't enter the kindom of god.)

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring" -- Carl Sagan


Eloise
TheistBronze Member
Eloise's picture
Posts: 1807
Joined: 2007-05-26
User is offlineOffline
Wishkah311 wrote:

Wishkah311 wrote:

Of course, putting my head into a whole lot of lions' mouths:

I think that God is a lot more inclusive than most people give him credit for. I think that things change a lot in one persons' lifetime. I believe that believing in God is important to God, but there are other things too. Of course, I don't think of Hell in the same way most people do either, so... you know what, nevermind. Ignore me.

You're not alone Wishka, even the bible argues your point that God is inclusive (Shepherd running off to find lost lamb), so I never understood the dogma of separatism in churches, myself. And I agree it doesn't make a lick of sense for an all-loving God to also be an elitist bastard at the same time. It's one or the other, surely, and I'm fairly certain if God actually exists he's just not that confused so somebody "down here" has got one of those arse-ways-up.

To the original question, every thought system going is a bit lukewarm in my opinion. You'd need to refer to other things in the bible itself to get what I am on about though, but a simple example would be the statement 'what you do to the least of all my creatures you do to me' says God. Just about everyone is lukewarm about that part, something is always, not great or unworthy in some way, exclusion is a pretty universal dogma, though I am not against the applications of exclusion in the abstract, those are useful, but whenever some living thing is renounced absolutely in some form in some communal system of thought, the approach to this revelation about God is lukewarm. You either permit all life sanctity and reverence or you don't, middle ground is basically that you don't.

But that is also a really harsh thought, as is often the case with analysing the bible, like walking through a minefield with all your ideas about good and evil, if you're actually walking chances are you'll step on a mine and bang there goes your ideas. What follows this thought is that by going to the butcher and buying the legs of ten chickens to eat (ie giving regard only to meat and money), you're being lukewarm to God and you're going to get spat. Doesn't sound fair at all does it? some keen theists stewed it all up and came up with remedies such as halal, or saying grace. Native americans have a corresponding ritual thanksgiving in their culture but they take the reverence for the beast quite a way further. When you get down to it the essence of the thing is reverence for life itself, if you're lukewarm about it, say for example just saying grace and not being interested in the welfare of the living animal prior to eating it, then you're probably in living in the 'church' mindset that this revelation letter would be addressing. That said, reverence for life is probably not the only lukewarm mindset that this letter would be addressing and even if it were there are vast complications in a 6 billion population human society's need for life sustaining food making it seem an unfair ask overall to be anything but lukewarm about it. And moreover, if there's no realistic remedy in the eyes of such a God that 6 billion people could adopt together or if he's not going to offer any help in that regard then he either isn't an all loving God, or he isn't at all and it doesn't matter what the text says.

Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist

www.mathematicianspictures.com


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
spaxx wrote:This is true,

spaxx wrote:
This is true, just as what we know today was found out by somebody else many years ago. However what am trying to get people to wake up to is the TRUTH that Hell
i - exists
ii - is extremely terrible beyond human imagination

That isn't truth. That is assumption. Belief. Faith. Not truth.

spaxx wrote:
Furthermore the inhabitants of this most horrible place would like all of us who are still alive on earth as well as all future generations to join them in that miserable place of eternal torment.

That makes no sense whatsoever. I might be able to understand one or two individuals desiring to have everyone share their negative experiences, but it certainly wouldn't cover the entire historic population of humanity that didn't believe in your god(which far outnumbers the believers, by the way).

spaxx wrote:
The hatred and envy which they bear to all men compels them to desire their damnation, even their own closest relations.

You're spending far too much time in the fantasy section of your local bookstore. But since you like fantasy anyway, I'll recommend R.A. Salvatore's novels in the forgotten realms. Excellent books.

spaxx wrote:
It is not suprising then that the pernicious error that "hell does not exist" is  being widely propagated so that millions may be led to live carelessly and thus end up in hell. The non-existence of hell has been accepted as truth so that men may live as they wish, without licence.

Not even close. The existance of hell was made up by people who wanted others to believe the same things they did. People who wanted to control and suject people to their whims. People who wanted to create the biggest scam in human history. People of the church. Hell is a figment of your imagination. Nothing more.

spaxx wrote:
Think of it this way, if hell dont exist, then people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot are in heaven. Now try swallowing that.

I'd have to believe in heaven first, which is another invention of the theist. The fact is that all three of them are dead and buried. On Earth.

spaxx wrote:
The only way to avoid this dilema is to also state that heaven dont exist either.

Ah, there is a glimmer of logic within you. Very faint, but there all the same.

spaxx wrote:
In fact denying the existence of hell is already tantamount to denying the existence of God, which is precisely what the Satan is aiming at getting mankind to do.

A nice little fairy tail told to the believers to make sense of the fact that people throw out their ridiculous notions.

spaxx wrote:
Little wonder that all knowledge of God is being taken away from mankind starting from classrooms in USA and westen Europe.

The lies of god(s) should never have been introduced into education in the first place.

spaxx wrote:
Yes, they are abolishing Crucifixes from classrooms and Kindergartens.

Should never have been there in the first place. Your religion is a lie.

spaxx wrote:
They are aiming at the young generations, a Godless generation.

About time it came too.

spaxx wrote:
Ever wonder about:
i - increasing cases of children murdering their parents

First you'll have to prove this. The fact of the matter is that information about such situations is just easier to come by in this day and age where talking across 1500 kilometres is no harder than 2 metres.
Then, if you can prove it, you'll have to prove that it's disbelief in god to blame. Which I'll wish you luck for. The nations on this world with the lowest crime and murder rates are god free. Whereas the US, one of the most religious nations on the planet, ranks horrifically in crime and murder statistics.

spaxx wrote:
ii - kids commiting mass murders in schools

Why isn't it happening in godless nations then?

spaxx wrote:
iii - kids fornicating when they are barely out of the crib?

That's happened for all of history. Your beliefs have nothing to do with the natural sex drive of our species.

spaxx wrote:
Let's also think of eternity, which means the abscence of TIME.

That's self contradictory. Eternity is impossible without time.

spaxx wrote:
Eternity in a place of unimaginable suffering and torment renders hell the most unfortunate place to end up.

If, as you propose, hell is without time, then hell isn't that bad. Nothing happens. Nothing will happen. You can't be tortured if nothing is happening you know. And you can't experience it either.

spaxx wrote:
However, the choice of hell becomes one that is deliberate, for GOD condemns no one to hell.

On the contrary. If god exists, and created hell, and created us, and sends us to hell, then god condemns people to hell. It's really very simple. I have no idea why theists attempt to discard simple logic and assume the impossible here.

spaxx wrote:
Man condemns himself by His rejection of GOD. So lets often think of hell in order to avoid going there.

Ridiculous. Man rejects that which doesn't exist. If god exists, let him prove it. Then rejecting him would be irrational, instead of the opposite.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.