Thoughts on the state of "atheist vs. theist"
Offline This is troubling me, and I think it is why I keep coming back here. I am a Christian, therefore, my arguments come from that Christian worldview. Oftentimes I have simply reiterated a Christian point, and then, to my surprise several people attack what I have said, called me a liar, arrogant, rude, prideful, etc. And I’m left wondering, what on earth did I say that incited so much anger? Truth is, I am a caring person who wants to improve and make a positive impact on the world. I love animals, I respect the earth, I think we need to take better care of it. If I’ve harmed someone, I want to make amends, etc. So, I honestly do not understand where your anger comes from. Is it simply because I don't agree with you?
Taking my Christianity out of the equation, I am a person, I have opinions, I feel strongly about my opinions because they have been formed from decades of searching, thinking, turning things over in my mind. I am no different than you, in that respect. It just so happens that you came to different conclusions than me. But, I can tell, you feel equally strongly about your beliefs and feel I would be better off if I were atheist. You know that I feel you would have a richer experience in this life if you believed in God, not necessarily even the Christian God. So, tho our opinions are different, the way we are approach each other is really not so different. In light of that, what I do not understand is why we cannot converse like adults, hear each other’s view points, accept that we are both attempting to influence the other side with those view points, and let go of all the meanness and personal put downs?
I don’t know who here is American, but what I see happening in this country and throughout the world is deeply troubling. There is a divide growing between the secular and religious communities, and the two need to come back to the center and start communicating better in order to make some honest compromises. We have to live in this world together. You are never going to eradicate the worship of God, I am never going to get everyone to see the need to worship God. Most likely, you are not going to deconvert me, nor am I going to convert you. So, can we, instead start listening, and refrain from judging others ideas as stupid, baseless, juvenile?
Also, I do not feel the “delusional” label you have placed on theists is going to get us anywhere positive. I can just as easily call you delusional. The fact is, you are not in my brain, I am not in yours. You have not had my experiences, I have not had yours. So, you can no more honestly judge me delusional than I can judge you.
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Offline I'm not special because I believe in God, I'm special because that's his opinion, and we are all equal in that respect because he honors all his children equally. Which means, you an I are on even playing ground, from my point of view.
See? You will never gain a foothold here, because we we actually know this stuff. And we will never convince you because you see your god through a lense with petrolium jelly smeared on it, producing an indistinct, warm and fuzzy image that looks too sweet ever to do all those awful things he actually brags that he has done and will do forever.
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Offline I would have posted Friday but 138 posts was too much for me to look through then. I was looking through them all but figured I'd just stop when I got to this:
Currently you do not recognize a need in yourself for God, so obviously you are going to conclude that he is not there.
So you only believe in god because you are emotionally dependant on having someone powerful and capable watching over you. At least it's been put down rationally.
Might as well continue with the response to my last post now.
So, if I am remembering correctly, this would be utilitarianism? If I am also remembering correctly, the possible pitfall of this philosophy is the chance for a person or institution to justify evil acts because they help the greater humanity.
I would say that's a possible pitfall of any morality. Unless you're going to tell me that you wouldn't kill someone to save 5 billion others. If someone held a button that would destroy the world(obviously as close to impossible as we're going to get, but fits for the question), and the only way to stop them from destroying the world and all the hundreds of trillions of life forms on the world was to kill the person holding the button, would you kill them? Or would you effectively commit mass murder and suicide by letting the person press the button, when you could have stopped him? Now obviously this is an extreme example, but I needed one to illustrate my point properly.
Just for comparison's sake, I look to Jesus for my morality. When he was asked "What is the greatest commandment" he gave a two part answer, 1) love God with all your heart, 2) love your neighbor as yourself. The second part is pretty much the golden rule, however, he entwines the golden rule with the commandment to love God. I believe this is to protect against the possible damage that can occur in the purely utilitarian approach. The idea is that one must understand the moral character of God so that when one goes on to make decisions the common good, they are in line with God's character (i.e., devoid of evil).
Then why are there so many people who believe in a god(even yours) yet do things I and the majority of western civilization say are evil? It's obviously not a defense at all. In fact, because of the nature of religion to band like minded individuals together, it increases the risk of collateral damage. Instead of one person making an error, you have hundreds or thousands or millions. Compounding that error exponentially.
I think this can be applied to some of the misunderstandings/disagreements regarding stem cell research. A Christian is more likely to mull over a scientific advancement as he/she parses out the possible positives and negatives of that advancement. Given the pros and the cons, they ask themselves, tho this may help the greater good, is it acceptible to God, Is it evil? So, what you perceive as Christians dragging their feet is actually them trying to determine what is going to be best for humanity in the long run. Christians want to help humanity, but not at the risk of introducing a potentially greater evil into the world that could actually lead to greater human suffering.
Where is the evil in pulling something out of the trash can to save lives? There's no logic in the suggestion. The cures for most or all diseases and defects could be sitting in the dump instead of working towards it's potential in labs.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Wow! Excellent summary!!
I certainly feel this drama has been on broadway longer than "Cats".
This is like nailing fucking jello to a tree, ya think you got it till it slips off again.
No Gods, Know Peace.
I just learned it is inappropriate to use btw in a forum. I figured since certain people are passing around useless knowledge that no one wants to hear, I'd jump right in.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Very good Jane!
Pariah: I bet you brought your teacher a shiny new apple everyday in school...such a quick learner...
No Gods, Know Peace.
Well, so much for omnipotence I guess. You know your own bible says that he can, right?
No, you were dispensing medical advice. That's why I yelled at you. That kind of thing can get you (or the owner of whatever forum you're posting on) into serious trouble. And whining about your age isn't going to win you any points. If you're old enough to dish it out, you're old enough to take it. And how the hell am I supposed to know how old you are if you didn't give that information in your profile? Unlike you, I can't ask my omnipotent, invisible shoulder pixie to divine the information for me. (My shoulder pixie is green with a yellow head and has a rather limited vocabulary...but least he's not invisible.) Also, I could accuse you of sassing your elders. It cuts both ways.
As for the RRS forum, it is not a support forum and doesn't have to behave like one. I mostly don't tell my deepest, darkest secrets here because 1) it's inappropriate and 2) I've learned it's not a very bright thing to do on an Internet forum. Yes, I've touched on a few things, but if you look back on this very thread, observe that you used that information as ammunition, first to try to tell me how I can get all fixed up, then to assault my character. Let your own behavior be a lesson to you.
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jce, that was fucking brilliant. I only got as far as the words "Act I" before I erupted into belly laughter. This thread is better than a soap opera.
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Um, I sure hope Sugarfree wasn't stating she was the minor, because I have a sneaking suspicion that might be a lie.
She wrote this:
It wasn't. That was an entirely different issue. My husband and I are getting ready to have children and we have been attending church regularly for the past several years. Those two things have caused us to feel it necessary to omit certain words or phrases from our vocabulary. "What the hell," is a phrase I wouldn't use anymore. Now that I've omitted these phrases and words, now when I hear them, they really rub me the wrong way...and cause me to turn the other way. If you want to know what I'm talking about, give them up for a year...it resensitizes you to them and makes you realize they aren't necessary in regular conversation. I'm not perfect. I still say stuff I shouldn't when I'm really angry (usually at my husband), but, I am making a continuing effort.
And this:
\ sugarfreePosts: 347Joined: 2007-03-15BGH wrote: sugarfreeBGH wrote:sugarfree wrote:See you in the next life. Doesn't exist...If it did I am sure we would not be in the same place, THANK DOG! If you take what I am going to say here as a matter of pride, so be it. Never in my life have I been treated as rudely and disrepectfully as I have on this site. And that is no whine. That is the cold hard truth based on 3 decades of experience. If this is your humanist morality in action, I feel it is ineffective in many areas. Now, as I do not wish to sin on your account any longer, I must refrain from speaking to you again.
Sorry - I had to cut and paste, my computer is wonky.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Perhaps she meant mentally. But I think you're right, I've never seen her claim to he a minor [Edit: until now], and I seem to recall her saying things contrary to being one.
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
Maybe she meant miner, like a coal miner. That's it, she is a coal miner that inhaled too much sulfur gas.
"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."
Oh, of course, a miner!! How silly of me to think that Sugarfree might be lying to get a sympathy vote!
If god takes life he's an indian giver
I don't recall "yelling" at anyone else, minor or otherwise. I suppose I could get pretty upset with someone trying to re-infect me with the faith virus, but I'm trying to remain calmer now that I've built up an immunity.
So:
I have no idea what she meant, but that's becoming par for the course.
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Wow, look at this paragraph I found in an article by Chris Hedges, who just happens to be a moderate Christian:
"Rules are incorporated slowly and deliberately into the convert's belief system. These include blind obedience to church leaders, the teaching of an exclusive, spiritual elitism that demonizes all other ways of being and believing, and a persecution complex that keeps followers mobilized and distrustful of outsiders. The result is the destruction of old communities, old friendships and the independent ability to make moral choices. Believers are soon encased in the church community. They are taught to emphasize personal experience rather than reasoning, and to reject the reality-based world. For those who defy the system, who walk away, there is a collective banishment [emphasis mine]."
The Secret of the Christian Right's Recruiting Tactics
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So, my apology is on the table if you wish to accept it. Best wishes on your continued and sustained healing. Okay. That's really it.
Is it really? If so, might I ask why? I never knew such things existed....
Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.
I posted a thread called 'This is probably a stupid question but...' . You'll have to check it out, I don't remember everything else. I just was trying to figure out how some things work around here. But apparently, there really is such a thing as a stupid question!! LOL.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Wow. That describes sugarfree perfectly as far as I can tell. In fact, it explains a lot about the fundie approach that makes sense, including a small church/cult I was briefly involved in just before becoming an atheist. Bookmarked; Thanks for the link, Iruka.
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
I accept your apology.
That's part of the problem. I have noticed that religionists tend to think they know what's best for others and push it in others' faces. It's considered politically incorrect for us to call them on their bullshit, but we're working to change that.
What concerns me is that religionists lose their sense of what is and what is not appropriate because of what they are taught: Christ died for our sins and anyone who does not accept him is going to hell. That puts religionists in the possession of a special relationship and special knowledge (or so they think). They regard anyone else's opinions / way of life as unacceptable. Judging by your behavior, you've completely lost your moral compass while simultaneously believing you've found the only moral compass that matters. It's mind-boggling to those of us who are not part of the Christian cult. It's mind-boggling to me, even though I used to be exactly where you are now. While watching your behavior, I've had a lot of flashbacks of my own nastiness in response to gay people and assorted forms of "unsaved trash." I thought I was so moral. I had the answer, so I didn't need to listen. Where I was then, you are now.
I didn't yell, but I did express my distaste. And that fourteen-year-old kid had no business proselytizing door-to-door. His parents should be ashamed. I told my fundy mother and even she thought sending kids to proselytize was out of line. Anyone who proselytizes at my door is going to get an earful. If they dish it out, they can take it. Just remember who bothered whom.
If you come to an atheist site, you should expect criticism. And if god really is on your side, you should also be able to handle it without, say, wishing Mattshizzle and NinjaTux end up in hell. The immorality of the Christian worldview was defined by your moments of weakness. Consider that you were behaving just like your god. Consider that if your god really is omnipotent and omniscient, he could have figured out a way to keep everyone out of hell. Your desire to see Matt and Ninja in hell reminded me so much of that vile creature YHWH in the Old Testament. If you believe Christian doctrine, the only logical conclusion is that god really does want people to go to hell...and apparently, in moments of weakness, so do his followers.
I forgive you for crossing the line with me, but I think you owe quite a few others some serious apologies and perhaps a promise to sincerely consider the consequences of your Christian worldview of hell...what your slip says about you, but more importantly, what it says about your god.
"For good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
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So, someone has probably already said it, but, it's pretty obvious I don't belong here... You can move me to Trollville now!!!
Apology accepted. I've just gone back and re-read all my posts to you in this thread, and I've come to a conclusion. I'm just no that funny online. I'd be willing to bet that most of what you thought I was saying as an insult was actually an attempt (keyword) at humor. Well, up to the point that you and Iruka had y'alls mini-Hiroshima moment. After that I was my natural asshole self. I make no apologies for myself in that regard.
I started thinking about this thread and came to the conclusion that you are now more like us thatn you realize. Over the last few days you have experienced what anyone of us experiences on a daily basis. We can hide it for self-preservation, but alot of us actively chose to be honest with ourselvses and others. Honestly, you would probably be better suited to discuss/debate on the site now. Since you paid the cost of learning the lessons, you might as well get to use them.
I always believe in giving people second, third, fourth...not infinite...but a lot of chances. i don't see anything to forgive or forget. It got heated and words were spoken. So, what's the price of tea in china these days.....
No Gods, Know Peace.