The knowledge of history is disappearing in the education of our youth of today.

 

Here's a glimpse here down in the piece: http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/Notes%20Greeececoherenc.htm

 

 

The tie to their children was strong, and the community set high store by the honor owed by sons and daughters to their parents.

Male homosexuality is frequently pictured on Athenian vases and mentioned in literature.

Socially acceptable was "boy love," a homosexual relationship between a mature man and a young boy just before the youth attained puberty.

This relationship was viewed as pedagogicala rite of initiation into adult society.

Like initiation rites in general, it contained a strong element of humiliation.

Adult male homosexuality and homosexual prostitution, however, were not socially acceptable.

Such relationships were looked upon as "contrary to nature," and the Athenian government issued stringent legal prohibitions against them.

That's it? That's all you got? Some random website by some unpublished guy that cites no references or sources, whatsoever? That's what you call proof? Are you kidding?

A website with no credentials listed, broken links to nowhere and a university graphic that doesn't even link to the university? A place where they endorse another random website that:

"investigates, researches and reports on the most shocking stories of our time: conspiracies, UFOs, and other very important stuff."?

You want me to take you seriously? You're kidding, right?

And these lies you spewed?

THOSE LIES?

There is NOTHING in your pathetic website that even mentions any of the LIES you spewed, WHATSOEVER. He doesn't say any of those LIES at all. NONE of your LIES are there, so I don't even know why you would use that as some sort of justification for the LIES you keep telling.

 

In fact, what you just copied and pasted here is the only mention of homosexuality in his whole 700 word, 6th grade project. I've had 5th grade students who have written more on Greek civilization WITH references than that.

Pathtic. It's embarassing that you would even consider using that as some kind of credible source.

Oh yeah, the Greeks hated homosexuality sooo much and that's why they spent all that time and effort (and resource) to celebrate and dipict it through the arts, scupture and literature, right?

Don't make me laugh.

Stop with your lies, otherwise you'll be known as a liar.

It's sick.

You seem to be evidence of that.

Now stop with your lying. It's sick.

Actually the Ancient Greeks were endorsers of homosexuality, particularly the Spartans. In fact homosexuality was such a part of the Spartan military culture (all boys and men from the age of 7 went to the army all girls and women did go to fitness camps of some sort - both promoted homosexuality) that when a man came to marry a woman (the only kind of marraige allowed) that women would very often wear fake beards in bed.

As for Darwinian natural selection, yes indeed homosexuality is a mistake in that sense, homosexuals cannot reproduce. But as for the act/ existence of homosexuality, what is morally wrong with it. Darwinism does not endorse Social Darwinism, this is simply because we have developed conscience and morality through evolution - we consider such things as genocide to be wrong. The act of homosexuality can take place between two consenting adults as with heterosexuality, what is wrong with that? No one gets hurt. The act of homosexuality could also be rape as with heterosexuality, both are wrong, someone gets harmed. As long as no one is harmed then why should anything be immoral? Sexual consent is a key issue no matter what sexuality someone is, but in any sexuality (bar paedophilia) consent can be given freely, it is only immoral when consent is not given, violation is a form of harm. Any act of paedophilia cannot be done consentingly (unless of course the act is with a person who looks like a child but is in fact above the age of consent (16 in this country, 18 in the US(?)) as the child cannot understand, would be caused extreme psychological damage and could be easily coerced into such an act. Children cannot give free consent to adults to violate them.

Aaaaaarrrrgh! For some reason, my reply didn't show up. I'll try again later. It was kind of a long one...and I'm too frustrated to write it over again.

What book isn't written with the authors agenda at the heart of it?

Also, you end with the creepy proclamamtion of recruitment of children. If "taught" about human sexuality in the education environment, without indoctrination methods about sexual acts here and there, one would "learn" that human sexuality is set on a path "by nature" of being male and female.

It is not the Christians or the anti-GLBT crowd that is mis-using the scientific method.

Children are children and should not be taught sexuality by political activists. We know all about the morality of politicians.

 

why? because it is "different." "different" people are often disapproved of. what's your point? that it's okay to discriminate if it's popular? does that apply to racism as well or just homosexuality?

 

can you show me the evidence of homosexuality being weighed? to me, all i can see is a knee-jerk reaction to something being different, no logic, no reason, just emotion. so please show me the legitimate reasons why we should disapprove of homosexuality.

 

how are we going backwards in our societal norms?

 

 

men can orgasm through stimulation of the prostate via the rectum. seems like a connection between the rectum and sex to me. what kind of connection were you looking for?

 

sorry to break it to you, but we're already a minority. and i don't find my arguments to be hysterical or based on personal feelings. i believe i have presented my argument, at least for gay marriage, in this very thread if you'd like to go back and look at them. and my arguments are shared by most homosexual rights groups so far as i know. so please point out how our arguments are nothing but hysteria and personal feelings?

 

 

what's the reason? just because it has a reason doesn't mean it's a good reason. doesn't mean it's a reason that justifies denying rights to people. racism is also popular and has been throughout human history. sure there's a reason for that too. does that make it a good thing? does that make it justified for one race to deny rights to another? just because there must be a "reason" for racism?

 

btw, homosexuality is becoming less and less repugnant to people in "todays" world. 

 

 

how so? in what way is our thinking lacking when we engage in the behavior?

 

how does it show this? and what is it that is wrong with the individual? many heterosexual people pursue an "empty" form of sexuality (if by "empty" you mean not producing children). there something wrong with them to? and should we declare their marriages null and void? or somehow outlaw these forms of sexuality?

 

 

you'll have to go into more detail on this for me. i know of no homosexuals who "recruit." how do we do this? do we try to catch people coming out of the mall like Marine recruiters or something? do we offer them gifts if they'll joing our ranks? and what specifically is the decption involved in the spread of homosexual educational information?

 

 

show me the inherent emotionalism in the homosexual argument. and show me how your physiological and biological argument is superior and justifies discrimination. you're just making a lot of statements with no substance.  

Free thinking,

This is a joke right?:

I"ndeed. Why do you people have so much haterd? Why do you hate other human beings? Tell me. Tell me why you hate so much and make people (and espeiclaly kids) feel shitty with your LIES. If you stop with the LIES then maybe the world could be a better place."

Umm, teaching that sperm is somehow redesigned by natural causes to be placed in the throat or rectum (or in latex protective devices) just because a person possesses the thoughts to do so, is teaching an irrational and unreasonable myth where biolgy and physiology (science) should be taught.

That would be where you would find a lie being taught instead of truth.

See you later (so to speak.)

BTW, why do ALL free thinkers have to think exactly the same on all things? Makes "freethinker" an oxymoron to me

 

 i've never seen that being taught. what i do see being taught is that we find homosexual behavior in numerous species besides the human species, thereby disproving the (mainly) theist claim that it is "unnatural." if it exists in nature, it is natural. i don't find this to be a particuarly weighty argument for any other purpose besides refuting the "unnatural" claim. i don't really care if it's natural or not. natural does not equal moral. nor does unnatural equal immoral. homosexuality isn't optimal for spreading genes, no, but who cares? the heterosexuals are doing a fine job of getting their genes out there (too fine a job in fact). and with the advent of artificial insemination (OMFG, it's UNNATURAL!!!!) we queers aren't doing a bad job either. i'm missing your point here. who cares? what does it matter if it's natural or unnatural? 

 

 

 

freethinkers don't think exactly the same on all things. a lot of free thinkers have come to common conclusions on certain topics, because those conclusions are logical, fair and just. just because a group may share certain opinions doesn't mean they came to accept those opinions with no thought or non-free thought.

****sshhhh, nothing in reality but... i'm trying to make the point that it's them that keeps bringing these images up and perverting love with sex.... it's them that is obsessed with sex... and not gay people as they accuse of being....*****

 

ah, okay *wink* i was getting worried about you there.

 

 

Yeah mine disappeared too.

 

nah, i don't like having to do your homework. if you can't provide me with the substance to back up your claims, don't make them. and certainly don't expect me to search for it.

 

 

no, i have never wondered what an natural process thinks about something. mostly because i don't go anthropomorphizing natural processesses. that's like asking me if i wonder about what gravity thinks of airplanes (or evolution for that matter, since evolution didn't see fit to grant us the biological ability to fly).

 

 

then don't be a homosexual. not sure how that's a problem. is someone trying to make you queer? and i'm still not very clear on your point. you seem to be all over the place.

 

 

so what? we share quite a few behaviors with "unreasoning beasts." what's your point?

 

 

 

how does it prove that?

 

 

not sure what "alpha males" have to do with humans. our social structure is not the same as that of wolves.

 

 

 

what dogma? can you please enlighten me as to what exactly the dogma of Darwin and evolution is please?

 

 

you have very odd views on Mr. Darwin and evolution. you seem to expect us to view evolution as a god that we must obey. you certainly anthropomorphize the hell out of it. it's not alive. it can make no denouncements. and what Mr. Darwin thought of homosexual parenting means nothing. evolution is not a dictator to which we feel we must bow to the wishes of. it's simply a natural process. always has been. and humans as a species often go against evolution. not just queers.

 

and by your logic, neither does taking our sick children to the doctor. we should simply let them be. if they are strong enough, they will survive and produce strong offspring. if not, they will die. and their weak genes with them.

 

who cares?

uh huh. who cares?

 

 

 

it is? how so?

 

uh huh. yes, it is. so what? there are quite a number of things that deviate from the norm. quite a few of them nobody cares about. why care about this deviation? it causes no harm.

 

 

not sure how you come to the conclusion that an animal would die out if it didn't oppose homosexuality. care to clarify? and evolution is only "heartless" because it isn't a living thing, it doesn't have emotion. you don't have to anthropomorphize it into something capable of thoughts and feelings and desires. it has none of those. and, yes, it is phobic and bigoted to oppose homosexuality. here's why. a phobia is an irrational fear of something. people may well be fearful of homosexuality because of some kind of instict. that doesn't make the fear in any way rational. instinct isn't rational. it isn't rooted in reason. there is no rational reason to fear homosexuality. thus, any fear of homosexuality, while it may be instinctual, is still a phobia. and bigotry is an intolerance to what is different from oneself. and this is what people who oppose homosexuality are displaying. so, yeah, it's bigoted. bigotry is most likely biologically rooted, but that doesn't make it rational either. or moral. like i said before, racism is most likely biologically based, but that doesn't make it moral either. i find it odd that you made the comment "It is you comparing humans and their behavior to unreasoning beasts" as if it was something bad. because that's exactly what you're doing here. except you seem to be expecting humans not to be able to rise above the level of "unreasoning beasts," while i do. we are not slaves to our instincts. we can reason. and it is that reason that leads us to go against instincts that do harm to others. but you seem to want us to coddle those who wish to remain "unreasonable beasts" in this area.

 

 

you have yet to show why freethinkers would do so. we are under no obligation to "obey" evolution. it is not a creed. it is a process. our logic leads us to realize there is no harm done by homosexuality, but more harm is done by making homosexuals socially inferior. just as we once did in regards to race. by your logic, we should support racism as well.

 

Juvenile Narcissist,

Your nickname couldn't be any more accurate to the way I see this subject.

You go on and on and it boils down to an ignorance of graet porportions:

Because "they" demand that all of society follow the dictates of evolutionary politics. Ever gone to school?

You would be hard pressed to prove that. Try to teach any other knind of morality than "anything goes" in our public schools (where we are educated) and you'll get Darwinian absolutism that makes religion pale in comparison. Evolution is now the religion of the non-godian political and social movement.

[quote} Our logic leads us to realize there is no harm done by homosexuality

Experince around gays and lesbians and transgendered and and Bi's? More than you would ever believe. I don't really recall much homoerotic ideation though. Just a bit of kink when I was running around without morals.

I know the gay community very well. I had to run for my life on several occasions from unscrupulous gay men. Be that as it may, there are lots of bad people in this world. But the gay culture and community promotes and encourages debauchery. Remember the gay-movement came about from a bar that supported youth prostitution at a NY gay bar.

I have very, very, close friends who are homosexuals and they do not disagree. It is of course only when they got older that the truth was admitted to. I am after all from a Bay Area enclave that flies the rainbow flag.

My views now are those of logic and reason to oppose the teaching of homosexuality to our youth in schools. I couldn't care less how an individual adult wants to live their life, but in regards to the GLBT culture and community, it is taking no prisoners. You either accept their position or you get attacked in many ways.

I will now take a stand.

For example "Lesbiansim." A woman pederast named Sappho that had sexual feelings (or interactions) with her female students is now what we call women homosexuals by. I find that cause for concern.

"Gay?" "Homosexuality?" The behavior used to be called "pederasty." I find that cause for concern. History, experience and empiricism, and not ignorance or emotionalism guide my views "now."

Ask me any question you would like.

I did reply to this a few days ago but it appears to have gone missing

Why was racism approved of in the past? Why was the subjugation of women approved of? Your argument is simply appeal to tradition here. If I wanted I would write about the ancient Greeks who were not against homosexuality but that again would be appeal to tradition. My own arguments will be below.

Let me ask you a personal question. Do you masturbate? No, seriously it's an important question. If yes then why are hands ok but not rectums or throats? If no, do you deny the scientific evidence that regular ejaculation is important in preventing testicular cancer and violent mood swings due to too much testosterone? 

Prove it's empty! Gay couples can be just as in love with each other as straight couples, their relationships mean just as much to them as straight couples. How then is it empty? I have gay and lesbian friends in loving caring relationships. There are empty gay relationships, there are also empty heterosexual relationships. Prove it's empty!

But the recruitment and deception of religion is okay? Again this is just conspiracy theory. "Oh the evil satanic gays are out to turn people from heterosexuality!" Haha! This couldn't be further from the truth. People and animals have been homosexual for millions of years. Hell there were probably homosexual dinosaurs. Homosexuality is natural, it cannot be helped either in many cases. I go out on Canal Street (the Manchester gay district) a fair bit, but it doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to be gay, that I'll be raped or I'll be turned suddenly from a straight bloke into a gay bloke, that they'll recruit me for their evil satanic rituals! What liberal values are about is allowing people to be who they want to be, not only this but to be who they really are!

How does homosexuality harm anyone? If an act of homosexual sex is conducted safely between two consenting adults then who does it harm? Society? What right do others have to control people's sex lives? You wouldn't want somebody telling you you must only do missionary and making sure that you do! That would be against your liberties. Both partners in a homosexual act will get a lot of pleasure (apparantly getting done in the bum'ole is very nice, I've never done it myself, but there is a male g-spot near the prostate gland, stick a pencil up there yourself and have a see, go on I dare you), both partners will, in a relationship be putting emotion into the act as heterosexual couples do.

You may then bring up the argument that sex is just for procreation? Well then, do you never use a condom? The result of the last Pope telling people in Africa not to use condoms was the spread of of HIV/AIDS. Well now that does harm people. Also sex is pleasurable, and more sex does not lead to infertility in men or women, also with more practice it can become more enjoyable.

As for your point on physiology, it proves nothing. Yes homosexuality, oral sex, masturbation (?) might be considered to be not the purpose of our sexual organs that evolution "intended" (intended is so not the right word) but they make people happy, they give people enjoyment both meaningless and meaningful not do they jeopardise procreation in the long run. Indeed too much procreation leads to overpopulation. The biblical laws on homosexuality were written at a time when population was important, and infant mortality was much higher, they couldn't afford to have men and men in relationships, they needed men to be fathers and women to be mothers so they could have a bigger population to fight wars.

How does homosexuality harm anyone? You might say it harms the men in the eyes of God. Why should it make God mad if they commit the act? That is if there is a God at all!

You watch too much Faux News then.  The whole marriage thing is about the rights that are confered to the spouses when the liscense is signed, not the 'sanctity of marriage'.  Does the fact that I married my wife on the beach without a minister or priest invalidate my marriage?  No.  We got married for legal reasons, not religious ones. 

How is asking to have the same rights as everyone else intolerant?

For some reason my last post appears to me very long but blank. The post box just stretches down my screen. I hope my reply to nonbobblehead is availiable.

nonboblehead, didn't I ask you to stop lying and sentence you to a lifetime of education? like of and education of everything else but the bible?

 

Yahoo News

Mon May 21, 12:03 PM ET

LONDON (AFP) - A pair of gay flamingos have adopted an abandoned chick, becoming parents after being together for six years, a British conservation organisation said Monday.

Carlos and Fernando had been desperate to start a family, even chasing other flamingos from their nests to take over their eggs at the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust (WWT) in Slimbridge near Bristol.

But their egg-sitting prowess made them the top choice for taking an unhatched egg under their wings when one of the Greater Flamingo nests was abandoned.

The couple, together for six years, can feed chicks by producing milk in their throats.

"Fernando and Carlos are a same sex couple who have been known to steal other flamingos' eggs by chasing them off their nest because they wanted to rear them themselves," said WWT spokeswoman Jane Waghorn.

"They were rather good at sitting on eggs and hatching them so last week, when a nest was abandoned, it seemed like a good idea to make them surrogate parents."

Gay flamingos are not uncommon, she added.

"If there aren't enough females or they don't hit it off with them, they will pair off with other males," she said.

Proof it's just about pair-bonding and bringing up the young ones and not about sex. It's wonderful. Or how about this for proof? abc news

Cheney's Daughter Gives Birth to Son

Vice President's Lesbian Daughter Welcomes Samuel David Cheney

Vice President Dick Cheney and his wife, Lynne Cheney, welcomed their sixth grandchild, Samuel David Cheney, Wednesday, May 23, 2007. He weighed 8 lbs., 6 oz and was born at 9:46 a.m. at Sibley Hospital in Washington, D.C. His parents are the Cheneys' daughter Mary, and her partner, Heather Poe. (David Bohrer/White House Photo)

 

 

***

Pairbonding (companionship and love) and rearing kids (supporting each other for monumental task at hand)... and the right to do so... gay people deserve those rights just as much as anyone else does.

 

 

J-Nar:

 Sex with love seperates us from unreasoning animlas. But please note that animal sex is for offspring exclusively. I'll await the Bonobo analogy with eager anticipation.

 J-N: