Brian's Crass Statement (trolling in A vs T)
Offline Kudos to Brian for the statement I heard him make on the radio show. Something like, "if you put a bunch of people in a cave from birth, they would learn to adapt and survive." HA!! A bunch of people from birth huh? They wont just die of starvation, they'll survive and teach themselves, 1 to 2 years later how to hunt and eat. Riggghhht. So I’m assuming you believe the first creature was a baby? Or ape? Or baby ape? Or a grown man? And as it formed over billions of years, a Philly cheese steak formed itself as well, right into the human or apes hand, and when it was old enough, it taught itself to take a bite. I don’t really get too much into the non-sense, so excuse my lack of knowledge in the single cell organism facts that have been produced. I don’t know about you guys, but I do know that its a fact, that if I was to leave my babies in a cave, they would die. They wouldn't get older and learn to adapt, that’s just insane thinking, so which one will it be, are you insincere, or are you insane? It can only be one or the other. You guys no science extremely better then me, so you should know that the body cannot survive years, without any food or water whatsoever, maybe not even months, let alone the billions of years your claiming it did. So what was this creature doing at first? It just adapted and taught itself to eat after years? Was it male or female? Or both? Did it mate with itself, or did another, opposite gender suddenly form as well? Was it a sperm first? Or a man? Or was it a woman, laying next to a sperm in a test tube? And figured out what to do with it. You guys speak of using logic, well, logic tells you that you have to teach your kids morals, and how to function. My parents did that, and my parents parents taught them that. So logic would tell me that even the first human would have had to have someone teach him. Unless your telling me that you have had no parents, and no help from anyone since you were born. Studies must show that if you leave a baby right at birth, to fend for itself, it'll make it just fine.
Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.
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Make all the arguments you want, but don't post personal information. This is a warning.
I'm almost certain that you've taken a very specific example completely out of context. That being said, you could have contained your entire argument in two or three sentences. What compels you to ramble so?
COME TO THE DARK SIDE -- WE HAVE COOKIES
Maybe you could tell us the show and context you heard this in because this quote just reaks of being pulled out of context.
Regardless, I have read documented stories of abandoned children ( 5-8) that learn to adapt and survive in the wilderness and are actually incapable of human interaction when they are found.
Even your straw-man version of evolution begs the question for special creation. Your argument is like, "You don't stick sewing needles into your taint?! Well, gosh, what kind of needles do you stick there?!"
You fail.
IT WAS HYPERBOLE
LOOK THE WORD "HYPERBOLE" UP IN A BOOK CALLED DICTIONARY
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Not every single one, but there are basic traits that are natural to us just like there are traits that are natural to all creatures.
Huh? Where did you get that from?
Are you saying that nobody knows how to even eat until they're taught? Surely not.
Huh? Where did you get that from? Where did he say they had no access to anything including water? Maybe you're assuming that they're stuck in this cave, the cave is all there is and they cannot get to any other resources? If that's the case, you're making a very large and very incorrect assumption.
Your parents had to teach you every function of your life? They had to teach you how to chew food? They had to teach you how to breathe? They had to teach you how to move your limbs? No wonder you're so lacking in logic or any form of clue.
All creatures have natural instincts which they follow to survive. This includes movement, breathing, eating, urges to reproduce, inquisitive to test out objects for food viability. Whether they're an animal like a turtle (whose parents abandon once the eggs are layed), or a mammal like a kangaroo (whose mother doesn't teach it to climb out of the womb and in to a pouch, but it does that quite happily anyway), or even insects (whose parents also abandon). We are creatures too, it's just that we have a cognitive ability which has become greater than our natural instincts to a point it renders them near obsolete.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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umm, don't abandon our children in a cave,
Got it , god taught me, that's what I AM ....
Atheism Books.
Ok, well I misunderstood. Brian(sorry for giving personal info) made the statement on Laura's radio show that if you take a bunch of people from birth and put them into a cave, they would adapt and learn to depend on each other.
The lady said that kids between 5-8 or so, have been known to have adapted and survived just fine, but other humans were unable to communicate with them. So if this was the case from the first, then suddenly they all started speaking thousands of different languages? Or did the ones approaching them, teach them? and who taught them? Or they taught themselves, then taught them.
And my parents taught me how to function, like, use the bathroom, and feed myself. Those are not things that were just automatic. Just like you learning how to spell.
My question was simple, what happen? You speak of animals and insects who have such traits, but we are talking about humans, who dont have such traits. You must've breast fed yourself.
What will happen to a child abandoned at birth? Seems to me that the animals and insects were taught different then humans. Keyword: TAUGHT.
Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.
Reformed Theology Resource: www.monergism.com
Yeah -- we're supposed to believe that human instincts gave rise to an inclination to develop sophisticated social nuances over a long period of time? That's stupid. Everyone knows a space monster taught Adam and Eve how to build monorails and computers two hundred years ago.
Google "feral children." Keep in mind there's a lot of mythology out there but I am sure there are at least a dozen well documented cases.
Humans first made up a language among themselves, passing it on to the offspring, and it became more and more complex. As tribes grew and split apart, the language gradually became different. At first what you would consider different accents, then like a different group of the same type of language. Like Germanic languages (English, German, etc.) and Romance languages (Italian, Spanish, etc.) and so on. Eventually becoming as different as Mandarin Chinese to Swahili.
Using a porcealin toilet is not natural. I'm pretty sure you peed and defecated without any instruction. They just taught you where you need to put all that waste in today's society. Also spelling (I.E. the Written Word) is an artificial construct of humanity. Just like the toilet.
Non-human animals and insects know how to use a toilet? Do they know how to wipe their ass with Charmin?
Humans, because of our large brains, are born exceedingly fragile and need a very long time of protection and guidence. Most animals and insects are born to defend themselves.
Herbivores are born and ready to run from predators within a few short hours. It takes months for a human baby to even learn to roll over. Our long development is unique to humans and cannot be compared anywhere as close as 99.999% of all other creatures on Earth. The closest to compare is our closest cousins, the other great apes like gorillas, chimps, bonobos, and orangutans.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
I recently addressed one of Beatz arguments. As you can see, they're not exactly worth my time.
Here is the thread where I took some time.
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One day God might make you a Christian, it'll the funniest day of my life.
One day God might make you an Atheist, it'll be a rather unimportant and meaningless event in my life.
That'll be shortly after God gets around to existing.
"One day," meaning hypothetically in the future, meaning not in this discussion: meaning you resign yourself to the impotence of your own arguments.
What a vacuous cunt.
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And, it should be noted (before Beatz seizes on you saying we shouldn't be compared to 99.999% of all other creatures
), that human frailty as a newborn, along with the incredibly (and dangerously) slow process of maturation is not something that just happened. It likely developed right alongside our evolutionary ancestors' increasingly complex social structure. Chimpanzees, for example, which split off from our branch (or we from theirs) of the Family tree only about 4-6 million years ago, hit puberty around age 7, and start giving birth as young as 11. So please, don't think that the fragility of human infants marks some kind of hard demarkation from animals. It just means that it's something we've been developing for a while.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Tarpan had to laugh at your witty, droll response. Ha ha, priceless !
You know beatz every time you talk on this forum it becomes more and more obvious how clueless you are. If you want too appear as if you are somewhat intelligent(I am guessing you are a redneck with an IQ 0f 30 or lower though.)atleast have the facts and question us as we are quite well educated but when you show arrogance on your OP well...
1. makes you a bad Christian.
2.makes me question your point of being here.
3. shows your ignorance to what you preach as we are being respectful towards you.
So I wonder do people desicate on you? or are you only mad because your little book failed you? so you dont know what to do because you never learned to think for yourself. If you did at somepoint say something Intelligent(doubtful) I didn't read because your OP's tend to lack maturity and the mental capacity to have any real interest in iteracting with yo.
If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..
Slayne, the man made a dumb statement. Hyperbole, analogy, whatever, it was just outright dumb. I say dumb things, and I just admit it. You say dumb things, and assume since you went to school, its okay to continue along in it because hey, its what I learned from my history and science books, must be right. and my bible never fails me, might fail you and the rest of the atheist, not me though.
Anyway, if you have no interest in interacting, dont. I do have a question though, whether you want to answer or not is cool. Where are the other accidental earths with creatures, and beings? Or did the universe decide to stop big bangs after this one? Sorry, Are you assuming the position of the big bang? Did the sun and the moon, position themselves? And then the seasons all came into sync alas as well? What was the first human? How did it survive so long without food or water? Was it a grown man or woman, or baby?
Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.
Reformed Theology Resource: www.monergism.com
We have no other planets around us that are capable of supporting life. It is a heavily accepted idea that there are likely other planets with life on it, but the conditions for life as we know it to begin are fairly specific. I don't think that it is unlikely that we will find other planets that have life (I believe just recently they discovered a planet that they believe may be able to support life), but our space travel ability has been very very limited to far. We haven't even made it to mars yet, it may be awhile before we get out of our galaxy.
The universe decide to stop big bangs? You may want to do some reading on this point. The big bang was the start of the universe, there was just one that we know of.
Assuming the position of the big bang? No, no one is assuming anything.
Did the sun and the mooon position themselves? No, there are extensive explainations as to why things are positioned the way they are.
As for the seasons, what makes you think taht the seasons are ideal? Do you realize that the seasons are differnet in different places on the planet? Did you know that some places see very very long periods with no sun at all and then just as long periods with sun all the time? The seasons were setup and named by men as a way of describing the weather changes.
What was the first human? I think that question answers itself. It was a human.
How did it survive? It had parents that were essentially human. It's parents raised it as it would have not appeared any different, or perhaps minorly different. THey would have fed it and took after it, and it would have mated with something that was also essentially human. It would have taken many generations for human as we currently know it to have totally consumed the population.
Was it a grown man / woman / baby? It was a baby when it was born. It then grew up into either a man or a woman.
I appreciate your questions, I honestly just wished that you cared about the answers. I know that you are likely just going to reject the answers and claim your bible so it really makes me wonder why you cared to waste your time and my time to ask and have me answer questions that you don't care about the answers to. If you are quite content in your deluded little world why do you come here? You're not going to convince anyone here with your obvious lack of knowledge on rather simplistic issues.
Don't worry Tarpan, some people care about what they are forced to face here. Your post has a chance of not going to waste on deaf ears.
Oh and Beatz, if I may recommend something that may not sit well with you...Consider reading the first four chapters of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Those chapters are not abrasively anti-religious and focus more on the atheist position itself. It should definitely help your perspective of the atheist position more generally and provide you with a common ground at which to begin discussion from.
If you don't like the idea of buying or even checking out the book from a library, for fear of what your family or friends of the religious persuasion may wonder about you, (as unfortunately I myself considered as a risk before reading the book) then consider just plopping down on the floor of your local bookstore, leaning against the wall, and reading the first four chapters.
Good luck and know that the people on this forum mean well, even if they may push your buttons.
The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller
Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat
Hey Beatz I must say I second exactly how Tarpan said it, infact I dont think I could have answered them much better given the lack of effort I would have put in to justify to someone that much like Helen Keller hears no reason and sees no reason.
Wow, actually it just occured to me that this is a great opener for discussion. so if Helen Keller is deaf and blind... could she understand or have a belief in God,let alone know the concept of the sign of God if she infact learned the signing? would reason appeal to her? if so how did she conceptualize it? Did Helen Keller form thought that may be out of the realms of all our perceptions (atheist+theist alike)?
these are also things we do not fully understand, however there is no way to understand them for sure so we can speculate much like you claim a God as that is your Reality or lack of. So in retrospect Helen Keller may claim us both to be wrong as god nor science is a concept to her reality.
funny how a little insult can open new perspectives isnt it?
If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..
Ok Tarpan, what I meant by what was the first human, i was asking, what? like male or female. Basically, i'm asking, what was the first life form? Are you saying animal, or human? If animal, where did it come from? If human where did it come from? What caused the big bang? Ok, so i'm not talking about the parents of the human, i'm talking about the first, male, female, or mix? I talked to a guy before who was telling me about a single cell organism. If thats the case, where did that come from? And why did it develop over time into a life form?
Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.
Reformed Theology Resource: www.monergism.com
Dude, jread, i'm a grown man. You were saying it like I was in high school and I had to protect my popularity because the year book balots just went out. But I did wanna ask you, are you agnostic?
Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.
Reformed Theology Resource: www.monergism.com
First lifeform and first human are very different questions...first lifeform, I don't know. Single cell organisms is a likely case and we do path the evolutionairy chain back to them.
As for where it came from you have to understand that Evolution does not try to answer this question. The origins of life is not a question to ask in regards to evolution.
I'd love to answer the question, but I cannot claim to know much about the subject. If you're honestly curious I'd suggest reading up on abiogensis.
As for why did it develop into life forms, Natural Selection is the answer. There is no "why" when talking about the natural workings of evolution, "how" would be more appropriate. And the transition into life forms would have been an extremely slow one that took many many generations.
I will admit that the specifics of the transition I am not an expert on. I am far from an evolutionairy biologist.
But I do have to ask you, are you curious because you want to know? You seem firmly set in your belief structure and I fear that even responding to you is a waste of my time. I haven't had an impression that you are anything more than a troll so far, I hope that you'll be able to demonstrate that I am wrong and perhaps show that you are truly interested in the subject and would like to know.
If you are, I recommend picking up books on the subject of evolution and abiogensis and then ask your questions regarding specific things that you don't understand.
What up Slayne. I think she lived to be like 90, and even got a degree of some sort, and wrote books. As you already know, we theist believe that your born with the knowledge of a higher power programmed inside of you. I'm sure this had to come up within her 90 years. Do you think God would be wrong to put her in hell?
Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.
Reformed Theology Resource: www.monergism.com
I think God would be wrong to put anyone or anything in Hell since he apparently knew before the start of time itself that they would be destined to go to Hell and would not be able to avoid it.
The thought that creates things for the sole purpose to torture them I find simply appalling and I am amazed that anyone can support such a thing.
I find the God of Christianity that sentances people to Hell to be a truly horrifying and demented creature.
Okay after some research on the topic you got me there but lets look at the earlier part of her life, before all the knowlege, so hey I admit a mistake no problem but I guess it was more hypo thetecal as to be trapped in nothing but your own mind. speaking of which it is an idiotic notion to believe you are born with a prefound knowlege of god. if that were true then wouldnt we all believe in god... man, just for the sake of your moronic trolling I ask you thic.
do you have any logic to back up your claim? and if so can you explain why we dont understand god if you just claimed we are wired to know him?
As much as I dislike you I think not even you should go too hell nevermind helen keller.
There is no hell anyways.
If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..
If we all are born with a pre-formed knowledge of god, why didn't he/she/it go one step further and give us all knowledge of the same god? When did he/she/it start doing this - before or after that Jesus fellow? Do those born into the cultures of all three of the major religions derived from the old testament receive the same pre-formed knowledge? Or is it the same up to point and then diverges? What about pagans?
And this is somehow easier to accept than the scientific evidence in support of evolution?
Hellen Keller was an atheist, by the way.
Darn! I almost made it. This post was only going to be questions.
I'm still a newbie in this forums, but from what I have read so far, everyone here are quite fond of asking for evidence when assertions such as this are claimed, soooo, where's your evidence of this built-in, pre-programed knowledge of god?
And before you answer, as I can foresee one posible "evidence" you might present, please look up the term "Animism" as it is employed in Jean Piaget's Developmental Psychology. Here's a little, little something to baby step you into it: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/developmental_psychology/61828
And, if it's pre-programed, can it be replaced? Or is it like Windows Vista, which would rather self-destruct the whole machine before letting you replace it for something better?
Lenore, The Cute Little Dead Girl. Twice as good as Jesus.
Wired by God, eh... a dumb concept as even the Documentary "Jesus Camp" shows that that is not true as they have to torture Children into understanding the concept let alone the Biblical concepts of him.
Beatz, I see you falling on any sort of illogicality you can to defend your beliefs but I see nothing that has any sort of logic. As we are the most religious country in the world but most other peaceful countries are heavily Atheis/agnostic.
So, If we are wired, why is it Atheism is occuring... if you can back your claims without Idiocracy I would hear them?
However again you claims are fanatic andignorant as you have shown you cannot argue them at all yet you are silly enough to continue strawman and add homs.
If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..
If someone stuck a gun to my head and forced me to believe in a Satan, I would call him Bill Gates for allowing such an evil program to be written and distributed.
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Thank you for proving my point I was getting at through my line of questioning.
See I already had my answers philosophically developed.
So Beatz there you go we are not prewired to know nor understand your God or any irrational concept of a deity.
If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..
Yes, we believe all people are born with the knowledge of a higher power. Atheist are produced due to skeptism. Some people just have more trust then others. You guys are more so in the boat of, "I want God Himself, in Person, in my face so I can see Him, in order to believe He exist." Gotta dip your toe in the pool before you dive in type. And thats ok, but that is one reason why God had to elect unto salvation.
He wouldnt be right if He were to base it off your faith, some people go in gun-ho, while others have to test the water. People come from too many different cultural backgrounds. How would you expect a person who has grown up in Judaism, to except Christ just because your telling Him to do so? He's been raised to believe that Jesus was a heretic, and to stay away from, and not conversate with anyone mentioning Him, so essentially, thats not justice on Gods part to base it on your faith from hearing the gospel message a couple times. As oppose to a person growing up in a Christian household, with two believing parents, it'll be a little easier for that child to believe.
Well it goes the same with works. Everyone has a different background, this person grew up in a foster home, while another grew up with Bill Gates as his dad. Of course the latter will have an easy time getting works done. No problem presented there, but what about the person who grows up in the slums, with a violent surrounding, and is forced to adapt to his climate? You see thats not right either, one person has it a bit easier, they can do charitable deeds, feed the poor, contribute to society, etc... While the other has to sell drugs, and carry a gun just to make sure he can eat.
So slayne. My question for you is, how should God judge a sinner? Should He judge humans? Or should He just give them timeouts? God told Adam not to eat from the tree, and He said he would die if he did. Adam ate from it, so how should God judge him? How should God judge humanity?
Every human being is born, that God may be glorified. On one hand you have the reprobate, in whom God is glorified by the sovereignty He has over him. It's Gods creature, and He has the right to blind him, to make him an atheist, whatever He wants to do, He does it. On the other hand, He is glorified of the miraculous change that is made in a sinners life, no doubt some of you reading this will experience this, and in return, glorify God.
Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.
Reformed Theology Resource: www.monergism.com
Does somebody have a good "face-palm" photo? i could really use one right now...
Heehehe. Careful though, if you're using vista, the CIA is surely watching: http://www.bloggernews.net/1307
And "Beatz-him-himself-and-god", I'm still waiting on that evidence. Not platitude, thank you, but evidence.
Lenore, The Cute Little Dead Girl. Twice as good as Jesus.
1. If people were born with a knowledge of a higher power, why do churches exist? Why gather together and learn about a higher power you already know about? Why indoctrinate people to the innate?
2. Why should God judge sinners at all? If he judges by breaking the rules set forth in the Bible, he's as guilty as we are (perhaps moreso).
Or is he just so petulant that he'll willingly torch those who disagree with him instead of proving himself?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Because even if I have inate knowledge of something, I must still learn how to cummunicate and share that knowledge. The language of theism is not inate, even if the knowledge of god is.
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But they don't sell it as "learning about their religion". They sell it as "learning about God".
If such knowledge is innate, shouldn't communicating it be equally so? I mean, if you know something (as opposed to a sincere belief), shouldn't you be able to articulate it to those who ask for proof?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I suppose this is going down a road that will end up fruitless since inate knowledge seems a lot like Platonic forms and that line of reasoning takes us nowhere new. But one possiblity is that this inate knowledge of god is different for each individual and that it is incumbent upon believers to communicate their knowledge for the enlightenment of the community. This is not unreasonable if you consider that each of us has a finite mind and god is usually conceptualized as infinite.
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Makes sense to me (even if I don't agree with it). I just get tired of those who claim that the Judeo-Christian God is the one we're all born knowing.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Now this guy is making statements as silly as those that Brian made (had he actually made them). Does he honestly think that he would have not known how to eat without being taught?
It would be funny to you if I became a Christian and had committed an unforgivable sin of epic proportions? It would be funny to you if someone realized they were wrong, and came to "know" Christ, and had no chance of attaining heaven?
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At least you would know WHY you were in hell.
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Did you just say that people growing up poor in the inner cities can't be good? Did you completely forget the old woman who gave pennies to the temple, and yet was held in higher regard by Christ than the rich man who gave more, because those pennies were all she had?
Good job directly contradicting Jesus Christ there, dude. That's right up there with ignoring the Parable of the Sheeps and the Goats, which you also do, which directly states that yes, you will be judged solely on the basis of works. But of course, that doesn't fit with your doctrine of 'I am Teh Speshul. Even if I start killing babies, I r savded!'
This'd be the apple that God forced Adam to eat by not allowing Adam to choose not to eat it? Follow the trail of breadcrumbs, Beatz, your theology eventually works out to the idea that all of humanity is, at best, just God suffering from multiple personality disorder, and at worst, puppets on our strings, still not taking any action of our own. If we cannot act independent of the Will of God, then we are not responsible for our actions. So let God judge himself however he wants. Let him torment himself for a thousand years and then utterly obliterate himself if he wants. Your God is a liar and a charlatan, playing with marionettes and telling them they're real boys.
So your God creates an entire universe just to make himself feel important. If you're lucky, he'll make you stroke his ego. If you're not, he'll pull his own pud and get off on being cruel and torturing creatures that can't resist, can't fight back...
If there is a God, which I still have no reason to believe, then for your sake I hope he is a merciful one, and not your spiteful and sadistic masturbator. The one you describe is a vicious, petty being that needs to be spanked and sent to bed without supper.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Then the only thing I could call your claimed being is a self centered selfish prick. Pick up your babble and actually read it without your rose colored glasses on and stop being a cheerleader for once.
"Gorify god" listen to that? You worship authoritarian dictitoral rule. I am so glad the founders didnt want to live under another king like you seem to suggest we should under your fictional super hero.
But not only is this claimed "god" character self centered and selfish, the character is written in the babble as being tyranical and torturing and murdering and or allowing for such under his watch to any oposition to him.
The "god" character is a bully and a tyrant and throws a fit when he cant or wont arrange his army men(puppets as you call us) the way he wants.
My problem isnt that this is fiction, I am glad such an insecure megelomaniac brat doesnt exist. Unfortunatly for me, people like you have their heads so far up their asses that they cant see what they worship.
No, you cherry pick the warm fuzzy parts and ignore the dark side of that book. I dont have a problem with your fictional god, I have a problem with indoctrinated people like you spewing your lies.
Your fictional super hero condones infanticide and genocide even commits mass murder himself. I'm glad such an evil being doesnt exist. But again, unfortunatly people like you go around insisting such a being does exist.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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