Atheist just as bad as Christians!

Beatz
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Atheist just as bad as Christians!

Its funny how hypocritical you guys are, you say Christians are like terrorist, putting the fear of hell in people to make them believe in a God that doesn't exist.  While you do the same thing by putting the fear of no God into people, no hope for any afterlife, no hope of moral bliss, no hope of a better place after death, just nothingness.  All the pain and hurt you went through in life for no reason at all.  All the time you spent on earth, just to die. 

 

Atheist spend all their time in their empty lifestyle of work and partying, drugs and sex, book writing, web-site making, rational responding, etc.. A materialistic endeavor, a futile campaign of work and play, an endless drought of high life or low, ridding the world of people awaiting a blessed hope, who die trying to encourage others that there is something better after this terrible place.  The whole of population is already in agreement with you guys, maybe not as irrational as making the absurd statement, that lacks absolute surety that there is "No God."  What is your motive?  The world would be a better place if all 6 billion people didn't believe in anything at all?  If people just went on in emptiness the world would be a better place?  This is what you preach?  And you say Christians are bad.  WOW!!  Anyone with a brain can see that this way of thinking has lead to another pointless act, in the name of the GREATER GOOD, yeah....  I mean, what's the point? 

 

If we are just some anonymous creatures, with empty task, why don't you just blast yourself now?  You wanna enjoy your life, the way you want to right?  Having a job, having no job, this is what brings you joy?  A house, a girlfriend/wife, a car and a family, so much happiness?  None of these things mean anything at all, and i'm sorry if you find joy in such stupidity, i really am sorry, and pity you.  Its funny, such an empty lifestyle, vanity.  I guess this is the reason why so many people support abortion, "why not spare the little lad of such emptiness, I wanna continue in my nothingness without interruption.  I cant live the way I want to with a baby, I'll abort him/her, in THE NAME OF FREEDOM!!  No freedom for you my son/daughter, I must continue to rid the world of Christians, you'll only get in my way.  I have the privilege of nothing, and i'm going to spare you that privilege."  You go through life in search of nothing, always learning, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.  Teaching people to partake in your infidelity, and condemning others who don't support such a lame cause. 

 

Well did not God tell us about you in the book of Romans, you have 14 versus dedicated to you.  Romans 1:18-32 especially 32.  And i'm not going into a bible debate with anybody, unless compelled(if such a person is on the brink of some type of wisdom), just know this, God from the foundation of the world has elected people unto salvation, so Brian is right about something finally, He elected the nation of Israel, and they cleaned house, mass genocide all over the earth, by His command, man, woman and child, there evilness deserving of death.  He chose one nation to be merciful to, and even they were just as disobedient as the pagan ones, and its clearly illustrated in the judgment they are under now.  And please spare me on the innocence of children lecture, when you support abortion, fools and blind!! 

 

No man comes to God, unless the Father draws Him, so stop wasting your time, searching the bible, you cant understand it unless you are Gods elect, unless God elected you unto salvation before the foundation of the world, unless He regenerates you out of your self-flesh pleasing selves, you will remain in the debased state you are in, and die in it as well.  And continue to curse and blaspheme, Psalms 76:10 says your wrath praises Him, all the time you shake the fist at Him, and curse His name, all the more praises Him, how He is sovereign over His creatures, and there's nothing you can do about.  

 

So, why don't you go run a campaign on other persons putting the fear in individuals, not just Theist, what about police, who use scare tactics like the speed limit to stop people from reckless driving, or the camera's at stop lights that evoke the fear of a fine, if ran.  Or maybe insurance companies who put the fear in you and compel you to more coverage, you never know, a tornado could hit your house and car, you could've saved %15 percent or more if you would've switched, thatss all-states stand!  Or maybe your country, who IS NOT in Iraq for the sake of Christianity, we are just like any other great ruler in times past, trying to gain control over everything.  How about Alexander the Great, Pharraoh and the Egyptians, or the Roman Empire, whose motivation was not gods, but to serve there own flesh in trying to take over the world.  Since there is NO GOD, these men did these things because they were self pleasing, so now we know what atheist do in absence of any divine Being, (Brain animated voice) TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!! 

 

Your claim is that there is NO GOD, so since there is NO GOD, we as humans, have been acting out of our own self conscious efforts, the outward confessions made by people meant nothing, in actuality they were doing it all for themselves or their nation.  So your claims of atheism is the cure are inane, since we are all actually atheist, the world and its results are caused by atheism. 

 

Oh yeah, and if your not Gods elect, No, your not going to become a Christian on your death bed, as you think some people do, it doesn't work that way, No, everyone cannot gain repentance, Hitler, Stalin, whoever, I don't care if they claimed to be Christians, they are not in heaven, trust and believe.  Repentance has to be granted to you (2 Timothy 2:25).  No, everyone claiming to be a Christian is not a Christian, No, almost the whole of Americans are no where near God, No you cant do what you want in Christianity and ask for forgiveness, stop trying to read the scriptures, if you can interpret it correctly, Jesus is not teaching that as a Christian you do anything you want and ask forgiveness, Paul expounded on Jesus teaching in Romans 6, and also a word of condemnation for such people thinking they can continue in their evil deeds, and still think they are Christians, and accuse the bible of encouraging such (Romans 3:Cool.  Saying there is no God is not the unpardonable sin, on the contrary, your title is given in Psalms 14:1.

Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.

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the picture is from the

the picture is from the Alexisonfire album cover from their latest CD, crisis.


Beatz
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Latin, why are you quoting

Latin, why are you quoting something you have no understanding of?  I know God didn't say that in the old testament, He said it in the new one, thanks for the observation.  If you dont understand the bible, then why do you quote it?  Our Mediator, Jesus Christ, who is God, can do what He wants, because the Father has given Him these rights.  You dont get that, dont try.  What you need to see if you can digest, is that Christ died for sinners.  Since you claim to have no sin, I guess He didn't die for you.  But I cant make that judgment now.  For all I know you could be a believer tommorow.

Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.

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    "no man comes to the

    "no man comes to the Father except through me."

NO NO NO anonymous John wrote that .....

Beatz, do you have any authentic audio recordings of Jesus ???


Beatz
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God didn't say a lot of

God didn't say a lot of things He said in the OT, in the NT.  You just answered your own question, God was speaking to the elected nation of Israel(the Jews) at that time, like you said, telling them, that God is near all of them that call unto Him.  Now Jesus says, He has come to lay down His life for His sheep.  For the Jews first, and the gentiles.  I have a bible, which is Gods word to His people, you can get the audio version at a Christian bookstore though.

Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.

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Beatz wrote: Tarpan you

Beatz wrote:

Tarpan you can read the scriptures for yourself, as I can see, you and everybody else has already done so. Gods a fact, maybe one day he will enable you to realize it. Like I said before, i'm sorry all of you learned bumper sticker theology growing up, hey, I did too.

 

And you can take it or leave it, we are puppets, our lives were ordained before we even took a breath.

You loath yourself that much to call yourself a puppet. Sad, very sad. You delude yourself into being a lemming and call yourself a puppet because of a poorly written work of fiction that took over 1,000 years and 40 authors to write.  God can "Poof" make the universe, but takes 1,000 years to complete his book? Where is the efficiancy in that?

You want to call yourself a puppet, I cant stop you. But I am better than that. I dont consider myself a puppet and I would never worship or follow any human that called me such or expected me to be such, so why would I want to worship any diety claim that portays the same claim?

You base your intire life on the fairy tale that a ghost knocked up a girl and a zombie god survived rigor mortis after 3 days. You might as well believe that Thor makes lighting while you are at it.

"Bumpersticker theology" ha ha ha ha ha ha..............

We readly admit that apologists can be very elaborate in dressing up their superstition in fancy packaging. But we also know that Hocus pocus is fiction and no matter how much you dress it up, fiction will always be fiction.

It is not our fault that the writers of the bible didnt know that the earh was 13 billion years old and not made in six days. It is not our fault that the writers of the bible treated the sun and moon as seperate sources of light, and did not know that the sun was a star and did not know that not all the points of light in the sky were stars, but galaxies. 

It is not our fault that that it made claims of sayters, unicorns, talking donkeys and talking bushes. It is not our fault that it called the earth flat, dispite that we know that the earth is round. 

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that the sun is not a thinking being like the ancient Eygpitans falsely believed for over 3 thousand years. If they could buy a myth for that long, what makes you think you are immune to mundain human behaivor?

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Actually again, your wrong,

Actually again, your wrong, i do understand the bible, and I quoted the OT, which is also the torah, which is what I am quoting. Thank you very much, which I have also studied. To be specific, I studied the bible with a catholic theologist and an Anglican priest (part of a course I took in my late teens) as well I studied the Torah with 2 rabbi friends of my family (oddly enough my immediate family are atheists however we do know why we don't believe, yet still try to study why others believe, which includes understanding their holy books). However I have been an atheist my entire life.


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Beatz, there's a lot of

Beatz, there's a lot of great verses you're missing here: http://tinyurl.com/7jjzf


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Beatz wrote: Latin, why are

Beatz wrote:
Latin, why are you quoting something you have no understanding of? I know God didn't say that in the old testament, He said it in the new one, thanks for the observation. If you dont understand the bible, then why do you quote it? Our Mediator, Jesus Christ, who is God, can do what He wants, because the Father has given Him these rights. You dont get that, dont try. What you need to see if you can digest, is that Christ died for sinners. Since you claim to have no sin, I guess He didn't die for you. But I cant make that judgment now. For all I know you could be a believer tommorow.

 

Oh boy yet again, god sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself......boy you really never bothred to understand the torah which is the OT, you never studied it, and never understood the massive contradiction that this is, I am going to take it that as a good jesus believer, you believe in the trinity, which again, if you bothered with the Torah and everything else that goes with it, which the bible is based on and then added too, you would see this contradiction of a statement. 

 

    Let me give you a few more statements that are accredited to god in the Torah/OT.

 Revere only the L-rd your G-d and worship Him alone and swear only by his name.(Dt 6:13) Jesus is not his name, there is only one god, not three as per this statement. 

  O L-rd our G-d! Lords other than you have posses us, but only Your name shall we utter(Is. 26:13)  Only one name, jesus again is not it.

    O L-rd of hosts, enthroned on the cherubim! You alone are G-d of all the kingdom of the earth.(Is 37:16) again 1 god, not 1 in 3 or 3 in 1 however you want to look at it, something the christian faith is great at trying to wiggle out of but never truely explaining the contradiction in this belief of the trinity and jesus being god sacraficing himself to himself to save us from himself.

  Before me no god was formed, and after me none shall exist. None but Me, the L-rd, besides Me none can grant triumph. I alone foretold the triumph . . . (Is 43:10-12) wow, jesus existed as god? wait this is a contradiction of this statement right here....but as a good christian....your will ignore this.

    And besides me there is no G-d(Is 44:6) again jesus comes well after this statement claiming he is god, when in fact he isn't because I mean god wouldn't contradict himself right?....oh boy, please go study your bible, study it's origins and study it correctly.


Beatz
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ok, well you werent acting

ok, well you werent acting like you understood it with that comment, you should understand then that Christ died for sinners, i'm not saying He died for you, might of, might not of. 

 

And Brian37, why are you bashing the writers of the bible, when they didn't have the technology you have today, to make such observations.  and if you read the scriptures closely, you would see that God didn't give us a date on "in the beggining."  So your assumption that the earth is 13 million years old could be just as wrong, from what the bible says, it could be billions more old, maybe even trillions.

Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.

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    Beatz, "WE ATHEISTS

    Beatz"WE ATHEISTS LOVE YOU MORE" 

 Come on show me your Xian love,

bet ya bet ya .... My love is stronger ..... wantta bet ?     


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Beatz wrote:

Beatz wrote:
God didn't say a lot of things He said in the OT, in the NT. You just answered your own question, God was speaking to the elected nation of Israel(the Jews), like you said, telling them, that God is near all of them that call unto Him.

"elected nation" who ellected the jews? God? Why would god need to "vote" a nation into favored status? If he is voting, wouldnt that mean others equal to him are having a vote too?

Do you know how rediculous you sound?

But why would god give a nation to Jews if they arnt going to get into heaven? What is it? A consolation prize?

GOD IS REAL AND HIS NAME IS DON PARDO!

GOD," Sorry Jews, you didnt make it to final Jepordy, DON(me,God), tell them what they've won.......Well God(me, Don), they've won a nation and will live in peace untill judgement day and at that point they will be thrown into hell for not kissing your son's ass....I mean my ass."

(CLOSING THEM TO JEPORDY AND CREDITS ROLL, OBNOXIOUS DJ ANOUNCER VOICE)

ARMAGEDEON(Jewish for Jeopardy) IS A KING WORLD PRODUCTION. GOD'S SUITS HELL FIRE RED, AND PROVIDED TO YOU BY BOTNEY 500.

ALL 6 BILLION CONTESTANTS APPEARING ON MY PERFECT PLAN CALLED LIFE ARE SUBJECT TO KISS MY SONS ASS BECAUSE I SACRAFICED MYSELF TO MYSELF SO MY PUPPETS COULD AVOID MY WRATH. ALL PRIZES ARE SUBJECT TO LOCAL AND FEDERAL TAX (GIVE TO CEAZAR).

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Beatz wrote:  So your

Beatz wrote:

 So your assumption that the earth is 13 million years old could be just as wrong, from what the bible says, it could be billions more old, maybe even trillions.

That would be a poor assumption, given the age of the earth is probably much closer to 4.5 billion years. 


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If your not a puppet, why

If your not a puppet, why are you doing exactly what the bible says you would do(2 timothey 3:1-5). 

 

And Latin you just quoted everything Jesus said in the Old Testament, thats nice.  And I like the sent Himself, to die, to save you from Himself thing, that was good.  Kinda the same as Romans 11:36.  Please guy, spare me, I'm the one who believes those things, not you.  You might wanna get a proper translation on Deutoronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel:  Jehovah, our Elohim, is One Jehovah.  God said let US make man, not let Me make man.  Are you a Jew or an Atheist, you could easily pass for a Jew.

Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.

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Beatz wrote: ok, well you

Beatz wrote:

ok, well you werent acting like you understood it with that comment, you should understand then that Christ died for sinners, i'm not saying He died for you, might of, might not of.

 

And Brian37, why are you bashing the writers of the bible, when they didn't have the technology you have today, to make such observations. and if you read the scriptures closely, you would see that God didn't give us a date on "in the beggining." So your assumption that the earth is 13 million years old could be just as wrong, from what the bible says, it could be billions more old, maybe even trillions.

 

Can't be trillions first and foremost, the evidence indicates that the earth was formed some 4 billion years ago, the universe....about 13.5 to 14 billion years ago.....still about 982 billion years short for the first trillion (again come on stop being ignorant here) second gensis states the universe, our planet and life was created in 6 days (even if you take some theologiests idea that 1 days to god is a thousand years....we are still talking about 6 thousand years) which contradicts all the evidence, it was 14 billion years ago the universe was created and not till about 10 billion years later our solar system was formed....and our planet about the same time or 500 million years later. to which it took about most of that time to have life evolve to human form and most of it's present day animals to evolve to, actually life doesn't even show up for another billion years or so.


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Beatz wrote: If your not a

Beatz wrote:

If your not a puppet, why are you doing exactly what the bible says you would do(2 timothey 3:1-5).

 

And Latin you just quoted everything Jesus said in the Old Testament, thats nice. And I like the sent Himself, to die, to save you from Himself thing, that was good. Kinda the same as Romans 11:36. Please guy, spare me, I'm the one who believes those things, not you. You might wanna get a proper translation on Deutoronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: Jehovah, our Elohim, is One Jehovah. God said let US make man, not let Me make man. Are you a Jew or an Atheist, you could easily pass for a Jew.

 

    Well I bothered to study it, something which so far you have shown to lack, again the OT has shown only 1 god, not 2 or 3. The NT is an add on to make the bible, which contradicts the statement in the OT that nothing shall be added or diminished. But hey, why bother to study this stuff yourself, you believe that's fine, but don't think i don't understand this stuff, I understand it far better than you do, as for saying what jesus said, no that is in correct, jesus isn't around at all for this part, not until sometime later does jesus show up, so no, there is no jesus as god, according to the OT there i only 1 god and he won't be showing up on earth as the messiah, since the that makes no sense as the meassiah has to be born of man and woman and be human, jesus is god in human form, born of a woman....and god, why would he bother doing such a thing as that contradicts the OT statements big time? Well you keep on being angry at life and everything else and believing that your belief is correct and everyone else that doens't agree with you is wrong, i'll continue to show you your ignorance and having fun at it Laughing out loud


Beatz
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Brian, why are you angry

Brian, why are you angry with me, because God might not have chose you?

Latin, ok, the earth is 4.5 billion years old, your missing the point, the bible, doesn't deny that, actually it supports it.  It does not say in the beginning, God created the universe, it says the heavens and the earth.  You dont know when that beginning was, maybe it was 4.5 billion years ago, we cant know for shore.

 

and your wrong, genesis says the earth was REFORMED in 6 days, please understand your reading a translation first of all, and your reading it wrong second of all, you said you knew a guy who knows hebrew, well, I dont have time to sit down and teach you Hebrew, but please stop quoting, if you have a question because you dont understand then ask, dont quote it wrong.  God told Adam to replenish the earth, the hebrew there means to re-fill.  It was a re-make, did you miss the second verse, the earth was without form and void.  

 

Once again, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, we dont know when that beginning was.  Theres a period(.), then it says the earth was without form and void.  He did not create the earth without form and void, there is a lapse there, then it goes onto to talk about the re-forming of the earth.    

Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.

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Quote: You dont know when

Quote:

You dont know when that beginning was, maybe it was 4.5 billion years ago, we cant know for shore.

No, You can't know for "shore" because the men who invented your god didn't know the answer.


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Well since you know so

Well since you know so much, explain to me what Let Us means, and angels had nothing to do with creation.  Also, explain the plural form of Eloah to me, which is Elohim.  Explain Judges 13:21-22 which talk about The Angel of the Lord, and call Him God. 

Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.

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oh boy, if you really want

oh boy, if you really want to go at we can. First the earth cannot be without form, it's nothing, there is no earth then. second there isn't a period, there is a comma that then goes, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. (this from the Jewish publication society of 1917) Now it has no form and void, how can it have water? since water doesn't show up on the earth for a few 100 million years after the earth has been formed and there can't be water in a void or on a unformed mass?

Lets look at the next part. 3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light. but there already was light, since the sun formed first, the rest of the planets are formed from the left over dust.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.  The light is divided from the darkness? hmmm in space there is the sun and end there is the void of space, there really is not day and night, it's just what we call it on earth when one side of the earth is facing way from the sun, and day when it's facing the sun.

    then lets look at the next part: And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.' 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. {P} So far we have 2 days, day 1 earth and day 2 heaven.

    And God said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called the Seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. {P} So day one sun and earth are formed, day to heaven, day three dry land and plant life.

 And God said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.' And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. {P}  So day four, god has created the sun, the moon and the stars...oh boy science is going to contradict this entire statement and so is the evidence for science...but we will get to that later.

    And God said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.' 21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.' 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. {P} So now we get birds, fish, whales and other large sea animals and insects as well. Day 5 ok. 

    And God said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind.' And it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. 28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 29 And God said: 'Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed--to you it shall be for food; 30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, [I have given] every green herb for food.' And it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. {P} Day six god creates not just all the rest of the animals that he forgot on day 5 but all the other insects on day 6 and humans as well.

 

So lets look at the problems here, first the sun was formed before the earth, there was light well before the earth, not the earth and light and four days later the sun. Second the moon isn't around for another billion years.....not four days later...as for the stars...well there are stars that are older than our solar system, far far older. Now life doesn't show up for another 500 millions years. So far we have gensis stating that when ever god decided to create the universe (as your stating that this could have been anytime) that it took six days to get to our present state with humans, birds,  cattle, etc etc etc, that the sun was formed before there was light and that the sun and the moon appeared at the same time, as well as the stars, that there was water in an unformed and void earth (which itself is a contradiction) and water doesn't show up again for another couple 100 millions after the earth is formed. Humans don't show up for another 4 billion years or so. Wow so much problems where with genisis.....but hey twist it anyway you want to make it work with all the evidence scientists and those before us gathered.

Sorry for the long post everyone. 


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Beatz wrote:

Beatz wrote:

Well since you know so much, explain to me what Let Us means, and angels had nothing to do with creation. Also, explain the plural form of Eloah to me, which is Elohim. Explain Judges 13:21-22 which talk about The Angel of the Lord, and call Him God.

    Sorry it's late, but let me try here, Gensis 1:26 the let us is believed to be one of 2 forms, one in a majestic form, as a king would address his court, in the plural form, 2, as many biblical scholars would say god is address the angels to help him create man. But so many christians have abandoned this arguement, only those that don't bother to study it continue with this arguement.

    Eloah and Elohim, well they are both used many times throughout the bible Elohim many times in when it speaks in the singular form of God such as in Exodux 3:4, it is also used as the plural form of Eloah in Exodus 20:3, see the plural form is bar'u and the singular form bara yet both are translated as Elohim, it really depends on how it is being used, some of it meaning singual form others as plural. But you should know this already right?

    As for judges 13:21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah or to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of the LORD. and 22 And Manoah said unto his wife: 'We shall surely die, because we have seen God. So Manoah see the angel appointed by god to represent him on earth....this is nog god in angelic form on earth, this the angel OF THE lord not the lord as an angel or god as an angel, but an angel that is being the representative of god on earth. Huge difference, no where here does it state that it was god himself.

Does this answer it for you?


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Beatz, I only read a couple

Beatz, I only read a couple of sentences and scanned a few more before concluding you're just another hypocritical jesus freak with nothing of consequence to say.  god/jesus/ghost is nothing more than a mental crutch for people too afraid to face life on it's own terms, people unable to take responsibility for their own actions and problems, or too ignorant to do their own thinking. 

Go back to school (I don't mean fundy school), get an education and start thinking for yourself instead of letting some fundamentalist asshat do it for you.

If you want to post something at least make it appear to be question that can be debated.

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Hey Beatz, Jesus just

Hey Beatz, Jesus just called, he said you MUST take your god damned medication and shut the hell up. He also said give it up, no matter how much you try to suck his cock, the decision is final, you ain't on the list, biatch!!!!

I mean I'm sorry (to everyone else) for the languaje, but I give it as I see fit, and the kind of mentality you have showed so far is, to say the least, a detriment to the entire species. 

I won't comment on most of what you said because I don't respond to rants, but one thing you said struck me as interesting: 

Beatz wrote:

Atheist spend all their time in their empty lifestyle of work and partying, drugs and sex, book writing, web-site making, rational responding, etc.. A materialistic endeavor, a futile campaign of work and play, an endless drought of high life or low, ridding the world of people awaiting a blessed hope, who die trying to encourage others that there is something better after this terrible place.

Let's get existential for a moment and assume that life, with all it's potential, both wondrous AND woeful, has no real meaning or purpose, this is, it's devoid of any intrinsic purpose except perhaps life's own self replication and proliferation in and endless, but ultimetly meaningless, cicle.

When confronted with this possibility, we are left with two alternatives, either to grant life an extrinsic (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/extrinsic) meaning and/or purpose or, as you so eloquently put it, to blast ourselves. Finding/granting meaning, sense and purpose to both our life and life itself, is among our first and longest ongoing endeavours since recorded history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life) and, easily presumable, even before that, so I think is fair to say it could be considered as an intrinsic part of our nature as conscious beings (the two needlesly highlighted words were particulary chosen for a reason).

Now here's the thing, you managed to merge the two alternatives mentioned before and found meaning in your life by rendering it meaningless. You pulled a deus ex machina called Heaven, making this life as little more than an annoyance while you wait and see if you were "pre-ornainly" chosen to after-live there. That's pretty much like putting all your money on a unicorn at the race tracks. The funny thing is, the straw man you called "the empty lifestyle" we atheist chose to live is nothing more than life itself, we choose to LIVE, each in our own particular way, some drawing the meaning of our lives from our work, our hobbies, our loved ones, yes, some even from hedonistic pleasures, but regardless, we LIVE.

Granted, you could argue that also pulled our own sense and reason to live out of "thin air" but, guess what, there isn't gonna be any other, and even if there is a truly intrinsic purpose to life, we definetly haven't found it yet, and I don't think we will, so we're stuck with what we can muster by ourselves, and to me, pulling a sense to life from "thin air" is a lot better than pulling it from "a tyranic being that existed before any air, indeed, before anything at all did". 

I really don't see why Pascal's Wager is an argument for religion, if anything is a strong argument against it. You want proof of this? Let's take another look at the race tracks: we put our money on a horse WE CAN PROVE IT EXISTS, and thus know it's running, you betted on the unicorn NO ONE CAN PROVE IT EXISTS.

 Wanna know how the race went down:

"Little Atheist Rascal's speeding up on the curve, followed by Godsy the Unicorn. Godsy's leading, Little Atheist gaining up. Faster, and Faster they go into the last strech. Little Atheist's now leading, now Godsy, now Atheist, it's gonna be a photograph finale folks and.....GODSY THE UNICORN WINS BY A NOSE....Oh wait, wait, Godsy's cracking in two halves??? OH, Ladies and Gentlemen, Godsy the Unicorn wasn't even a unicorn, it's two guys on a Unicorn Costume, and what are those needles?? They were on steroids too!!!..."

 And what did Godsy's manager had to say?: "Pay no attention to the two guys behind the Unicorn Costume".

Lenore, The Cute Little Dead Girl. Twice as good as Jesus.


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Beatz wrote: If your not a

Beatz wrote:

If your not a puppet, why are you doing exactly what the bible says you would do(2 timothey 3:1-5).

I knew you were going to say that. That, will be $3.99 per minute. 

Would you like to charge this call to your Visa or Mastercard?

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Let me see if I understand

Let me see if I understand wht you've said here, Beatz...

First, regarding God:

1)God has prordained an 'elect' few for salvation, and everyone else gets to burn.

Also, you're using the term in its original meaning of 'chosen, superior, specifically singled out for their greatness' sense, not in the 'bunch of people get together and vote' sense, to clarify for Brian.

2)Those whom God has predestined for Salvation will be Saved, and those whom God has predestined for the pit will burn, regardless of their actions/faith/repentence.

3)What each of us does in this life has been pre-ordained by God.

4)God doesn't love everyone, only his elect. God can do this because God is God, and God is big enough and powerful enough to tell the world to go to hell.

At this point, I would like to say, "How very Calvinist of you."

Next, regarding the Bible:

1)Those who study the Bible, and do so in the true grace of God, cannot help but agree with your interpretation. Those who do so without the true grace of God are doomed to an incomplete and mistaken understanding.

2)The Old Testament's use of a plural term for God is a subtle reference to the existence of Jesus (and, presumably, the Spirit) before the events of the New Testament took place.

3)When asked for an actual audio recording of Christ to substantiate certain things as actually his words, and not the creation of the author(s) of the original form(s) of the gospel(s), you suggested going to the book store to pick up a 'books on tape' version.

At this point, I feel I must add, "and witty, too."

Next, your views on athiests:

1)We are all materialists, hedonists, or thugs.

2)We are terrorists attempting to scare people.

3)We are sinners. We are all sinners, and all responsible for our sins, because Adam sinned.

4)We seek to live in some kind of 'natural rights of man' anarchy where anything goes and the strong survive and thrive on the backs of the weak.

How Hobbesian.

However, as much as I appreciate your attempts to bring it all together, summon the power of Bill Watterson, and return us all to the halcyon days of Calvin & Hobbes, I have to say, you're on crack.

Let me begin by saying: You give Adam a bum rap.

Adam, you say, is responsible for his sin. We are all responsible for our actions. That's cool with me, in fact, it's how I feel. I'd be more than happy to agree with you that we are all responsible for our own actions. Except you toss in that whole 'predestination' doctrine of John Calvin's, and that's where you start contradicting yourself.

See, here's the thing: If God predestined Adam to Fall, then how is Adam responsible? That's like saying that if I throw a rock and hit you in the head, it's the rock's fault. The rock had no choice: I set events in motion. Similarly, Adam had no choice: God decided in advance what Adam would do, and Adam could only do as God decided.

You also completely invalidate any concept of Free Will, but that's ok. The really, really fun part of Calvinism is that despite how well the preachers all love to go Fire & Brimstone, real 'Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God' stuff, Calvinism pretty well eviscerates the entire concept of "sin".

Sin is a transgression against God.

If predestination is correct, and far, far more certainly if your assertion that 'God has preordained everything we do' is correct, there can be no sin.

You cannot transgress against God if you are doing what God created you to do.

Thus, Adam could not have been sinning. None of us can. In fact, because from a theological perspective, "good" is defined as "in accordance with God", there can be no evil, because God has ordained all that will occur. Everything happens because God actively wills it to happen.

Papal heresy? God's Will, no sin. Adam eats an apple? God's Will. David Berkowitz commits multiple murders as the "Son of Sam" killer in New York City in 1978? Not his fault, God actively caused it to happen.

So really, I'd have to say you are the one encouraging people into an immoral lifestyle. Let's review:

No matter what you do, if you are going to Heaven, you are going to Heaven. Rape farm animals while you feed babies to hungry sharks? If you're one of the Elect, that's no problem.

No matter what you do, if you're not going to Heaven, you can't get a change of sentence. Not even if you're the most virtuous person in the world.

Now, commonly, predestination doctrines hold that the Elect will be so filled with God's Grace that they will naturally behave as shining examples to the rest of us, living good and holy lives without really thinking about it.

Of course, that means that those of us who aren't automatically living good and holy lives without thinking about it, well, we can probably count on hellfire. But wait! Paul was Saved! By a BIG FURKING LIGHT!

We'll ignore for the moment that Paul relates the story of his conversion multiple times, and each time, he changes the details, and so is probably lying his ass off the whole time...

This means that no matter how bad you are, if you're one of the Elect, eventually God will intervene. So until you actively feel the direct hand of God upon your head (even if only as a transcendent experience while someone's talking to you about faith... I'm not saying the Calvinists believe there will be a Paul-esque blinding light for everyone), don't worry about it. If you're Saved, then one day it'll happen.

Until then, be bad. Be selfish. Be a total drunken slut drugmonkey. After all, you're Saved! and if you're not, well, nothing you can do to GET saved... so why not enjoy it while you can?

That is the endpoint of the 'predestination' doctrine. That is one of the great evils of religion: If you're saved, it doesn't matter how bad you are, you're saved. If you're not saved, it doesn't matter how bad you are, you were already screwed. So basically, predestination means: It doesn't matter how bad you are. Besides, none of it's really your fault. God's pulling the strings. You're not responsible.

And you say we're the immoral ones for telling people that we think they should live a moral life because it's moral, and not in the hopes of getting a lollipop from the Death Fairy?

 

 

 

(P.S.: Really, tossing in that suggestion that someone study 'Reformed Theology', that was pretty un-subtle, given that 'Reformed Theology' is directly and specificly Calvinism. You should've just said you're a Calvinist.)

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Beatz wrote:

Beatz wrote:

Brian, why are you angry with me, because God might not have chose you?

I'll take a risk here and make an assumption that you do have some sort of reading comprehension skills. Please dont dissapoint me.

Pearson A(thats you) claims X is true. The following is merely a response to the claim you make. I dont believe your crap, I am simply responding to the claim.

If FOR ARGUMENT'S SAKE ONLY, one were to take that position, my response would be that (based on the claim given) that such a being would be a prick undeserving of worship. I have already explaind why in prior posts. But just like I said before, fortunatly for me such a fictional tyrant doesnt exist. Unfortunatly for humanity, cheerleaders for Allah/Yahwey and Jesus, are bountyfull in their delusions. Just like the Anceint Egyptians were delusional in believing that the sun was a thinking entity.

How the fuck can I care about a fictional god? I dont believe any any superstitious magical being, not just yours. I am adressing your claim and pointing out that YOU anger me by spouting such lies.I do care that people like you spread lies about reality and that does make me angry.

You do understand english dont you?

The earth was NOT created in 6 days. You are attempting to redefine a "day" because you got caught in a lie. Do not blame me for the ineptitude of the writers of the bible. A "Day" is a 24 hour period. The earth was not created in 6 days. Any geologist will tell you that moron.

Human flesh cannot survive rigor mortis. SORRY YOU LOSE!

There is no such thing as ghosts knocking up girls. You have baught a superstitious fairy tale. What angers me is that you insist on spreading these lies to others and dumbing them down and scrambling their brains as badly as you have allowed yourself to be.

Get help, you need it.

 

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Beatz wrote: Brian, why

Beatz wrote:

Brian, why are you angry with me, because God might not have chose you?

 

Sigh. Statements like this come from arrogance not insight. And according to your theology, pride comes before a fall. 

 

 


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Least he didn't say "Brian,

Least he didn't say "Brian, Brian, why have you forsaken me?"


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wavefreak wrote: Beatz

wavefreak wrote:
Beatz wrote:

Brian, why are you angry with me, because God might not have chose you?

 

Sigh. Statements like this come from arrogance not insight. And according to your theology, pride comes before a fall.

 

 

What I always like about this Calvinistic claptrap is that those who swear allegiance to it actually believe that they are among the elect.

In fact, they're just hoping as hard as any other Christian that they have the winning Heaven lottery numbers. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote: What I

jcgadfly wrote:

What I always like about this Calvinistic claptrap is that those who swear allegiance to it actually believe that they are among the elect.

In fact, they're just hoping as hard as any other Christian that they have the winning Heaven lottery numbers.

Moreso, really. Most Christians at least have the fallback position of 'even if I'm not in good with the big guy now, I can get there if I believe hard enough and truly repent for being a deuche.' The Calvinists don't even have that. Do whatever, God's already decided. 

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BMcD wrote: Let me see if

BMcD wrote:

Let me see if I understand wht you've said here, Beatz...

First, regarding God:

1)God has prordained an 'elect' few for salvation, and everyone else gets to burn.

Also, you're using the term in its original meaning of 'chosen, superior, specifically singled out for their greatness' sense, not in the 'bunch of people get together and vote' sense, to clarify for Brian.

2)Those whom God has predestined for Salvation will be Saved, and those whom God has predestined for the pit will burn, regardless of their actions/faith/repentence.

3)What each of us does in this life has been pre-ordained by God.

4)God doesn't love everyone, only his elect. God can do this because God is God, and God is big enough and powerful enough to tell the world to go to hell.

At this point, I would like to say, "How very Calvinist of you."

Next, regarding the Bible:

1)Those who study the Bible, and do so in the true grace of God, cannot help but agree with your interpretation. Those who do so without the true grace of God are doomed to an incomplete and mistaken understanding.

2)The Old Testament's use of a plural term for God is a subtle reference to the existence of Jesus (and, presumably, the Spirit) before the events of the New Testament took place.

3)When asked for an actual audio recording of Christ to substantiate certain things as actually his words, and not the creation of the author(s) of the original form(s) of the gospel(s), you suggested going to the book store to pick up a 'books on tape' version.

At this point, I feel I must add, "and witty, too."

Next, your views on athiests:

1)We are all materialists, hedonists, or thugs.

2)We are terrorists attempting to scare people.

3)We are sinners. We are all sinners, and all responsible for our sins, because Adam sinned.

4)We seek to live in some kind of 'natural rights of man' anarchy where anything goes and the strong survive and thrive on the backs of the weak.

How Hobbesian.

However, as much as I appreciate your attempts to bring it all together, summon the power of Bill Watterson, and return us all to the halcyon days of Calvin & Hobbes, I have to say, you're on crack.

Let me begin by saying: You give Adam a bum rap.

Adam, you say, is responsible for his sin. We are all responsible for our actions. That's cool with me, in fact, it's how I feel. I'd be more than happy to agree with you that we are all responsible for our own actions. Except you toss in that whole 'predestination' doctrine of John Calvin's, and that's where you start contradicting yourself.

See, here's the thing: If God predestined Adam to Fall, then how is Adam responsible? That's like saying that if I throw a rock and hit you in the head, it's the rock's fault. The rock had no choice: I set events in motion. Similarly, Adam had no choice: God decided in advance what Adam would do, and Adam could only do as God decided.

You also completely invalidate any concept of Free Will, but that's ok. The really, really fun part of Calvinism is that despite how well the preachers all love to go Fire & Brimstone, real 'Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God' stuff, Calvinism pretty well eviscerates the entire concept of "sin".

Sin is a transgression against God.

If predestination is correct, and far, far more certainly if your assertion that 'God has preordained everything we do' is correct, there can be no sin.

You cannot transgress against God if you are doing what God created you to do.

Thus, Adam could not have been sinning. None of us can. In fact, because from a theological perspective, "good" is defined as "in accordance with God", there can be no evil, because God has ordained all that will occur. Everything happens because God actively wills it to happen.

Papal heresy? God's Will, no sin. Adam eats an apple? God's Will. David Berkowitz commits multiple murders as the "Son of Sam" killer in New York City in 1978? Not his fault, God actively caused it to happen.

So really, I'd have to say you are the one encouraging people into an immoral lifestyle. Let's review:

No matter what you do, if you are going to Heaven, you are going to Heaven. Rape farm animals while you feed babies to hungry sharks? If you're one of the Elect, that's no problem.

No matter what you do, if you're not going to Heaven, you can't get a change of sentence. Not even if you're the most virtuous person in the world.

Now, commonly, predestination doctrines hold that the Elect will be so filled with God's Grace that they will naturally behave as shining examples to the rest of us, living good and holy lives without really thinking about it.

Of course, that means that those of us who aren't automatically living good and holy lives without thinking about it, well, we can probably count on hellfire. But wait! Paul was Saved! By a BIG FURKING LIGHT!

We'll ignore for the moment that Paul relates the story of his conversion multiple times, and each time, he changes the details, and so is probably lying his ass off the whole time...

This means that no matter how bad you are, if you're one of the Elect, eventually God will intervene. So until you actively feel the direct hand of God upon your head (even if only as a transcendent experience while someone's talking to you about faith... I'm not saying the Calvinists believe there will be a Paul-esque blinding light for everyone), don't worry about it. If you're Saved, then one day it'll happen.

Until then, be bad. Be selfish. Be a total drunken slut drugmonkey. After all, you're Saved! and if you're not, well, nothing you can do to GET saved... so why not enjoy it while you can?

That is the endpoint of the 'predestination' doctrine. That is one of the great evils of religion: If you're saved, it doesn't matter how bad you are, you're saved. If you're not saved, it doesn't matter how bad you are, you were already screwed. So basically, predestination means: It doesn't matter how bad you are. Besides, none of it's really your fault. God's pulling the strings. You're not responsible.

And you say we're the immoral ones for telling people that we think they should live a moral life because it's moral, and not in the hopes of getting a lollipop from the Death Fairy?

 

 

 

(P.S.: Really, tossing in that suggestion that someone study 'Reformed Theology', that was pretty un-subtle, given that 'Reformed Theology' is directly and specificly Calvinism. You should've just said you're a Calvinist.)

Awesome post BMcD...( nothing to add from me )...just kudos for a good job at exposing the internal conflicts of Calvanistic theology.

 


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Well done, that was a great

Well done, that was a great rant from somebody who's obviously never read anything except the bible. 


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Awesome post BMcD...( nothing to add from me )...just kudos for a good job at exposing the internal conflicts of Calvanistic theology.

 

I second that...especially loved the Watterson ref Wink


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  I know that crazies are

 

I know that crazies are frustrating, but come on you guys... this is the best crazy we've had in a while. =D 

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.


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Beatz wrote: Watcher, I'm

Beatz wrote:
Watcher, I'm trying to figure out who told you the catholic doctrine was correct?  Pope, mary(immaculate conception), etc.  Maybe you should graduate now to reformed theology.

Why the catholics did.  duh.

I was raised Southern Baptist personally.

Maybe you should graduate now to atheism.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Watcher wrote: Beatz

Watcher wrote:

Beatz wrote:
Watcher, I'm trying to figure out who told you the catholic doctrine was correct? Pope, mary(immaculate conception), etc. Maybe you should graduate now to reformed theology.

Why the catholics did. duh.

I was raised Southern Baptist personally.

Maybe you should graduate now to atheism.

Don't rush him, Watcher.

Growing up can be a scary thing. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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IMHO there are some theists

IMHO there are some theists / Christian members here who, when they present their arguments, are articulate, patient, intelligent, friendly, etc .....but beatz isn't one of them.

I don't think I could tolerate this beatz person even if he/she were an atheist. The A-hole factor is just too hard to ignore.Undecided


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Watcher wrote:

Watcher wrote:


I was raised Southern Baptist personally.

 

Southern Baptist ? ..me too. ( also born a native Texan.) We are products of our environment apparently.


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jcgadfly wrote: Don't rush

jcgadfly wrote:

Don't rush him, Watcher.

Growing up can be a scary thing. 

I wonder how old he is.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Watcher wrote: jcgadfly

Watcher wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Don't rush him, Watcher.

Growing up can be a scary thing.

I wonder how old he is.

Physically or intellectually?

Growing up in either can still be traumatic. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Beatz wrote: No, the fear

Beatz wrote:

No, the fear of God has to be put into a person(by God) in order for a response to be made initially. So in actuality, if the method Christians use is not effecting you whatsoever, you have nothing to worry about. Which for example is you, right? You are not in fear because of what we say, because God hasn't instilled His fear in you. You will remain in your state until God choses to do so(if). So essentially, we have no effect on anyone, who God hasn't chosen and regenerated. Christians are just a secondary cause, God being the first cause. Now, we as humans coerece no one to make decisions, a decision is made, based off compelling of God to that particular individual, so always remember, that God puts the fear in the being, we have no power whatsoever to do such. I do know that it wasn't morrally correct for the kids in Colorado to force people to admit there trust in Christ before they killed them, great atheist technique there.

 

you ever notice how if somebody is bad they are automatically an atheist, I find this beatz guy just to be a joke, idiot. 

If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..


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Slayne wrote: Beatz

Slayne wrote:
Beatz wrote:

No, the fear of God has to be put into a person(by God) in order for a response to be made initially. So in actuality, if the method Christians use is not effecting you whatsoever, you have nothing to worry about. Which for example is you, right? You are not in fear because of what we say, because God hasn't instilled His fear in you. You will remain in your state until God choses to do so(if). So essentially, we have no effect on anyone, who God hasn't chosen and regenerated. Christians are just a secondary cause, God being the first cause. Now, we as humans coerece no one to make decisions, a decision is made, based off compelling of God to that particular individual, so always remember, that God puts the fear in the being, we have no power whatsoever to do such. I do know that it wasn't morrally correct for the kids in Colorado to force people to admit there trust in Christ before they killed them, great atheist technique there.

 

you ever notice how if somebody is bad they are automatically an atheist, I find this beatz guy just to be a joke, idiot.

Atheist = the new bogeyman 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Wavefreak, I'm not trying

Wavefreak, I'm not trying to be prideful, i'm sure we all have a little pride in us, if you dont, thats fine.  The point I was getting accross is that I dont know who God has chosen, Brian37 could be one of them, but i was asking, why is he mad with me, if God might not have chosen him.  Brian37 might get saved in the future, I dont know. 

 

Brian37, you fulfill a lot of bible prophecy, especially when Jesus said blessed are you when they revile, and persecute you for My name's sake, the more you chastise Christians, your doing them big favors.  We pray for our enemies.  Atheist do a great service to Christians in helping them become Christlike.

 

Albedo_00, I like your style, belligerent, yet subtle, eloquence and insanity, i'll keep those notes for my attributes of an atheist book.  I usually have a tough time reading through cuss words, and most the time just pass over it, i'm not trying to be rude, I really wanna conversate with you(all jokes aside).

 

Latin, if you dont believe the bible, ok.  I do, you dont have to explain it to me, I'm the ones who believes its Gods word.

 

And last but not least, MR. BMcD.  I'm sorry your little crash course on calvinism you took has a couple issues that need to be tweaked. 

First the elect have nothing in them, and there is nothing about them that makes them special from any other human being.  I'm a sinner just like you brother, so there is no forseen merit in the individual, hence the words, Unconditional Election.

 

Umm. Freewill, well, my finite mind can comprehend this, so i'm sure yours can.  In short, the WILL serves the mind, and the mind is subject to influences, you have a flesh, that you desire to please, thats just one of the many influences.  To say you have a freewill is to say you make actions without cause and effect, if you had a freewill, there would be no cause for anything you do.  If you had a free will, you would be able to believe in God, or the devil, or nothing at all, by your own choice, but since none of us have free will, and everything is preordained, that x's all that out.  God didn't ask anyone if they wanted to be born, so there goes your freewill.  God makes all the choices here.  

 

In response to your throwing rock analogy, i'm sorry, it breaks down from the beginning, doesn't matter if it was ordained, your still the one who threw the rock, not God, you.

 

I believe my brother Author Pink can answer your question about Adam who had more of a freewill then any of us. 

 

APPENDIX B,
THE CASE OF ADAM

 

 Now, strictly speaking, there are only two men who have ever walked this earth which were endowed with full and unimpaired responsibility, and they were the first and last Adam's. The responsibility of each of the rational descendants of Adam, while real, and sufficient to establish them accountable to their Creator is, nevertheless, limited in degree, limited because impaired through the effects of the Fall.

 

 Not only is the responsibility of each descendant of Adam sufficient to constitute him, personally an accountable creature (that is, as one so constituted that he ought to do right and ought not to do wrong), but originally every one of us was also endowed, judicially, with full and unimpaired responsibility, not in ourselves, but, in Adam. It should ever be borne in mind that not only was Adam the father of the human race seminally, but he was also the head of the race legally. When Adam was placed in Eden he stood there as our representative, so that what he did is reckoned to the account of each for whom he acted.

 

It is beside our present purpose to enter here into a lengthy discussion of the Federal Headship of Adam {a}, suffice it now to refer the reader to Rom. 5:12-19 where this truth is dealt with by the Holy Spirit. In the heart of this most important passaGen. we are told that Adam was "the figure of him that was to come" (Rom. 5:14), that is, of Christ. In what sense, then, was Adam "the figure" of Christ? The answer must be, In that he was a Federal Head; in that he acted on the behalf of a race of men; in that he was one who has legally, as well as vitally, affected all connected with him. It is for this reason that the Lord Jesus is in 1 Cor. 15:45 denominated "the last Adam", that is, the Head of the new creation, as the first Adam was the Head of the old creation.

 

In Adam, then, each of us stood. As the representative of the human race the first man acted. As then Adam was created with full and unimpaired responsibility, unimpaired because there was no evil nature within him; and as we were all "in Adam", it necessarily follows that all of us, originally, were also endowed with full and unimpaired responsibility. Therefore, in Eden, it was not merely the responsibility of Adam as a single person that was tested, but it was human responsibility, the responsibility of the race, as a whole and in part, which was on trial.

 

Webster defines responsibility first, as "liable to account"; second, as "able to discharGen. an obligation". perhaps. the meaning and scope of the term responsibility might be expressed and summed up in the one word oughtness. God-wards, responsibility respects that which is due the Creator from the creature, and which the creature is under moral obligations to render.

 

In the light of the above definition it is at once apparent that responsibility is something that must be placed on trial. And as a fact, this is, as we learn from the inspired record, exactly what transpired in Eden. Adam was placed on probation. His obligations to God were put to the test. His loyalty to the creator was tried out. The test consisted of obedience to his maker's command. Of a certain tree he was forbidden to eat.

 

But right here a very formidable difficulty confronts us. From God's standpoint the result of Adam's probation was not left in uncertainty. Before he formed him out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, God knew exactly how the appointed test would terminate. With this statement every Christian reader must be in accord, for, to deny God's foreknowledGen. is to deny his omniscience, and this is to repudiate one of the fundamental attributes of Deity. But we must go further: not only had God a perfect foreknowledGen. of the outcome of Adam's trial, not only did his omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but he decreed beforehand that he should do so. This is evident not only from the general fact that nothing happens save that which the Creator and Governor of the universe has eternally purposed, but also from the express declaration of Scripture that Christ as a Lamb "verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (1Pe 1:20). If, then, God had foreordained before the foundation of the world that Christ should, in due time, be offered as a sacrifice for sin, then it is unmistakably evident that God had also foreordained sin should enter the world, and if so, that Adam should transgress and fall. In full harmony with this, God himself placed in Eden the tree of the knowledGen. of good and evil, and also allowed the Serpent to enter and deceive Eve.

 

Here then is the difficulty: If God has eternally decreed that Adam should eat of the tree, how could he be held responsible not to eat of it? Formidable as the problem appears, nevertheless, it is capable of a solution, a solution, moreover, which can be grasped even by the finite mind. The solution is to be found in the distinction between God's secret will and his revealed will. As stated in Appendix A 1411, human responsibility is measured by our knowledGen. of God's revealed will; what God has told us, not what he has not told us, is the definer of our duty. So it was with Adam.

 

That God had decreed sin should enter this world through the disobedience of our first parents was a secret hid in his own breast. Of this Adam knew nothing, and that made all the difference so far as his responsibility was concerned. Adam was quite unacquainted with the Creator's hidden counsels. What concerned him was God's revealed will. And that was plain! God had forbidden him to eat of the tree, and that was enough. But God went further: he even warned Adam of the dire consequences which would follow should he disobey — death would be the penalty. Transgression, then, on the part of Adam was entirely without excuse. Created with no evil nature in him, with a will in perfect equipoise, placed in the fairest environment, given dominion over all the lower creation, allowed full liberty with only a single restriction upon him, plainly warned of what would follow an act of insubordination to God, there was every possible inducement for Adam to preserve his innocence; and, should he fail and fall, then by every principle of righteousness his blood must lie upon his own head, and his guilt be imputed to all in whose behalf he acted.

 

Had God disclosed to Adam his purpose that sin would enter this world, and that he had decreed Adam should eat of the forbidden fruit, it is obvious that Adam could not have been held responsible for the eating of it. But in that God withheld the knowledGen. of his counsels from Adam, his accountability was not interfered with.

 

Again; had God created Adam with a bias toward evil, then human responsibility had been impaired and man's probation merely one in name. But inasmuch as Adam was included among that which God, at the end of the sixth day, pronounced "Very good", and, inasmuch as man was made "upright" (Ec 7:29), then every mouth must be stopped and the whole world must acknowledGen. itself "guilty before God" (Rom. 3:19).

 

Once more, it needs to be carefully borne in mind that God did not decree that Adam should sin and then inject into Adam an inclination to evil, in order that his decree might be carried out. No; "God cannot be tempted, neither tempteth he any man" (Jas 1:13). Instead, when the Serpent came to tempt Eve, God caused her to remember his command forbidding to eat of the tree of the knowledGen. of good and evil and of the penalty attached to disobedience! Thus, though God had decreed the Fall, in no sense was he the Author of Adam's sin, and at no point was Adam's responsibility impaired. Thus may we admire and adore the "manifold wisdom of God", in devising a way whereby his eternal decree should be accomplished, and yet the responsibility of his creatures be preserved intact.

 

Perhaps. a further word should be added concerning the decretive will of God, particularly in its relation to evil. First of all we take the high ground that, whatever things God does or permits, are right, just, and good, simply because God does or permits them. When Luther gave answer to the question, "Whence it was that Adam was permitted to fall, and corrupt his whole posterity; when God could have prevented him from falling, etc", he said, "God is a Being whose will acknowledges no cause: neither is it for us to prescribe rules to his sovereign pleasure, or call him to account for what he does. He has neither superior nor equal; and his will is the rule of all things. He did not thus will such and such things because they were right, and he was bound to will them; but they are therefore equitable and right because he wills them. The will of man, indeed, may be influenced and moved; but God's will never can. To assert the contrary is to undeify him" (De Servo, Arb. c/ 153).

 

To affirm that God decreed the entrance of sin into his universe, and that he foreordained all its fruits and activities, is to say that which, at first may shock the reader; but reflection should show that it is far more shocking to insist that sin has invaded his dominions against his will, and that its exercise is outside his jurisdiction: for in such a case where would be his omnipotency? No; to recognise that God has foreordained all the activities of evil, is to see that he is the Governor of sin: his will determines its exercise, his power regulates its bounds (Psa. 76:10). He is neither the Inspirer nor the Infuser of sin in any of his creatures, but he is its Master, by which we mean God's management of the wicked is so entire that, they can do nothing save that which his hand and counsel, from everlasting, determined should be done.

 

Though nothing contrary to holiness and righteousness can ever emanate from God, yet he has, for his own wise ends, ordained his creatures to fall into sin. Had sin never been permitted, how could the justice of God have been displayed in punishing it? How could the wisdom of God have been manifested in so wondrously overruling it? How could the grace of God have been exhibited in pardoning it? How could the power of God have been exercised in subduing it? A very solemn and striking proof of Christ's acknowledgment of God's decretal of sin is seen in his treatment of Judas. The Saviour knew full well that Judas would betray him, yet we never read that he expostulated with him! Instead, he said to him, "That thou doest, do quickly" (John 13:27)! Yet, mark this was said after he had received the sop and Satan had taken possession of his heart. Judas was already prepared for and determined on his traitorous work, therefore did Christ permissively (bowing to his Father's ordination) bid him go forth to his awful work.

 

Thus, though God is not the author of sin, and though sin is contrary to his holy nature, yet the existence and operations of it are not contrary to his will, but subservient to it. God never tempts man to sin, but he has, by his eternal counsels (which he is now executing), determined its course. Moreover, as we have shown in 1388, though God has decreed man's sins, yet is man responsible not to commit them, and blameable because he does. Strikingly were these two sides of this awful subject brought together by Christ in that statement of his: "Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come (because God has foreordained them); but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh" (Mt 18:7). So, too, though all which took place at Calvary was by the "determinate counsel and foreknowledGen. of God" (Acts 2:23), nevertheless, "wicked hands" crucified the Lord of glory, and, in consequence, his blood has righteously rested upon them and on their children. High mysteries are these, yet it is both our happy privileGen. and bounden duty to humbly receive whatsoever God has been pleased to reveal concerning them in His Word of Truth.

 

None of you will ever be wise as God, just give it up.  Bow down to your MASTER!!  I do, greatfully.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't believe in God? I can't fix that.

Reformed Theology Resource: www.monergism.com


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*doesn't read any of topic

*doesn't read any of topic beside OP*

 

Wow that was dumb. 


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Calvinism - if only one

Calvinism - if only one could appreciate what license that gives a person.

You can be the worst bastard to walk the earth - you could even be an atheist - but because God chose you to be on his good boy list, you're in.

or

You can be the most moral, Bible believing being that existed but because God put you on his "express train to Hell" list, you burn.

Since no Calvinist really knows what list he/she is on, it doesn't matter how he/she lives.

Must be nice to not be bound by the rules of a functioning society like us evil atheists. 

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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i'm not deciphering this

i'm not deciphering this disasterpiece


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Well the rest of you guys

Well the rest of you guys can keep talking to this nitwit but I'm out.

I don't care to waste my time with someone who's only retort boils down to "Well I believe.  So there!"

I hope all you guys win gods little afterlife lottery.  Since our actions don't matter why even worry about god at all?  I'm not.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Beatz wrote: I really wanna

Beatz wrote:
I really wanna conversate with you(all jokes aside).

No you dont. You want to preach at us, not debate us, otherwise you wouldn't have demonized us in your OP. You got jack slapped because you thought you could come on this board and play martyer and cry, "I'm just trying to save you", and were shocked that someone challenged you. You are not the first and you wont be the last, unfortunatly.

Now, you've stuck around this long which means we are getting to you. Take the next step and stop preaching and present your case without regurgitating the bible. Formulate your own thoughts without a hand up your back.

"The bible says" is what is called circular reasoning. Of course you believe it because it is self serving.

That is the same as saying, "The Koran says" or "The Torrah and Talmud say".

We have been down this route ad nausim and you have NOT braught anything new to the table. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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 To LosingStreak06   You

 To LosingStreak06

 

You know LosingStreak, sometimes when I think about how you and Wave and Pinnaple annoy me (and I am sure the feeling is mutual), somebody like Beatz comes along and makes you guys look sane.Tongue out

Remind me to be more gentle with you three(not that I will comply in every single case) but sometimes I dont realize how good I have it, with you three. 

At a minimum, between you three, you guys at least realize that my fangs are nothing personal. 

BEATZ! FOR THE LOVE OF THOR OR OSIRUS, STOP PREACHING! 

Beatz needs a clue.  I'm sure if he runs down to his local Wal Mart he could find one cheap.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Beatz wrote: None of you

Beatz wrote:
None of you will ever be wise as God, just give it up.  Bow down to your MASTER!!  I do, greatfully.

Saying that is like saying that I am not wiser than Micky Mouse or Superman. You could make a case that a given individual may not be wiser than the people who invented those characters. However I exist, your super hero in the sky is merely a product of human immagination.

You are happy being a slave, or a puppit as you claimed, that is sad. I am not a peice of property and I have no master. I will listen to reason but I dont, nor ever will bow to any dictator.  You want to submit yoruself to being a sub class, you are a fool.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Beatz wrote:

Beatz wrote:

And last but not least, MR. BMcD. I'm sorry your little crash course on calvinism you took has a couple issues that need to be tweaked.

Really? Do tell.

Quote:
First the elect have nothing in them, and there is nothing about them that makes them special from any other human being. I'm a sinner just like you brother, so there is no forseen merit in the individual, hence the words, Unconditional Election.

Exactly. Nothing you do will change your eventual fate. No matter how much you tell people what you feel to be true, it doesn't matter. In the end, by your own belief structure... you're probably going to hell.

Why? Because by your belief structure, a)most people are going to hell, and b)you have no way of knowing who is or isn't. Telling yourself 'I'm one of the Elect' doesn't make it so. All it does is prove that you're both in denial about your odds, and an incredible egotist, imagining that you are saved while others are not. So much for 'Blessed are the meek', eh? Such hubris, to imagine yourself specially blessed by God 'just because'.

Quote:
Umm. Freewill, well, my finite mind can comprehend this, so i'm sure yours can. In short, the WILL serves the mind, and the mind is subject to influences, you have a flesh, that you desire to please, thats just one of the many influences. To say you have a freewill is to say you make actions without cause and effect, if you had a freewill, there would be no cause for anything you do. If you had a free will, you would be able to believe in God, or the devil, or nothing at all, by your own choice, but since none of us have free will, and everything is preordained, that x's all that out. God didn't ask anyone if they wanted to be born, so there goes your freewill. God makes all the choices here.

Excellent! Perfect, in fact!

Quote:
In response to your throwing rock analogy, i'm sorry, it breaks down from the beginning, doesn't matter if it was ordained, your still the one who threw the rock, not God, you.

But wait! God makes all the choices here.

Just as the rock doesn't commit assault, I commit assault by using the rock, humanity doesn't peform the deed, God performs the deed through Man, and so, bears the responsibility.

And the stuff you put up next... agrees with me.

Quote:
I believe my brother Author Pink can answer your question about Adam who had more of a freewill then any of us.

To say that Adam had more free will than we do would mean that God did not actually predestine anything until Adam died, because if Adam has free will, then he can then do things God does not already have him ordained to do, and so can make things occur that God has not ordained. And yet, John Calvin's doctrine of Predestination holds that everything that will ever happen has been ordained and decreed by God since before the cosmos was made.

Quote:
Now, strictly speaking, there are only two men who have ever walked this earth which were endowed with full and unimpaired responsibility, and they were the first and last Adam's. The responsibility of each of the rational descendants of Adam, while real, and sufficient to establish them accountable to their Creator is, nevertheless, limited in degree, limited because impaired through the effects of the Fall.

Except that Adam had no greater choice than any of the rest of us under Predestination, because before Adam was ever made, God had already ordained that Jesus Christ would die upon the cross to atone for the sins of Man. So if that was already determined, then it was already a given that Adam would Fall, that Adam must Fall... because the Fall of Man was the Will of God. If the Fall were not the Will of God, then it could not happen.

Quote:
Not only is the responsibility of each descendant of Adam sufficient to constitute him, personally an accountable creature (that is, as one so constituted that he ought to do right and ought not to do wrong), but originally every one of us was also endowed, judicially, with full and unimpaired responsibility, not in ourselves, but, in Adam. It should ever be borne in mind that not only was Adam the father of the human race seminally, but he was also the head of the race legally. When Adam was placed in Eden he stood there as our representative, so that what he did is reckoned to the account of each for whom he acted.

If you truly believe that principle, then have you apologized to all of the people your ancestors have harmed? Are you not, then, responsible to answer for all of the crimes of your ancestors? Did they not stand in for you in the society of the day?

 

And then follows a couple of paragraphs that basically serve to say that in Eden, we were all being tested, despite there being no actual test, as the outcome was not only known beforehand, but mandated by God.

Quote:
Webster defines responsibility first, as "liable to account"; second, as "able to discharGen. an obligation". perhaps. the meaning and scope of the term responsibility might be expressed and summed up in the one word oughtness. God-wards, responsibility respects that which is due the Creator from the creature, and which the creature is under moral obligations to render.

Or perhaps, the meaning and scope of the term responsibility might be expressed and summed up in the one word responsibility, and when a definition is needed, you use the damn definition, and stop trying to redefine words in order to muddy the waters and justify the pollution of minds with what is so obviously utter bullshit.

But now we get to the fun part!

Quote:
In the light of the above definition it is at once apparent that responsibility is something that must be placed on trial. And as a fact, this is, as we learn from the inspired record, exactly what transpired in Eden. Adam was placed on probation. His obligations to God were put to the test. His loyalty to the creator was tried out. The test consisted of obedience to his maker's command. Of a certain tree he was forbidden to eat.

 

But right here a very formidable difficulty confronts us. From God's standpoint the result of Adam's probation was not left in uncertainty. Before he formed him out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, God knew exactly how the appointed test would terminate. With this statement every Christian reader must be in accord, for, to deny God's foreknowledGen. is to deny his omniscience, and this is to repudiate one of the fundamental attributes of Deity. But we must go further: not only had God a perfect foreknowledGen. of the outcome of Adam's trial, not only did his omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but he decreed beforehand that he should do so. This is evident not only from the general fact that nothing happens save that which the Creator and Governor of the universe has eternally purposed, but also from the express declaration of Scripture that Christ as a Lamb "verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (1Pe 1:20). If, then, God had foreordained before the foundation of the world that Christ should, in due time, be offered as a sacrifice for sin, then it is unmistakably evident that God had also foreordained sin should enter the world, and if so, that Adam should transgress and fall. In full harmony with this, God himself placed in Eden the tree of the knowledGen. of good and evil, and also allowed the Serpent to enter and deceive Eve.

Wait for it...

Quote:
Here then is the difficulty: If God has eternally decreed that Adam should eat of the tree, how could he be held responsible not to eat of it?

It's good to see he notices this, but then he abandons any sense of, well, sense.

Quote:
Formidable as the problem appears, nevertheless, it is capable of a solution, a solution, moreover, which can be grasped even by the finite mind. The solution is to be found in the distinction between God's secret will and his revealed will. As stated in Appendix A 1411, human responsibility is measured by our knowledGen. of God's revealed will; what God has told us, not what he has not told us, is the definer of our duty. So it was with Adam.

Unfortunately, this a)cites an unprovided source, and so that citation can be largely tossed out, but more importantly, b)is absolutely moronic.

Working within your belief structure, God created humanity, and did so to his own specifications... specifications that included 'would eat the damned apple'. And so the responsbility for the incompleteness of Adamn's awareness once again lies... with God.

Quote:
That God had decreed sin should enter this world through the disobedience of our first parents was a secret hid in his own breast. Of this Adam knew nothing, and that made all the difference so far as his responsibility was concerned. Adam was quite unacquainted with the Creator's hidden counsels. What concerned him was God's revealed will. And that was plain! God had forbidden him to eat of the tree, and that was enough. But God went further: he even warned Adam of the dire consequences which would follow should he disobey — death would be the penalty.

But wait! What was "death"? How can a punishment that Adam has no concept of be considered reasonable? And more importantly, so what if Adam didn't know that God had already ordained that Adam must disobey? God bears the responsibility for Adam's actions. Not only did God decree that such actions must be taken, but he is the one who limited Adam's awareness, and moreso, he's the one who made Adam in such a way as to make it impossible for him not to Fall.

Quote:
Transgression, then, on the part of Adam was entirely without excuse.

Nonsense. It was, in fact, the intended result.

Quote:
Created with no evil nature in him, with a will in perfect equipoise, placed in the fairest environment, given dominion over all the lower creation, allowed full liberty with only a single restriction upon him, plainly warned of what would follow an act of insubordination to God, there was every possible inducement for Adam to preserve his innocence; and, should he fail and fall, then by every principle of righteousness his blood must lie upon his own head, and his guilt be imputed to all in whose behalf he acted.

But wait! Evil is disobedience to God's Will, and God's Will was that Adam would eat of the fruit, no matter what he was told. So how is that evil?

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Had God disclosed to Adam his purpose that sin would enter this world, and that he had decreed Adam should eat of the forbidden fruit, it is obvious that Adam could not have been held responsible for the eating of it. But in that God withheld the knowledGen. of his counsels from Adam, his accountability was not interfered with.

Nonsense. Adam's accountability was abrogated completely by God specifically creating Adam in such a way as to make the 'disobedience' inevitable.

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Again; had God created Adam with a bias toward evil, then human responsibility had been impaired and man's probation merely one in name. But inasmuch as Adam was included among that which God, at the end of the sixth day, pronounced "Very good", and, inasmuch as man was made "upright" (Ec 7:29), then every mouth must be stopped and the whole world must acknowledGen. itself "guilty before God" (Rom. 3:19).

Except that since 'evil' is disobedience to the Will of God, and God has ordained all that happens, then there can be no true disobedience to the Will of God, and thus: there is no evil.

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Once more, it needs to be carefully borne in mind that God did not decree that Adam should sin and then inject into Adam an inclination to evil, in order that his decree might be carried out.

No, God hardwired that action into Adam. That specific action, and every other action Adam undertook. God decreed every last one of them. What's more, there is no sin, as sin is, again, disobedience to God, and predestination means that nothing occurs but that which God specifically has decreed will happen.

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No; "God cannot be tempted, neither tempteth he any man" (Jas 1:13). Instead, when the Serpent came to tempt Eve, God caused her to remember his command forbidding to eat of the tree of the knowledGen. of good and evil and of the penalty attached to disobedience! Thus, though God had decreed the Fall, in no sense was he the Author of Adam's sin, and at no point was Adam's responsibility impaired. Thus may we admire and adore the "manifold wisdom of God", in devising a way whereby his eternal decree should be accomplished, and yet the responsibility of his creatures be preserved intact.

And this? This is patent nonsense that serves to say 'Even though every single aspect of this event was tailor-made and set into motion [i]by God for the express purpose of causing this event, it's not God's fault. He didn't pull the trigger. That was Adam. God only designed the gun, the bullet, the guncotton in the bullet, the laws of physics that would make the shot fatal, the surroundings, the target, and the shooter all in such a way as to make the murder inevitable, in effect programming Adam to pull the trigger... but Adam's the one who actually did it..'

And that's a load of utter nonsense.

 

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Perhaps. a further word should be added concerning the decretive will of God, particularly in its relation to evil. First of all we take the high ground that, whatever things God does or permits, are right, just, and good, simply because God does or permits them. When Luther gave answer to the question, "Whence it was that Adam was permitted to fall, and corrupt his whole posterity; when God could have prevented him from falling, etc", he said, "God is a Being whose will acknowledges no cause: neither is it for us to prescribe rules to his sovereign pleasure, or call him to account for what he does. He has neither superior nor equal; and his will is the rule of all things. He did not thus will such and such things because they were right, and he was bound to will them; but they are therefore equitable and right because he wills them. The will of man, indeed, may be influenced and moved; but God's will never can. To assert the contrary is to undeify him" (De Servo, Arb. c/ 153).

 

To affirm that God decreed the entrance of sin into his universe, and that he foreordained all its fruits and activities, is to say that which, at first may shock the reader; but reflection should show that it is far more shocking to insist that sin has invaded his dominions against his will, and that its exercise is outside his jurisdiction: for in such a case where would be his omnipotency? No; to recognise that God has foreordained all the activities of evil, is to see that he is the Governor of sin: his will determines its exercise, his power regulates its bounds (Psa. 76:10). He is neither the Inspirer nor the Infuser of sin in any of his creatures, but he is its Master, by which we mean God's management of the wicked is so entire that, they can do nothing save that which his hand and counsel, from everlasting, determined should be done.

And again, more patent nonsense. God "foreordained all the activities of evil" and "is the Governor of sin", but is not the "Inspirer"? He is the DIRECT CAUSE, and more, because it is his Will, these actions are not evil.

And the rest of this continues in the same vein, attempting to justify and excuse God for His behavior, while disavowing His responsibility and ultimate authorship of evil. If God is the arbiter of all that happens, then he is irrefutably responsible for all the "evil" in the world.

Period.

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None of you will ever be wise as God, just give it up. Bow down to your MASTER!! I do, greatfully.

 

I'm glad you bow down to your MASTER. I am my own master, and though I do not believe in any deity or any afterlife, I will say this once, clearly for you:

I would rather spend an eternity in Hell than to become the thrall of such a deity as you espouse.

Your deity is a perverse, twisted, and sadistic tyrant, and were he real, I would dedicate my life to striving to find a way to utterly destroy him. However, he does not exist, and so I seem to have the edge there. And certainly I seem to have the edge over your pedantic and insipid "Author Pink".

 

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid