God Does answer prayers...Read this
Offline For the past months I've been out of work because my dad, who I'm in business with is very ill, and with lot of bills piling up. The biggest thing was the loan on my car. I've been getting pretty close to having it repossessed. So my wife and I tried for weeks to sell the car, and in the area that I live in, there isn't much interest even though it's a pretty nice car. To add insult to injury, our son broke his arm jumping off of furniture and racked up a 10,000 bill at the hospital for that. anyway, yesterday, Just when the car was maybe a day or so away from getting repo'd, someone smashed into us at a stop sign, noone was hurt but the car is totaled. So I won't have to worry about it anymore and it's going to be paid for. The irony is, being the bad christian that I am, i rarley ever pray, but the night before the accident I did pray for God to help us sell the car to relieve some of the debt. God didn't help us sell the car, which is fine because we are going to get more money this way. But he does answer prayers, and thats the truth. He seems to help the way he see fit, and on his time, but mostly, he'll find a way to help. just thought I'd pass that along for some inspiration.
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
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That's the post I was responding to already. The view you describe doesn't allow any parameters for determining whether prayer is answered or not. The gist of Lux's anecdote was that his prayer was addressed by a specific circumstance that presumably wouldn't have occurred otherwise. If that had not happened, though, by your logic, that too would have been deemed an answer. If a person starves to death face down in the dirt, a prayer on their lips, that's called answer. If you win the lottery, it's called an answer, if you find your keys it's an answer, if absolutely nothing happens it's an answer. There is nothing that won't be rationalized into such an answer. When any criteria for differentiating from an answer and a silence is removed, as it certainly is by this reasoning, any basis for calling it an answer is also disqualified.
What universes are you comparing ours to that suggests it would be some other way save for a god? I debated a Christian who'd said that his belief in Intelligent Design (a belief, not a science... just saying) was an inductive statement. I pointed out that he'd have to have a definite instance of something for a general assumption to be possible. And, similar to the prayer example, what differentiates something natural from something designed in the divine sense? Is there anything that could appear in the universe to suggest it wasn't designed?
Is there a circumstance in which you'd say his prayer wasn't answered?
The problem i have with you Lux, is that you make big bold statements like "god exists and thats the truth" and you might think you're being very riteous and good in doing so but actually it just shows stupidity.
You see, you don't actually know God exists do you? and think before you answer that, i for one am open minded enough to admit i don't know that God doesn't exist, because theres always the possibility tha everything i have used to disregard the idea of God could be wrong.
I know that religion seems to reward those with the most stubborn beleifs but that rigt there is where religion and intelligence divide, intelligence will always be the agnostic approach.
There is nothing more riteous than admitting how little we know.
The circumstance in which he's not as dumb as Lux.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
"The problem i have with you Lux, is that you make big bold statements like "god exists and thats the truth"
Well, if its a my belief that God exists and thats that, than I take comfort in the fact that I'mnot theonly "stupid moron" in the world. By calling me stupid because of what I believe, you're also calling billions of people on this planet stupid, no matter if we are Christian, muslim, or jews, we all believe this.
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
Yeah, imagine that - a whole bunch of Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc... all saying that they are right just because they believe they are right. Isn't that just grand! It's not like that could start any wars or anything.
You realize that religion is not the Cause of ALL wars right?
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
You realize that religion is the cause of most wars right?
I think you should do some research, most wars are NOT casued by religion. I could list many wars where religion had nothing do do with it. Modern wars, to begin with, like : WW2, Vietnam, (US) civil war, Korea, WW1, Spanish-American war, the Gulf war 1 and 2. And this is just a short list
And you can name.......the crusades. I think that about sums it up. Maybe throw in the jew/muslim war in the middle east, but then you're just pushing it.
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
I would think that a true religion of a loving god wouldn't cause any.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
I'm going to ignore your later comment about what specific wars were caused by what for the moment....
Where the hell did the idea that EVERY FUCKING WAR was caused by religion come out of my sarcastic statement "It's not like that could start any wars or anything."?
maybe I missed the point of your comment. But my last post was moslty directed at the guy who said "most wars are caused by religion"
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
Lux you lack of education is so alarming, no not every war is started by religion, but many wars have been, as well not every christian is a moron, however you are, and I will explain, when some one calls you a moron for your specific details for beliefs, they are not calling all christians/muslims/jews morons, they are calling you a moron because you believe it and have shown specific things, like your reasoning because prayers work in here, as such I call you a moron due to this.
Now back to the war thing, off topic as it is, the following wars where due and started by religious beliefs, The crusades which lasted from the 11th to 13th century, the French Wars of 1562 to 1598 (catholic vs protestants) The thirty years war 1618 - 1648 between german states, scandinavian states, and poland. The Saxon war from 772-802, oh yeah and a little conflict in afghanistan and Iraq....the one currently occuring, religious in nature (but i bet you will deny this one). There have been many conflicts as well that have been due to religion, many irish conflicts occurred between catholics and protestants (just due a little research regarding the orange march or orange walks in ireland), the Kosovo - serbian conflict, religious in nature (muslim vs christians) and if you bother to do a little more research you can find many conflicts that start with relgious beliefs. Then there are conflicts which the church helps out, such as the genocide in Rwanda, which the Roman catholic church in the area, actively participated in helping in the genocide of the tutsi, and as well a few other churches, the following have been convicted by the internation criminal tribunal: pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana of the seventh day adventist church, Theophister Mukakibibi and Maria Kisito, nuns where also convicted in actively participating in the genocide. Four days after the genocide began, the Catholic church issued a statement asking its followers to support the new government.
We can also start with WWII which christian beliefs at the time regarding jews help in the genocide, as well many pastors and clergy help in the genocide, especially in Poland.
As you can obviously see religions is't the cause of ALL wars, but it sure has had it's hand in MANY wars and conflicts around the world and helped in many a genocide as well. Hence why you are a moron, you don't bother doing any researching and stop making statements that even a mentally changelled kid can see right through.
As for your other statement why god didn't help others that without suffering blah blah blah. What the statement was that there are people in the world CURRENTLY suffering (which mean they are ACTIVELY suffering) and are praying for some relief of that suffering and never get it, yet you who can't pay for your car, god decides, yeah finiacial relief is better than relieving the pain and suffering of others. Which is why it's bullshit and rather a stupid statement to make.
Fellow Atheists,
I write this as a defense of Lux; although, he may not interpret it as such.
First, I agree with you assessment of this claim. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is an ancient and false way of viewing causation. In one who is undereducated, we should not be surprised to find this line of thought.
Second, we know Lux is undereducated because he is in a business with his father, which seems to be wholly dependent on his father. His father must be the master of some sort of trade. I will guess it is in some sort of construction. The master being injured along with the current economic situation for the construction industry explain Lux's financial difficulties. Clearly, Lux is some sort of journeyman and is learning his trade. Generally, the college graduate, or even someone who took college prep courses in high school, does not find it necessary to follow the guild system.
Third, Lux's photograph provides us more information than he realizes. In his photo, he shows us a partial profile. Note the jutting jaw and elongated nose. These traits are associated with what history has labeled the "Hapsburg jaw." In the case of the Hapsburg dynasty, the jaw and nose came about due to inbreeding and indicated decreasing mental competancy. I am not suggesting that Lux's ancestors were closely related. I merely suggest that the facial structure is often associated with a lack of mental acumen. Furthermore, the photograph shows us that his stature does not follow the golden ratio, which is universal in healthy humans.
So, in conclusion, I think we are being rather rough on this person. Clearly, he suffers from multiple disadvantages. He is physically malformed and manifests signs of significant cerebral defect and aberration. He is the victim of lack of schooling and is trapped in an ancient, unreasonable guild system. The very fact that he is able to function, albeit nominally, as a member of society is amazing in and of itself. We should praise him for overcoming so much and assist him in his further education.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
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"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
BTW, you mentioned my "lack of education" the funny thing is, I have just as much if not more education than your fearless leader, Brian Sapient. Stick that in your pompus pipe and smoke it
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
I'm really getting sick of this shit... I have degrees - hell, I have 10 years of full-time higher education under my belt but who the fuck cares. There's a difference between people who don't get a formal education but actually take time to read, learn, and think (it's called lifelong education) and people who thing they have their precious college degree so they can just sit back and relax with "educated" stamped on their forehead. Education is a process/journey that should never be marked "completed". Just because someone isn't traditionally educated doesn't mean they aren't educated at all.
Also, Sapient isn't our "fearless leader." He may not have any fear as far as the possibilty of going to hell is concerned, but since when is *anyone* a leader for atheism?
[edit: Lux, in the past 30 minutes or so you've posted all sorts of crap, such as "The Real Atheist Challenge" and "I no longer believe in god." It really makes me think you're just trying to get attention. Why don't you spend some of this ample time you obviously have addressing all the real issues others have brought up with your prayer argument in this thread.]
I'm just defending myself from the last guys post who verbally tried to rip me a new one. and BS is the laeder of this little club, is he not? And I agree with what you said about education. But according the the post above, I'm retarded or worse.
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
yeah, it's called bordom. I feel like I have addressed as best I could the questions regarding my op. I spend more time in here getting attacked instead of really dealing with said topics
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
When you say "dealing with said topics", what on earth are you expecting?
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
You did not address the following points:
1. correlation does not imply causation
2. The only way you can see a miracle is if you believe in them ahead of time.
3. Isn't it nice to have a life easy enough that you can actually believe you have a god who is your personal assistant?
4. Would a true believer even buy insurance of any kind? Wouldn't that be trying to protect yourself against God's will?
5. Lux, if your prayer resulted in a neutral or worse scenario, what would that suggest to you?
6. So you didn't pray for your father to get well? (and, can you verify your claim?)
7.So your "god" answer your prayer,but ignores the prayers of starving children in Africa? (and similarly, For every winner God is meant to make he will make at lease one loser. Isn't that nice of him?)
8. Why even post if you don't feel your arguments can hold up against scrutiny?
9. confirmation bias?
And these are just the issues I pulled from the first page.
Now, Fellow Atheists, this is why assisting the lower orders is so difficult. As predicted, this poor fellow has taken umbrage with my defense of him. What is worse, he is focusing on the lack of education, which was not the thrust of my point at all.
I will attempt to reword my thoughts so I might be understood by everyone, including the defendant. I am certain that had his genetic pool been stronger, his birth defects less severe, and his socio-economic homelife been improved; Lux would be a very rational, erudite member of society.
We can do little with regard to his genetics and whatever chemicals his mother contacted while he was in utero. For that matter, we can do nothing for his economic class or his inferior tutelage and erudition. We can, however, assist him in his quest now.
I believe that Lux recognizes that nature has been cruel. He knows that Atropos spun a thread for him that was ill-favored. He is understandably angry. He believed he would become an adult, have children, and stand on par with every other American; only, to discover that he has been hobbled by nature and chance.
So, he relies on a God to equalize the playing field. If he does not have it here, then he will surely have it in the next life. With so limited a cerebral cortex and understanding of reality, this conclusion should surprise none of us. Instead, we should look upon Lux as a case for intellectual welfare. Let us try to raise him from the quagmire into which fate so cruelly cast him.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
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I'm not just focusing on the education part of your post, it was a side note. If you'll look, I addressed your post. I put my commoents in Parentheses. You should pay more attention.
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
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Single click should be enough, buddy
Yeah, I got the message the first of the five times.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
yeah I hate this computer.
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Deludedgod,
Quant erat demonstratum.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
I just want to relate a personal experience of my own.
I have this poker game on my cell phone that I play when ever I go outside to pollute my lungs...
Well the cards A & K came up so I clicked the two of them and got a FULL HOUSE!!! AK is Alaska where I grew up and consider home. Well I think that was the Cell Phone God telling me to pack up my "Full house" and go home. I get so many hits when I choose AK over any other options, so it must be a sign right??? Well to add to that just yesterday I got a Straight when I clicked on the A & K cards!!!!
Put a Theist tag on my profile! I am now a devout follower of my Cell Phone God!!!!
We will be packing up the full house and heading straight to AK!!!!
God is GREAT!!!!
We must favor verifiable evidence over private feeling. Otherwise we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who would obscure the truth.
~ Richard Dawkins
Great, well lets check this out, your lack of education is based all your post and comments, you seem ignorant, and uneducated and act like it therefore no matter how much education you have, you sure are not applying it well, seems like money wasted. Your not debating the topics and just picking meaningless parts show your lack of education as well, you never respond to anything that anyone has against your points at all, you don't defend it well, which again seems like someone that is ignorant and or uneducated. As for Brian being my fearless leader, he is not my leader, i don't follow anyone, he happens to one of the founders of this website, but i do not follow him nor do i always agree with his views, but that's a different opinion, but back to you. Your statements do help you at all, your avoidance to the topics or points brought up don't help you either. Just shows us your a MORON, i cannot state this enough.
Kent Hovid had a PHD and HE'S A MAJOR FUCKING MORON. Your almost in his category, as no matter how much education you claim, you are not applying it well, and cannot even bother to debate the obvious flaws in your statements/arguments, on the contrary you avoid it at all costs it seems. Education does not gurantee that you actually know what you are talking about, it just means you paid attention in class. Knowledge, application, experience and understanding far exceed education.
So maybe one day you will actually have something far more to say than some stupid ass comment, and actually be able to debate a topic you start instead of avoid it.
yeah you keep complaining that I never address the issues, but all I've seen from you are insults and name calling.
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"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
FYI, at the end of the 'quote,' you're supposed to put a " [ / quote ]". Anyway, I pulled out the issues for you (above) and I'm not calling you names other than Lux so I'm waiting for your answers.
Lux, simple, if the insults annoy you that much, then start by taking care of the insult-free arguments that people like Shelley and SamSexton(next page) layed out.
belief doesn't have to be rock solid 100%, for instance, though i don't believe in God, the complexity of the issue requires me to accept that i don't have all the answers and therefore to say i knw the answer is pure ignorance and while i'm aware that in this community we do occasionally see people using bold statements of fact but i can assure you that when pressed on the matter they will accept that they do not know everything.
There are a lot of stupid people in the world. i get annoyed on a daily basis by people who make rash judgements when they think they know enough.
Wars aren't always started by religion but all wars are started by two opposing ideals and if people could be less stubborn.
Just admit that you don't know 100% that god exists, i'm not asking you to forfeit your belief, i just need that from you before we can talk about the issues you've raised
So i stand correct here, until you are able to discuss the points address by myself and others, to which you have address NONE of my points or others, i will continue to call you and uneducated MORON, because it is the right way to address someone like yourself that avoids his own topics and doesn't bother with debating and uses such stupid ideas to believe that god exists. It is not an insult, it's my opinion of you, how you act and of your statements, want to change that opinion, say something intelligent maybe, address the topics or points that are presented, don't avoid it.
Your comments on religious wars or wars started or continued because of religion, you said only the crusades, yet I was able to point out various wars and conflicts that were caused or in which religion had a hand in, you never addressed that, you never addressed the various other points EVERY ONE else had, you just insulted everyone else or avoid the topic all together. So far your an uneducated MORON. Don't like being called a moron, think this is an insult, well stop acting like one, and I won't call ya one.
Earlier this year I was passed up for promotion, even though I had been requesting it, I had a BA that dealt with that position, and I had to highest work turnover.
So I went ahead and tried to get a job in IT working for the local university that I had wanted for years.
I got called in very quickly to interview, and me being a rockhound decided to take a small piece of lapis lazuli with me.
They offered me the job three days later.
My rock is a lucky talisman!
I mean I can't possibly have gotten that job because I got a degree while also working full time, ensuring that I had several years experience in IT and a Bachelors that was required. Also me making myself very calm before the interview so I could perform well during it could not have possibly have helped.
My rock did it!
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
or maybe it was God. God doesn't force you to believe, but he loves you and cares about you. So maybe he just wanted you to think it was your "rock" that helped you, but it really God
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
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or maybe it was my rock. The rock doesn't force you to believe, but it loves you and cares about you. So maybe it just wanted you to think it was your "god" that helped you, but it really rock
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
fair enough. if thats what you "believe" even though I know you're FOS and most people that believe in God aren't making jokes about it, thats the difference
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
The difference? What is different?
I can believe in Scientology.
Does that make it true? Does my or your belief change reality?
There is no difference between saying god did it or a rock did it. Reality stays the same and remains decidedly unimpressed at our beliefs.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
who is to say what reality is? Do you get to set the rules?
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
The people who don't think that God answers prayers by totalling your car instead of fixing the actual problem that's draining money.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.