Thoughts on "Design" (for atheists & theists)

Mental Eclipse
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Thoughts on "Design" (for atheists & theists)

Over the past 2 years, I have thought deeply about the possibility of a creator. I was raised a Christian and leaving religion was the hardest thing I’d ever done. I’d love to know the absolute truth regarding the existence of a creator, however I know it’s impossible to prove or disprove such a being though science or logic (at least to my knowledge). I’ve always seemed to fall into the atheistic standpoint; however my previous religious beliefs have perhaps permanently effected my perception of the world.

 

I was thinking one day about the existence of this world and the old “Evidence for God by Design” argument popped into my head. I’ve always thought it to be one of the worst arguments in support of a creator. I never bought into it; however there was always something that kept me open to the possibility that this world was designed. I never really knew what it was until recently, and I think I finally found the right words to explain my thoughts. I’d be very interested in hearing what both theists and atheists think about this, and I’d appreciate anything that you anyone has to say. I’ve learned a lot from this website since I discovered it a year ago, and I’m hoping that I’ll be able to get some interesting feedback from the members of this website.

 

The “argument form design” states that we can see evidence for a designer though the natural world. I’m sure most of the people on this site already know the flaws in this argument so I’m not going to go into it. Anyhow, I’ve never actually been very interested in the natural world. Honestly, I’m more of a nerdy type who spends most of the time working with computers and technology. Scientific and technological innovation is the most interesting thing to me, and I’ve always been amazed at the achievements we as humans have accomplished. Even before modern science, people were working to improve upon the natural world and discovering better ways of understanding our existence. Creative thinking and the drive for understanding have always fascinated me about humans, and I’ve often wondered about the reasons for our level of “intellectual and creative ability” in comparison to every other organism on this planet.

 

When looking at the amazing achievements of mankind, it makes me wonder why humans have such remarkable abilities of thought beyond that of all other known organisms. It seems we have surpassed the abilities necessary for survival and have acquired intellectual abilities far beyond that of other organisms since the earliest historical evidences of modern man. What could the possible reasons be for this extreme level of intellectual superiority? What in our history could have led us to achieving our current way of thinking? I know that both creative and logical thinking had its place in our evolutionary history, but the level of thought that we have “far” exceeds that needed for our own survival. While all other current living organisms seem to have adapted specifically to surviving in this world, humans seemed to have surpassed all the essential means for continuing our species. It seems to me, that the achievements of human kind reveal some kind of “gap” between us and all other organisms.

 

I think it’s very obvious that this “gap” exists, and I’ve been wondering what could have caused this gap. It seems to me that “something” must have triggered this event in our evolutionary history. Whether or not this “gap” was the result of natural occurrences in nature, it provokes the idea that we as humans are somehow “different” then all other organisms in terms to how we evolved and why we are the way we are.

 

Of course, unless we can prove that this “gap” is anything else then an occurrence in our evolutionary history, it could never be considered evidence for a supernatural occurrence (god of the gaps…ect). What kind of natural occurrences could have occurred to make us humans so “different” from all other animals? The idea that we humans progressed the way we did in comparison to all other organisms seems to point to a very extraordinary event in our evolutionary history. This event could have potentially “changed” the way humans evolved, or at least separated our evolutionary path from every other organism on this planet.

 

Could “any” natural explanation (that we are aware of now) account for all this? If the solution is indeed part of a natural occurrence, I can’t personally think of any natural event that could have provoked this kind of massive change.

 

What do modern scientists think about this massive difference in our level of thinking and psychological developmental compared to other organisms? Our personalities, “creativity”, “innovative nature”, and “intellectual ability” seem to be beyond the explanations of modern science (at least to my knowledge). I’m sure there are ideas out there that provide possible answers to this question but I haven’t had the opportunity to read/hear them.

 

I’m not implying that this idea provides any kind of rational reason to believe the world is designed, but it’s always kept the “possibility” of a designer alive in my mind for the past few years. I just can’t imagine any natural event that could have caused this change to occur. Even if it “could” have occurred naturally, I still have a hard time believing that the modern world (that humans have built) could be the result of a simple event in the course of our evolutionary history. If it’s not design….it gives a great illusion of design (at least to me).


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It is the illusion of great

It is the illusion of great difference that gives the illusion of design. In reality, humans are really not that different from their closest ancestors. We just think we are. We are not the only animals that pass the mirror test. In fact, we belong to a group of organisms so closely related that they are the least diverse in the whole phylogeny of all of life. What really separates us from other organisms, apart from larger brain size (there is a directly proportional relation between cognitive capacity and brain size) is language, and we can naturally explain the evolutionary arising of language in terms of Hox Gene alterations in neurogenesis in utero development of ganglion clusters and the portioning into the the parietal and Temporal Lobes. The amount of research done on evolutionary cognitive neuroscience of language is enormous.

It is interesting that you bring up “enormous differences” between human cognition and other animals because really…we are truly vastly less different from our kin than organisms at a lower level in the phylogeny. It is a basic principle of tiered structures that the foundation will have a greater array of diversity.

There are vastly more fundamental constraints and requisites on physiology, cell dynamics and anatomy in a multicellular organism than in a single-celled one. As a result, Prokaryota are vastly more diverse than multicellular Eukaryota, and are also much more diverse than Single-celled eukaryote (since Eukaryota are much more complex than prokaryota, and single-celled Eukaryota, in turn, are much more diverse than multicellular Eukaryota). This is evident if we examine the base-pair span relationship in different domains of life:

Range of Genome Size in Nucleotide Pairs

Bacteria

5x10^5 to 1x10^7

Fungi

1x10^7 to 1x10^9

Protists

3x10^7 to 9x10^11

Plants

1x10^8 to 5x10^11

Insects

1x10^8 to 5x10^8

Mollusks

5x10^8 to 5x10^11

Cartiligenous fish

2x10^9 to 1x10^10

Bony Fish

5x10^8 to 3x10^9

Amphibians

7x10^8 to 9x10^10

Reptiles

1.5x10^9 to 5x10^9

Birds

7x10^8 to 1.5x10^9

Mammals

1.5x10^9 to 5x10^9

 

The majority of changes between multicellular organisms are quantitative for this reason. The  mutations in HBOX1 and the other neurological homoeboxes that separate us from our immediate ancestors.

Also, you are forgetting that there are 22 transitions between the human, and his cognitively closest still living relative: The simians: The Pan genus. You are forgetting that we are called The Last Hominid for a reason, we are the last in line of the Homo genus. There were links, morphologically distinct organisms between the two, but they are now extinct. There was no quantum jump from monkey to human…I  don’t see what you are getting at.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Mental Eclipse
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Thanks for the responce

Thanks for the responce Deludegod. I am still very new in my understanding of evolution and you provided some really great info. I did not know that humans were so similar to other closely related organisms.

The other point I was adressing was the idea that we have so many intellectual abilities that are not nessisary for our own survival. Do you feel that other organisms have similar abilities? Also, are you aware of any potential reasons for this?


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[disclaimer]I'm not an

[disclaimer]I'm not an expert [/disclaimer]

But it's my understanding that when language and culture developed another factor became key. Think about that guy you see at the bar who is able to sweet-talk his way to the girl at the bar. Their is a certain kind of intelligence that is required to do this, and as a result people with this intelligence will take more women back to their caves/huts/houses/back-seats/etc.

Also, people who are more intelligent, successful, and so forth tend to have had more children throughout history (the fact that this is not the case anymore makes me curious about the future--we've reached the point where even the poorer and less-educated can support large families). Many women want men who are able to provide, and providing is one function of intelligence or various kinds.

Thus, intelligence is selected in communities of humans.

Now, I am aware that Dostoevsky has written about how there is a difference between the thinking man and the man of action. This ditinction manifests in the nerdy/geeky type that gets less girlfriends while the jocks and the silver-tongued salesmen get many. This, however, is a more recent trend in communities and has hardly had any time to have an evolutionary effect, I would guess.

In general, I would say that as we gained the ability to absract information, our ability to think of new things in new ways exploded exponentially. Exactly why it happened is something I don't know. but once it did happen, that those with the ability survived better is not surprising.

Shaun

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Intelligence is sexy, Ohhhh

Intelligence is sexy, Ohhhh baby look at the size of my intellect Wink

Good question, unfortunately my favorite TV program has just started,

So I'll just point you right direction, no1 lookup prisoners dilemma

 

 


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I read a book called "How

I read a book called "How the Mind Works" by Stephen Pinker a while back that talks a lot about this.  As I say, it's been a while now so forgive me if I can't recall everything.

I assume you are talking about all the extra stuff our brains can do that isn't neccesary for our immediate survival, like putting a man on the moon, detecting planets we may never be able to reach, constructing buildings that you can hardly see the top of, complicated mathematics, poetry, art etc?

Yes, these are all impressive things, but even looking at the most 'basic' hunter-gatherer communities, life is far from simple.  They are examples using human cunning on a daily basis to solve problems of staying alive. 

 Correct me if I'm wrong, but the more recent pre-human hominid fossils had pretty similar sized brains to us.  It just so happens that the kind of mind that is good for solving those hunter-gatherer lifestyle problems, is good for the other more abstract problems.  Then you add language, and a while later you add recording of that language, and all of a 'sudden', you are able to go beyond basic instincts and build upon the knowledge of more than just yourself, but of your ancestors as well.


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Well I know how you feel

Well I know how you feel and the thoughts that you might have. I wish to add a few thoughts myself. I know how it is to have a lot before you and not sure how all of this fits together into one culmination. I am a Creationist, more specifically I am what one might call an Old Earth Theologian (as seen in the book by David Snoke). I also enjoy studying, while working on my degree in theology, science—physics, astrophysics, quantum physics, that sort of thing. When I read about superstrings all the way to black holes, I see creation that is pointing toward God, toward the Creator. I have also studied biology, and I am very familiar with the theory of evolution (both macro evolution and micro evolution). In fact, before becoming a Christian, I had for years been a supporter for evolution. When I became a Christian, and yes it took God to take me kicking and screaming to His truth, I began re-examining all that I understood (to the best of my ability), and I saw the natural wonders of the universe in a whole new light. The more I study the sciences (in fact one of my friends is teaching me the mathematical portion of physics, something that I am having a lot of enjoyment with), the more I appreciate how…as Scripture says…nature naturally points in revelation to God. So what kind of God does this science, at least for me, point toward?

As I study science, as I examine both astrophysics and quantum physics, I see that there is a God. The reality of this universe, a universe amongst many other universes (as the theoretical physics muses toward), is not mere accident or chance—there is design, there is development, there is structure, there is correlation. Yet there is the problem that defies mere simplistic exploration—who is this Creator, this God? That there is a Creator. I go to history and I go to my studies in Christianity, from my study of the Old Testament, through to the New Testament, and then through the Church History. I have, in my days before becoming a Christian, naturally tried to read much of what I could on other points of view, from the study of atheism through the study of Wicca. I never found rationality and understanding and comprehension in any of these things, in fact none of these gave a realistic foundation. When I came to Christianity, I found that foundation. Just as God, through Christ, through the Logos that is Christ Jesus (the true Logos that only the Greek consideration of the logos was only a shadow thereof), shows Himself through special revelation (that is, revelation in human history as seen in Scripture), so too is this the same God that shows Himself through natural reality. As Scripture shows to us, God is a God who rules a vast and majestic Kingdom.

What I have found is indeed a bridge between Natural Revelation and Special Revelation, God’s revelation of Himself through nature and God’s revelation of Himself through what we have in Scripture, and that bridge is bound with the power of purpose. There is indeed a purpose to the universe, from the stars and the planets to the nebulas to the black holes. There is a purpose for man, a purpose for life, and a purpose for what we do and where we aim ourselves. This universe we are in, from the smallest of quarks to the largest of galactic clusters, has the purpose that is God’s Kingdom. God created the universe just as an artist paints a painting or a sculptor sculpts a statue. And this masterpiece has a purpose. For my own simple self, as I study what all I study, I see the purpose flowing. That might seem a bit poetic and philosophic, but that is how it works itself before me. And all of this flows toward the Cross, toward the Resurrection, God’s ultimate form of Revelation—a revelation toward our lives, our meaning, our purpose, and our hopes. Whether or not I am agreed with, something I doubt I am, still I think that the more I study the sciences and the theologies, the more I have an appreciation toward all that there is around me. And the more I appreciate, the more I am enraptured by the beauty of creation that does indeed have a Creator.


Rev_Devilin
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Were was, oh

Were was I, oh

 

Rev_Devilin wrote:

Intelligence is sexy, Ohhhh baby look at the size of my intellect Wink

Good question, unfortunately my favorite TV program has just started,

So I'll just point you right direction, no1 lookup prisoners dilemma

Here we go, ops the thing about prisoners dilemma, isn't entirely relevant, I just think it's good to know about these things Smiling

Intelligence one could point to squirrels octopus parakeets, and many more inquisitive problem-solving intellects beyond the need for survival, evolution favors the curious intellect,

The bowerbirds for abstract art,

http://montereybay.com/creagrus/bowerbirds.html

This is way beyond the need for survival, evolution works beyond the need for survival, elephants don't need tusks for survival, but the bigger your tusks the more attractive you are, and you'll look more frightening to rivals, evolution favors unnecessarily large tusks, up to the point were you become hunted for your large tusks, now evolution favors no tusks, and male elephants with no tusks are becoming quite prevalent

But the thing that makes human beings unique, is .........

Well we are not that unique, the prehensile thumb for tool using, isn't unique, inquisitive problem-solving intellect, isn't unique, even abstract art, isn't unique, complex language dolphins, and so on

ShaunPhilly, pointed out the real difference that has emerged, language and writing, our unnecessarily large intellect, is just favorable at the moment, should we as a species become hunted for this, then stupidity would become even more prevalent Smiling

 

 

 


Hambydammit
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A good book on the

A good book on the subject:

 How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature  
The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature

 

Basically, science, art, and all the other things we see as unnecessary for survival are biproducts.  In other words, the intelligence developed beyond survival because females decided that intelligence was sexy.  Once men realized that intelligence was sexy, it was natural to try to do things that are not necessarily sexual in nature, but that display intelligence.

It's impossible to condense this whole book into a paragraph, and it's been several years since I read it, but female selection, while it may not be the complete answer, is certainly a substantial part of it.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Sir Valiant for...
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I find it a little

I find it a little disturbing how the genetic code is cut down to analogies like "if enough monkeys were bashing on enough typewriters, eventually one would bash out Hamlet." (That's actually a quote to start a segment in my psycholoy textbook.)

 Deludedgod did the same thing when he gave the relative quantities of genetic structures in various organisms.

Anyone who has been through high school biology (and I took AP Bio) ought to be able to tell you so many things that need to be going on at the same time in any living cell that a simple line of text does not do the actual application of the genetics justice.

It's like saying that if you hang enough windchimes out on your porch, eventually they will chime out a Bach Cantata.

 That isn't going to happen.

I can see a virus arising by pure chance in the proper environment, seeing as that a virus only has the most rudimentary of organic structures. BUT viruses are not alive and depend entirely on a host metabolism. Anything beyond a virus needs more than a few "pages" of genetic code: it needs the complex polyphonic structure of a symphony.

EDIT: Please note that I never once used the words "intelligent," "information," or "design." I challenge the rebuttal to not have "chance," "random," "necessity,"  or "natural selection" in it.

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"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron

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deludedgod
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Quote:

Quote:

Anyone who has been through high school biology (and I took AP Bio) ought to be able to tell you so many things that need to be going on at the same time in any living cell that a simple line of text does not do the actual application of the genetics justice.

Well, obviously it is slightly more complex than that! I would know considering I'm a geneticist. The table, which you did not understand, was simply to show that in terms of genetic diversity, the mammals were the least diverse and least phylogenically distint group of organisms.

But all processes in the cell in their entirety can be derived from the genetic control system in one way or another. That includes regulation, intracellular vescicular traffic, enzymatic pathways, signal transduction, transcription, translation, ion transport.

Quote:

pure chance

Where have we been discussing pure chance here? Genes are ultra-high fidelity, and there are thousands of things to consider, methylation, acetyl-methy-carboxyl tails of histones in Eukaryotic DNA, homologous duplication, modular domains, Heterochromatic and Euchromatic condensation, the position variegation effect, Homeobox sets, chromosomal polymorphism, inversion of modular domains, exaptation, the arrangement of introns and exons, regulatory intersperals, oscillating genetic switches, gene regulatory node pathways, etc ad infinitum. Given the monodirectional nature of evolution, mutation is forced in one direction. This is simple ecology mathematics. Genetic mutations are occurring in vast numbers all the time, are being passed on to progeny. The deleterious ones are weeded out by ribosomal mechanisms and then by natural selection. The good ones are being propagated. Now, this may be (or usually is) occurring for many different traits simultaneously over many different organisms in the same population, but the whole process simply converges in the eventual refinement of phenotypes into better symbiosis with the environment the organism is inhabiting . Evolution is a vast process with a huge amount of information to work with because they are so many organisms. This is why it works. It simply is the struggle for existence of biology which forces the random replications of non-random replicators in a direction where the random replications which may occasionally produce a beneficial trait will be propagated, and as a result, beneficial traits in the random replicators such that the organisms whose phenotype they express may become better adapted to the environment. The result? The genome is improving in continuum such that the codes held within form increasingly more diverse and complex and ingenious methods of exploiting the environment. As a result, as time passes, the diversity of the overall genome (by which I mean the genomes of all organisms in the biosphere) increases too (since it is expanding in size), and since the phylogenic tree depends on branching off, the variations and diversity of biological structures such that more and new ways of exploiting the environment in the struggle for resources amplifies exponentially.

Consider a simple example: Kinases are protein phosphorylating class of signal transductors which control a large amount of proteins and amplify many, many signals, also acting as signal-integrating proteins by anchoring to the extracellular matrix junction and relaying signals from the membrane to the Endoplasmic reticulum and the nucleus. Instead of a ligand reciprocal/cooperative Allosteric binding site to control the action of the protein in question, a certain side chain (always a threonine, serine or tyrosine) is phosphorylated, which activates or deactivates the protein. The cyclic nature of kinase loop functions is very similar to that of GTPases. The largest superfamily of kinase is a simple monodomainal kinase called the Ras protein. As evolutionary mechanisms took course and organisms became more complex, a wider range of transductors became required, which evolve in lockstep with other evolving functions, a process called coevolution. This has been indicated by the fact that the Ras like domain has since become integrated into totally different proteins, and created entire classes of kinases simply by joining the Ras to many other domains throughout the course of evolution to create novel protein combinations. The branching of various kinase families that results from this is fully consistent with molecular clock tracking of the divergence rate of the amino acids (recall noise mutations). Which means whole families of kinases have been generated at different times in the evolutionary process by duplication and divergence. We now have many, many families of kinases including Cdc7, PDGF receptors, TGF-Beta receptors, Ca2+ dependent kinase, CdK integrators (which include a large range of Cdk including Cdk2 and Cdk3), Src kinases, KSS1, the list goes on and on.

The example given above is one of the genetic mechanisms for the generation of new genetic innovation, the example of polyploidy, although, due the inverse nature of physiological and anatomic complexity with possible variation, we must also consider evolutionary developmental changes, as in the GRNP, as outlined, or Hox genes, PV, chromosomal translocation, recombination of modules, but also recombination which changes morphological structure due to the pattern of the genes in the development pathway being of similiar importance to the actual base-pair contents of the genes themsleves, and the rate at which such genes are transcribed and translation, by means of other non-associated change like spliceosomes. It is also extremely likely that heterochromatin shifts, in addition to altering by PVE, have a direct effect on the Gene regulatory pathway since the rates of expression are significantly lower to none when the material is packaged into heterochromatin.  

Quote:
 

I can see a virus arising by pure chance in the proper environment, seeing as that a virus only has the most rudimentary of organic structures.

Absolutely not, no way. If viruses are the descendants of some proto-biological structure (which is obviously problematic since they require hosts to survive), then whatever process formed them could not be chance. But that is irrelevant. Under discussion is not how biological life arose, but rather that once it arose how it evolved. ToE does not deal in primordial biochemistry, before the rise of Prokaryota. There is not enough information at present. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Sir Valiant for...
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...WOW. Could you give me a

...WOW. Could you give me a few more paragraph breaks for my neurons to relax in? 

Quote:
Genes are ultra-high fidelity, and there are thousands of things to consider, methylation, acetyl-methy-carboxyl tails of histones in Eukaryotic DNA, homologous duplication, modular domains, Heterochromatic and Euchromatic condensation, the position variegation effect, Homeobox sets, chromosomal polymorphism, inversion of modular domains, exaptation, the arrangement of introns and exons, regulatory intersperals, oscillating genetic switches, gene regulatory node pathways, etc ad infinitum.

I actually understand most of that thanks to AP. I admit total ignorance about oscillating genetic switches, but I know what 3' and 5' ends of genes are.

To be perfectly blunt, this was totally irrelevent. I already know that genes have a high fidelity, and a 40 word paragraph in response to two is a bit much at best.

I have my thoughts about what this paragraph was intended to do, and I do believe intellectual bullying is inneffective on this particular theist.

To return to the subject, you agree with my own argument that a cell is very "polyphonic" by nature and then add a spin on gene fidelity. 

 Far from rebuttaling me, your post actually reinforces my position amidst that sea of jargon.

Thank you.  

 

 

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"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron

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Quote: ..WOW. Could you

Quote:

..WOW. Could you give me a few more paragraph breaks for my neurons to relax in?

Sorry. I either write very rapidly or I use something I wrote before in response to someone else, so I tend to forget Paragraphing. I'll try to remember.

Quote:

 To be perfectly blunt, this was totally irrelevent. I already know that genes have a high fidelity, and a 40 word paragraph in response to two is a bit much at best.

But I could not actually discern a point or a claim which would challenge evolutionary biology in your original post, so I was shooting in the dark.

Quote:

  Far from rebuttaling me, your post actually reinforces my position amidst that sea of jargon.

Do tell, what position is that? Cells are polyphonic in the mataphorical sense, but every cellular function can be derived from genetic code. Without any known exception, all changes in biological life are derived from changes in the genetic code. Eventually, we can reduce, in effect, every single distinction between any two organisms to the genetic code. That is the foundation of biology and I do not see how you challenged it. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Sir Valiant for...
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Quote:Cells are polyphonic

Quote:
Cells are polyphonic in the mataphorical sense, but every cellular function can be derived from genetic code. Without any known exception, all changes in biological life are derived from changes in the genetic code. Eventually, we can reduce, in effect, every single distinction between any two organisms to the genetic code. That is the foundation of biology and I do not see how you challenged it. 

I challenged the rectilinear comparison of a genetic code to a written work (like my psy textbook said) in exchange for my own "musical score" analogy.

It all boils down to degrees of freedom. In writing (or in a play like Hamlet is) there is only one dimention to vary in. Text, like language, is a straight line of concept.

This is not the case in either cells or music. Cells have a genetic code which can transcribe and translate any gene into a protein at any time (as dictated by the genome's controls, so theoretically, the degrees of freedom of a cell is only limited by the number of genes it has.)

In a similar way, music is only limited in the degrees of expressive freedom by the skill and intent of the composer. It can have as many different parts as the composer wants.

This was related to the topic because the topic is on intelligent design, and a critique of an analogy in this matter is related.

However, I fail to see how listing the "gene fidelity" mechanisms of genes is related to the subject of design applied to genetics. If anything, it suggests that the "maker" of the genetic code (God, natural selection, whatever, the outcome effect is the same) has a "philosophy" of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" (in the case of natural selection, metaphorically.)

EDIT: I use metaphores, you use jargon.

The purpouse of Language is to be as clear as possible. I use metaphore and analogy because it conveys the most meaning to the most people.

Jargon, however, such as your paragraph on gene fidelity, conveys an incredible ammount of information, but only to some individuals who are fully aware of what the jargon means. To a layman such as myself (I may be educated reasonably, but I am still a layman) it means virtually nothing and is perhaps best thought of as a means of intellectual bullying.  

"Truth is the cry of all, but the game of the few." George Berkeley
"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron

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Monkeys bashing typewriters

Monkeys bashing typewriters IS an odd comparison in this discussion.  However, it would seem more fitting if you added a rule where when the monkeys got a word right... it was saved in place, and would continue to mash until it "found" the next word..  You'd be able to match into Hamlet much faster.

Or like how your odds of drawing any particular five cards in poker are pretty low, but if you're allowed to keep one you want and keep drawing, your odds of drawing what you "need" greatly increases each time.  

Codes that "work"  (for whatever purpose) continue to keep working and survive through replication. Sorta like keeping your good poker cards and trying for another draw on the next mutation you "need."


deludedgod
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Quote: I challenged the

Quote:

I challenged the rectilinear comparison of a genetic code to a written work (like my psy textbook said) in exchange for my own "musical score" analogy.

That is fair. But I never compared the genome to a written work. The genome functions more like a Turning machine. It has three functions, when we reduce the complexities of the switches, nodes and such, down to three things:

1) A direct linear represntation of the raw material of biological life, polypeptides

2) Operates a feedback loop with environmental factors and a set of control systems (the raw materials for which are determined by the genes themselves) which controls the rate at which the products of the genome are produced (the rates of transcription and translation). 

3) Stimulus from the environment also determines when such raw materials are produced. 

Therefore, the genome functions more like a microprocessor than a language

Also, in multicellular organisms

4) Due to cell differentiation, it must also be decided where such materials are produced, in addition to the other two considerations (when and rate of production). The result is that multicellular organisms have complex sets of nodes and pathways where genes control each other, switch each other on and off, and such.

This is a better description.

Quote:

 It all boils down to degrees of freedom. In writing (or in a play like Hamlet is) there is only one dimention to vary in. Text, like language, is a straight line of concept.

Indeed, but if we extend what I suggested above, the genome is not rectilinear, it has multiple dimensions. Three dimensions for autonomous singe-celled life (what, when, rate of production) and four dimensions for multicellular organisms (what, when, where, rate of produciton). Of course, this is an extreme oversimplification, but it holds.

Quote:

 However, I fail to see how listing the "gene fidelity" mechanisms of genes is related to the subject of design applied to genetics. If anything, it suggests that the "maker" of the genetic code (God, natural selection, whatever, the outcome effect is the same) has a "philosophy" of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" (in the case of natural selection, metaphorically.)

No. This is not how changes in the genetic code work at all. Indeed, if this were how changes over generations in genomics work, then we would all be single-celled, since there would be no variation. Genes are very high fidelity. THey are not perfect fidelity. And within that room for the innovation by the mechanisms I described, we have the processes by which a new phenotype may arise: Mutation. There is no teleology behind evolution, this misunderstanding is common. Rather, there are only simple mathematics. The analogy we could use is not "don't fix it if it works" but rather "It changes. If the change is deleterious, it will not propogate. If the change is benificial, it will propogate. If the change is neutral, no matter."

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Positive feedback loop

The degree of human intelligence currently observed i the result of what we could call a positive feedback loop.  Biologically modern humans evolved about 50,000 years ago, by this I mean there's reason to believe there was a very sudden and marked increase in their cognitive abilities, many biologists think this was due to adaptations in vocal chords that allowed for speech.  Now humans could more easily share information, and in greater detail.  At around this time humans spread themselves all across africa and eurasia.  Consider now that humans had moved away from tree dwelling, and humans are not the fastest, strongest, or best armed animals in the animal kingdom.  Our intelligence was a necessary adaptation to our new environments, available food, and preditors.  Human intelligence in the beginning was all about preditor evasion and food collection.  Back before we developed agriculture we had to maintain a nomadic lifestyle.  Durring that time an area could only support so many people.  When an area could no longer support what was there we spread to new areas, but in doing so we were forced to adapt to new environments, new predators, new food sources.  We had to adapt brains capable of allowing dynamic adaptation to environmental changes.

Things really started speeding up, though, shortly after the development of language.  Here humans spread across the planet reaching the americas as long ago as 13,000 years ago.  10,000 years ago in mesopotamia we see the earliest signs of agriculture.  Starting with grasses like wheat we see evidence for the beginnings of plant domestication.  The realization that plants such as wheat could be domesticated was not a sudden realization.  Very likely these plants were already a source of food for our ancestors in mesopotamia, at some point some of them realized that when the seeds fall into the ground a new wheat plant grows there.  At this point our ancestors were already semi sedentary, due to the herding of sheep which had become a ready and very useful source of food.  It was probably the discovery of the domesticability of sheep which lead our ancient ancestors to consider the possibility of the domestication of wheat.  This proved to be a much more difficult process.  At first the wheat cultivated by the first people to make the attempt was just wild wheat being grown and protected by man.  But this was a necessary first step.  After this we started selecting for certain traits in the wheat we produced which were beneficial for us, but would not have been beneficial for the wheat in the wild.  This was a natural next step, as it was clear how these traits were beneficial, and it was probably at first accidental that we first selected them.  But humans, as most animals, are capable of reasoning cause and effect.  If we plant the seed of a plant that did something we liked, its offspring are more likely to do what we like.  By this time, of course, our ancestors had started trying to domesticate other plants, and it really wasn't until we had started producing enough food through domestication to feed an entire hunter gatherer society that we settled down and became fully sedentary.  One this happened, and our agricultural societies started operating at full force, it freed people up to do things other than gather food.  This is where civilization came from.  This is where the positive feedback loop which lead to our observed intelligence, really kicked into high gear.

Once we were producing surplus food through farming it freed people up to be administrators, it freed people up to specialize.  But in reality it all started from us being only intelligent enough to survive.  We pushed the adaptation of our brain beyond this through this positive feedback loop.  Intelligence was selected for because intelligence increased an individuals chances of survival.  Then, even more significantly, once we became sedentary, intelligence contributed to the good of the society, so the intelligent in society were the most powerful and influential.  For that reason in the sedentary societies the intelligent were selected for.  Brain development was further stimulated by things to learn, and a mechanism (language) to learn them more easily.

So I think it would be fair to say that our apparent level of intelligence being way beyond what we need to survive is due to an initially advantageously high level of intelligence, which was still then only sufficient for survival, but which created for us a form of positive feedback loop, which was helped along by other environmental factors, such as our wider habitat range.  Then eventually pushed over the edge by language.

It's also helpful to keep in mind that in the very beginning we were competing with other hominids for territory and food.  This was another feedback loop source.  as they adapted to our survival strategies we had to adapt to theirs.