Theists: Which Do You Believe is More Reliable?

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Theists: Which Do You Believe is More Reliable?

Tuberculosis: Given scientific advances in current times this disease is curable in the early stage, untreated this is always deadly.
You find out you have TB.... You:
A) Sit home and pray that God cures you.
or
B) You head over to the nearest facility that specializes in TB treatment in order to be cured.
Hmmm... Which do you believe will work?...
If B: Perhaps you trust physical, reliable, science more than mythology....
You can only choose ONE.


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I don't pray to my God. So

I don't pray to my God.

So B.


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LosingStreak06 wrote: I

LosingStreak06 wrote:

I don't pray to my God.

So B.


Exactly what purpose does your God serve?


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AtheistAviB

AtheistAviB wrote:
LosingStreak06 wrote:

I don't pray to my God.

So B.


Exactly what purpose does your God serve?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Could you define "purpose," and explain its relevence to the condition of being a deity?


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LosingStreak06

LosingStreak06 wrote:
AtheistAviB wrote:
LosingStreak06 wrote:

I don't pray to my God.

So B.


Exactly what purpose does your God serve?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Could you define "purpose," and explain its relevence to the condition of being a deity?


Well, for what reason do you extend your reality to include deities?
What purpose does it serve in your reality, assuming it even has one; keep in mind that purpose can be anywhere from simply existing, to actively participating...
Although, given you believe in some deity, I assume something must have happened to elicit such a belief (perhaps parents telling you or a misinterpretation of some event).
That said...
Why believe in it?


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AtheistAviB wrote: Well,

AtheistAviB wrote:
Well, for what reason do you extend your reality to include deities?
 Well, because I find my reality more interesting that way. 
Quote:
What purpose does it serve in your reality, assuming it even has one; keep in mind that purpose can be anywhere from simply existing, to actively participating...
 Well, It certainly exists, but aside from that, I couldn't attribute any "purpose" to It other than that. 
Quote:
Although, given you believe in some deity, I assume something must have happened to elicit such a belief (perhaps parents telling you or a misinterpretation of some event).
 You could say that. 
Quote:
Why believe in it? 

Because not believing in It is less fun for me.


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I won't get TB because i'll

I won't get TB because i'll be wearing my "N95 particulate respirator" that has been fit tested to my face.

 BTW multiple choice is pretty lame... this question is like asking someone "ok, you can either look both ways before crossing the road, or, pray the semi towing 20,000 lbs of concrete won't kill you when it hits you at 50mph" The answer any Christian with half a brain and google will give you: see Matthew 4:5-7.


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Most people who adhere to

Most people who adhere to the Abrahamic relgions would choose C) Both of the above. Why can one not ask God for assistance as well as asking a doctor. You bring up the point. "What good is a God without prayer" (paraphrasing). Ask that question to Buddhists, Hindus, pagans, who often perform meditation, rituals, and/or ceremonies but do not necessarily pray.


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Quote: Most people who

Quote:
Most people who adhere to the Abrahamic relgions would choose C) Both of the above.

Difficulty: This wasn't an option. 

The choices were pray or go to the hospital, with the condition that you could pick only one or the other and not both. In Boolean terms, PRAY XOR MEDICINE

However I do see the point you're trying to make - that most Abrahamic theists would get the necessary medical treatment while also praying for a return to good health, and then attributing the success of the medical treatment to God instead of the doctors. Happens too frequently, and usually goes like this:

My doctor told me that I had cancer and that without surgery, the cancer would spread and I would die within six months. So I had the surgeries and cancer treatment, pills, chemotherapy, the whole nine yards. 

 The cancer didn't go away. I prayed to God to cure my cancer. Within a week, my doctor told me that my cancer was in remission and that I should make a full recovery.

It wasn't the medicine that cured me, it was God. He heard my most sincere prayer, and He restored me to health! This is proof of the power of prayer!

Sadly, there are those who take this line of thinking to the next step and forego medical treatment entirely, including (but not limited to) Jehova's Witnesses and Christian Scientists. Such is the result of thinking there's an invisible sky fairy out there going out of his way to make you live a good life, and that following his teachings will result in living with him in magical happy land for a hundred billion trillion years.

 

/Catholic atheist

//slashies! 

Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.


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Dude, how do you know you

Dude, how do you know you have TB if you don't go to the doctor to find out first? If you "find out" you have TB you're already there.

 

 

 

 

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Eloise wrote: Dude, how do

Eloise wrote:

Dude, how do you know you have TB if you don't go to the doctor to find out first? If you "find out" you have TB you're already there.

 

 

 

 

Your auntie was in WACS.


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magilum wrote: Eloise

magilum wrote:
Eloise wrote:

Dude, how do you know you have TB if you don't go to the doctor to find out first? If you "find out" you have TB you're already there.

 

 

 

 

Your auntie was in WACS.

 

And she uses her groovy home lab to identify the culture swab as a confirmed TB bac. ?  LOL, TB wasn't the best choice, really.

But if you'd like I'll play fair. You're sick, do you go to the doctor for diagnosis and treatment or to God for miraculous healing. What about neither? you just have a rest and a long water and expect to feel better in the morning. <insert Matthew Quote>

 

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Eloise wrote: magilum

Eloise wrote:
magilum wrote:
Eloise wrote:

Dude, how do you know you have TB if you don't go to the doctor to find out first? If you "find out" you have TB you're already there.

 

 

 

 

Your auntie was in WACS.

 

And she uses her groovy home lab to identify the culture swab as a confirmed TB bac. ?  LOL, TB wasn't the best choice, really. 

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL... yeah, cos it's me who's missed the point.

Let's fucking derail it. 


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magilum wrote: Eloise

magilum wrote:
Eloise wrote:
magilum wrote:
Eloise wrote:

Dude, how do you know you have TB if you don't go to the doctor to find out first? If you "find out" you have TB you're already there.

 

Your auntie was in WACS.

 

And she uses her groovy home lab to identify the culture swab as a confirmed TB bac. ? LOL, TB wasn't the best choice, really.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL... yeah, cos it's me who's missed the point.

Mmmmmmmm sarcasm. *Homer Simpson impression*

 Actually my point's been missed, but then I haven't quite made it yet either, so no biggie.

Quote:
 

Let's fucking derail it.

Well now that's just hypocrisy. The original question is designed to undermine and derail, not that that's a bad thing,  though.

It sucks, I presume, to see the Theist=Stupid assumption fail, no?

 

So this whole question is easy to derail, it's based wholly on the premise that an individual can make a flawless clinical diagnosis without any intervention whatsoever by specialist science.  It's just not feasible. Finding out you have TB (and many other deadly but treatable diseases) requires first going beyond your God to science and that's all there is to it. There is no neutral ground at diagnosis. Neutral ground is pre-diagnosis. And in that case you can just get better but who would know you had more than a common cough-cold in that case?

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Eloise wrote: magilum

Eloise wrote:
magilum wrote:
Eloise wrote:
magilum wrote:
Eloise wrote:

Dude, how do you know you have TB if you don't go to the doctor to find out first? If you "find out" you have TB you're already there.

 

Your auntie was in WACS.

 

And she uses her groovy home lab to identify the culture swab as a confirmed TB bac. ? LOL, TB wasn't the best choice, really.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL... yeah, cos it's me who's missed the point.

Mmmmmmmm sarcasm. *Homer Simpson impression*

 Actually my point's been missed, but then I haven't quite made it yet either, so no biggie.

Quote:
 

Let's fucking derail it.

Well now that's just hypocrisy. The original question is designed to undermine and derail, not that that's a bad thing,  though.

It sucks, I presume, to see the Theist=Stupid assumption fail, no?

 

So this whole question is easy to derail, it's based wholly on the premise that an individual can make a flawless clinical diagnosis without any intervention whatsoever by specialist science.  It's just not feasible. Finding out you have TB (and many other deadly but treatable diseases) requires first going beyond your God to science and that's all there is to it. There is no neutral ground at diagnosis. Neutral ground is pre-diagnosis. And in that case you can just get better but who would know you had more than a common cough-cold in that case?

A "flawless diagnosis" isn't necessary to propose a scenario involving a grave illness. Anyone not jacking it on their own dishonest pedantry should be able to see the point of the question.


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magilum wrote: A "flawless

magilum wrote:

A "flawless diagnosis" isn't necessary to propose a scenario involving a grave illness. Anyone not jacking it on their own dishonest pedantry should be able to see the point of the question.

I'm not being dishonest nor pedantic. Such a scenario can not exist and its that simple. You can't find out you have TB without clinical confirmation end of story.

Now if you are a theist and you want it in Gods hands you won't get the diagnosis. You don't fear bacteria you're not driven to hire a specialist to take care of your fear for you.

<insert Matthew 10:28 >

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Eloise wrote: magilum

Eloise wrote:
magilum wrote:

A "flawless diagnosis" isn't necessary to propose a scenario involving a grave illness. Anyone not jacking it on their own dishonest pedantry should be able to see the point of the question.

I'm not being dishonest nor pedantic. Such a scenario can not exist and its that simple. You can't find out you have TB without clinical confirmation end of story.

Now if you are a theist and you want it in Gods hands you won't get the diagnosis. You don't fear bacteria you're not driven to hire a specialist to take care of your fear for you.

<insert Matthew 10:28 >

If a TB diagnosis is specifically the point of the question, I withdraw my statement. I don't think it was. And I don't think it's significant to the discussion.


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(Not attempting to 

(Not attempting to  purposely derail the thread) 

I may be an Atheist... but if we're talking about U.S Doctors and Hospitals... i think i'd rather pray >.>

 

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magilum wrote: Eloise

magilum wrote:
Eloise wrote:
magilum wrote:

A "flawless diagnosis" isn't necessary to propose a scenario involving a grave illness. Anyone not jacking it on their own dishonest pedantry should be able to see the point of the question.

I'm not being dishonest nor pedantic. Such a scenario can not exist and its that simple. You can't find out you have TB without clinical confirmation end of story.

Now if you are a theist and you want it in Gods hands you won't get the diagnosis. You don't fear bacteria you're not driven to hire a specialist to take care of your fear for you.

<insert Matthew 10:28 >

If a TB diagnosis is specifically the point of the question, I withdraw my statement. I don't think it was. And I don't think it's significant to the discussion.

How about instead of starting with the TB diagnosis, since, as eloise pointed out, it would require the initial doctor visit, the issue starts with coughing up blood? Then the question is: pray to get better or go see a doctor?

 -Triften


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triften wrote: magilum

triften wrote:
magilum wrote:
Eloise wrote:
magilum wrote:

A "flawless diagnosis" isn't necessary to propose a scenario involving a grave illness. Anyone not jacking it on their own dishonest pedantry should be able to see the point of the question.

I'm not being dishonest nor pedantic. Such a scenario can not exist and its that simple. You can't find out you have TB without clinical confirmation end of story.

Now if you are a theist and you want it in Gods hands you won't get the diagnosis. You don't fear bacteria you're not driven to hire a specialist to take care of your fear for you.

<insert Matthew 10:28 >

If a TB diagnosis is specifically the point of the question, I withdraw my statement. I don't think it was. And I don't think it's significant to the discussion.

How about instead of starting with the TB diagnosis, since, as eloise pointed out, it would require the initial doctor visit, the issue starts with coughing up blood? Then the question is: pray to get better or go see a doctor?

-Triften

Ok you got me Triften, well put. 

If you're coughing up blood and have TB, presumably you called on God already cause you've been in bed with a nasty fever for a while. At that stage you've proved to yourself that you're not going to miraculously heal anyway.

 But seriously, I will try to play fair on the topic. You're coughing up blood, its the first symptom, there's been nothing else, you haven't asked God for anything, already, and you haven't been to a doctor, its a perfectly neutral but potentially deadly situation (You might suppose it is serious, it is blood in the airway, high on the serious scale), but this time the dice aren't loaded in favour of one or the other, there's just a person and their blood. 

So do you go to a doc or pray?

You pray. 

When it comes down to a clean unloaded choice between God and science for an unexpected, unidentified event in your life, there's no reason not to trust prayer if you so wish.

 

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It's got squat to do with

It's got squat to do with symptoms or diagnosis. It is essential to the question as posed that the seriousness of the illness be known to, or at least believed by, the person with the dilemma. You could say it's begging the question regarding the efficacy of prayer according to believers, but you know what the point is, and that the diagnosis question is a red herring. All it's asking is: will you risk your life on the power of prayer?

It's absurd, of course, to anyone but a Christian Scientist. He'd might as well ask whether you'd book a flight or flap your arms. But it's a simple question, aside from all this fastidious wonkery. 


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magilum wrote: It's got

magilum wrote:

It's got squat to do with symptoms or diagnosis. It is essential to the question as posed that the seriousness of the illness be known to, or at least believed by, the person with the dilemma. You could say it's begging the question regarding the efficacy of prayer according to believers, but you know what the point is, and that the diagnosis question is a red herring. All it's asking is: will you risk your life on the power of prayer?

It's absurd, of course, to anyone but a Christian Scientist. He'd might as well ask whether you'd book a flight or flap your arms. But it's a simple question, aside from all this fastidious wonkery.

And it's a simple answer too.

We're all gonna die someday no matter whose hands you put it in. So what is this life that I'm supposed to be risking?

 

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The op poses a make believe

The op poses a make believe scenario with only two possible answers in a very lackluster attempt to try and get anyone with any sort of theist belief to say "ill go to the doctor of course" and because he is oh so clever, he will then, predictably so, respond by saying, "oh so you have no faith." The topic post of this thread is a thinly veiled troll. His comment at the end shows this to be true. "Perhaps you trust physical, reliable, science more than mythology" Weak man, very weak, your snottiness and that smug certainty that you have shows that you have no real interest in the views of anyone posting in this thread, hence, this is a troll post on your part. Care to defend your house of cards?


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Ignost (I) I don't really

Ignost (I) I don't really have any reason to reply I just like your name.

 So... anyhow, it's odd to see a non-theistic member responding in this forum like that to a thread like this. I don't think the op was intending to troll, though. It's just a naff question.

 

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Im calling him out on a

Im calling him out on a poorly posed question that was clearly not devised to create thought provoking discussion. I do so for all equally regardless of their beliefs. The way I see it he was trying to steer the path of discussion by anticipating and responding to predictable responses. The only thing thought provoking about this thread is the lesson in child psychology you are getting.


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Eloise wrote: magilum

Eloise wrote:
magilum wrote:

It's got squat to do with symptoms or diagnosis. It is essential to the question as posed that the seriousness of the illness be known to, or at least believed by, the person with the dilemma. You could say it's begging the question regarding the efficacy of prayer according to believers, but you know what the point is, and that the diagnosis question is a red herring. All it's asking is: will you risk your life on the power of prayer?

It's absurd, of course, to anyone but a Christian Scientist. He'd might as well ask whether you'd book a flight or flap your arms. But it's a simple question, aside from all this fastidious wonkery.

And it's a simple answer too.

We're all gonna die someday no matter whose hands you put it in. So what is this life that I'm supposed to be risking?

the life that you could be living longer in if you could stop the TB.

But I think you still missed the mark. The question was designed to find out whether or not theists truly do believe that prayer can work. It had nothing to do with the TB, the healing/treatment, or whether or not people would choose to live.


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lgnsttefrst wrote: Im

lgnsttefrst wrote:
Im calling him out on a poorly posed question that was clearly not devised to create thought provoking discussion. I do so for all equally regardless of their beliefs. The way I see it he was trying to steer the path of discussion by anticipating and responding to predictable responses. The only thing thought provoking about this thread is the lesson in child psychology you are getting.

I'm unimpressed at your attempt to see through my "thinly veiled" little scenario here; you miss the point.
I was not literally offering a 1 or 2 scenario, although it may appear that way.
There was a bigger point which you've sidestepped in an attempt at making both the argument and myself look ridiculous. You fail anyway, but that's a seperate issue.
That said, the issue at hand is whether one is willing to place themselves at the mercy of scientific study into illness or the gods' divine hands. The general consensus so far? Gods are only as good as man-made medicine. 
Again, I'm unimpressed at your little attempt to derail the topic and strawman me in an effort to make the argument look less efficient in exemplifying the point.


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Personally, as an atheist, I

Personally, as an atheist, I was expecting a theist to pull the "but it's because of God's wonderful creation that man was able to develop medicine" argument.


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Oh, so you didn't say or

Oh, so you didn't say or mean that you can only choose one of the two answers. What else did you not mean to say? Perhaps you should have just posed the op as you just stated your thesis. Your thesis could be divined from your op, but it was done so in a sloppy manner that was an attempt to railroad the discussion in a manner you felt to be advantageous to you. So much for that free thinking persona that you love to identify with.

 fake edit: yes, the poor phrasing of the op did make your argument less efficient. It made it look like a troll.


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lgnsttefrst wrote: Oh, so

lgnsttefrst wrote:
Oh, so you didn't say or mean that you can only choose one of the two answers.
He did say and mean that. The point just wasn't based around the two answers, but rather, what they implied.

 

Quote:
Your thesis could be divined from your op, but it was done so in a sloppy manner that was an attempt to railroad the discussion in a manner you felt to be advantageous to you.
No, all he did was ask a question, and then explain the point behind it. Now, you're dodging it.

Quote:
So much for that free thinking persona that you love to identify with.
so, asking a quesion, which has an implied point, somehow detracts from free thinking?

Quote:
fake edit: yes, the poor phrasing of the op did make your argument less efficient. It made it look like a troll.
It isn't the phrasing that's wrong. It's the fact that people are trying to siedsytep the actual point. Like you're doing now.


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Apokalipse wrote: But I

Apokalipse wrote:

But I think you still missed the mark. The question was designed to find out whether or not theists truly do believe that prayer can work.

Hi Apokalipse, I like your avvie.

So if that's the point of the question, very well, but AAviB provided an specific context in which he is going to frame my answer, if it's alright for him to do that, then the same applies for me. Just because I identify as theist, does not mean that my belief system is built upon a complete absence of reason. To answer the question which is not loaded with a priori action that has already undermined my belief structure, Yes, I believe "prayer" can work. 

 

Quote:

It had nothing to do with the TB, the healing/treatment, or whether or not people would choose to live.

In the naturalistic world life is a bundle of energy borrowed from the universe, held together by interference from unknown universes. We live courtesy of a constant and renewing influx of free and bound energy which consciousness rides (like a surfer), it does not have it, ever, it is a shared quantity.

 Science is a noble pursuit, it is creative, imaginative, valuable and fulfilling, but it is not the source nor the sustainer of this life, but what we make of it. There are a lot of implicit assumptions in the op, and I think my speaking to those is relevant, it is not my belief to pit science against the naturalistic frce that sustains it, as was implied in the original question. And if I am to answer the question sufficiently from my beliefs we should meet whereever we agree that science and life in any form (bacterial included) are not in conflict.   

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Eloise wrote:

Eloise wrote:
Apokalipse wrote:

But I think you still missed the mark. The question was designed to find out whether or not theists truly do believe that prayer can work.

Hi Apokalipse, I like your avvie.

thanks Smiling

Quote:
So if that's the point of the question, very well, but AAviB provided an specific context in which he is going to frame my answer, if it's alright for him to do that, then the same applies for me.
The question was not based around the frame of context he used. The context of the question was only necessary in order to match the arbitrary scenario to the implied point.

Quote:
Just because I identify as theist, does not mean that my belief system is built upon a complete absence of reason.
Or what one might see as reason.

Quote:
To answer the question which is not loaded with a priori action that has already undermined my belief structure, Yes, I believe "prayer" can work.
But would you depend on it?

 

Studies have been made, which show that the effectiveness of prayer is statistically the same as not praying.

The only way I can see prayer working maybe, is through a placebo effect.

Quote:
it is not my belief to pit science against the naturalistic frce that sustains it
so you equate prayer to naturalistic force?


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here ya go

shelleymtjoy wrote:
Personally, as an atheist, I was expecting a theist to pull the "but it's because of God's wonderful creation that man was able to develop medicine" argument.

As to not disappoint, I will state the argument you mentioned. Smiling

If God created all things, then by default, He created our minds and the ability to study and learn cause and effect. Therefore, man was given not only freewill but intelligence to discover his environment. Science is that by product and whether the men that discover such treatments do not believe in God, He can very well direct advancment through those men.

And so I will answer that original question as:

Yes, I believe in prayer as a source of healing, both physically and mentally from personal experience. However, I am not adverse to using modern medical treatment as a source for health.

You say there is no option for both to be the answer, but not having that option limits honesty and practicality in modern society.

Why does 80% of the US say they are Christian but so few look like Jesus?


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Apokalipse wrote: To

Apokalipse wrote:

To answer the question which is not loaded with a priori action that has already undermined my belief structure, Yes, I believe "prayer" can work.

But would you depend on it?

The most appropriate question is Do I depend on it, the condition I have posted these many times to establish clearly is that asking 'would I' in just about any case voids the question entirely. The original question is a false dilemma sidestepping the antecedent of it's own premise. IF I have found out that I have tuberculosis, I have already affirmed my dependence on science.  If I, then, return to a spiritual source for healing, do I believe it's going to work, probably not, maybe so. Either way the antecedent, proves unequivocally I already didn't depend on prayer and I have already made BOTH choices, the question is invalid.

 Now Triften rephrased the question eliminating the false dilemma by proposing that a person suddenly coughs up blood; to that question my honest answer is given already. It's just 'a theist and their blood', they can, in this case, choose one of the two options and it would be at that moment one choice made.

 So to recap, The context of the original question arises after one of the choices is already made.  Void question.

Do I depend on "prayer"? Yes.  

 

Quote:

Studies have been made, which show that the effectiveness of prayer is statistically the same as not praying.

The only way I can see prayer working maybe, is through a placebo effect.

The placebo effect is real enough. 

 

Quote:
Quote:
it is not my belief to pit science against the naturalistic frce that sustains it
so you equate prayer to naturalistic force?

Nick pick-up Apokalipse, that's not what I was implying, but.. indeed I do. 

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Eloise wrote:

Eloise wrote:
Apokalipse wrote:
Eloise wrote:

To answer the question which is not loaded with a priori action that has already undermined my belief structure, Yes, I believe "prayer" can work.

But would you depend on it?

The most appropriate question is Do I depend on it, the condition I have posted these many times to establish clearly is that asking 'would I' in just about any case voids the question entirely. The original question is a false dilemma sidestepping the antecedent of it's own premise. IF I have found out that I have tuberculosis, I have already affirmed my dependence on science. If I, then, return to a spiritual source for healing, do I believe it's going to work, probably not, maybe so. Either way the antecedent, proves unequivocally I already didn't depend on prayer and I have already made BOTH choices, the question is invalid.

which is why the question was rephrased.

The only reason the question includes TB, is because he wanted to try and give a real-world scenario. But in this thread, he's not interested in TB, or how people found out about the TB. He's only interested in what people would choose, out of prayer or science, to resolve a problem. Even if that problem can definitely be solved with science.

My guess is he suspects that many theists do not believe that prayer will work.

 

Quote:
Now Triften rephrased the question eliminating the false dilemma by proposing that a person suddenly coughs up blood; to that question my honest answer is given already. It's just 'a theist and their blood', they can, in this case, choose one of the two options and it would be at that moment one choice made.

So to recap, The context of the original question arises after one of the choices is already made. Void question.

see above.

Quote:
Do I depend on "prayer"? Yes.
what do you depend on prayer for?

The reason I asked "would you" instead of "do you" is because "do you" implies that you already are in situations that one might depend on prayer for. whereas "would you" is open to a lot of possible situations in the future, but doesn't necessarily mean anything specifically is happening now that one might depend on prayer for.

Quote:
Quote:
Studies have been made, which show that the effectiveness of prayer is statistically the same as not praying.

The only way I can see prayer working maybe, is through a placebo effect.

The placebo effect is real enough.

but not a result of a god.

 

Eloise wrote:
Apokalipse wrote:
Eloise wrote:
it is not my belief to pit science against the naturalistic frce that sustains it
so you equate prayer to naturalistic force?

Nick pick-up Apokalipse, that's not what I was implying, but.. indeed I do.

So do you believe that, if one prays, that there is a god who decides whether or not to perform whatever request they're praying about?

If so, does that mean you equate the existence of a god to anything naturalistic?


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lgnsttefrst wrote: Oh, so

lgnsttefrst wrote:

Oh, so you didn't say or mean that you can only choose one of the two answers. What else did you not mean to say? Perhaps you should have just posed the op as you just stated your thesis. Your thesis could be divined from your op, but it was done so in a sloppy manner that was an attempt to railroad the discussion in a manner you felt to be advantageous to you. So much for that free thinking persona that you love to identify with.

 fake edit: yes, the poor phrasing of the op did make your argument less efficient. It made it look like a troll.


Again, the question was not to be taken literally.... It was to emphasize a greater point: Theists are more likely to utilize medicine solely instead of prayer then to utilize prayer solely over medicine.


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Again, you must have ignored

Again, you must have ignored my post where I explained why a theist, a Christian in particular, wouldn't solely use prayer to attempt to heal an illness. i'll just copy and paste the last sentence of my first post in this thread. "The answer any Christian with half a brain and google will give you: see Matthew 4:5-7." Perhaps you would have taken the time to read it if you hadn't spent the whole thread back pedaling.


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lgnsttefrst wrote: Again,

lgnsttefrst wrote:
Again, you must have ignored my post where I explained why a theist, a Christian in particular, wouldn't solely use prayer to attempt to heal an illness. i'll just copy and paste the last sentence of my first post in this thread. "The answer any Christian with half a brain and google will give you: see Matthew 4:5-7." Perhaps you would have taken the time to read it if you hadn't spent the whole thread back pedaling.

I looked it up, but I don't see the relevance. Can you explain it for whoever here does want to take the time?

5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

 


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shelleymtjoy

shelleymtjoy wrote:

lgnsttefrst wrote:
Again, you must have ignored my post where I explained why a theist, a Christian in particular, wouldn't solely use prayer to attempt to heal an illness. i'll just copy and paste the last sentence of my first post in this thread. "The answer any Christian with half a brain and google will give you: see Matthew 4:5-7." Perhaps you would have taken the time to read it if you hadn't spent the whole thread back pedaling.

I looked it up, but I don't see the relevance. Can you explain it for whoever here does want to take the time?

5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I think in this context it means "don't count on miracles" or "don't try to force god to do something".

I find it hard to square this with:

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

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hmmm, even if i believed

hmmm, even if i believed the bible was the word of god (which i don't) i would still think Matthew 4:5-7 is quite a strech as far as applying to this topic goes.  thanks for the interpretation though, shikko, and i agree with you on the 7:7-11 thing.  just another contradiction among many.


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Ill try to explain quick

Ill try to explain quick before I go off to work. I had it explained to me once as the following, you can't badger or tempt God, this includes prayers, requests etc. I was watching the world series of poker the other day and there were people hooting and hollering for God to bring them big winnings; from what I can see, the Bible says that prayers are answered on a more spiritual basis. Ephesians 6:10-20 seems to suggest that prayer is to be used as spiritual protection and defense against afflictions of the faith.

One site I came across states that you need to pray through the Holy Spirit to get what you need from God, as in tounges, another says that you need to have your heart pure enough, another that its because you don't have enough faith, and yet another because you hold desire for personal gain.

I guess all Christians aren't quite on the same page when it comes to prayer requests. One of the most enlightening passages I found pertains to Islam.

 

Man has been asked repeatedly to ask Allah(swt) for that which he desires. To end suffering, pain or to acquire that which we desire the most, dua is made unto Allah(swt). In Surah Ghafir, Allah(swt) says: 

"And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer)" – [Quran 40:60] 

Yet many of our prayers go unanswered and people often wonder why their prayers were not heard. All prayers made to Allah(swt) are heard by Him: 

"When my servants ask you concerning me, (tell them) I am indeed close (to them). I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calls on me." – [Quran 2:186] 



Primarily, certain conditions apply to duas before they can be answered: 

1. A dua for something that is haram cannot be made and will not be fulfilled. We cannot ask for that which is forbidden in Islam. Such duas would definitely not be answered. Hence for starters we should know that what we are asking for should be halal according to the Islamic Shariah. 
 

2. Our duas should be for our betterment. If Allah(swt) feels that what we ask for will harm us then He will not grant us our wish. A child who has no sense of what is harmful often cries and weeps asking him mother to let him play with a knife. The mother knows that he can cut himself and thus expose himself to pain if he is given the knife and hence does not fulfill his request. Similarly we often ask for things that are actually indeed harmful to us. Due to our limited wisdom we cannot assess the harmful effects of it but Allah(swt) in His Divine Wisdom knows of it and thus in order to protect us, He does not fulfill our request. 

I have often come across the younger generation who wish for a certain person of the opposite sex to fall in love with them. When these duas are not answered they get depressed and disheartened. Some actually wish that they would have a love affair with that certain person, not realizing that this dua falls under the category of a forbidden act. Then there are others who wish for marriage which is permissible in Islam but a dua fulfilling the first criteria does not mean that it also fulfills the second criteria as mentioned above. 

A person wishes for wealth but does not get it. Why? Allah(swt) in His Divine Wisdom knows how we will spend that wealth. A person can think "but I would spend it in the cause of Allah(swt)" however they fail to realize that we dont know a fraction of what we are. Only The Creator does. He knows that we might do all the wrong things. These wrong things can lead us right to the footsteps of Hell. Hence Allah(swt) in His Divine Wisdom is protecting us but we in our non-existant wisdom fail to understand. 
 

3. We should pray to Allah(swt) while having faith in Him and with humility. We should express our need for Him. 

Call on your Lord with humility and in private: for Allah loveth not those who trespass beyondbounds.
Do no mischief on the earth, after it hath been set in order, but call on Him with fear and longing (in your hearts): for the Mercy of Allah is (always) near to those who do good.
– [Quran 7:55-56] 

Many a times we quickly say our Salah and hurriedly go through the duas taking it for granted that because we have offered the Salah, our prayers will be answered. This is not the way to make dua. We must be sincere to Allah(swt) 
 

4. This is one of the most important factors which we have to keep in mind. Though we spend time weeping for what we desire, as soon as we leave the masjid or our praying mats we continue with that which is haram. We will indulge in all kinds of things that are forbidden by Allah(swt) yet we expect Him to do as we have desired. Why is it that while we refuse to follow and obey the commandments of Allah(swt), we expect Him to do everything for us? We should always try to prove our worth. Ask yourself why Allah should help you? Have your proven your worth to Him? 

Suffiyan At-Thawri answered the question "why does Allah(swt) not answer my prayer?" very appropriately. He listed 10 points which I will list below:  
 
1- You know Allah(swt) YET you disobey Him. 
2- You recite the Quran YET you dont act according to it. 
3- You know shaitan YET you have agreed with him. 
4- You proclaim your love of the messenger(saw) of Allah(swt) YET you abandon his Sunnah. 
5- You proclain your love for Paradise YET you do not act to gain it. 
6- You proclaim your fear of the Fire YET you do not prevent yourselves from sins. 
7- You say indeed death is true YET you have not done anything to prepare for it. 
8- You point out the faults of others YET you do not look at your own faults.  
9- You eat of that which Allah(swt) has provided for you YET you do not thank Him(swt). 
10- You bury your dead YET you do not take a lesson from it.
 

How many of these 10 points hold to be true with us? If one would assess themselves honestly, the results will be surprising. 
 

5. Allah(swt) tests His creation in many ways. Many a times our prayers are not answered as swiftly as we desire because Allah(swt) wants to test our patience. Truly the following verses in the Quran correctly describe the nature of man: 

Now, as for man, when his Lord trieth him, giving him honour and gifts, then saith he, (puffed up), "My Lord hath honoured me."
But when He trieth him, restricting his subsistence for him, then saith he (in despair), "My Lord hath humiliated me!"
– [Quran 89:15-16] 

And again it is said: 

There are among men some who serve Allah, as it were, on the verge: if good befalls them, they are, therewith, well content; but if a trial comes to them, they turn on their faces: they lose both this world and the Hereafter: that is loss for all to see! – [Quran 22:11] 
 

To conclude, we must be sure that what we wish for is halal and not haram. We must have faith in Allah(swt) and know that He will fulfill that which is good for us. Our intentions should be pure and the dua should be made with humility. It is important for us to refrain from that which is haram and follow the commands of Allah(swt) as strictly as we can. Losing faith in Allah(swt) is harmful only for us for He needs not that we have faith in Him. Prayers that are unanswered in this world are deferred to be rewarded for in the Hereafter. Most importantly, we must recognize that Allah(swt) tests us and thus should practice patience during such times. 

-Ebrahim Saifuddin


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Yes, but many people do

Yes, but many people do exactly that - rely solely on prayer.

 Is it expressly haram (prohibited) to rely on God to heal an illness?  (Let's say there was no medically known cure for TB, for example.)  I don't think it is and while I agree that the OP could have been worded better find scripture that says God doesn't want you to rely solely on prayer

1. is contradicted  - shikko points out one example

2. is common practice - examples: when their is no cure and say, in christian science 

3. assumes that asking something is bagering.

I really think the OP was trying to point out the flaws in relying on prayer.  In fact, even theists know God probably won't get rid of their TB and that's why they show up at the hospital!  But of course, 'God' gave these people the TB in the first place so maybe it's all part of his plan and we shouldn't mess with this plan by swallowing antibiotics. Eye-wink 


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Apokalipse wrote:

Apokalipse wrote:

which is why the question was rephrased.

The only reason the question includes TB, is because he wanted to try and give a real-world scenario. But in this thread, he's not interested in TB, or how people found out about the TB.

It's fine with me, give the OP the benefit of the doubt and just be done with it now, Truce?

Quote:

He's only interested in what people would choose, out of prayer or science, to resolve a problem. Even if that problem can definitely be solved with science.

Well, in this case it is as I said. Take one generic perception of a problem, add no science, shake well and my answer is 'prayer will do'.

Quote:

My guess is he suspects that many theists do not believe that prayer will work.

I think the question in itself makes that obvious.

 

Quote:
Quote:
Do I depend on "prayer"? Yes.
what do you depend on prayer for?

anything and everything. upthread a bit there is a discussion about the meaning of the Matthew gospel 'don't tempt your God' vs the meaning of 'how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?' and do they contradict? Someone from that discussion also noted that a theist in this thread might argue that God is behind science.

Now just put those arguments together and what do you get. A man goes to a doctor to ASK for diagnosis. God is behind science, diagnosis comes from God. Diagnosis = problem.

The man went to God and asked for a problem.

"if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?"

Don't tempt your God story doesn't conflict with this, its the same principle, Jesus is refusing to invoke a problem, the other being is goading Jesus to ask a god, that gives everything you ask for, for trouble. It's not hard to see what he means by saying no.

 

 

Quote:

The reason I asked "would you" instead of "do you" is because "do you" implies that you already are in situations that one might depend on prayer for. whereas "would you" is open to a lot of possible situations in the future, but doesn't necessarily mean anything specifically is happening now that one might depend on prayer for.

And this is why the generic percieved problem is so important to have as the premise of the question. A possible situation, that does not involve seeking a problem and then backpedalling and seeking God to solve it, will not involve a doctors diagnosis. It will not involve running in front of a bus and then asking for it to miraculously break down. Sure you can try these things, but by doing so you've missed the point of 'ask and it shall be given'. Ask for trouble then a miracle then, all things being equal, you'll get them both in that order.

 

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Studies have been made, which show that the effectiveness of prayer is statistically the same as not praying.

The only way I can see prayer working maybe, is through a placebo effect.

The placebo effect is real enough.

but not a result of a god.

Says who? The word 'soul' comes from the greek translation and it is synonymous with psyche.

 

Apokalipse wrote:

If so, does that mean you equate the existence of a god to anything naturalistic?

I do, I've discussed those beliefs variously around these forums, it's probably too long a discussion to have here and now, suffice it to say that I list pantheism as one of the labels within a few small degrees of describing my theism.

 

 

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I would honestly say that I

I would honestly say that I choose number one. I don’t look at the universe, from what all I have studied, from science to theology, as if I am the center of the world. I look to God. What am I to say that I shall live another day or die another day? I have lived a life. I have seen pain and I have seen revelation. If I am to die, then I will die, I don’t believe that I will end, instead, I believe I will be with my God. Of course I have also seen the power of prayer, and through seeing the power of prayer, I have gained a greater conviction in trusting the power of prayer. I have seen prayer work at the seminary I go to and I have seen prayer work at where I go to church and I have seen prayer work especially in my own life (prayers for me by friends and family and prayers to God for myself). And yes I have faced severe illness in my life. For several months in my life I was completely bed ridden. I could only go out to one doctor after the next. My family prayed for me, I prayed for me, friends prayed for me. And I got better. Doesn’t mean that I WILL get better (and I stress the "will" because it isn’t up to me, eternally speaking, as to what happens to me tomorrow, I’m neither omnipotent or omnipresent), but it does mean that I am in the care of God my God and Savior. Life is life. Eternity is eternity. I am at peace where I am here and now, and I trust that God will lead me ever on down the path.  I will hold onto my convictions, I will hold onto my faith, and I will hold onto the treasures that have been given to me already by God, through family and through friends.  The hope and the endurance and the courage that God has given to me already is a blessing, and I trust that blessings will continue here in this life or in the next.


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AtheistAviB wrote: B) You

AtheistAviB wrote:
B) You head over to the nearest facility that specializes in TB treatment in order to be cured.
Hmmm... Which do you believe will work?...
If B: Perhaps you trust physical, reliable, science more than mythology....
You can only choose ONE.


If you pray but, don't do your part, God won't help you.  As a wise man once said..."God helps they who help themselves." 


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I think Job had the right

I think Job had the right idea, considering this situation, when he said the following from Chapter 1 and 2:  "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return there.  The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord...Shall we indeed accept the good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?"  I do not wish to make it sound like I am some holy man on the hill.  I am an average chap, I eat, sleep, go to work, go to school.  I write, I study, I have good days, I have bad days.  I struggle, and I have hope.  Most of all, this hope, found in the foundation of God through Christ, through viewing how God has revealed Himself in all the ways He has revealed Himself, produces peace even when I am scorned.  If I had to choose one or the other, I would choose one.  God's will is God's will, I do not always know why things happen, I do not always know the meaning of why things happen.  But I trust in the overall aim of reality, that aim toward the beauty and the strength and the endurance and the everlasting power that is the totality of God's Kingdom.  As Joseph points out at the end of Genesis, "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good..."  If I had TB and was told I had to follow one specific path, then I would trust in God, even to the valley of shadows because I believe that good can come out of even the worst situation, because hope is eternal, and the foundation of hope is God Almighty.