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Old testament
Posted on: July 23, 2007 - 12:10am
 Offline
Old testament
Hi, whenever I talk to Christians and try to prove that according to Jesus in Matthew 5 verse 17-19 the Old Testament Old Testament laws are still valid. They always tell me that Jesus was talking about the Ten Commandments. I was just wondering if he was talking about the Ten Commandments or about Leviticus law.
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In this verse (and the subsequent verses) he is speaking about all of the old laws. This is easily apparent as after he says this, he goes on to expand on the laws (Matthew 5:21-48), and while it includes things from the ten commandments (murder, adultery, etc), he also refers to laws outside of the ten commandments like divorce (Matt. 5:31 refers to Deut. 24:1), eye for an eye (Matt. 5:28 refers to Exodus 21:24 and Lev. 24:20), etc.
http://flyingbagpiper.blogspot.com
I've been engaged in conversation with a group of theists who assert that the laws of the ot are just and right, but man just isn't capable of living up to such a high standard. "When the time was right" (exact words used) Jesus was sent to pay the price for man's failings to follow the laws. They passionately claim that this is not a get out of jail free card. They assert that man is supposed to acknowledge those laws as right and be truly repentant for failing to follow them. I think this somehow both gives them the excuse to act on things like homosexuals while getting a pass for not stoning their children PLUS it reconciles the comments claimed to be Jesus' in Mark and elsewhere that he didn't come to erase the old laws.
Here, give them this...
Dear Pat Robertson,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can.
When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who
sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
I'm always pissed at my dad about this. He's of the opinion that the old testament law was put in place simply to show us that we needed a savior.
Did the new covenant come or not?
Both 'by faith' and 'through faith' are used for Gentiles and Jews not to mention OT saints. The circumcision of the heart, circumcision of Christ and operation of God, goes back to Abraham's circumcision of faith as an outward sign, and was spoken through Moses (also written down in the law to do) and through the prophets by which Promise of the Spirit the Gentiles certainly are partakers.
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Today, Messianic Jews still preach Gentiles should follow the written law and ordinances because they fail to see the law is now written in their hearts and they have the Spirit. Gentiles use their liberty in Christ as an occasion of sin and not keeping the commandments which even the NT says a true believer does. Not to earn salvation of course, but because they are born (again) of God, and servants of righteousness, not servants of sin. Yet, most believers consider themselves sinners instead of sinners saved by grace and behold now sons of God.
Can a Gentile have the law in their heart? Well, is this a believing or non nelieving Gentile?
If anything is revealed in Acts, Galatians, and Romans it is that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Failure to see this causes an anti-law mentality in Gentiles and a pro-law mentality in Jewish believers. Both are wrong according to scripture. Do I really need to post scripture that speaks of the beauty of the law? It came from God before it was put to ink. The law is spiritual, and something believers hold up (establish) by fulfilling (Ro 3, 4), not cast down as something not for us as a curse. The curse was death, which Jesus answered.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Live peaceably with all men, love God and you neighbor and even more as Jesus loved you from which all the law hinges, and you will hold up the law by walking in the Spirit (Romans 3) because the law through the flesh can not bring forth righteousness but the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4). All those OT prophecies about the law being put in our heart says we will do the law. Not that we remember 600 written laws and focus on them and our lives and be careful not to break them (as the OT law of Moses -letter of the law), but that we love and serve God in the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh and do His will not our own (as the NT perfect law of liberty in the Spirit).
So that's why I started out asking, did it come, is it the NT, and if so does it include the Gentiles? So if there are differences in the Jews and the Gentiles salvation, what are they and what are the scriptures, because Acts, Galatians, and Romans, (and others) clearly shows otherwise.
So what is it about a Gentiles nature that they can do God's law, without having the written law? Here's the sinful nature problem again, in that we are not born with one. Romans 1-3 is all ONE context. So what do we find?
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
We see that we are born with truth and hold it but are unrighteous and our foolish hearts are then darkened, indicating it didn't start out that way. This is why every human can justly be judged according to their deeds regardless of religion and all are without excuse (Romans 1,2). Romans 1-3 is bouncing back and forth between the natural law and written law and all will be judged by that one, same, law.
How does the Gentile toddler, child, teenager, adult, know they have sinned? They have violated their conscience given to them as 'man' made in the image of God, having spirit. This is not the letter of the law here. The law is God's law, not Moses'. Jesus said if the Jews were of Moses and Abraham they would believe believe Him. All the world is not judged and found guilty before God because Israel couldn't keep the written law. The context is still the same as chapter one. All hold the truth and have known God. All are judged according to that knowledge, all are w/o excuse, all have the law, not all had the written law. Remember, the written law was added because of transgression. Our foolish hearts holding the truth become darkened. We need a renewing of the mind and cleansing of the spirit. This happens when we are born again and the Spirit comes in and again, with His presence, writes the law in our mind and inward parts that we follow the inward man, not the flesh.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator...........
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another;
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end; While it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
The old doesn't contradict the new, it's just the better way that accomplishes what the old could not. The flesh has been circumcised at the cross of Christ, cut away and discarded, and the Spirit given. The operation of God.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
the entire law follows the two/three
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
oh
Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Bravo. Bravo.
You have successfully re-written the bible to fit your ideas, malachi.
I wonder why you skipped over so many wonderful little gems though.
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Romans 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
That doesn't sound like 'love everybody' to me.
I say, "Sticks and stones. Rubbber and glue."
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
Bravo. Bravo.
You have successfully said nothing....pertaining to the thread, anyway.....and you're a mod? pfft
Malachi,
Hi,
You gave a lot of stuff about the "new covenant".
If Jesus embodied the new covenant, why did he insist that the old covenant was still in force?
Nice use of Paul also - it's good to see Christians cite the creator of their religion.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
jcgadfly, when Jesus spoke of the old, the new had not come. However, while the old was still in effect, he did preach the new, which was not new at all and went back to Abraham before the law was added because of transgression. If you really want to get specific, the law of faith has always been in effect, going back to Adam, and before that the angels. Faith is not just belief in nothing. It is 'persuasion, credence, moral conviction, and moral fidelity' based on a 'connection to a source other than ones self'.
There's some Jesus, John, and James in there as well, why not comment on them? I could have included Peter and much more Jesus, but as you can see I have already been accused of using too much scripture.
Scripture must be understood in context, history, and language. It's easy to see the disciples didn't get everything Jesus told them, much like the so called church today. In fact before he went away he told the disciples he had much more to tell them but they were not able to understand it at that time. Paul, a student of the law, received his revelation, not from man, but from Jesus himself just as the disciples did. As a student of the law he was used to reveal what was left unsaid (mysteries). He never contradicts Jesus. I'd give scripture but I'm out of time for now. You don't want to see it anyway.
Thanks for your answer.
I'll take your points in reverse.
1. Thanks for assuming that you know what I think and what I want to see. I wouldn't mind it so much if you didn't come off like I've never read the Bible.
2. Paul had nothing revealed to him by Jesus. He created his Christ out of a combination of Gnostic teachings and other myths. The Gospel writers were left to create a believable backstory. Paul didn't contradict the Jesus of the Gospels because his work came first and the gospel writers were compelled to make the stories agree.
3. I didn't mention John or James because the works are dated too late to be of concern to the discussion.
Do you, by any chance believe that the canon was composed in chronological order?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
1. I didn't assume. You didn't like that I made sense with scripture, what over 99% of the professed church doesn't understand. They've read the bible too, but you can see how messed up the professed church has always been. So why would I care if you've read the bible? Did you know Jesus said the Church would be full of devils and corruption?
2. That is just your excuse to dismiss the complete revelation of Christ. You have no proof for any of it.
3. no proof of that either, and is based on your opinion anyway
I believe what we have today in the kjb is exactly what God wanted. Mathew by far is the most Jewish book containing OT prophecy and interaction with pharisees. The last book of the OT, Malachi, speaks of John the baptist, and Mathew shows us the most about him, as well. It is the only book that says 'kingdom of heaven' which is the physical institution of the earthly kingdom, and not to be confused with the kingdom of God. In fulfilling that prophecy John says the kingdom of heaven is at hand, just as Jesus.
So it makes perfect sense that Matthew is the first book of the NT. It's sad we have so many synoptic gospel harmony books trying to make the two kingdoms the same because they obviously have attributes that contradict each other.
Not that you have assumed this, but just so you know, my beliefs which are based on scripture are completely different than 98%+ the rest of the professed church and I'm not saying I am saved and all of them aren't. Their denominations and doctrines are filled with devils (fowls of the air) and corruption (leaven) of the pharisees. Just as Jesus said they'd be.
Nice.
You've dismissed any amount of history I can bring up that Paul's works were first and the gospels came a decade or so later as "opinion" (no matter what proof I can bring up), why should I bother with you further?
Especially when you throw in the "Every church is wrong but me and mine! I have the sole truthful interpretation of Scripture."
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
So yes, I have dismissed any amount of history (the Q) you can bring up that Paul's works were first and the gospels came a decade or so later, howefver you are correct that it makes no difference. You knew that when I said 'kjb' and realized you shouldn't bother with me further.
I belong to the Laodicea church era, and no other. I do not 'go to church' nor am I affiliated with any denomination. I preach the whole gospel, Christ crucified, buried, and raised and that those that belive on him are crucified, buried and raised to newness of life and free from sin. Foolishness to the world but power to those that are saved. Many have this truth, but it is not popular. You've only been in contact with many popular gospel christians which only preach half the gospel (jesus died for you) live how you were before Jesus. They believe in a 'sin nature', a 'young earth', kingdom of God and heaven are the same, Calvinism and Reformed theology, daily confession and dying to self. None of which is found anywhere in scripture. They can not read, and are mostly clueless to what scripture teaches holistically in context, history, and language. Telling people they are dead and free from sin, go and sin no more, establish (hold up) the law, fulfill the righteousness in the law, is not popular.
So yes, I disagree as much with professed christians as I do atheist. I'm not your average joe you can throw these lame unfounded statements at.
Good day!
Why would I have to prove Q to show that Paul stopped writing (at the lates) in 64 AD(CE for the realists)? Q and Paul don't connect as far as I know.
Telling people that they are free from sin and to go and sin no more is oxymoronic. If you're free from sin you can't sin anymore.
Which law are you holding up? The entire law of the Old Testament, the Ten Commandments or that law that Paul said didn't apply to you anymore because you're "under grace"?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Because your assumption that all others were written after Paul
is based on the two-source hypothesis (Q). Conservative dating of most of the other NT books put them before of at the time of Pauls writings. True, a few after after but just a few. This has been debated, and no one knows for sure. That is my point, can you refute what no one else has been able to? No, you can not.
Yes, most professed christiansalso think it is oxymoronic that we are free from sin. They are after all only professed christians. Free from sin doesn't mean you can't, it means you don't have to.
The law I hold up is the law that existed in the mind of God before the written law was added because of the trangression of men, that missed the faith of Abraham. It is the law all men have so that they have no excuse before God (Romans 1,2), which is why atheist are moral....all are born moral. Our foolish hearts are darked after birth (Romans 1 -no sin nature -light to dark). This is the result of Adam's sin. Physical death (not spiritual -spirit can not die) and separation from God. This law is the same law that is written on our hearts in the new covenant. The Ten Commandments are 'love God, love your neighbor'. The entire law hinges on these two. These two are given to christians on top of a third new commandment to love as Jesus loved us.
Paul said 'under grace', because grace is the toolkit for faith. It is what provides us away to do the two great commandments which Paul clearly said we are to do and fulfill the law with. This could not consistenly be done without the grace, which is the gift, which is us being put in Christ, crucified, buried, and raised to newness of life. So the written law is to be cast out for a law written on our hearts. We follow Christ the lawgiver, not Moses the law receiver.
Scripture never says the law died. No where! That's more false christian teaching. It is the old man that died in Romans 7, and that old man is our flesh where sin dwells. It died in Christ on the cross. A dead man can not sin. But I am here. So when temptation comes I say 'I am crucified with Christ and live unto God, I will not, and do not have to sin'. That is believing what God said that is different than what I know. Just as Abraham believed his dead body would have a child, I believe my living body is dead to sin to be a servant of righteousness. When I do this I overcome the sin and the Spirit overflows me and I know I am a son of God. It becomes a continual walking in the Spirit and in this state, I do not do what I used to do, and I do not do what my flesh wants. It is Romans 6 and 8 putting down the Romans 7 carnal man, and victory over the world the flesh and the devil.
You can mock all you want. As it is written, 'the cross is foolishness to the world, but to those that are saved it is the power of God'. It is the only way to be free from sin. By faith, for the just shall live by faith. No amount of praying , confessing, and going to church....that's just religion, if that's all you have.
You're a Paulist. Now it is clear.
The Old Testament and the Gospels don't matter to you. The only important parts are the parts you believe Paul wrote.
That is the easier Christianity. You don't actually have to live according to any law (man's or God's) because Paul says it doesn't apply because of the grace of Christ. All you have to do is believe. Paul says "where there is no law, there is no sin". Since Paul places the believere under grace and not under law, sin no longer applies. It's not just that you don't want to. It's simply a question of being unable to break the rules where there are none.
You don't have to do anything to be useful to your felow man either. Just walk in the spirit and keep believing. The "I got mine, everyone else can get screwed" religion.
No wonder you look down on atheists. We have to live by the rules of society and worry about things like "How will the things I do affect those around me?" It must be nice for you to never have to worry about those things.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
you just said the opposite of what I did. I thought you said you read the bible (implying you understood it)? Jesus said to believe as well. Paul also said the law didn't die, is spiritual, good, holy, and we hold up the law and do the righteousness in the law (not imputed righteousness). You are quick to dismiss this, just as christians are.
That's ok, I'll let you bail now, because it's anything but a graceful exit.
btw; you think I look down on people because you think it politically incorrect, to be bold and make a stand on 'beliefs', but it's ok for atheist, right?
And you keep strawmanning me. I never claimed Paul said the law was dead - simply that it no longer applied to those who believed in Jesus. Stop putting words in my mouth and come up with your own.
Are you sure you've read the Bible? Paul said in 1 Cor 15:56-57
"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Doesn't seem like the words of a man who believed the law is good and holy and should be upheld to me? Is Paul contradicting himself here?
Or are you still talking about the nonexistant law that your invisible friend writes on your heart?
Why should I bail? I rather enjoy seeing you make an ass of yourself.
NB - I'm going on a computer free vacation tomorrow morning (out 10 days) so I won't be able to respond quickly.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
The quick and easy answer is that Jesus did not contradict any of the Old Testament laws. However, he fulfilled all the cultic and purity laws in himself. Therefore, faith in Him nullifies the necessity to fulfill the various cultic/purity laws of the OT whereas the ethical laws still apply to us today. Jesus is the final atoning sacrifice for our sins and obedience is now focused inwardly on the heart and motivations as opposed to external regulations of a covenant nation.
Spumoni