Not Fundamentalists?
Offline You all claim not to be atheist fundamentalists, but then refuse to see the validity of the bible as anything but black and white. Because it contradicts itself it must be 100% crap? Why can't it be a series of accounts of real life events with mistakes in it, and sometimes even things that are made up?
The bible gives several accounts of the life of Jesus. Just because all the events and facts don't match doesn't mean everything is wrong. Their are plenty of other histories of people that contradict one another, but the rational thing to do is to try and sort out fact from fiction, not simply call it a house of cards and throw out all the facts.
You say that you are for inquiry and critical thinking, but when liberal Christians try to do that you judge them based on the same kind of fundamentalism that the right-wing Christians take to heart.
Fundamentalism is a bad thing, whether you are atheist, Christian, Muslim, or Pastafarian.
-Shawn
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You must know enough history to know it did not say that. Kingdoms don't evolve either. Babylon was suceeded by Medo-Persia (or Persia) which was suceeded by Alexanders empire which was suceeded by Rome which broke up into the European nations. (barbarian kings -> kingdoms of Europe -> European nations of today)
You don't tell people more information then they need especially if the information is going to sound as unbelievable as... by the way there is another world on the other side. God is smart but man is not so smart.
We are all his creation but we are not all his people. Only those that do Gods will are his people. The Jews were Gods chosen people for a while because he had a special work for them to do... but they failed and so the work got past on to spiritual Israel (christians).
thank you, you just admitted god lied.
im done debating on this thread, this is just going back and forth with god contradictions and biblical errancy
So I guess that means I won because you are the one who called it off...
God did not lie. You fail to see that everything in the Bible is written by men. God does not use men as pens, he inspires them and then they write using their own words and from their own experiences. If you don't like Daniels "whole earth" then you had probably get after him since to him it was the "whole earth".
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:21 (NIV)
or
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21 (KJV)
If you don't like Daniels "whole earth" then you had probably better get after him since to him it was the "whole earth". If you can't understand that then I can understand that. Is that not what atheist/evolutionist do all the time, they take the present (evolutionary rate, culture, geological knowledge, philosophies, etc.) and try to force it on the past? And they still have not realised that you can't do that. You can't assume things and then build whole theories around those untestable assumption. That's not a science thats fantasy.
By the way, I'm not trying to... well whatever you want to stick there... I'm just stating an opinion. Have a good night.
so it was written by men who get things wrong eh? why do you believe the bible then, if its not true
If you're going to argue empires in Daniel, could you please tell me where it references the following:
The Muslim empire
The Byzantine empire
The Mongol empire
The Ottoman empire
The Chinese empires
The Japanese empire
The Russian empire
The German empire
The Spanish empire
The Aztec empire
The Inca empire
Just to mention a few...
mentioning aztecs and incas in that list is a good point, i find it a little odd that in the book of the all knowing god there is no mention of the future land of one of the most dominant empires that is america.
I think so too. Most of the christians I've talked to jump from number 3 which they consider the Roman empire straight to the British/American empire as number 4. I find this particularly insulting to the biggest empire ever to exist (the Mongol empire), and to the sequence of empires (Byzantine, Muslim, Ottoman) who actually ruled biblical lands for a combined ~1500 years. Great prophecy, not talking about any of those...
So where exactly was the unspecific part of the prophecy? The interpretation came right out of the Bible. The Bible clearly said that each metal was a kingdom except the last which was called a divided kingdom. I only gave the names of the last four kingdoms since the starting point or first kingdom was given. Are you saying that if tell you that I want you to list the four kingdoms coming after the Neo-Babylonian Empire you can't do it? Please don't admit such a thing.
I don't think you listen to a thing I say. Go reread what I wrote. And...
Please never become a historian you'd be nothing but a screw-up. Never leave the states either because you won't survive in another culture. You just refuse to look at anything through any eyes but your own.
Rev0lver... you are being moronic, you know that right? I answered this question all ready but I'll put it another way? The Bible is written about who? wht peoples?
Just so you know (so the Jews and Christians and anyone else in the world who knows a little bit about the Bible don't look at you as if you are an idiot), it is about the Jews (Old Testament) and Christians or spiritual Jews (New Testament). That being the case why and the world would the Bible talk about the Incas or Aztecs since they had no contact with Gods people? You are just not being rational now. Should I call you an irrational responder?
KSMB... please look at the answer I gave to Rev0lver, You guys are supposed to be rational responders! According to the answer I gave him.
You cannot deny that the three kingdoms to follow Neo-Babylonia which held the Jews captive where Medo-Persia/Persia, the Hellenic empires of Alexander the Great (Seleucid and Ptolemy), and finaly Rome. Rome is replaced by a divided kingdom. Clearly the Chinese Empire, Japanese Empire, etc. could not be meant since they have never occupied the lands of the former Roman Empire. As for the Muslim, Byzantine, and Ottoman Empire which did occupy lands of the former Roman Empirenone of them had much of a Christian history since Christians either fled these kingdoms or where killed off or were forced to convert. (Byzantine was basicly another part of Europe since it shrunk pretty fast under the Muslim) The bulk of the Christians after the fall of the Roman Empire lived in the Western half thus the divided kingdom is mainly the barbarian kingdoms which latter becamethe countries of modern Europe (this of course includes Spain and Germany). Note that all though many have tried to unite Europe it has not happened yet even after 1500 years. As for the European union... look how united it was about the war on Iraq.
i appreciate the comment, but i have lived in egypt for a year
you have failed to give me a legitimate response to why the bible is the truth and the word of god. that's all im looking for. go prove to me your god exists and then i will call you a rational responder.
i would say that the western hemisphere is a pretty important piece of the world and all that has happened over the past 500 years, something that involves prophecies i would expect to mention more than what they did.
I did. You called his reply moronic and engaged in various other smug insults. As for your answer, you just keep reasserting your little idea a little differently. Typical christian, imo.
In case you didn't actually understand this, I'm just a poster on these forums. The RRS is not responsible for what I say.
If you don't see for yourself how you're just making ad hoc assertions about what the bible says as you go along to fit history, then you might be blind. A prophecy about a divided kingdom? Big deal, empires and kingdoms divide and die all the time, as whoever wrote that passage surely knew. It's so vague that any part of history or part of the world can be interpreted as fulfilling the prophecy. It's no more special that if I predict that the sun will rise tomorrow. I like your ability to rant on and on though, you should get a job doing that.
The main point is that if you want to claim something is a prophecy, it has to be specific. The list of empires is there to show that there are large parts of history that you completely ignore, because it doesn't fit your "conclusion". Wow, all that and we haven't even started on all the things that Daniel gets wrong when you examine history.
You continue to pick on small points that is why your proof has not come.
North American has only been important in the last 100-200 years with the rise of the US. Prior to that it was not that important. That's 100-200 out of 2600 years, the time span of the prophecy. It's not surprising that it's not mentioned then. These days, even with the rise of the US, Europe still remains important since it contains the head of the largest Christian Church, the Catholic church. Interestingly a lot of countries recognize the Catholic church as something big since they send ambassadors to and accept them from it and the pope has an ambassador at the UN. The US even has an ambassador at the Vatican. It interesting that no other church is treated like this. It just is interesting to me that a church is not only religious but also political.
Back to the US... Revelation talks about it. Just thought you'd be interested in knowing.
Thank you for offering... it will be interesting to see how you fullfill the prophecy.