Rook, history question; looking for a starting point.

inspectormustard
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Rook, history question; looking for a starting point.

This is mostly directed to Rook, though if anyone knows where I should start looking that would be excellent.

 

I'm very interested in the symbolic history of various religions and I've been investigating whether it is possible to write a layman's historical account of the history (and thus the meaning) of the various glyphs and symbols. However, I need a place to start. I haven't the slightest clue where, in the begginning of the abrahamic religions, symbolism began to crop up. 


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inspectormustard

inspectormustard wrote:

This is mostly directed to Rook, though if anyone knows where I should start looking that would be excellent.

Sure thing. =) 

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I'm very interested in the symbolic history of various religions and I've been investigating whether it is possible to write a layman's historical account of the history (and thus the meaning) of the various glyphs and symbols. However, I need a place to start. I haven't the slightest clue where, in the begginning of the abrahamic religions, symbolism began to crop up.

I would be cautious with your quest.  The hardest thing in this sort of profession is knowing what is honest history and what is conspiracy.  You should always try to keep in mind that correlation does not equal causation, that sometimes things have similar influences but turn out to be quite opposite at times, and often symbolism is found in literature and narrative than in actual imagery.  

However, to start your quest, I would suggest a book on art criticism and art history.  The most prolific books are probably going to deal with the Hellenistic Age or the Roman period.   Although certainly the Persian period is worth looking into as well.

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Quote: I would be cautious

Quote:
I would be cautious with your quest. The hardest thing in this sort of profession is knowing what is honest history and what is conspiracy. You should always try to keep in mind that correlation does not equal causation, that sometimes things have similar influences but turn out to be quite opposite at times, and often symbolism is found in literature and narrative than in actual imagery.

Yeah. Seems like that would be the kind of thing people would avoid in peer reviewed literature, though I'm not sure how much peer review goes in in scholarly theological circles.

Quote:
However, to start your quest, I would suggest a book on art criticism and art history. The most prolific books are probably going to deal with the Hellenistic Age or the Roman period. Although certainly the Persian period is worth looking into as well.

It certainly would help to look at comparative art, although I'm not sure how much of the more simplistic designs (jesus fish!) would be covered. I think those easily drawn shapes are actually more influential than some of the more complex symbolism, acting like ancient bumper stickers advertising whichever faith.


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Imagery?

Hey inspectormustard, I would recommend "the Dictionary of Biblical Imagery" for a comprehensive collection of Biblical images that appear in the Old and New Testament.  The publisher is InterVarsity Press.  A quick explanation of the fish is as follows: it originally was a concise statement of Christian belief.  Each letter is a Greek letter which put together form the word for a fish in Greek.  The Greek rendering of the statement is Iesous Christos, Theou Uios Soter which means Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.  This code was necessary during the period of persecution under Nero and other Roman emperors who put Christians to death.  Hope that helps.

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I don't disagree, but this

I don't disagree, but this completely ignores the Pagan imagry of the fish that existed long before Christians stole it. (Or rather - integrated it into their cult)  It initially was a fertility symbol which appears on some ancient Near Eastern structures and statues, (it is a horizontal fish, but vertically it is a vagina, much like the contrasting iconic images of the phallic in Egypt and Greece) but became a symbol for pythagoreanism, the fish mythology initially came from Pythagoras who pulled the same amount of fish (157 off the top of my head?) that Jesus is portrayed to pull from the water in the Gospels. 

 There is no doubt, however, that this imagrey was useful to early Christians when combining the attributes of these other mystery images into their own in order to help those converting to be better established and feel more comfortable.  Much like the Cross/Crucifix imagry is taken from the egyptian ankh (or as the eastern church calls it, the crux ansata or "Cross with a handle&quotEye-wink, many of these books on christian art and imagry are too vague and do not give additional iconigrapgical information nor explain historical influence.

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Fish heads

No doubt there was common imagery during this period as who didn't eat fish or make symbols out of common everyday elements in the Mediterranean. It would be equivalent to us making symbols out of the golden arches of McDonalds. As far as integration, it seems like mere coincidence in regards to the symbols you mentioned as we would not expect people today to be Saturn worshippers because they drive a Saturn vehicle.  Common everyday elements would be abundant in the ancient world. The more evident images of criminals crucified in public places for all to see would leave a much more lasting impact upon early followers than distant Egyptian mythology. 

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This is not to be taken as

This is not to be taken as an insult, but that is a bit of a juvenile opinion.  We know for a fact that Jews were not only using pagan (specifically Hellenized) imagery, and reinventing traditions using Greek mythology and history, but we also have evidence of Christians doing the same things.  In catacomb art, Jesus is pictured as Orpheus-Bacchus, the original "good shephard."  He is also pictured as a Roman, wearing tunics, clean shaven, haircut, everything - specifically on sarcophigai (sp?).  Pythagoras was well known to the Essenes, who were equated by Josephus and even Philo as followers of the Pythagorean way of life.  Ironically, it was probably an Essene sect which initiated Christianity.  I find it interesting how easily some people will blow off such strong assimilation.  Especially when we have mosaics of Orpheus on Jewish Synagogues, hebrew hymns written to Orpheus, etc...  Jewish philosophers like Strabo who were hellenized... To claim that there was no direct linkage between the imagery would be to slap in the face all modern sociological and anthropological studies of the ancient Near East.

 

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symbols

Honestly its irrelevant to the issue. The nature of the symbol denies assimilation by its very meaning. No question Hellenism had a tremendous impact on Judaism.  However, what extent these pagan "symbols" actually were considered part of the orthodox faith is very suspect.  Sociologists and anthropologists are notorious for not making dinstinctions in these regards in the ANE.  To suggest a radically monotheistic religion would willy-nilly syncretistically adopt these types of images is unwarranted. It can occur in very discrete locations but this in no way suggests a widespread adoption. 

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Honestly

How can you say its irrelevant? The very idea that you would believe such a thing only shows your innability to weight the significance of something that's so detailed in showing why you are wrong. Your "feelings" behind what the word symbolism mean have nothing to do with the facts behind what we see.

[i]You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do.


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  Hi inspectormustard,

  Hi inspectormustard, maybe something here would interest you, ... did me, I'm new at this ....

The Pharmacratic Inquisition , 3.5 hrs broken into 7 segments http://www.gnosticmedia.com/DL.html --- or full length  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4555365073003895154

here's the 7 min trailer, cool music too , http://www.archive.org/details.php?identifier=GnosticMedia_Revolve_trailer

, some quick reading, The psychedelic secrets of Santa Claus http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3136.html http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/dec99.html

I don't know much ..... Surprised  freak out !


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dogg724 wrote:How can you

dogg724 wrote:
How can you say its irrelevant? The very idea that you would believe such a thing only shows your innability to weight the significance of something that's so detailed in showing why you are wrong. Your "feelings" behind what the word symbolism mean have nothing to do with the facts behind what we see.

 

The fact that I don't accept equivocation of symbols out of hand shows that I have critical thinking skills, something supposedly encouraged on this site.   I don't have "feelings" about it.  Its historical fact.  It meant exactly what I said.  Any related imagery is ancillary and less important than its actual KNOWN usage.  The guilt by association avenue of these types of conversations is getting really played out.


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Old Masters on drugs ,

   Old Masters on drugs , see the movies I sent above , fuck religion .....  fuck masters

I AM GOD , the nitty gritty, if you worship me I will kick you to the curb , cause I love you, cause if you ain't god too , you need a god smack ..... AWAKE ,  said a fun ancient ,  some call him Buddha , some big J, heavy weight atheists they where  ..... but most don't get it  .....  like most things .....  like why do we fight ?   ......  short answer is, WE ARE FUCKING STUPID.  Think maybe religion is proof of stupid ???? What the fuck isn't   G O D  ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 


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spumoni wrote:dogg724

spumoni wrote:

dogg724 wrote:
How can you say its irrelevant? The very idea that you would believe such a thing only shows your innability to weight the significance of something that's so detailed in showing why you are wrong. Your "feelings" behind what the word symbolism mean have nothing to do with the facts behind what we see.

 

The fact that I don't accept equivocation of symbols out of hand shows that I have critical thinking skills, something supposedly encouraged on this site.   I don't have "feelings" about it.  Its historical fact.  It meant exactly what I said.  Any related imagery is ancillary and less important than its actual KNOWN usage.  The guilt by association avenue of these types of conversations is getting really played out.

Equivocation or not, as long as the facts are still there to be investigated then investigate we shall. In my case I merely wish to produce a kind of dictionary of symbolism. Weighing either side and solving the contradictions is the important thing, and as a sidereal benefit I might aid in assembling a more complete picture of history through re-examining the evidence. We can only learn more by arguing, regardless of the cheese that sometimes grows on the forums.


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inspectormustard

inspectormustard wrote:

spumoni wrote:

dogg724 wrote:
How can you say its irrelevant? The very idea that you would believe such a thing only shows your innability to weight the significance of something that's so detailed in showing why you are wrong. Your "feelings" behind what the word symbolism mean have nothing to do with the facts behind what we see.

 

The fact that I don't accept equivocation of symbols out of hand shows that I have critical thinking skills, something supposedly encouraged on this site.   I don't have "feelings" about it.  Its historical fact.  It meant exactly what I said.  Any related imagery is ancillary and less important than its actual KNOWN usage.  The guilt by association avenue of these types of conversations is getting really played out.

Equivocation or not, as long as the facts are still there to be investigated then investigate we shall. In my case I merely wish to produce a kind of dictionary of symbolism. Weighing either side and solving the contradictions is the important thing, and as a sidereal benefit I might aid in assembling a more complete picture of history through re-examining the evidence. We can only learn more by arguing, regardless of the cheese that sometimes grows on the forums.

 

Sounds good brother.  I appreciate your openness to conversation.  Its a breath of fresh air compared to a lot of the conversations that happen on this site.  Have you ever checked out the Anchor bible dictionary?  It has a lot of entries from a wide spectrum of biblical scholarship and may be a good resource for looking up individual symbols etc.  I'd be interested if you find some good resources on teh subject.  Let me know how it goes.